Senate again trying to raise price of gasoline.

[Jason M. Hendler]

The lunacy never ends:

Link

The government cannot set prices for a commodity (without violating property rights, causing shortages, etc.), so ANY tax increase by ANY name will be passed through to the consumer.

[Joshua Bretz]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/28/op...prod=permalink

[Jason M. Hendler]

I am stunned by anyone begging for more taxes - of course, he adds the caveat that "the poor", who make $79,000 or less per year, get an income tax deducation - more progressive taxation to punish wealth creators and reward wealth consumers.

You needn't fool with any tax system at this point. Energy prices are high enough that any / all renewables are feasible. Now, it's just a matter of time for those alternatives to become widely available.

[firebirdbandit]

Raise gas prices as high as you can. I support high gas prices. Eventually we will stop buying it. The higher gas goes the more affordable the United State's own high technology becomes.

[Tom]

Joshua,

I agree we need to maintain the $4.00 cost of gas. But every gallon we take out of the ground is one less gallon for the coming genertions. We shouldn't reward people with a refund for buying gas. That's the wrong message. The excess money should be used for efficient alternative energy research or a subsidy for "zero oil" vehicles like E-REVs.

We could start by drafting a letter from this forum. Something that is based on a consensus. Can we get a consensus with guys like JMH? What do you guys think about this idea?

[Guy Incognito]

... more progressive taxation to punish wealth creators and reward wealth consumers

Jason, I'm not sure I understand what the difference between a 'wealth creator' and a 'wealth consumer' is, could you explain it to me?
If my question seems stupid, then I apologize in advance; I can be quite dense at times.

[Jason M. Hendler]

Jason, I'm not sure I understand what the difference between a wealth creator and a wealth consumer is, could you explain it to me?
If my question seems stupid, then I apologize in advance; I can be quite dense at times.

A wealth creator is someone whose productivity generates real wealth, real value - water, energy, agriculture / food, housing, textiles (essentials, not accessory), manufacturing, transportation, etc. - also education / training (only for aforementioned trades), healthcare, safety / security, etc. A wealth consumer is someone who doesn't contribute to anything listed above, creating things that are merely entertaining, recreational, comfort or luxury - or not doing anything at all, or doing things that are disruptive or destructive.

I don't like using old terms like "productivity", because it includes so many useless endevours, which still earn money, but ultimately lessons the wealth in a nation.

[Joshua Bretz]

A wealth creator is someone whose productivity generates real wealth, real value - water, energy, agriculture / food, housing, textiles (essentials, not accessory), manufacturing, transportation, etc. - also education / training (only for aforementioned trades), healthcare, safety / security, etc. A wealth consumer is someone who doesn't contribute to anything listed above, creating things that are merely entertaining, recreational, comfort or luxury - or not doing anything at all, or doing things that are disruptive or destructive.

I get it now. By your definitions, a "weath creator" would be a working American who actually makes things. And a "wealth consumer" would be one who makes nothing but wastes resources (oil) on yachts and private airplanes.

[Jason M. Hendler]

I get it now. By your definitions, a "weath creator" would be a working American who actually makes things. And a "wealth consumer" would be one who makes nothing but wastes resources (oil) on yachts and private airplanes.

If the individual is only consuming the wealth that he / she created to purchase and operate yachts, private airplanes, etc., then it may be deemed excessive or wasteful, but that does not make them a wealth consumer, as the net balance is positive.

There are a rare few individuals, like myself, who through vision, planning and execution, can cause many multiple times the wealth creation from an organization, than anyone else can. Those visionaries have EARNED that increase in wealth, and deserve a disproportional amount of that wealth, relative to anyone else in that organization, because, even after succeeding, that organization cannot maintain the same level of wealth creation without such a visionary.

If the visionary then wants to consume that EARNED wealth on luxury items, that's fine, as they are allowing others to at least EARN their daily bread. Moreover, I wouldn't necessarily classify yachts and private jets purely wasteful, as the wealthy provide an essential function to an economy as early adopters. They will pay a premium to be the first to enjoy new advances in automobile, maritime and aviation products, allowing those products to be cost reduced, so that others can enjoy them years later at a very cheap price.

The real waste is in industries that create complete non-essentials, like all the worthless knick-knacks you see in the Cracker Barrel, that serve absolutely no function other than to "decorate" an empty home / life.

ADDED:

The development and sale of personal aviation and maritime craft actually benefits our industries which also supply our government with security craft. Many of the instruments developed for the personal craft now make their way into police, national guard, coast guard and military craft. It used to be the other way around, but more progress is now made for private interests, as they don't put as many hurdles in the way.

[pennor1]

Raise gas prices as high as you can. I support high gas prices. Eventually we will stop buying it. The higher gas goes the more affordable the United State's own high technology becomes.

This line of thinking just floors me. Those who advocate sustained high gas prices are basically saying this; "Let's sacrifice the US economy and an entire generation of Americans in the hopes that something better can come of it in 10, 20, or 30 years." What a selfish destructive thing to propose!

Current $4 gasoline is already destroying the lives of millions of lower and middle income families. There is no alternative for many of these families than to buy the gas to get to work. They don't have any viable alternatives available. There are no vehicles available today that don't use petrolium. They own homes far from their jobs. They own vehicles, often not paid for, that are eating them alive because they are feeding the greedy oil companies and speculators. America has spent the past 70 years building a society that is dependant on gasoline to function. Now voices arise proposing that $4, $5, or even $6 gas would be a good thing for America? HOW DUMB! What we need to do is this:

* Do everything possible to reduce the price of gas to an economically sustainable level.

* Raise the CAFE mileage as high as practicle to reduce the number of SUV's and huge pickups being built.

* Give auto makers good long-term tax insentives to build vehicles that exceed CAFE standards.

* Pump Government R&D money into battery, fuel cell, and alternative fuels research.

* Offer permanent and significant tax insentives to individuals who buy alternative fuel vehicles.

* Last but not least, address market conditions by finding a way to return to long term contracts for oil and eliminate the free-wheeling oil markets.

If we do nothing as a nation to address this we will not just see some pain at the pump, we will see an economic depression worse than that of the 1930's. We're already beginning to see stagflation raise its ugly head. The last time we saw this was in the early 1980's. that was the last time that oil markets went nuts. It's time to understand one very important thing: Todays worlds monitary systems are based on the value of oil. The dollar is backed by nothing other than oil. If we allow oil prices to go out of control we are in effect dooming the Dollar to huge inflationary pressures.

So much for my rant. But I'm an old guy. I've seen this before. In 1973 we had our first wake up call and we did nothing. This may be our second and last wake up call. But it will take massive effort to sustain our current civilization while we work toward an oil free future. To propose sacrificing our economny and our infrastructure to get there is in my mind lunacy. Too many familes, mine included, have built a life based on transportation that is petrolium depandent. We have built homes, bought cars, SUV's, motor homes, boats, and other equipment that need to be fueled by gas and diesel. So how can anyone think that $4 gas is a good thing for the America we have today?