4 or 5 seats?

[efusco]

I was going to type a long response, but let me summarize why you'll be wrong about the Volt...

From either a continual rise in price of gas, and/or gas scarcity, the fact that you will be able to get any real distance on a plug in hybrid without using any gas at all will be the single driver of this vehicles success. It will not be 4 or 5 seats. It will not be 35 miles versus 40 on a charge. The driving factor for vehicles in the very near future will be efficiency. Everything else will be second to that (including for many people, cost). If you need a vehicle to carry around a bunch of kids, that will end up being a 'as-needed' vehicle and will not be a primary driver.

If we get to the point where many people are predicting (gas shortages), your Prius, or regular hybrid, or 5 or 6 seater SUV will be a worthless chunk of metal. The public perception of what car to drive is already changing. You dont have to look far with the financial state of all vehicle makers that sell big gas hogging vehicles to see evidence of this. The Volt will be a refreshing alternative that I believe many are waiting for.

BTW. If gas goes down, then you are correct. The Volt will fail. If it stays near to where it is or goes higher, I'd be willing to place a sizeable bet that the Volt will be a market and transportation changing event.

I agree with you in large part.
The irony of the situation is that as more people get PHEVs and fuel efficient cars (be they hybrids or clean diesels or small convenional gas) the demand for gas will go down and, likely, so will the price of gas. I think what we'll find is things will come into a sort of a balance.

Now, the brilliant thing would be to have a coordinated reduction in oil imports along with the reduced demand so that gas prices would stay fairly level even as overall demand was reduced.

But I'm not counting on that happening. Unfortunately too many people see the formula like this....
High gas price = Bad and they're oblivious to the fact that their choice to drive a Suburban is a contributing factor to the higher price of gas and that they're entitled to both cheap gas and irresponsible vehicle choices.

I'm not sure how this perception, in this thread, has come to be that I'm 'anti-Volt'...I'm most definately not. I'm not happy about some of the decisions/compromises/choices whatever that GM's making. I understand all the reasons/excuses about how those choices were made. I just wish that rather than expediency they'd have gone for greatest market appeal. Clearly many here disagree.

And look...even if the best we had was the current generation Prius (and similar from other manufacturers) and we could keep gas prices rising we could become independent of middle East oil imports. PHEVs (ala Volt) are not the only means of achieving that. But I think PHEVs are clearly the next step toward a petroleum based consumer auto market. No doubt in my mind really. I want little more than the Volt to be highly successful with Toyota producing a strong competitor to the Volt and the entire market for PHEVs becoming huge and expanding to all consumer vehicle classes.

[George K]

Quote: (me)
Don't think that standard is applies to other PHEVs. A 20 mile converted Prius means 20 electric miles at under 34 mph!

(you) Actually it's being tested at 62mph AER.

efusco, I was referring to the after market conversions like PriusPlus, PiPrius, etc. which will say, 20 EV miles... Those use the EV circuitry to try to stay EV up to 34 mph, then switch to blended mode.

Also, by the way, a test of a Toyota converted Prius yielded a mileage of 71.3 on a 4 mile run, which included a short fast freeway.That's very good compared to today's cars. But, if you want to decrease gasoline use, a 7 mile Prius looks pretty anemic compared to a 40 mile non-blended Volt! Don't you think?


http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...n-hybrid_N.htm

[efusco]

efusco, I was referring to the after market conversions like PriusPlus, PiPrius, etc. which will say, 20 EV miles... Those use the EV circuitry to try to stay EV up to 34 mph, then switch to blended mode.

Also, by the way, a test of a Toyota converted Prius yielded a mileage of 71.3 on a 4 mile run, which included a short fast freeway.That's very good compared to today's cars. But, if you want to decrease gasoline use, a 7 mile Prius looks pretty anemic compared to a 40 mile non-blended Volt! Don't you think?


http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...n-hybrid_N.htm

I'm refering to the anticipated OEM PHEV20 PriusIII. The aftermarket conversions, while fun, wouldn't help.

As far as the other number....I'm getting 71.3mpg on my current OEM Prius this tank and have a high of 72.3mpg on one tank. I'm quite confident that with a 20 mile AEV range, even if it did peak at 34mph for the EV, I could easily exceed 150mpg...probably much higher than that.

[CarZin]

The irony of the situation is that as more people get PHEVs and fuel efficient cars (be they hybrids or clean diesels or small convenional gas) the demand for gas will go down and, likely, so will the price of gas. I think what we'll find is things will come into a sort of a balance.

I agree, in part. Much of it will rely upon the ability of China to curtain its aggressive gains in petrol use. Its very possible for their gains to out-do our losses. But there are lots of things that can move our oil demand in either way.

I know a lot about energy. To me, petrol displacement should be at the top of the Presidential agenda. Yet the majority of the public is misinformed about all the issues. It doesnt really matter if you believe in peak oil or not. You prepare for the worst when its feasible to do so when the economy has time to come up with alternatives at reasonable costs. I see plug in hybrids as THE best alternative we have right now.

[efusco]

Good points, esp. RE: China Zin...and the poorly informed/disinterested public.

[George K]

As far as the other number....I'm getting 71.3mpg on my current OEM Prius this tank and have a high of 72.3mpg on one tank. I'm quite confident that with a 20 mile AEV range, even if it did peak at 34mph for the EV, I could easily exceed 150mpg...probably much higher than that.

Well, you beat me, but I share the car with my wife! What do you believe you could get with a 40 mile pure EV range? I'm really hoping E-Flex will allow for pulse and glide. But haven't heard either way.

[Koz]

Given the circumstances, I think has made the right call by making it a 4 seater rather than the most likely alternatives of less range (less battery or increased drag) or reduced storage compartment. Other than perhaps utilizing space under the driver and passenger, I don't think they had much alternative. I think the Volt as a 4-seater has plenty of available market to be a success and as others have mentioned their announced plans are to push the E-Flex drive train througout their lineup. I do think GM could easily offer a 4+child seat option for buyers like you. I like the rear cockpit idea with 4 seats as the standard, and see only upside to offering a 4+1 option.

For GM listeners at work (or home), how about a rear bench seat option for families of 5?

[efusco]

Well, you beat me, but I share the car with my wife! What do you believe you could get with a 40 mile pure EV range? I'm really hoping E-Flex will allow for pulse and glide. But haven't heard either way.

40AEV I suspect we'd be looking at 1000MPG or so based upon my current driving. I do drive to my lake house about 60 miles away every other weekend or so and there are the occasional longer trips. But I sat down one day and calculated my miles that I'd drive w/o battery and it was just a few thousand out of my average of about 14k miles per year that I drive. I think I worked it out to using less than 20 gallons of gas a year...

That's a good question on the Pulse and glide issue...at what SOC will the ICE shut off? Will the driver have any control over that...If I just need enough 'juice' to get the last 2 miles home can I force it off the last mile and put it directly on the charger?
I also wondered if there would be a default regen built in like the Prius has or if there's an option for a 'free-wheel' glide. The RAV4EV has that option which allows a sort of pulse and glide.

[efusco]

Given the circumstances, I think has made the right call by making it a 4 seater rather than the most likely alternatives of less range (less battery or increased drag) or reduced storage compartment. Other than perhaps utilizing space under the driver and passenger, I don't think they had much alternative. I think the Volt as a 4-seater has plenty of available market to be a success and as others have mentioned their announced plans are to push the E-Flex drive train througout their lineup. I do think GM could easily offer a 4+child seat option for buyers like you. I like the rear cockpit idea with 4 seats as the standard, and see only upside to offering a 4+1 option.

For GM listeners at work (or home), how about a rear bench seat option for families of 5?

I'm not saying it wasn't the best decision under the circumstances. But I have to wonder if they committed themselves to that "T"shaped design a bit too early and should have considered something that would fit beneath the rear seat, raise up behind it, then flatten out again under the cargo area in the back to allow for a full rear-bench. It seems the only issue is the configuration of the battery and I can't see that there's anything magical about the "T" shape.

[Koz]

I'm not saying it wasn't the best decision under the circumstances. But I have to wonder if they committed themselves to that "T"shaped design a bit too early and should have considered something that would fit beneath the rear seat, raise up behind it, then flatten out again under the cargo area in the back to allow for a full rear-bench. It seems the only issue is the configuration of the battery and I can't see that there's anything magical about the "T" shape.

It's a hatchback so I don't think the battery could raise up behind the rear seats without taking a lot of cargo space, but perhaps the battery section that creates the high tunnel between the front seats and rear seats could have been relocated in raised "humps" under the driver and passenger seats. This section only looks like about 1/5 of the total pack. This might be too costly though.