Extend a Helping Hand to Nissan Leaf Owners

[DonC]

I can't see any good coming out of this. All EVs will get tarred with the same brush. In addition to questions about whether our Volts are about to spontaneously combust we'll also get questions about how soon it will be before our batteries are useless.

[davidbrannon]

I actually think this is a good idea. My opinion is that this Leaf battery issue is going to be a big deal. Nissan screwed up. And this is going to affect ALL electric cars, because the general public has proven incapable of parsing technical data. GM would actually control the story by saying, "Hey, we don't have those problems. Trade in your Leaf for a Volt and let us prove it." It would force media to ask the question, 'Why is GM doing this? What is so different about their battery than Nissan's?'

All it is going to take is the wrong idiot, like Seton Motley, to write about it and drudge to publish it to be a big issue, and then the media will control the issue, not GM.

I understand the logic in highlighting other competitor's failures. But keep in mind that they are both viewed as EV products. May shoot themselves in the foot if batteries in particular are attacked. GM should be silent and let the free market work itself out, government incentives or not.

[davidbrannon]

I can't see any good coming out of this. All EVs will get tarred with the same brush. In addition to questions about whether our Volts are about to spontaneously combust we'll also get questions about how soon it will be before our batteries are useless.

Duh...i should really read the whole thread before responding to posts. Don wins again.

[Henry_FL]

You should really check out their forum. There's several folks who's range is down 25%, at least two who are around 30% lost and one guy was on the local CBS station talking about how his range was 90 and is now 40 miles (presumably before LBW). They're really not flapping their gums because their dash lights aren't working. Recalibrating lights won't bring back lost capacity.

Allow me to start by saying, I'm someone who has fought this fight and is in the 0.01% club for really knowing the technology, Solar Dave knows who I am if you doubt I know my stuff ...

Battery age for all sorts of reasons, IMHO the primary leaf issue is the car doesn't protect the battery from the user, temperature is a secondary concern.. For example, Fast charge DC, charging repeatedly to 100%, even driving style with fast acceleration retaliative to the amp-hour rating of the battery will substantially short life.

I read the main thread a few weeks ago, not once did I see any hard data or someone using lab equipment to do a full discharge to deterministically test just a battery pack to measure capacity, the only thing I saw was what appeared to be measuring battery voltage and not one of them seem to understand the voltage will vary based on temperature what this fully means.

Just like the Volts range varies with temperature, so will the leaf. It hot, the AC will run, its cool, the heater will run an kill the mileage. Since the Leaf battery is subjected to a wider temperature range, that pack itself will have very wide swings in range, just because today in Phoenix when its 115 it has a lower range, doesn't mean next fall it will not regain range, not all but a significant percentage. Those in renewable energy have worked with large battery banks for decades, none of this is new information.

Having said this, I believe the leaf is a disaster and its going to bankrupt Nissan. They have no protections from owners killing there cars and then regardless of the cause. As time marches on, its clear that GM thought through all of this and that's why we have 16kw battery's, thermally protected, that the uses has a limited charger/discharge profile of 10kw maximum.

[mhoepfin]

IMHO the primary leaf issue is the car doesn't protect the battery from the user, temperature is a secondary concern.. For example, Fast charge DC, charging repeatedly to 100%, even driving style with fast acceleration retaliative to the amp-hour rating of the battery will substantially short life.

This is one thing that has surprised me as well when I read the MNL forum. For cripes sake, there shouldn't be a way that the owner can kill the car. Remember the Tesla's getting bricked because the battery would run down.

Seriously, these designs deserve the scorn and ridicule. There should not be a "wrong way to charge" that will kill or damage a battery.

[Kup]

I actually think this is a good idea. My opinion is that this Leaf battery issue is going to be a big deal. Nissan screwed up. And this is going to affect ALL electric cars, because the general public has proven incapable of parsing technical data. GM would actually control the story by saying, "Hey, we don't have those problems. Trade in your Leaf for a Volt and let us prove it." It would force media to ask the question, 'Why is GM doing this? What is so different about their battery than Nissan's?'

All it is going to take is the wrong idiot, like Seton Motley, to write about it and drudge to publish it to be a big issue, and then the media will control the issue, not GM.

I wouldn't call Seton Motley an idiot. He's a pathetic loser and a liar that is attempting to make money off of misinforming people that have the same political bent as he does. As a person that has never voted for a Democrat in my life it is so sad to see what has become of "my" side and why I cannot support Republicans any longer because he is totally symptomatic of what is wrong with "my" party.

[Zythryn]

.... Remember the Tesla's getting bricked because the battery would run down.

Seriously, these designs deserve the scorn and ridicule. There should not be a "wrong way to charge" that will kill or damage a battery.

I think that is a little harsh. In Tesla's case it actually took a lot more than letting the battery run down. You had to run it down, then,et it sit without being plugged it for months, or intentionally drain it in 'range' mode and let it sit, not plugged in for weeks.
Does the design of an ICE deserve scorn because if you drain/loose all the oil the engine will seize?

That being said, I do agree that the designs should be as 'user proof' as reasonably possible.

To the OP, I really don't think GM wants anything that reminds people of their crushing of the EV-1s.

[stuart22]

GM should keep their hands off this mess. Separate themselves from the LEAF, separate the Volt from the LEAF. Every LEAF owner knows about the Volt and where they can buy one, some are already bailing out of their LEAFs and into a Volt.

Keep on message with the Volt, and let things fall where they may with the LEAF.

[Dan & Nan]

As I said before, I think you should post this over there. They have lots of .01% people too, probably way more than we do, and they seem to think there's a problem. QC is #'s have been posted, and almost none have done it more than a few times. Charging to 100%? It's not 100%, just like the Volt isn't 100%. The Leaf does use more of it's total capacity, but it's not 100%.

I read the main thread a few weeks ago, not once did I see any hard data or someone using lab equipment to do a full discharge to deterministically test just a battery pack to measure capacity, the only thing I saw was what appeared to be measuring battery voltage and not one of them seem to understand the voltage will vary based on temperature what this fully means.

You really should register and read their posts. There are a couple folks who were measuring voltage, but lots of folks are measuring capacity and mileage. They can see a major difference between now and when the Leaf was new. Major differences that can't simply be blamed on higher AC use.

If you know something they don't, maybe you can stop this freight train in it's tracks.

[Dan & Nan]

This is one thing that has surprised me as well when I read the MNL forum. For cripes sake, there shouldn't be a way that the owner can kill the car. Remember the Tesla's getting bricked because the battery would run down.

Seriously, these designs deserve the scorn and ridicule. There should not be a "wrong way to charge" that will kill or damage a battery.

There's tons of "QC" cars from different manufacturers through out the world. It's way too soon to blame the Leaf's capacity losses "QC" especially when you consider that there's NO ONE on the list from a cool climate. The PNW has a lot of "QC", Arizona has 3.