Who is going to build the DC Fast Charging Infrastructure for long range EVs?

Dave86 · Mar 12, 2015

Back by popular demand – no one asked for it – is yet another poll.

As affordable 200+ mile EVs start to appear, lead by GM’s Bolt, there will become an increased need for DC fast charging infrastructure to enable long distance travel. Who is going to build this infrastructure?

In constructing this poll, I deliberately left out a “more than one above” option because such an option masks out who people think are most likely going to build (and pay for) DC fast charging infrastructure.

NOTE TO MODERATORS: I put this poll in this forum because its topic is of direct concern for a good percentage of Bolt buyers and lessees. I could have titled this poll “Who is going to build DC fast charging infrastructure for the Bolt”, but since in the future (10 to 25 years) all EVs will share the same infrastructure, I made the poll a little more generic.

saghost · Mar 12, 2015

I tend to think Tesla showed the way here - the manufacturer is the only one who has a vested interest in a widely distributed, high quality charging network - because it lets them sell more cars, especially if they build the cost into the car's price and can thereby advertise "free" DCFC for the life of the car.

With Tesla's business plan and first mover advantage, I believe it's going to be very hard for someone else to make a network function on any other basis - especially if Tesla delivers on a mass market car in the same time frame that others do (or even just before they have their network up and running.)

Neromanceres · Mar 12, 2015

In some sense I would argue Tesla had to do it this way. They have no choice because they have decided to create a unique charging standard.

The majority of the automotive world has signed on with the SAE CCS. And while this charging standard is in it's infancy and there are currently very few cars in production that use this standard that is going to change rapidly over the next few years. I see the SAE CCS easily surpassing the Tesla network in the next couple of years.

CHAdeMO is currently the biggest installed DC charging network. And this is mostly because of a few early auto makers (Nissan, Mitsubishi). But I don't know how long they can hold out in this small group.

The SAE J1772 standard (while fairly old) didn't really get any traction until the 2009 version of the standard was released. Now in ~5 years look how many L2 SAE stations exist. While some of these did come from government incentives a large number did not. I foresee a similar thing happening with SAE CCS over the next few years.

Billtphotoman · Mar 12, 2015

I voted stores and restaurants because I think it will actually be gas stations and restaraunts along highways who will do it either to directly charge for use or use it to attract diners. But, sadly I think we are a decade or more away from that unless gas prices really soar.

hvacman · Mar 12, 2015

I voted "oil companies" because I think many will end up at the truck stops and travel centers along the freeways and major highways. Smaller FCDC charge station installations will be a bit more challenging, as AM-PM's aren't where you want to hang out for 30-40 minutes. Many of these facilities are owned or controlled by the major oil companies. It only makes sense that the vehicle refueling/snack/dining model would continue on with long range EV's being another market to tap.

We're not talking hours for FCDC - just 30-40 minutes tops. Dealerships - no way. Not open 24/7, frequently not convenient to out-of-town traffic, and who wants to hang out for even 10 minutes at a dealership?

saghost · Mar 12, 2015

hvacman said:
I voted "oil companies" because I think many will end up at the truck stops and travel centers along the freeways and major highways.

This makes sense - I could easily see a Pilot travel center (or equivalent) adding a row of DCFC stations on the side and either charging what it costs them or even subsidizing the charging a little bit, making their profit on the food and things bought by the travelers that stop to charge.

I think there are large stretches of highway where there isn't a suitable travel center every hundred miles, but it'd be a start.

tccartier · Mar 12, 2015

I've seen this question posed many times across many articles. The answer is when EV's begin to show up in numbers significant enough for there to be "money" to be made in expanding the infrastructure, That's when the build out will accelerate. As to who will fund the expansion? it will likely be a mix of the above suspects (with the likely exception of government) at a feverish pace, each trying to gain the largest revenue generating footprint.

This is no different than gas station proliferation. The gas powered cars began appearing in such numbers that it became cash flow positive to service the need creating a whole new market. Gasoline cars were at the time a disruptive technology, much like current EV's are likely to become, or already are as viewed by many, myself included.

jsmay311 · Mar 12, 2015

There's no way installing DCFC stations will be a profitable venture. So entrepreneurs and oil companies are out. Utilities are probably out too.

In my view, the most likely path forward is a collaboration between multiple car companies, possibly taking advantage of governments incentives.

If Tesla can build out its Supercharger network to a rather impressive degree all by itself in just a few years, then GM+BMW+Ford+whoever else should be able to install a network of industry standard DCFC stations in a similar fashion. However, this assumes that they're actually committed to making "200-mile" EV's work in the marketplace.

tccartier · Mar 13, 2015

jsmay311 said:
There's no way installing DCFC stations will be a profitable venture. So entrepreneurs and oil companies are out. Utilities are probably out too.

Perhaps not in the near future or even several years, But to say they will "NEVER" be profitable? I don't agree. Remember as stations are needed they too will cross a tipping point when economies of scale begin to kick in as the need to have them rises their numbers will increase and their cost is likely to begin to fall as with all "new" technologies or devices hitting the market

In my view, the most likely path forward is a collaboration between multiple car companies, possibly taking advantage of governments incentives.

The Car Manufacturers were not responsible for nor did they finance the build out of the gasoline distribution network as it exists today. They merely built a product that spurred the development of it. This is likely what we will see with EVSE stations once the threshold or tipping point of need makes the investment in charging stations viable or such that it can become cash flow positive in some way over some period of time to the installer.

If Tesla can build out its Supercharger network to a rather impressive degree all by itself in just a few years, then GM+BMW+Ford+whoever else should be able to install a network of industry standard DCFC stations in a similar fashion. However, this assumes that they're actually committed to making "200-mile" EV's work in the marketplace.

I still do not believe they will be inclined to do so nor will they likely need to. Auto manufacturers are not in the business of supplying fueling infrastructure and if they were the incurred costs would need to be frontloaded into the prices of the EV's they sell. Higher EV prices place downward pressure on their uptake in the market "less sales" negating the need for additional infrastructure to be built quickly potentially slowing down the entire adoption process. It's the Chicken or the Egg "you pick".

Zythryn · Mar 12, 2015

I really am not sure who will be the primary builder in ten years.
Tesla has a few advantages which I would like to see others adopt.
One of these is a nationwide placement plan.

If DC chargers are built by private businesses, dealerships, state/county/city governments, you won't get a useful long ditance DC charging network for quite some time.

The simplicity of a network which does not require payment "at the pump" has lots of advantages and will speed adoption. Nissan's attempt at a single system to allow charging is a good example of what a disaster multiple vendors can be to convenience.

As for the largest DC charging system, by amount of power charged, it is currently Tesla's system and by number of chargers in the US, that is led by Tesla with the CHAdeMO network in second place.

While CHAdeMO and Tesla's network are close in size, even if a 200 mile Leaf existed today, it could not use the 900 or so CHAdeMO chargers to get coast to coast.

realdb2 · Mar 13, 2015

Tesla has done an excellent job with their network but i don't see other manufacturers having the vision/incentive/foresight to copy them.

I think the most likely solution is gas stations. All it would take is one or two large gas station chains to implement a network of DC fast chargers and the whole country would be covered. Charging would be another way for store owners to attract customers to purchase all of the stuff they make money on (food, beverages, convenience items). That being said I don't think they will do it until plug in vehicles numbers are much, much higher and the cost of implementation is lower.

Power companies sounds logical since they would have the resources to do it but I just don't see them being able to make enough money selling electricity when people will do most of their charging at home.

tccartier · Mar 13, 2015

It does seem that utilities "power companies" specifically and to a somewhat lesser degree "oil companies" are the two entities that have a somewhat vested interest in fueling EV's when they reach sufficient numbers to warrant the effort. What seems clear though is that it will perhaps not happen as fast as I for one would like to see it do so. But history being the guide when there are many millions of EV's on the road if they ever reach those numbers the chargers will get built by some entity or entities in the quantity needed.

A collaboration between Power Companies and Big Oil would make likely bedfellows. The Oil companies already have the national footprint and the Power Companies already have them wired lol!!

Advancement in battery tech will probably get better as well perhaps enabling even longer range EV's with even shorter charge times. We can only hope!

sinnombre · Mar 13, 2015

Initially it will probably need to be done by the automakers . Especially BMW , GM , Ford , Nissan and Tesla . I think they should try to partner with Walmart , Costco , Target and other big box places where people frequently park their cars for 45 minutes at a time . It makes much less sense placing DC chargers where people don't have another reason to park .

BAZINGA · Mar 13, 2015

Then I sure hope HOOTERS has a plan......

SharkVolt · Mar 13, 2015

I think Tesla, by advertising their DC charging capability, and building their charging network, have created an artificial demand, in some people's minds, for fast DC charging a BEV to take long trips.

The vast majority of travelers don't travel that way now, and I bet they wouldn't care to in the near future either. I think BEV vehicles will remain largely city cars for the near future, until BEV ranges are more in the 400-500 mile range. When you can travel for at least four hours and still have a comfortable safety margin, even in bad conditions, then BEVS can and will easily replace ICE cars for the majority of long trips.

And that kind of range will gradually happen over the next decade or two. But I think only Tesla will create their own charging network, because no one knows what other options may still become available, and it is still quite possible that BEVS will never become a popular mode for long distance travel.

No automaker has every been involved with fuel stations, fuel supply, or even the oil business, as far as I know, and the chances any of them would get involved on a completely new, expensive, iffy charging stations, are slim and none. Only the government, in its "infinite wisdom" would even consider doing so, and have the deep pocketbooks (OURS). to do so.

I think when all the hoopla shakes out, only the Voltec technology and copies of it, will be a reasonable choice for long distance travel for the near future. I agree however, that the SAE standard will be the one supported by the rest of the manufacturers eventually, and if Tesla wants to remain viable, they will have to adapt their current network to supply the other prevailing standard, no matter what standard that is, otherwise, they will become the "Betamax" of charging.

Zythryn · Mar 13, 2015

SharkVolt said:
... I agree however, that the SAE standard will be the one supported by the rest of the manufacturers eventually, and if Tesla wants to remain viable, they will have to adapt their current network to supply the other prevailing standard, no matter what standard that is, otherwise, they will become the "Betamax" of charging.

That is certainly possible, however, I hope not.
The Tesla DC charging system is superior to the other standards. For 80 mile BEVs SAE works fine, for 200 or greater ranges Tesla's system currently is the fastest charging, best planned out network. Any other company that wants to, can get in on the deal.
It is also the most convenient to use for consumers, and frankly, the most elegant looking one.

Keith Myers · Mar 13, 2015

I voted the same. I think the oil company affiliated travel centers with food and shower facilities, think "truck stop" here..... are the natural evolution for fast charge, D.C. charging for 30-60 minute stops while long distance traveling. After all.... they have to recover sales from the loss of gasoline and diesel sales some way. It's inevitable that we will electrify the motor vehicle constellation of the last 100 years.

Keith

Zythryn · Mar 13, 2015

Question for the OP...
Since the DC charging network is already being built by a mix of all of the above, what exactly do you mean?
Who will be the main contributor at a certain date?
Who will build the best network? And as a follow up, how would you define "best"?
Who builds the most sustainable network from a business standpoint?
Etc

Dave86 · Mar 13, 2015

Okay... good questions... let's see what we can do with them...

Zythryn said:
Since the DC charging network is already being built by a mix of all of the above, what exactly do you mean?

If I would have constructed the poll with "More than one of the above" as an option, then it would have been extremely difficult to interpret what people's "More than one of the above" votes represent. For example, it could mean "oil companies, utilities, and government" for one person, and "utilities and car companies" for another. My guess is that a good majority of people would have voted "More than one of the above".

So perhaps I should have titled the poll "Who do you think will be the dominant player in building infrastructure for long range electric cars?".

Too bad polls at gm-volt.com won't allow us to split our vote between more than one option.

Zythryn said:
Who will be the main contributor at a certain date?

I more or less deliberately left it vague as to when & who will build the infrastructure. For example, car companies and utilities could build the infrastructure in the short term, and utilities take over in the long term. To handle the short term and long term differences would require building two polls in two different threads, not just one we have, and I don't know what the interest level from readers here at gm-volt is for doing that. Two threads would split up discussion instead of keeping it all in one place.

Zythryn said:
Who will build the best network? And as a follow up, how would you define "best"?
Who builds the most sustainable network from a business standpoint?
Etc

Sheesh, I don't know. Why don't you write up what you think and post it?

From my standpoint, I'm getting exactly what I want out of this poll & thread. I want to see what others think about where the needed infrastructure is going come from, and read all the discussion that goes with it. Here at gm-volt.com we have a lot of very bright, knowledgeable posters with a lot of different viewpoints on vehicle electrification and this poll is one way of getting them to share their thoughts one aspect of it.

Dave

DonC · Mar 13, 2015

In three or four years the utilities in CA will have a charging network that dwarfs anything any single or consortium of car companies can do. The utilities have both the resources and the incentive. Electrical demand is dropping very fast and electric cars are about the only possible source of revenue growth going forward. They are also the only ones with the right of eminent domain so they can put the stations more or less any where they want.

I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head but each utility is talking about tens of thousands of chargers. Way beyond anything we've seen so far.

Assuming of course that the PUC goes along, which so far it is doing.

srmarti · Mar 13, 2015

I don't know and am not going to guess.

Loboc · Mar 13, 2015

I picked entrepreneurs. It will take vision to get over the chick-egg conundrum.

A company with deep pockets (Apple) could come out of nowhere and build infrastructure using collaborative deals with everyone. Malls, travel centers, restaurants, grocery stores, Apple stores, your garage, places-where-people-stop-for-an-hour. With Apple pay, Apple iCars (rental model) and Apple charging stations being the revenue stream. Autonomous iCars would allow anyone (not just licensed drivers) to use these services. Apple-enabled GM, Ford, Toyota, etc cars could participate. These stations would probably be wireless since that's way cooler.

I don't see people going to nasty gas stations to accomplish their driving needs. That whole 'fueling station' model will be ancient history.

Neromanceres · Mar 13, 2015

Loboc said:
I picked entrepreneurs. It will take vision to get over the chick-egg conundrum.

In the future I envisioned charging cafes/restaurants. They would have several DCFC's and L2 stations. DCFC would be like $0.20/min (for a 50KW station in Ontario Canada) [probably $0.40/min in areas like California]. L2 could be free with a purchase of $10 or more at the cafe/restaurant.

Raymondjram · Mar 13, 2015

I chose utilities, because they can compete against oil companies, and have the most to gain with BEVs. Locally our utility PREPA has installed free Level 1 J1772 charging stations at public parking spaces in our government buildings, and at their main offices in San Juan. And the only auto company that supported it was Nissan. Yet I have not seen any Leafs on our roads or at any of those charging stations. Unless more BEVs are sold, I don't see any private company putting up their own charginh stations (Level 1 or 2) or even a fast DC charger anywhere here in Puerto Rico unless that company also sells BEVs, as for the two BMW sites (and posted on PlugShare) which sells the i3.

Shivetya · Mar 13, 2015

Oil companies are in the best position to capitalize on this and really should act. Utilities and manufacturers have to go and secure land which is not going to be easy in many cities and may not be in ideal locations.

Honestly, I would prefer gas stations to get into this because many are owned by independent operators and we need to keep these small businessmen around.

tccartier · Mar 13, 2015

A Oil / Utilities partnership makes sense as the Oil industry already has the footprint in existing "gas stations" and Utilities are already providing power to all those gas stations.

On another note, I believe Utilities have eminent domain and can land grab as needed for infrastructure installations. So the Land acquisition problem is not one seen by utilities.

telveer · Mar 13, 2015

I think this has to be a joint effort by car manufacturers/industry (standards), utilities (infrastructure), service providers (gas stations, shopping malls, etc), charging networks (chargepoint, nrg, etc), and Govt (incentives/governance)

bro1999 · Mar 13, 2015

In MD, the state is helping build out its DCQC fast charging network (with a big assist from the $1 million collected from the American Electric Power Service Corp., which violated the Clean Air Act). 26 sites will be built across MD (well, except for Western MD) by the end of 2016....just in time for the Bolt!

boraski · Mar 13, 2015

Oil companies have the most to lose. They already have a cash cow and electrification threatens their cash cow, therefore they will systematically be challenged to pivot to electric power and speed the demise of their cash cow.

Utilities have the most to gain, and they are in a better position to control the installation and maintenance of infrastructure. Therefore, I think it's likely utilities will be the dominant players in the long run.

Gas stations are typically placed in locations with the intention that you will fill up in 5 minutes and leave quickly to go somewhere else. If some new technologies make 5 minute charging possible, then they might end up being good locations for charging.

As things stand now, where you need 30-60 minutes to DC fast charge, most gas stations are not good locations. The majority of DC fast charging for now should be placed in locations where other shopping and restaurants are in walking distance.

Level 2 charging definitely needs to be placed in locations where there are other things to do. Destinations where you will go for a few hours like movie theaters, concert halls, malls, libraries, churches, and medium-sized towns which are shopping/restaurant/community hubs are all great places. Parking lots for getting mass transit to cities and park-and-ride lots are also good candidates for them. Inside cities are great too, at parking garages, and there are many of those in major cities already, but there needs to be a lot more of them in more suburban destinations.

It would also be great if the government would mandate (and/or offer an installation/usage tax credit) for employers to install a certain amount of chargers for their employees in their parking lots. 1 or 2 per 100 employees would be a start, and that can ramp up over time. When employees see unused chargers and work out how much money they could save it will encourage electric car purchases. Also, it will allow more BEV vehicles to be purchased by people that commute more than 40 or 50 miles a day. Until a critical mass of companies have chargers at the ready, it's risky for BEV buyers who would rely on them because right now if they change jobs they might also need to change their vehicle.

sinnombre · Mar 15, 2015

boraski said:
Oil companies have the most to lose. They already have a cash cow and electrification threatens their cash cow, therefore they will systematically be challenged to pivot to electric power and speed the demise of their cash cow.

Not necessarily a threat . They can coexist independently or work together .

boraski said:
Gas stations are typically placed in locations with the intention that you will fill up in 5 minutes and leave quickly to go somewhere else. If some new technologies make 5 minute charging possible, then they might end up being good locations for charging.

As things stand now, where you need 30-60 minutes to DC fast charge, most gas stations are not good locations. The majority of DC fast charging for now should be placed in locations where other shopping and restaurants are in walking distance.

Yup , bad idea to mix ev charging and gas stations.

boraski said:
Level 2 charging definitely needs to be placed in locations where there are other things to do. Destinations where you will go for a few hours like movie theaters, concert halls, malls, libraries, churches, and medium-sized towns which are shopping/restaurant/community hubs are all great places. Parking lots for getting mass transit to cities and park-and-ride lots are also good candidates for them. Inside cities are great too, at parking garages, and there are many of those in major cities already, but there needs to be a lot more of them in more suburban destinations.

Actually , Level 2 charging should be phased out or limited to places where people would normally want to park their car for 6 hours at a time . Places like Hotels , camp grounds or parks and beaches .

boraski said:
It would also be great if the government would mandate (and/or offer an installation/usage tax credit) for employers to install a certain amount of chargers for their employees in their parking lots. 1 or 2 per 100 employees would be a start, and that can ramp up over time. When employees see unused chargers and work out how much money they could save it will encourage electric car purchases. Also, it will allow more BEV vehicles to be purchased by people that commute more than 40 or 50 miles a day. Until a critical mass of companies have chargers at the ready, it's risky for BEV buyers who would rely on them because right now if they change jobs they might also need to change their vehicle.

I totally disagree with employer provided fuel stations . Its the wrong path for the future . People can charge at home or stop at the local grocery store for a quick dc charge on the way home.

ItsNotAboutTheMoney · Mar 13, 2015

It'll be private companies, with government ponying up cash to support their manufacturers, up until electrics look like they'll be really successful, at which point utilities will take over, as they give government some friendly terms to create a ubiquitous infrastructure for home and OTR charging and they'll use stalling tactics to hurt the competition. Using their extra income, they'll support front groups lobbying for bans on conventional dirty vehicles. Fortunately, renewables and cheap batteries will keep a lid on prices and the world will become a quieter, cleaner, more awesome place.

So, manufacturers and government for a while until utilities take over.

Who is going to build the DC Fast Charging Infrastructure?

Government

Utilities

Oil Companies

Car Companies

Entrepreneurs

Car Dealerships

Stores, Shopping Malls & Restaurants

None of the above

Who is going to build the DC Fast Charging Infrastructure for long range EVs?

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