Actual Energy Consumption

[75vega]

What is the actual energy consumption to fully charge this vehicle? It would seem that one would have to account for energy generation (coal, gas, nuclear), stepping transformers, grid loses, and conversion back to household power to charge. Is there a rule of thumb like the power is 3/4 or 5/8 what was generated at the power plant to charge this vehicle?

Just curious. I am sure some people may be concerned that the amount of CO2 and ozone created by generating the electricity and passing it through the grid is about the same as an ICE.

[Texas]

Yes! Many people are interested. In fact, it's the number one argument naysayers use to distract people from EVs.

I can rehash what has been said a million times. Things like it's easier to clean the exhaust from one power station than to clean the exhaust from a million car exhaust pipes but that doesn't seem like a strong enough retort for some. Makes logical sense to me. I could also say that the electrical motor system in an EV is around 95% efficient compared to around 30-40% for an ICE. Nope, not good enough argument. How about that as we add more solar farms and wind farms to the grid the amount of CO2 continues to go down until we are completely on renewable resources. Nope, the naysayers say that renewables are too intermittent and can only provide 10% of base load. They don't even consider proven pumped storage hydro or any of the storage options. They simply say it is too expensive and cannot be done. Yeah they may be more expensive compared to old fossil fuel technology with it's paid-for infrastructure but how do they ignore the benefits? It seems as though the naysayers are reaching for any straw they can grab in order to find anyway to defend their religious beliefs regarding the use of non-renewable resources. It's very interesting and probably critical to how people have survived today. A person can believe in an idea or person and follow that idea to their death, even in the face of insurmountable odds. Hummmm.

Anyway, The CO2 levels for EVs, considering the whole chain, are lower. Even if they were not the electrification of the automobile will help us get out of the oil nightmare we are in. Even if that were not the case it may help us manage the eventual decline of non-renewable sources of energy. Please don't say they will not decline. They will decline because of the basic definition of non-renewable. Even that extremely conservative way of thinking is enough for us to get going.

I know that did not satisfy your question. Nothing I could say would ever satisfy some people and their beliefs. My hope is that the majority of people will understand the situation and that will be enough to get the policies and markets moving.

[75vega]

We are having issues in our area (S E Michigan) related to improving the grid - which is getting lots of resistance. My concern is that if the grid is not improved, what effect does mass vehicle electrification have on the current infrastructure?

Also, our area had strong interest in ethanol and E85, but in the past 2 years interest has gone down for a number of practical issues that still need to be over come.

I guess my ideal solution would be to find a way to turn garbage dumps into energy sources - either in generating electricity or a biodiesel. If used to generate electricity, there is still the issue of upgrading the grid - the 3 day blackout from a few years ago is still fresh in my mind.

On another practical note, I like the idea of an electric vehicle with an ICE. Who wants to get caught in a blizzard with just an electric motor?

[BigRedFed]

We are having issues in our area (S E Michigan) related to improving the grid - which is getting lots of resistance. My concern is that if the grid is not improved, what effect does mass vehicle electrification have on the current infrastructure?

Also, our area had strong interest in ethanol and E85, but in the past 2 years interest has gone down for a number of practical issues that still need to be over come.

I guess my ideal solution would be to find a way to turn garbage dumps into energy sources - either in generating electricity or a biodiesel. If used to generate electricity, there is still the issue of upgrading the grid - the 3 day blackout from a few years ago is still fresh in my mind.

On another practical note, I like the idea of an electric vehicle with an ICE. Who wants to get caught in a blizzard with just an electric motor?

Garbage dumps generate a lot of methane from the decomposing material. I have seen in the past where companies bury pipes into the dumps to tap the produced methane. The University of New Hampshire is doing just that. On NPR: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=6620706

Now, burning methane produces CO2 and H20. You burn the Methane in high efficiency engines to generate electricity. You capture the CO2 and sequester it. You capture the H20 and use it for drinking water. Later when methane production becomes low or stops, you mine your garbage dump for the metals that had been thrown away and recycle them. Then you turn it back into a garbage dump, fill it up, then do the same thing again. A completely renewable source of energy from the ever expanding amount of trash we generate.

I'll take a cut of the profit.

[Mike756]

"What is the actual energy consumption to fully charge this vehicle?"

If you google wells to wheels, you can find studies on the energy usage of various platforms. Here's one:

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/273.pdf

Looks like electric vehicles are about the lowest, and as Texas points out, we can make electricity many ways. To me there is no question that EREVs are what we need to move to.

[Jason M. Hendler]

"What is the actual energy consumption to fully charge this vehicle?"

If you google wells to wheels, you can find studies on the energy usage of various platforms. Here's one:

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/273.pdf

Looks like electric vehicles are about the lowest, and as Texas points out, we can make electricity many ways. To me there is no question that EREVs are what we need to move to.

I suspect that chart hasn't incorporated the latest breakthroughs in thin film solar, solar hydrogen generators, solar alcohol generators, etc.

[Koz]

There is a very thoughtful discussion of well to wheel efficiencies on Tesla's website. One common thing that is overlooked is the local energy mix. So, the emission issue should be looked at individually by those concerned. The energy poduction mix in most areas of the US greatly favor a grid charged vehicles versus ICE with regards to emissions. The are a select few areas where it is a tossup today, but will most likely favor EV's in the near future.

[Jason M. Hendler]

Koz,

The Tesla site is heavily 100% BEV leaning, so they don't consider the latest thin film solar, solar hydrogen generator and solar alcohol generator tech. Even if they did, they are stuck on efficiency numbers, instead of cost numbers, so they will always prefer batteries, no matter how much batteries cost.

[e3466armour]

every change in enery type creates losses... a coal / steam electrical plant is said to be around 40% efficient.....same as an internal combustion engine.

Now add electrical transmission losses ..5%, charger losses5+%, battery losses X 2 (charge and discharge)10+%, speed control losses 15%, electrical motor losses 10%, and the energy efficiency of an electrical car is probably less than 1/2 of an internal combustion engine vehicle.

And there are losses...thats why they need battery cooling, motor cooling, heatsinks ect.

Appling power directly to the wheels from the engine is by far the most efficient way.

[Texas]

every change in enery type creates losses... a coal / steam electrical plant is said to be around 40% efficient.....same as an internal combustion engine.

Now add electrical transmission losses ..5%, charger losses5+%, battery losses X 2 (charge and discharge)10+%, speed control losses 15%, electrical motor losses 10%, and the energy efficiency of an electrical car is probably less than 1/2 of an internal combustion engine vehicle.

And there are losses...thats why they need battery cooling, motor cooling, heatsinks ect.

Appling power directly to the wheels from the engine is by far the most efficient way.

Did you just pulled those numbers out of your butt? Only half as efficient? LOL. Please show us the numbers you used for that calculation! Do you work for an Oil company?

Oh for reference go to the Rocky Mountain Institute web site and check out their calculations. They figure less than 6 percent of the energy in the gasoline is used to move the vehicle and less than one percent is used to move the person!