EV Invasion! It's here and there aren't enough outlets!

[Statik]

Wouldn't the car alarms be going off if people tried to unplug while plugged in? No one is going to leave their cars unlock.

LEAF doesn't to anything, other than a little beep and some clicking, you'd have to lock it manually if you were worried about it. Also a none event in the Volt if you pull the plug at the receptacle (which makes sense for situations for this), but really annoying to pull the other end from the car however, Im guessing most function that off.

Your opinion is justified and a good one for all Volt owners to recognize. Glad to hear from you, Statik.

Thanks Mr. Riley. I have been pretty scarce around these parts lately (last year and a half), but I am working on cutting out a little piece of my day to check in and around the interwebs...I someday hope to break the magical 60 posts on the forum, heeh.

[volt3939]

You didn't show the AVCON station in your pics, but that's what I would have plugged into. Check out ebay item #260862677015 for an example of what I use. Mine has the 14-50 socket AND a J1772 pigtail so if I can get close I only need the box. For situations where the parking spots are full, I have a 14-50 to J1772 cable made up that is about 20 feet long. (The 14-50 has a common pin that, while unused for common, feeds the pilot signal to the J1772.)

An AVCON station can be upgraded with a J1772 connector in place of the claw (it is the same J1772 protocol), or replaced entirely. There is a grant program that will pay for the replacement, from the CPUC, IIRC.

I agree that a BEV should have priority over an EREV, but first come, first served also applies. A good 240V AVCON can completely fill a Volt in 4 hours, so I like the clock on the plug idea. It would be better to just come back and move your car as soon as it's got enough range to get you where you need to go.

[Joule Thief]

If you haven't yet, check out http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread....4646#post54646 . It's a thread that discusses cards like that.

Thanks, I checked out that thread and based on that I've come up with my own "EV Courtesy Card" attached here. I'm definitely open to inputs/feedback. Also others can feel free to use it if they wish. It will print out to 2"x3" when folded in half and can easily be laminated into the size of a standard badge. I'm going to zip tie this near the recepticle plug on my EVSE.

Wouldn't the car alarms be going off if people tried to unplug while plugged in? No one is going to leave their cars unlock.

As others have already commented, I would be giving permission to unplug my vehicle from the wall recepticle, not the vehicle connector so it would be just like a power outage to the EVSE. My courtesy card clearly indicates this to prevent the alarm from going off. Also, in my situation, I often have to park my car and then ride my Montague folding bike to another building I work in about 2miles down the road. So it's not easy for me to simply go outside and unplug/move my car. Therefore I'd like to give the other EV owners the option to unplug without my being there.

Thanks for all the great inputs!

[voltage692]

Public charging just needs to be banned before it even starts. It's not going to work, so why get our hopes up.

Case in point.

[DonC]

I'm sure this isn't a terribly popular opinion, but the fact is that I definitely dont 'need' that power in the Volt, and although it might cost me an extra buck or so to not top up the Volt, my desire for (and to promote) electric cars (BEVs) is greater than my personal convienence.

Seems like bad public policy. If the goal is not to burn gas, and the Leaf can't burn gas, then it's better to allow the Volt to opportunity charge since that decreases the amount of gas consumed. In your example it would be better for me to go 60 EV miles and have you not be able to drive downtown than it would be for me to drive 40 EV miles and 20 gas miles and for you to drive downtown. Surely you'd be willing to make that sacrifice in order to further the larger goal, right?

Basically you can come up with a reason for just about anything. Most Leafs won't need to charge, they'd just be after some free electrons. Ditto for the Volts. But trying to figure out who has the greatest need and then apportioning charging on that basis is something Marx and Lenin would have approved of. It's also a waste of time. The only realistic way public charging will work is if people have to pay to charge. You know, the free market approach. Those how have the greatest "need" will get their needs fulfilled. Those just out for free who don't need to charge won't bother. Failing that I agree with voltage692 that best we ban it and move on.

[Statik]

Seems like bad public policy. If the goal is not to burn gas, and the Leaf can't burn gas, then it's better to allow the Volt to opportunity charge since that decreases the amount of gas consumed. In your example it would be better for me to go 60 EV miles and have you not be able to drive downtown than it would be for me to drive 40 EV miles and 20 gas miles and for you to drive downtown. Surely you'd be willing to make that sacrifice in order to further the larger goal, right?

Basically you can come up with a reason for just about anything. Most Leafs won't need to charge, they'd just be after some free electrons. Ditto for the Volts. But trying to figure out who has the greatest need and then apportioning charging on that basis is something Marx and Lenin would have approved of. It's also a waste of time. The only realistic way public charging will work is if people have to pay to charge. You know, the free market approach. Those how have the greatest "need" will get their needs fulfilled. Those just out for free who don't need to charge won't bother. Failing that I agree with voltage692 that best we ban it and move on.

Personally, I think the whole public infrastructure thing is pretty retarded as well. I believe people buy the car that is best for them to manage on their own...not factoring in whether or not there happens to be a maybe available, free, public charging spot for them to park at. Once the 'fad' is done, most public spots are going to be pay-as-you-go, and at 5+ times the normal electric rate.
---
I do see what you are saying about the Volt and using gas, and I understand that if free electricity is available you want to park your Volt in there and don't want to feel 2nd class to a BEV, I get that. However, there is a greater issue coming to those couple charging spaces in a parking lot of 200, than the LEAF and a handful of Teslas/i-MiEVs...and its the Plug-In Prius (which will probably sell more than the LEAF/Volt at some point), and then all the rest of the fully electric cars, extended range cars, and plug-in hybrids past that.

By your logic, as the Volt is more worthy than a BEV, then the PIP is more worthy than the Volt, and past that, plug-in hybrid trucks and vans even moreso (as they will displace even more gas than the PIP)...and there is going to be zillions of them. You can see how this line of thinking has some problems, the end game is that only heavy equipment (buses, trucks, etc) get to use 'public' stations.

Current estimates, put the rate of 'plug-ins' sold at about 400,000 out of 6 million new passenger vehicles by mid 2013 (and up from there). So if you don't discern the difference between A) BEVs B) EREVs and C) hybrids, then you have a totally underwater public electric infrastructure within only a very few months, because your not going to have parking lots with 30-40 electric spaces for every 300 spots to handle the peak volume...it is still going to be the same one or two spots per location.

Your odds of getting any car in a spot is going to be remote unless you come really early...which makes their functionality/value pretty much useless if you cant count on them being there. A novelty at best.

I think this thread really does put a light on why public charging is a totally absurd proposition. Even if you are just limiting spots to BEVS, it is still not going to work. If Joule Thief is already having trouble with 6 cars wanting 4 spots now, with only a few thousand plug-ins sold nationwide so far, he (and everyone else) might as well just forget about counting on a plug anywhere in a year or two's time...unless of course it is a dedicated one with your name on it. That I understand.

[Joule Thief]

Okay, so I attached my "EV Courtesey Card" (see my last post in this thread) and it actually worked! Today at work I went out to unplug at the end of my charge and a Leaf owner showed up at the exact time I had indicated to take over the outlet. See pics below.

This discussion has broadened, so I'll throw in my opinion. First I do think public charging can work, but it won't always be a great system. Also, I think charging at work is far more valuable to most people where you leave your car for several hours than short charging at public places like malls, etc. I personally don't think I would bother myself with 1 or 2hr charges in public places, especially if it's only a L1 charge, why bother? But at work it's a great perk for employees and looks good for the company as a "Green Corp Citizen". Unfortunately when I spoke with the Leaf owner today, he indicated my employer will not be installing additional outlets/EVSEs and is likely to remove all of the existing infrastructure

As far as vehicle priority is concerned if it's a pay-for-use charger then as long as you're using it and paying then you get the spot, simple as that. So it's only really an issue when the charge is free, in which case I think it has to be first-come first-served and hopefully most EV drivers will be courteous to one-another and not take a parking spot and/or charger when they don't need it.

After giving it some thought, I don't think a PHEV (i.e. Volt or PIP) should have lower priority than a BEV (i.e. Leaf). Sure the PHEV can run on gas, but I could counter-argue that the Leaf also gets twice the range of the Volt and assuming both drivers drive about the same distance then the Leaf would have more battery range left. And what if the Volt is low or out of gas? Also, how much range does the driver need for their next trip? Maybe less than 10 miles? In my case, my work commute is 45 miles each way so I can benefit from a full charge. So if, for example, a Leaf had 50 miles of battery range left and the Volt had only 10 miles of battery range and 20 miles of gas range and the Leaf only had to drive 8 miles and the Volt had to drive 35 miles, then one could argue the Volt would have a greater need (of course not taking into account the Volt could easily hit a gas station to fill up). My point is you can't simply make a blanket statement that BEVs should always get priority of PHEVs. In fact, the Leaf owner I spoke with today even admitted he didn't "need" to charge, it was just a convenience for him and if the outlets were all taken, no big deal. But if I hadn't spoken to him and just assumed he always had a greater need than me I would have been mistaken.

The bottom line is you can't make a decision on vehicle priority unless you know 2 facts: 1) what is the range the driver needs to go on their next trip and 2) what is the current total range available in their EV which would include both battery SOC and gas. And since only the EV owner would know both pieces of information, another EV owner can't ever determine if they have a greater need/priority. So instead we are back to the EV owners being courteous and only charging when they need for as long as they need and then allowing another EV to take the spot. Hence my courtesy card

[DonC]

Personally, I think the whole public infrastructure thing is pretty retarded as well. I believe people buy the car that is best for them to manage on their own...not factoring in whether or not there happens to be a maybe available, free, public charging spot for them to park at. Once the 'fad' is done, most public spots are going to be pay-as-you-go, and at 5+ times the normal electric rate.

It all comes down to a couple of points. One is that you can never provide enough of a free good or service. Second is that you can make an argument for any number of different cars having the most "need", depending on the situation. Paying for the charge, whether it's 5x the home cost or 1.1x the home cost, simply ensures that those who are willing to pay the costs get the charge they need. Personally if I needed a charge for the Volt I'd pay for it but if I didn't need a charge for the Leaf I wouldn't. And of course vice versa. In this sense it's very much like a time of day rate schedule.

I don't think there is anyway we're going to see 400,000 plug-ins by 2013. I'd love to be wrong but I don't know where they'd come from. 45K Volts. 45K Leafs. After that it's going to drop off.

[jomo25]

Joule, great card. I'm going to borrow the design for my use.