GM Volt and Nissan Leaf Wage Gas=Electric War- From Detroit Free Press

[Paul Slazas]

From July 7th Detroit Free Press
GM Volt and Nissan Leaf Wage Gas-Electric War

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2011107070472

Paul S
Red Volt#2169 - 104 Lifetime Mpg

[Steverino]

Wow, some real haters of American car companies (GM particularly) and EV's in general, barfing up the same old opinions-as-fact reasons for their hate.

[Raymondjram]

When gas prices rise again, then those "haters" will think it over about the Volt and ask, "where can I buy one?".

[Xzlon]

The best arguing statement to compare the Volt/Leaf comes from MT.

The on-board gasoline equivalent (gas+charge) capacity for the cars:
Prius = 12 gallons
Volt = 10.8 gallons
Leaf = 2 gallons.

Completely rules out Leaf for where I live.

[voltage692]

And that's only half the argument.

When you want to refill that 2 gallons equivalent on the Leaf, that takes 10 hours and you are very limited where you can do that refill. With the Prius and the Volt, you fill up in 5 minutes at every street corner.

So, it's not just distance, but time is equally important.

The leaf is truly nothing new. What's new about it? Nothing. It's been done before over and over, and it hasn't worked in the last 100 years. Hey everyone -- the charging stations are not coming.

Here's everything you need to know about the future of electric cars: Oil isn't running out tomorrow, oil will go up in price, oil will go down in price, rinse and repeat, the Leaf will go away, and the Volt will stay.

The best arguing statement to compare the Volt/Leaf comes from MT.

The on-board gasoline equivalent (gas+charge) capacity for the cars:
Prius = 12 gallons
Volt = 10.8 gallons
Leaf = 2 gallons.

Completely rules out Leaf for where I live.

[mmalc]

And that's only half the argument.
When you want to refill that 2 gallons equivalent on the Leaf, that takes 10 hours and you are very limited where you can do that refill. With the Prius and the Volt, you fill up in 5 minutes at every street corner.
So, it's not just distance, but time is equally important.
The leaf is truly nothing new. What's new about it? Nothing. It's been done before over and over, and it hasn't worked in the last 100 years. Hey everyone -- the charging stations are not coming.
Here's everything you need to know about the future of electric cars: Oil isn't running out tomorrow, oil will go up in price, oil will go down in price, rinse and repeat, the Leaf will go away, and the Volt will stay.

Utter bollocks.

I actually see more LEAFs than Volts on the road where I am, and I'm perfectly happy.

The LEAF is something new; it's the first serious mainstream electric vehicle. Yes, it certainly has its flaws, and in particular I'm concerned that Nissan has oversold the range and compounded the issues by providing a less-than-good range estimator, but for a non-trivial niche the LEAF is a great solution to a significant problem.

Whether or not oil runs out is not the issue. The issue is we want to use less of it, for whatever reason. (And whatever your political or environmental persuasion, if you can't see that not sending billions of dollars a year overseas to support our habit is a bad idea, there is little hope.) Advocating a future that is reliant on oil is simply insane.

In some areas at least, charging stations are coming. More slowly than probably any of us would like, but for the LEAF's niche it doesn't matter much anyway. Those I know who have one commute every day, charging up every night and the absence of charging stations doesn't bother them. One of the ironies of this forum is the number of contributors excited by the fact that they haven't used any petrol at all -- in terms strictly of mobility, the LEAF would probably have served them just fine.

I look forward to a future in which we rapidly recharge our vehicles when needed from widely-available stations and
look back on our experiment with internal combustion engines as a bizarre aberration.

[voltage692]

you are wrong.

Utter bollocks.

I actually see more LEAFs than Volts on the road where I am, and I'm perfectly happy.

The LEAF is something new; it's the first serious mainstream electric vehicle. Yes, it certainly has its flaws, and in particular I'm concerned that Nissan has oversold the range and compounded the issues by providing a less-than-good range estimator, but for a non-trivial niche the LEAF is a great solution to a significant problem.

Whether or not oil runs out is not the issue. The issue is we want to use less of it, for whatever reason. (And whatever your political or environmental persuasion, if you can't see that not sending billions of dollars a year overseas to support our habit is a bad idea, there is little hope.) Advocating a future that is reliant on oil is simply insane.

In some areas at least, charging stations are coming. More slowly than probably any of us would like, but for the LEAF's niche it doesn't matter much anyway. Those I know who have one commute every day, charging up every night and the absence of charging stations doesn't bother them. One of the ironies of this forum is the number of contributors excited by the fact that they haven't used any petrol at all -- in terms strictly of mobility, the LEAF would probably have served them just fine.

I look forward to a future in which we rapidly recharge our vehicles when needed from widely-available stations and
look back on our experiment with internal combustion engines as a bizarre aberration.

[mmalc]

you are wrong.

Oh, gosh, it's been a long time. I'm not sure if I can remember how to debate like this.
Hmm, perhaps if I watch some vintage television programmes on Netflix that'll help.
Yes!

"And you smell of poo!"

[2BeLivingGreen]

I do not think that the focus of the media, auto journals, etc should pit the Leaf vs. the VOLT. They are different cars with different user strategies etc. There are situations where a Leaf may work well for a person. The VOLT happens to work better for me in that I drive mostly EV miles but will use gas if need be. So the diversity of people's driving lifestlye, location, stiuation is never going to claim an absolute "winner" so to speak. The real answer is that VOLT or Leaf makes for a vision that extends past the hybrid mode. It makes for driving to be very economical, makes us less reliant on foreign oil, and helps to promote people to rethink their transportation lifestyle needs. In my mind, the battery technology advances that enable the VOLT and Leaf to exist will become the giant leap for mankind.

[mmalc]

I do not think that the focus of the media, auto journals, etc should pit the Leaf vs. the VOLT. They are different cars with different user strategies etc. [...]

Indeed, generally much agreed.

Where we perhaps differ is that I hope that we will see the demise of the hybrid, at least in its current incarnation.

I think the Volt is a compromise. A brilliantly engineered compromise that's an essential step in our journey (and that helps get over at least one chicken and egg problem), and I'm extremely happy with mine, but ultimately I don't want to have that oil-based ICE. (And, paradoxically given some of the commentary here and in the iMIEV thread, it seems that most others would actually prefer not as well.) I'd rather have a battery that can take me over 300 miles and a way to fully charge it in a reasonable length of time (less than an hour) -- or to quickly replace the battery. The Tesla S looks set to be about half way there, which is encouraging.

It may be that there will be other solutions to the energy storage problem, but pinning your hopes on availability of oil ad infinitum is environmental and economic madness.