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Ford Energi design vs. Chevy Volt

18K views 25 replies 21 participants last post by  saghost 
#1 ·
You know.. I've been thinking about this for the last few months on and off. And the more I think about it, the more I think Ford may have a better drive train. My understanding is they are basically using the same style as Toyota's hybrid synergy drive, except they have a more powerful inverter and a larger battery.

Now.. when comparing the Volt, it may seem like a no brainer that the Volt is a superior product. But most of the reason has to do with the larger battery pack. So I got to thinking about how much difference there would be if the Ford had a 40-mile battery pack just like the Volt.

So I know the Energi can deliver 68KW of power. And I think the C-Max and the Volt weigh a similar amount (C-Max Energi= 3,859 lbs vs. Chevy Volt=3,786 lbs) So I think it is safe to say that if I look at my KW readout on my dash of my Volt and keep the output under 68KW, I can assume that normal driving performance around town would be almost identical on the C-Max and Volt. Basically, on a normal day I rarely exceed 40 KW.

So here's the trade-off. With the Energi drive-train, my all electric driving is unchanged 99% of the time except for when I want a lot more acceleration, which I rarely do anyway. When I do want that hard acceleration, I have to listen to the sound of an ICE, which I wouldn't like. But I would also get a lot MORE acceleration than the Volt gives... and that part I WOULD like.

But then I thought about some other things. The Energi design is likely cheaper to build with the smaller electric motor, no clutches, etc. But it also looks better on paper for the uneducated. So the 0-60 time of the Energi looks a lot better than the Volt. Car and Driver shows the Cmax Energi is 7.9 seconds and the Volt at 9.1 seconds. So naturally people think the Cmax is faster, and it is. They may not realize that the ICE has to fire up, and I am willing to bet most people probably wouldn't care.

So having said all of that.. I'm really wondering if Ford will stay with the current PHEV design even if they offer a larger battery.
 
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#3 ·
And there are "haters" in every walk of life it seems.

I think there would be some justification for saying the same thing about the Volt and GM.

Although not the same model, I've had a hybrid Fusion for about a year now and am quite pleased with it.
No plug-in capability but good mileage and good power too when you need it.
 
#6 ·
Oh, I am not saying that from a point of hate, but because a) we don't get it here in UK, and b) when I was actively looking for my next EV I asked Ford representatives who were displaying the BEV Focus and they couldn't even tell me who to ask to find out which dealerships were selling them. I got an Ampera instead....
 
#7 ·
Couple of points. First of all, as I understand it the main drive motor is rated at 90 kW/118 HP - the 68 kW is a battery based limitation that the notional "40 mile Energi" presumably would share.

Second, I doubt it really becomes "a lot faster" than a volt with the system on. Total system power is still less than 200 HP, and only about 30% higher than the Volt.

Much more important to my mind, though, is the lack of TMS and more aggressive SoC window. I wouldn't count on the Energi battery lasting like the Volt ones do (it might - but we don't have the history and it isn't nearly as coddled.)
 
#8 · (Edited)
It's not just a matter of a smaller battery pack. The traction motor is attached to the ring gear, putting it at a mechanical disadvantage. The Volt's traction motor is attached to the sun gear. Even if the motor was the same size as the Volt's, which it isn't, you'd get much less acceleration. Of course if you're willing to have the engine come on and provide propulsion then you can go faster because the engine is connected to the planetary carrier. The Cadillac ELR apparently takes 2+ seconds off the Volt's 0-60 time by doing that.

FYI I wouldn't rely on the Car & Driver 0-60 time overly much. I think Motor Week clocked it at 8.5 seconds. Probably just depends on the roll out. The more rollout the lower the number. Electrics don't really benefit as much from rollouts as ICE, and I suspect that a Volt wouldn't have too much trouble leaving a C-Max at the line even with its engine running. Might be fun to find out!

The Volt is just simpler. You charge it and you drive it and, until the battery goes flat, you're driving electrically. With the parallel hybrids there are just many nuances as to when and if you'll be able to do that. Plus you won't be able to go very far until the batter is kaput.
 
#15 ·
It's not just a matter of a smaller battery pack. The traction motor is attached to the ring gear, putting it at a mechanical disadvantage. The Volt's traction motor is attached to the sun gear. Even if the motor was the same size as the Volt's, which it isn't, you'd get much less acceleration.
You are referring to the older Toyota and Ford hybrid transmission designs. The current generation designs from both companies introduce a reduction gear between MG2 and the main power-split planetary ring gear. Toyota does it with a 2nd planetary gear by connecting the main power-split ring gear to the planetary carrier of the 2nd planetary gear set and then connecting MG2 to the Sun gear while locking the new ring gear to the transmission case. This is identical to how the 2016 Volt/Malibu operate the 2nd planetary gear set when the clutches are in the input-split or Low Range eCVT mode. The newer Ford hybrid transmission effectively does the same thing with their MG2 but with a simpler reduction gear rather than a 2nd planetary gear set.
 
#9 ·
A few points:

- The Energi cars, both Fusion and C-Max, aren't built from the ground up specifically as PHEVs or EVs. So there's a lot of physical compromise, such as the teeny trunk both the C-Max and Fusion Energis. Perhaps if Ford actually committed itself seriously to electrification soon, it would introduce a car that was designed to be a plug-in from the start.

- If the FE had a 40-mile range, both the weight and cost of the car would substantially increase. Batteries are the limiting cost factor in all electrified vehicles right now -- the technology is mostly there, cost is not. You *can* have a 250mi+ EV, but you'll have to pay for that (see Tesla). If Ford added a substantially larger battery to the FE, it would no longer be particularly cost competitive. Moreover, the weight would significantly increase, thus rendering the 68kW power rating even less adequate.

- Regarding acceleration: The Volt can actually accelerate a lot quicker than the on-board computer allows it to -- it's not a limitation of hardware or powertrain architecture. I believe there's a YouTuber who has hacked his/her Volt to go naught-60 in something like 5 or 6 seconds. However, every car is about balance. GM doesn't make this hacked setting the default because the Volt is optimized for efficiency. GM probably thinks the vast majority of Volt owners and interested buyers are most focused on efficient, affordable electric driving without major compromises in drive quality. And I think the Volt delivers on those criteria. But it can definitely do better, and we're seeing incremental improvements in areas such as acceleration with the updated ELR and the Gen 2 Volt. Once battery costs have come down, expect to see a lot more acceleration-generous plug-in options.
 
#10 ·
The Volt has flexible & useable luggage space, the Energi not. Important to people like me.
 
#11 ·
I have a Volt, my wife a C-Max Energi. The Volt is a lot more fun to drive.
 
#13 ·
I would point out that I was only comparing the drive train. Lots of people complaining about the trunk, the range, etc. And yes, I have also been wondering how the 2016 Voltec transmission will compare. I hope it is better. But it seems to me that if you have a PHEV and you have a gas engine in the car, it should be able to help accelerate the car for more power if the driver wants it. And if the driver wants a pure EV experience, they should be able to do that too.
 
#14 · (Edited)
FWIW, some guy on the main C-Max Energi owners forums is talking about outfitting his C-Max with a customized 20 kWh HV battery. I'm pretty dubious, but he seems to know what he's talking about. He says he can do this while dropping the weight of the battery and without significantly increasing the space the battery takes up. I'll believe it when I see it.

Huh, upon further reading, the guy says he can reduce the space the HV battery takes up, so the Energi could have cargo space equal to the hybrid version.
 
#16 ·
I'm a little shocked by all this talk. My left eyebrow is raised right now...

When i was looking for an electric vehicle a year and a half ago, I test drove a Fusion Energi, a Fiat 500e and my Volt. The Fiat was 'okay' but just felt 'tiny' compared to the other two. And then head to head, the Volt beat the Fusion COMPLETELY, in all ways, on the road. Better handling, etc. Simply put, I put the pedal to the floor on the Fusion, and it couldn't get out of its own way as I 'accelerated' onto the local freeway. The Volt did well enough in Normal mode, and was just off the chart compared to the Fusion when put in Sport mode. Just no comparison.

- shud
 
#17 ·
I've been involved with selling both Volts and C-Max Energis. I sell about 10 Volts for every Ford. The overriding concern with those who purchased an Energi is the 5th seat belt. Hopefully Gen2 Volt 5th seat will eliminate that concern.
 
#18 ·
I extensively compared the two. I really like the Energi for my family. My two daughters really liked the rear air vents. I loved all the amenities that the Energi had over the Volt, sunroof, bliss, sync (light years ahead of the volt's backwards voice controls), and a power seat among many others, but that TINY trunk was an absolute killer. I actually did a luggage test between the Volt and the Energi. It was hilarious, but the Volt easily won.
 
#19 ·
I came from a 2010 Prius, which I loved, but I feel like a made a big step up. The Volt feels like a luxury car to me. Loving it!
 
#20 · (Edited)
In the Fusion, I knew when I punched the go pedal the engine would come on to get the full 200 hp.

When the ICE did come on, (after 20 miles or so), 90 percent of the time the ICE was quiet and smooth. There was 10 percent where I was going up hill in battery depletion mode and engine would rev up high because it wanted to do two things... 1. apply torque to the wheels and 2. charge the high voltage battery. When it did that it would growl.

I was able to put two carry on bags and a backpack into the trunk when picking up guests at the airport. It has 8.2 cubic feet of trunk space. Despite the back seats folding down, there was no pass through to increase cargo space (due to the big battery placement). The Volt has 10.6 cubic feet with the rear seats folded up. The 2015 Toyota Prius Plug-in has 21.6 cubic feet of cargo space with the seats folded up.

I averaged approx. 70 mpge lifetime including a 2000 mile round trip from Seattle to California and back.

I charged it almost every night while asleep. I sometimes charged it at public charging stations but not a lot.

During the three years, I drove 29900 miles. I spent $865.62 u.s dollars in regular gasoline. I didn't keep good records of how much khw I consumed. I estimate I spent $650 u.s. on electricity over three years.

I had one oil change and one issue when the 12 volt battery died. It was replaced under warranty for free.
 
#21 ·
New videos out by John Kelly on YouTube WeberAuto channel called Chevrolet Volt 4ET50 Transaxle Components and Operation.

He takes the electric drive unit apart and explains each component. It is helpful to know the terminology of a planetary gear set (ring, sun, planet carrier) in order to follow along. Warning: This may be too much information for casual drivers!

Volt gen 1 drive unit video (Released Sept 27th 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqM3YXEf1js

comparison of 3 generations of Ford Hybrid trans-axle video (Released Sept 20th 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHU5xFOBcsU
 
#24 ·
#22 ·
Thought about the Ford Energi and went for a 2016 Volt when we traded in our 2014 Volt. Fall weather 64 miles of electric range, mid 40's mpg+ just on the gas engine, and the Volt's hatchback design was a winner in my book. The 2016 Volt is my wifes car and she can drive back and forth to work 32 miles round trip and never have to use gas. Unless temps go below 14 F, or we don't take our usual trip to Portland Oregon at least once a month, so EMM won't be deployed. As a bonus we also qualify for the Fed Tax Credit of $7,500...
 
#23 ·
I realize this is an old thread, but personally, I think Ford made a mistake by mimicking Toyota rather than moving in the same direction as GM. GM is currently offering better EV solutions than any other manufacturer (including Tesla), and the only thing holding them back is branding.

If Ford, Toyota, Honda, Tesla, etc. offered the Volt or the upcoming Bolt, they wouldn't be able to keep up production with demand. You can tell GM is run by a woman: Doing more, better work than its competitors for less recognition and return.
 
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