Esstor Ultra capacitors

[jeremy wayne wilson]

The little Zenn city car is to be sold in fall of 09 here in USA. It runs on supercaps that recharge in 5 minutes and suppose to have a range of 250 miles. If this is true, I hope GM takes notice and uses this technology in the Volt. GO Volt Go!

[Jason M. Hendler]

I would be surprised if supercaps would provide all the performance characteristics needed for vehicles without a complimentary set of batteries, but I could be wrong. The more things that are tried, the quicker we find an optimal configuration.

[Chris Wright]

Suppose it takes four hours to do the 250 miles using a 20kW motor. To provide this amount of energy in a five minute charge would require almost a 1MW charger! And we are supposed to plug these in where?

[DaV8or]

Yep. When you consider energy recharge time for vehicles, liquid and gas powered vehicles come out way ahead of battery (or even potentially capacitors someday) power for convenience and flexibility.

[Texas]

Relax people! There are at least two good solutions in-the-pipe for the fast charging of automotive batteries:

1) High power, no contact (inductive) charging from the bottom of the car. The supply system will be another storage system like a super-cap or advanced battery. These batteries are charged all day and night and in-between customer recharges. Thus, the charging stations will not need to extract that high of a flow from the grid all at once. If the station has super high energy requirements then it will make sense to give it a dedicated high power line. Most stations do not run anywhere near the continuous power required for a 5 minute recharge. Also, most of the charging will be done in the garage and in parking lots and will not require the super fast recharge. You will basically be doing charging at every stop, not filling up once a week like you do with liquid fuels. Slight culture change, what's the big deal?

2) Swap-out stations. Just read the solution proposed by Project Better Place. Simple and uses technology of today. Might not work too well for the US because of it's size and difficulty of providing the critical mass of charging and swap-out stations but that's why we have the hybrids, right? After the infrastructure is in place (as long as gas remains viable) then we can conveniently switch to an all EV fleet.

Yes, gas and diesel were great! However, I don't feel they will be needed in the future and the benefits to switching are hard to calculate. Agreed?

[Jason M. Hendler]

Relax people! There are at least two good solutions in-the-pipe for the fast charging of automotive batteries:

1) High power, no contact (inductive) charging from the bottom of the car. The supply system will be another storage system like a super-cap or advanced battery. These batteries are charged all day and night and in-between customer recharges. Thus, the charging stations will not need to extract that high of a flow from the grid all at once. If the station has super high energy requirements then it will make sense to give it a dedicated high power line. Most stations do not run anywhere near the continuous power required for a 5 minute recharge. Also, most of the charging will be done in the garage and in parking lots and will not require the super fast recharge. You will basically be doing charging at every stop, not filling up once a week like you do with liquid fuels. Slight culture change, what's the big deal?

This approach faces the same problem as the hydrogen approach - who is going to build these massive power stations in the densities required to have people feel confident that they can take long trips?

2) Swap-out stations. Just read the solution proposed by Project Better Place. Simple and uses technology of today. Might not work too well for the US because of it's size and difficulty of providing the critical mass of charging and swap-out stations but that's why we have the hybrids, right? After the infrastructure is in place (as long as gas remains viable) then we can conveniently switch to an all EV fleet.

Yes, after paying for your automobile, you get to lease a battery pack, so the car will be cheap but the long term lease is going to hit you hard month after month, and when you can't pay it, they repossess your battery pack, leaving you with a vehicle shell that you can't use.

Yes, gas and diesel were great! However, I don't feel they will be needed in the future and the benefits to switching are hard to calculate. Agreed?

Gasoline, diesel and alcohol are going to hang around until they add enough hydrogen tanks at their filling stations to eventually replace them.

[Texas]

This approach faces the same problem as the hydrogen approach - who is going to build these massive power stations in the densities required to have people feel confident that they can take long trips?

I now see you have definitely sided with hydrogen. Lately, I’ve been seeing the remaining "hydrogen" people slowly and grudgingly switching to other energy solutions. It's good to see there are a few suborn people left. Keep hanging on to that dream, Jason. Let me explain the extreme differences in infrastructure.

1) For hydrogen you need all of the infrastructure in place just to start (chicken and the egg). One of the ways to get around that is to have a hydrogen / petroleum hybrid. Think about it. You still need a battery (at least Prius size but a plug-in hybrid size would be better - grid electricity will always be cheaper than hydrogen), then you would need your fuel cell and associated storage system and finally you would still need your good old fashioned ICE and it’s gas tank. You might be able to put a hydrogen electrolysis station on-board but no way would this be a quick-fill solution. No way. Now I'm sure just about everyone on the planet, except for you, can agree with me that the normal series hybrid option is a tad less expensive. In two years, when the first high-volume plug-in hybrids come out, we will, as a nation, start moving towards the pure electrification of our transportation fleet (standard hybrids started to get the automobile converted but not the complete system - filling up with grid electricity). We can go as fast or as slow as we wish (depending on the oil situation, that is). Now I haven’t heard any news or products planned for the proposed hydrogen / petroleum hybrid but if someone was crazy enough to build one (Jason?) I’m guessing it would take many more years. However, that is just what would be needed. You said it yourself that pure EVs will never take off until all the infrastructure is in place. Same for hydrogen. Unless you create the hydrogen / petroleum hybrid. Now that’s a lot of systems!

2) You need to create the infrastructure to generate the hydrogen and store it. Firstly, using hydrolysis on-site would require a much more efficient processes (horrible efficiency). I have heard about some progress in this area but it’s still in the lab (much like the rest of the hydrogen dream). Here’s the funny thing Jason, to generate the hydrogen on-site you need the exact electrical infrastructure as needed for the EVs stations. The same amount of energy would need to be delivered in a given day. For the hydrogen station however, you need all that AND the hydrogen hydrolosis equipment AND the hydrogen storage system (liquid or high pressure). Thus, you have the difference of batteries vs. hydrolosis machines and hydrogen storage. Again, everyone on the planet except you, could agree that the batteries would be less expensive and easier to get up an running, not to mention more efficient.

3) If you go with the off-site hydrogen generation option you need to re-equip the entire liquid petroleum truck fleet from gas and diesel over to liquid hydrogen (or very high pressure hydrogen). Think about this for a moment. This is above and beyond what was needed for the EV solution. The EV solution does not need ANY trucks. Nada. No huge hydrogen electrolysis generation plants and their associated huge liquid storage facilities which then safely transfer their liquid loads over to the specialized trucks that are driven by their highly trained operators (more costs and heavy medal on the road) delivering their loads to the hydrogen network. Sure they could develop liquid hydrogen pipes all over the country but... Everyone on the planet can agree, expect you, that high voltage power lines are a tad cheaper than liquid hydrogen (or high-pressure) lines.

Yes, after paying for your automobile, you get to lease a battery pack, so the car will be cheap but the long term lease is going to hit you hard month after month, and when you can't pay it, they repossess your battery pack, leaving you with a vehicle shell that you can't use.

Yeah, you are right Jason. This happens all the time in America and the rest of the world over their cell phones and is a huge disaster. <sarcasm> I'm not saying that the cell phone model for battery leasing is the only way to go. In fact I suggested having a smaller, owner-owned battery with the option to rent or lease batteries when it’s convenient.

In the world, if you don't pay your energy bills they are cut off. If you don't pay for your gasoline at the station you get arrested, etc. Everyone on the planet would agree, except you, that it would be preferable to pay the cost of electricity generated by solar, wind, and our abundant (for a few hundred years - depending) coal rather than having to pay the unexpected cost of petroleum based products. Jason, did you read the other day that it appears Russia has reached peak? Second largest oil producer. http://rosemanblog.sovereignsociety....oil-comes.html (yes, you are going to bring up Brazil but read the article first - it will explain it better) Of course you don't believe in peak oil but when the Russian government says they are not going to produce at a higher level anymore and that they may even stagnate most people can ponder what’s going on.

Thus, you can keep petroleum in the game and deal with peak oil (who knows when we will peak - even switching over to shale and sands will significantly raise the prices - because it requires much more energy to extract) or you can pay your monthly car electric bill like you already do your cell phone with rates that are not changing that much, especially when you see the problems other people around the world are having with their petroleum based cars. Of course you would think that not going to grid energy and investing in hydrogen is a much better option.

Gasoline, diesel and alcohol are going to hang around until they add enough hydrogen tanks at their filling stations to eventually replace them.

No Jason, it won't be hydrogen stations. It will be simply, easy, completely understood electrical stations that will eventually replace the liquid fuels (in high percentages), unless someone like you (or existing oil companies or governments) gets their way and forces us to accept another liquid fuel and all the associated costs.

[Cybereye]

No Jason, it won't be hydrogen stations. It will be simply, easy, completely understood electrical stations that will eventually replace the liquid fuels (in high percentages), unless someone like you (or existing oil companies or governments) gets their way and forces us to accept another liquid fuel and all the associated costs.

I don't even think it going to needed electrical stations at all. I'm sure battery, solar, and wind power will improve much faster and cheaper rate then compare to build infrastructure in place. I really think home will become electrical infrastructure stations. Unless Jason, existing oil companies, or governments force us to change our behavor.

I always enjoy Texas and Jason picking each other. I have no bad view on Jason. He had made good point. When there is a bad point Jason made. It seem Taxas pop out and try to correct Jason's view.

[Eric E]

If you're going to take a road trip, you have to be able to quick charge or swap batteries eventually. The E-REV is going to give us the time we need to implement a charging infrastructure. Battery swapping will never work in the USA.

I don't understand why the concept of quick charging is so difficult for everyone to deal with. Yeah, the braided wire charging cable will be a little bigger than a gasoline pump hose, big deal. And we're going to need battery storage the size of a shipping container that cost $1 million, so what. A Three phase 600 amp service to each station, piece of cake.

We'll have less than half as many charging stations as we have gas stations today, because the only time people will need them is on long trips. We certainly wont have three at one intersection like we do now.

This is the future...
Electric cars, charge at home, or the office, quick charge at a premium when you must.

[Koz]

Quick charging can be of value as a convenience item at supermarkets, convenience stores, malls, etc. It could also work at highay service plazas, highwayside restaurants, rest stops, etc. I don't see it being a primary revenue source or being 600V/200A anytime soon. 240V at max A for Volt capability (hopefully 100A) will most likely be available in near term. After that, I see battery capability going beyond 300 miles and extended battery capacity rentals coming on. Buy the capacity that you need on a regular basis and rent the rest for the occasion trip. Swap the rental battery for "quick charge".

For quick charging only to supplant the genset for most people, the battery must be capable of 250 miles or more. It will be a while before batteries are cheap enough and light enough for this. Until they get below $100/KWh, I don't think it will make sense to offer more than 80-100 AER.