Volt Diagnostic Tool

[Charles Whalen]

WopOnTour wrote:

> If you're trying to determine what information would be available
> when using MDI/GDS on the Volt, I could probably take some
> screenshots and post them.

Thanks, that would be great. It might be helpful if I describe what I would like to be able to do with a Volt diagnostic tool. The best way I can do that is to give the background of what I have been doing in that respect with my two 2002 Toyota RAV4-EVs and relate it to that.

For the last 5 and a half years, I have possessed and been using a Toyota dealer’s handheld tester/scantool (made by Vetronix) together with the special RAV4-EV datacard (inserted into the side slot on the scantool) that only authorized RAV4-EV servicing dealers have (24 Toyota dealers in California and 2 in the NYC area). This special RAV4-EV datacard allows EV-specific and battery-specific data to be read on the scantool, and without that special RAV4-EV datacard, the EV-specific and battery-specific data can’t be read. So even my own local Toyota dealer (which is not an authorized RAV4-EV servicing dealer) is not able to read the EV and battery data with their diagnostic equipment, as I am able to do. Regular Toyota dealers can only read the more generic (non-EV-specific) DTCs that are common to both EVs and conventional ICEVs. (BTW, many other individual RAV4-EV owners have the Toyota dealer’s HHT/scantool w/ RAV4-EV datacard.)

The scantool plugs into the OBDII port underneath the driver’s-side instrument panel. It provides a real-time digital readout of such useful things as:

-- SOC

-- Pack voltage

-- Amperage in/out of the pack

-- 3 temperatures -- one in each of the three rows of the battery
compartment (front, middle, and rear), plus ambient temperature

-- Individual voltages of the 24 battery modules

-- Internal resistance values (in mOhm) of each of the 24 battery modules
(calculated by the battery ECU as a long-term moving average,
over the entire SOC range that the driver uses, of many ΔV/ΔI
calculations while driving)

While driving, one can occasionally glance at these data values, which change in real-time as one drives.

My scantool can also be used to reprogram or change the configuration and settings of the various electronic control modules in the car, but I have never done that and would never attempt to do so in the RAV4-EV, just as I would never attempt to do so in the Volt. Other than very rarely checking DTCs, which is useful if there’s some rare anomaly in the operation of the car, the only thing I use the scantool for is just to read the battery data values listed above.

Similarly, this is exactly what I would hope to be able to do in the Volt -- to acquire some sort of scantool which can read and display the same kind of battery data listed above, in real-time while driving. From the list that you gave of the 27 electronic control modules in the Volt, it looks like I would only need to access and tap into just two of those ECMs in order to read and display the battery data I’m interested in -- those being the “Battery Energy Control Module” and the “Coolant Heater Control Module”.

[I don’t know whether the Volt’s “Battery Energy Control Module” calculates and stores long-term moving averages of internal resistance values for individual cells or modules, but I’m not really too concerned with that in the Volt as I am in the RAV4-EV and in fact is really crucial in the RAV4-EV. I don’t think that’s going to be all that crucial in the Volt, for various reasons, which I won’t bother to elaborate here (unless anyone is particularly interested in an explanation of salient differences between the RAV4-EV’s TMS and the Volt’s TMS). I think pack-level IR is probably sufficient in the Volt and don’t think more granularity than that is likely needed. Pack-level IR calculations can easily be manually done on a periodic basis, say, once every 3 months, as long as one can get a digital readout of pack voltage and amperage on a real-time basis while driving. That is the primary metric of how one measures and keeps track of battery condition and health and the rate of degradation and ageing over time. But in the case of not having an automated battery ECU-calculated long-term moving average of IR, where in the absence of that one is going to do a pack-level IR calculation manually on a periodic basis, ... in order to have a valid, consistent basis of comparison over time, one must make sure to always run the IR calculation driving test (full acceleration, in Sport mode) at the same SOC every time and at the same battery temperature every time. In the Volt, I would suggest doing it at around 30% SOC in CD mode (CD mode runs from 85% SOC down to 20% SOC). Holding the temperature constant should be easy, as the Volt’s TMS apparently keeps the batteries between 20 and 22 degrees C while driving.]

Thanks,

Charles Whalen

[Charles Whalen]

WopOnTour wrote:

> At this point I'm still trying to determine if the "aftermarket" version
> of TIS (as made available through AC Delco Techconnect) will even
> permit non-GM accounts to even install GDS from TIS.

That indeed was, and still is, the big question in my mind. My plan of action on this is:

1) to first try to get more information on GDS and see if it will give me real-time access, while driving, to the battery data I’m looking for (described in my previous post immediately above this one),

2) then after that to attempt to purchase the Bosch GM MDI,

3) and then finally, if both of the previous two steps are successful, at the last stage to attempt to purchase an online subscription to the GM TIS-SPS software through AC Delco Techconnect.

On Bosch’s product page for their General Motors MDI (http://www.boschdiagnostics.com/TEST...PAGES/MDI.ASPX), they don’t give any information on how/where to purchase the MDI. It just says “Please call for current pricing”, but doesn’t provide any contact info. So my plan there is to call Bosch’s Customer Support in Santa Barbara, CA listed on their “Diagnostics Sales & Support” page (http://www.boschdiagnostics.com/TEST...PAGES/MDI.ASPX) to see if they can advise me where, as an individual GM customer and Volt owner, I can purchase the MDI.

AC Delco Techconnect sells the GM TIS-SPS software -- through which, presumably, the GDS component is a part of that entire TIS-SPS software package and could be downloaded with it -- on its website, for $275 for a 3-month subscription or $995 for a year (www.acdelcotechconnect.com/html/tss_tech_esi.jsp). That pricing, while expensive, is worth it to me to be able to access the very basic, fundamental battery data I want to be able to see [... that all other EVs provide (for free) to the driver, as a matter of standard practice, and any seasoned, experienced EV driver just expects to be able to see this most basic, fundamental battery info of pack voltage, amperage, and temps, and would feel that he is driving blind without that info (which would be like a conventional gasoline car not having either a tachometer or an odometer)]. I plan to purchase the annual software subscription for $995.

So my plan there, assuming successful acquisition of the MDI, is to attempt to purchase and download the GM TIS-SPS software from AC Delco Techconnect’s website. But yeah, the big question I’m wondering is whether, as you yourself wonder, AC Delco Techconnect will even permit me to do so, as a non-GM account but rather as just an individual retail GM customer.

If I am unable to purchase either the MDI or the TIS software subscription as an individual, then I will have to get an insider, someone with a GM account, to help me with this. I don’t have a lot of close contacts there, but I can think of maybe one or two connections that I might try. In any case, I’m willing to pay an insider to help me with this, so hopefully that might help.

> However recently it's been announced that GDS2 is about to rollout
> (presumably sometime in Q4) so if you are truely interested you may
> wish to wait before pulling the triggger on an MDI package.

Thanks for letting me know about that. Do you know whether GDS2 will use a different interface than the current MDI (Part Number F-00K-108-322), or will it use that same MDI?

BTW, I got a phone call this morning from the Volt salesman at the Chevy dealership where I am purchasing my Volt (3,000 miles away) letting me know that I am on track for a January delivery (at the dealership).

Thanks a lot for your help and any additional insight you can give me on this!

Charles Whalen

[George S. Bower]

One piece of info that would be interesting to know off this tool (or even a simple light on the dash) is whether or not the power split clutch is engaged. I am specualting that we could turn in some way improved CS mode MPG numbers if we drive this car at steady state freeway cruze mode at whatever the lowest speed is that will engage the clutch. I'm guessing 60-65.

[George S. Bower]

Maybe we could go in as a group to purchase the diagnostic tool WOT posted here. Some of the high tech guys like WOT, Charles ChrisC or whomever could make it happen. Who is getting a Volt that lives near WOT??? I would think he would be the lead engineer on the project-----now we just need a car. Lyle has already "sort of" volunteered his if he gets some help hooking up the equipment. I would be willing to chip in some even though I'm not an owner yet.

[WopOnTour]

Charles
My comments embedded in BLUE TEXT below

That indeed was, and still is, the big question in my mind. My plan of action on this is:

1) to first try to get more information on GDS and see if it will give me real-time access, while driving, to the battery data I'm looking for (described in my previous post immediately above this one),

Of course it does, that's what it's for. Unlike the Toyota RAV-EV everything is accessible via the dealer equipment MDI and GDS. I'm just not certain what the aftermarket pckage gets you. Often the aftermarket software packages are behind a year or two behind. But since GDS is so new (just released for the 2010 model year) if you can GET access to it is should have everything for the applicable 200-11 "Global-A" models including the Volt.
2) then after that to attempt to purchase the Bosch GM MDI,

Call Bosch support and they will either put you in touch with an authroized reseller OR sell to you directly.
3) and then finally, if both of the previous two steps are successful, at the last stage to attempt to purchase an online subscription to the GM TIS-SPS software through AC Delco Techconnect.
If you call or email them they should be able to tell you if the aftermarket TIS will provide GDS capability.
On Bosch’s product page for their General Motors MDI (http://www.boschdiagnostics.com/TEST...PAGES/MDI.ASPX), they don’t give any information on how/where to purchase the MDI. It just says “Please call for current pricing”, but doesn’t provide any contact info. So my plan there is to call Bosch’s Customer Support in Santa Barbara, CA listed on their “Diagnostics Sales & Support” page (http://www.boschdiagnostics.com/TEST...PAGES/MDI.ASPX) to see if they can advise me where, as an individual GM customer and Volt owner, I can purchase the MDI.

AC Delco Techconnect sells the GM TIS-SPS software -- through which, presumably, the GDS component is a part of that entire TIS-SPS software package and could be downloaded with it -- on its website, for $275 for a 3-month subscription or $995 for a year (www.acdelcotechconnect.com/html/tss_tech_esi.jsp). That pricing, while expensive, is worth it to me to be able to access the very basic, fundamental battery data I want to be able to see [... that all other EVs provide (for free) to the driver, as a matter of standard practice, and any seasoned, experienced EV driver just expects to be able to see this most basic, fundamental battery info of pack voltage, amperage, and temps, and would feel that he is driving blind without that info (which would be like a conventional gasoline car not having either a tachometer or an odometer)]. I plan to purchase the annual software subscription for $995.

The TIS subscription is just a log-in access to a secure website.From there you "should" be able to install GDS (or GDS2 should it be available) The subscription includes Service Information (shop manual) and Service Programming System access as well.

So my plan there, assuming successful acquisition of the MDI, is to attempt to purchase and download the GM TIS-SPS software from AC Delco Techconnect’s website. But yeah, the big question I’m wondering is whether, as you yourself wonder, AC Delco Techconnect will even permit me to do so, as a non-GM account but rather as just an individual retail GM customer.

If I am unable to purchase either the MDI or the TIS software subscription as an individual, then I will have to get an insider, someone with a GM account, to help me with this. I don’t have a lot of close contacts there, but I can think of maybe one or two connections that I might try. In any case, I’m willing to pay an insider to help me with this, so hopefully that might help.

> However recently it's been announced that GDS2 is about to rollout
> (presumably sometime in Q4) so if you are truely interested you may
> wish to wait before pulling the triggger on an MDI package.

Thanks for letting me know about that. Do you know whether GDS2 will use a different interface than the current MDI (Part Number F-00K-108-322), or will it use that same MDI?
Yes, GDS2 will work with the identical MDI. GDS2 comes from a totally different supplier and has experienced a few delays but is expected to be introduced late in Q4. However my understaning is that BOTH GDS and GDS2 will be accesible from TIS during an initial transition period and then the original GDS will be phased out. The user interface and vehicle specific deliverable maintenance is what has changed the most. The available/viewable datasets would be identical.
BTW, I got a phone call this morning from the Volt salesman at the Chevy dealership where I am purchasing my Volt (3,000 miles away) letting me know that I am on track for a January delivery (at the dealership).

Thanks a lot for your help and any additional insight you can give me on this!

Independant data validation is a good thing, so I'll help where I CAN.
I can start by letting you know where the data you are interested in resides, as well as value ranges and accuracies.

Charles Whalen

[George S. Bower]

Well Charles,
I am interested in what you are doing. Doesn't seem like many of the other guys are-----yet anyway. I am looking forward to seeing the data you gather from this. GSB

[Charles Whalen]

Thanks for the additional info, WOT, and thanks, George, for your continued interest in this.

I attended one of the Volt test drive events in Miami on Friday (the first time I’ve ever seen the car in person), where I came away very impressed both with the Volt and with the GM engineer whom I spent a lot of time speaking with, picking his brain, asking questions, mostly on the Volt’s TMS, about which I learned more details that I’ll post in the separate thread on that later, when I get a chance. Prior to this event, I was 85% sure about my decision to purchase a Volt but still had 15% lingering uncertainties about a few things. I left the event 100% reassured and convinced that I have made the right choice and decision, and very happy about it.

I had a choice of whom to ask about MDI/TIS/GDS and decided not to ask the GM engineer but rather to ask a GM instructor from a GM ASEP program at a local college (who, like me, was also there to get his first view and test drive of the Volt), figuring that he might be a more appropriate person to ask about this (... though the GM engineer and a GM manager in a suit and a few other people seemed curious enough to saunter over and catch part of my extended discussion with the GM ASEP instructor, as I had my Toyota HHT/Scantool out for show-n-tell as well as Bosch MDI and AC Delco Techconnect TIS webpage printouts).

The GM ASEP instructor confirmed much of the info that WOT had previously given us here in this thread, so I was already up-to-speed on a lot of this (thanks to WOT) and thus my conversation with the GM instructor was able to progress quickly to get to the heart of the matter. The GM ASEP program’s TIS subscription and access at the college is running about a year behind the latest software, so he said that they don’t yet have access to GDS, but he was nonetheless familiar with it and said that they are supposed to be getting access to it soon. He was also familiar with the GDS2 upgrade and said it is due out very soon now, before the end of the year (as WOT has said here). He was also familiar with the MDI and said that his understanding is that GDS2 will also use and run on the MDI, just as GDS does (again, confirming the same info WOT has provided here in his latest post that I just read after the Volt test drive event).

The GM instructor thought that it wouldn’t be too difficult for me to find somewhere to purchase the Bosch MDI, as he said there are a few different aftermarket sources for it that sell it, so that would seem to be the easier part. But he thought the difficult part would be for me to purchase online access to TIS, to be able to download and update GDS on a weekly basis. Oh, and on that latter point, he confirmed what WOT said here in an earlier post in this thread -- that one has to log on to TIS once a week in order to keep the GDS software running, as it has a weekly lease that expires and won’t run after 7 days.

He said that he didn’t think it would be possible for an individual like me, for anyone without a GM account, to get an online subscription and access to TIS, because it’s proprietary to GM and, he said, therefore rather sensitive, so much so that he didn’t think any GM dealership or independent GM service shops would want to help me or even really discuss this with me in any detail, unless it’s someone with whom I’ve got a very close relationship of trust and confidence.

Nevertheless, despite that, I am getting some vibes from WOT’s latest post of a faint glimmer of hope that there might be some possibility for an individual without a GM account to be able to purchase an online subscription/access to TIS; otherwise, why would WOT be suggesting that I look into it, contact AD Delco Techconnect, and pursue it? So I guess the only way I will find out for sure is to go ahead and give it a try. So I will pursue both tracks simultaneously in parallel -- to inquire about purchasing a Bosch GM MDI, and to inquire about purchasing a subscription for online access to TIS (contingent upon first determining that GDS is available for download from whatever TIS access I might able to get). But I won’t actually pull the trigger on the MDI purchase until I’ve successfully completed the purchase of the subscription to TIS and have been able to download GDS and install it on my laptop. Given the info WOT has provided in his latest post about GDS being phased out after a brief transition period after the introduction of GDS2 in the next month or two, I guess I should probably only purchase a 3-month subscription to TIS and not a 12-month subscription, since it’s not entirely clear from WOT’s post how/where one will access GDS2 in the future, after that transition period is over, as WOT said that GDS2 will be available from a completely different supplier. Anyway, I’ll move ahead with these attempts to purchase MDI and TIS/GDS and report back the results here.

Thanks again to WOT for all the info.

Charles Whalen

[Charles Whalen]

P.S. After watching me do my show-n-tell with my Toyota HHT/Scantool and actually standing there listening in on most of my MDI/TIS/GDS conversation with the GM ASEP instructor, the GM manager/corporate guy in the suit wryly joked to me with a smile, as I was then getting ready to take my test drive, said he hoped I wouldn’t try to take the car apart piece by piece! :-)

[George S. Bower]

How do you plot the data or view it real time. I would imagine you could record and store the data in the MDI and then plot it on your home computer, but what about real time viewing??

[WopOnTour]

P.S. After watching me do my show-n-tell with my Toyota HHT/Scantool and actually standing there listening in on most of my MDI/TIS/GDS conversation with the GM ASEP instructor, the GM manager/corporate guy in the suit wryly joked to me with a smile, as I was then getting ready to take my test drive, said he hoped I wouldn’t try to take the car apart piece by piece! :-)

Charles, I'm glad to hear you enjoyed your testdrive at the Volt Unplugged event, and are still impressed with the Volt.(most of the RAV-EV people are hard core EV enthusiasts, many skeptical of the VOLT and it's EV capabilities)

The battery data you are most interested in monitoring is actually transmitted by the Battery Energy Control Module and Hybrid Powertrain Control Modules (1/2) so a basic aftermarket scan tool (or gage) is very unlikely to provide you this data.
Yes, there is EVERYTHING you have previously discussed including SOC, current IN/OUT, pack and cluster/block resistances and at least 16 temperature inputs interspaced throughout the battery pack as well as battery coolant Temps IN/OUT/Delta-T etc.
So I think there will be no lack of data for you to analyze with respect to battery performance and end-of-life projections.

I am under the impression that now that the GDS software is no longer "current model year" that it will be eventually (i.e. some time this year) included with at least one of the aftermarket TIS packages (very likely the most expensive $$). This is because GM has agreements to insure aftermarket shops are able to equip themselves to be able to reflash GM control modules (part of OBDII legislation) and since that responsibility has gradually shifted towards the MDI as opposed the older TECH2 scan tool it makes sense.
For now I would just continue to monitor the AC Delco TechConnect website for changes to the available packages and the potential inclusion of GDS/GDS2.
Perhaps the contact you're now made with your local GM-ASEP instructor could be of benefit in this area as well.However I wasn't aware that the college ASEP instructors did not have GDS access. If that is in fact the case then I would say a better resource might be your selling dealer, or their lead Volt technician.

How do you plot the data or view it real time. I would imagine you could record and store the data in the MDI and then plot it on your home computer, but what about real time viewing??

George, the various data values are able to be displayed on a laptop or PC in real-time and are also capable of being captured in a high resolution buffer (~240-600Hz sample rate) for saving as a "Snapshot" file and displayed/plotted using various analysis tools included with GDS. Because the MDI is just an interface between the car and a PC, these snapshot files are actually only limited by available hard drive space on the PC being used.

When I get a chance, I will provide a list of available parameters from each module as promised, but it might be a while before we will have a "legal" way to get this data into the hands of interested owners or independent shops/technicians .

Regards
WopOnTour