wind power is a wonderfull way to get more high power energy

[misslexi]

Greenman,

I see your point concerning the intentional sabotage of alternate energy by oil, coal etc. Perhaps I'm not close enough to it to see examples of that.

To me though, it's an oil company's job to go drill for and refine oil, and a coal company's job to go mine coal. I don't expect either of them to be working on wind or solar power. In fact I'd go so far as to say we don't want those guys working on any of the new energy sources, they would probably screw it up anyway.

By the way, ultimately I think you are right, but for now, IBM mainframes are doing very well thank you (I know, I program those darn things) There are still some jobs that only a mainframe can do. The biggest problem the mainframe faces right now is a shortage of the people who know how to make them work. They are all retiring or expiring, the youngsters want no part of it.

Well, time to get back to my MVS manual

[Greenman]

Greenman,

I see your point concerning the intentional sabotage of alternate energy by oil, coal etc. Perhaps I'm not close enough to it to see examples of that.

To me though, it's an oil company's job to go drill for and refine oil, and a coal company's job to go mine coal. I don't expect either of them to be working on wind or solar power. In fact I'd go so far as to say we don't want those guys working on any of the new energy sources, they would probably screw it up anyway.

By the way, ultimately I think you are right, but for now, IBM mainframes are doing very well thank you (I know, I program those darn things) There are still some jobs that only a mainframe can do. The biggest problem the mainframe faces right now is a shortage of the people who know how to make them work. They are all retiring or expiring, the youngsters want no part of it.

Well, time to get back to my MVS manual

MVS? Wow. It is still around? Actually IBM did move away from Big Iron and has done quite well as a service company. Others weren't so fortunate.

Entrenched interests will always resist change that threatens them. The current debate in Washington is the Renewable Energy Standard which will dictate a percentage of electricity from renewables going into the future. You may have heard 20 in 2030 or 25 in 2025.

Wind, solar and perhaps geothermal will be big winners if this passes. Coal, natural gas, and petroleum will be big losers. Can you bet on who is lobbying big time to water this down or stop it?

Fact: wind energy produces more domestic jobs per energy unit than any other energy source. It's not even close. Wind is nearly pollution free, economical, and local - and when coupled with electric cars will go much, much farther to eliminate energy dependence on foreign sources than "Drill Baby Drill." Jobs, energy independence, and the environment all in one.

With that, I'll go back to my 3270/TSO and knock out some COBOL.

[Mike756]

"Fact: wind energy produces more domestic jobs per energy unit than any other energy source."


I think you have the ratio backwards; we want more energy per domestic job.


Or do we want the most people working for the minimum benefit?


What is it that people work for?

[pdt]

What is it that people work for?

I think this is an excellent question and one for which very little discussion exists. The whole subject of economics ultimately boils down to that question. Let's talk about it!

Personally, I don't think it's such a bad thing to have more people working on a very high value product (sustainable energy) and fewer people unemployed or doing other jobs which deliver products of lower inherent value that are unsustainable.

[hermperez]

that is one of the problems of wind power, too much labor, maintenance, capital.. way to many moving parts.

Eventually cheap solar cells with their simplicity will kill wind power... and many other power industries.

[Altazi]

that is one of the problems of wind power, too much labor, maintenance, capital.. way to many moving parts.

Eventually cheap solar cells with their simplicity will kill wind power... and many other power industries.

There will always be the need for workers to clean off the solar cells when they get dirty, or leaves fall on them. One badly-placed leaf can reduce the output of a string of 5A cells to a few mA; it's a "weak link in the chain" kind of thing.

[pdt]

that is one of the problems of wind power, too much labor, maintenance, capital.. way to many moving parts.

Eventually cheap solar cells with their simplicity will kill wind power... and many other power industries.

The cost of the solar cells is typically about 50% of the cost of a solar installation, so even free cells will not result in free electricity. Also, away from the equator, solar produces much less power in winter, so you either need to have seasonal energy storage or a great deal of excess power in summer.

There are places where solar is not a great option compared to wind. Solar is great in Arizona, but less so in New York for instance (solarbuzz.com).

Both have advantages and disadvantages, and I believe both will continue to be a growing part of our energy system.

[Greenman]

that is one of the problems of wind power, too much labor, maintenance, capital.. way to many moving parts.

Eventually cheap solar cells with their simplicity will kill wind power... and many other power industries.

Solar is a fantastic energy resource. It's cost keeps coming down but it is still 4-5 times more expensive than wind where the sun shines a lot.

When do you realistically think "eventually" is? Wind is happening now and has the potential to displace significant fossil fuels in the next 25 years. Solar? Not likely to make a big dent in the next 25 years.

Personally, I'm excited about wind, solar, and geothermal. Nuclear, not so much. Coal? NEVER!!!

[hermperez]

Around 10 years, Nanosolar is cranking up production quickly..

http://www.nanosolar.com/video/Nanosolar_video.wmv

they literally print the things on a roll of material, cheap solar cells are coming.

True you still have to keep the panels clean but at least you dont have moving parts. I expect to see a lot of these on the roofs of private homes.

When do you realistically think "eventually" is?

[Greenman]

Around 10 years, Nanosolar is cranking up production quickly..

http://www.nanosolar.com/video/Nanosolar_video.wmv

they literally print the things on a roll of material, cheap solar cells are coming.

True you still have to keep the panels clean but at least you dont have moving parts. I expect to see a lot of these on the roofs of private homes.

I would have said 10 years too. I'm happy if we build wind turbines for the next 10-20 years and replace them with solar when they wear out in 30-40. I've been watching NanoSolar but I still wonder about service life for their panels. Do you have any insight?