10 GigaWatt Solar Farm for Mojave desert:

Link (http://www.pr-inside.com/largest-solar-farm-in-the-world-r686644.htm)

Interesting update on solar thermal tech:

- twin (dual) parabolic collectors and receivers
- subterranean organic salt temperature storage

The company's homepage is:

Link (http://www.esecorp.org/index.html)

Here's a Business Week article discussing the rapid growth of solar thermal power plants - second only to the growth of wind power.

Link (http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/jul2008/pi2008072_340768.htm?chan=investing_investing+inde x+page_top+stories)

The hybrid solar thermal/gas backup with steam turbines sure seems like a winner. There are huge amounts of solar thermal generation in development according to the links. This is very good and the build out times are much better than a lot of other utility scale power plant technologies. GE used to turn around small scale gas turbine plants in 8 months, if memory serves. There is a lot more to the solar thermal plants but with experience they can probably get closer to 16 months.

Indeed this type of solar farm is feasible technologically. Financially it does not cost much. Bill Gates can build it with a fraction of his fortune. We should see many of this type of operation in the future. But, we do not have to think only “GRID” when we are talking about electricity. As I mentioned elsewhere in the forums much more feasible than this type of mega project is household UPS into which we charge off-peak surplus electricity and rooftop solar panel output. Thanks to GM and other automotive companies small, high-capacity, long-life and economical batteries are about to become realty. We can make a compact household UPS using these batteries. I think a 10kWh usable capacity UPS can be made in the size of a fridge. We charge this UPS during off-peak hours at a reduced rate and come 9 O’clock in the morning switch our house from the grid to the UPS, which will be kept float-charged by the solar panels. Suppose our daily electricity usage is 30kWh the UPS and solar panel combo should be able to keep us off the grid for as long as 12 hours on sunny days. This means we are shaving the peak demands on the grid. As the efficiency of solar panels improves this duration will get longer and longer until we do not need the grid energy any longer. This distributed powering system (as opposed centralized grid system) is analogous to PC vs. mainframe. The independence from the grid means you are less vulnerable to natural disasters and manmade accidents and attacks. As the nation the US should welcome this direction, although the utility companies might not like it.

Now things are starting to roll. The size of this solar farm (10 GW) is substantial. Here are some interesting points given in the article:

"ECOSY's development cost is projected to be at 8 cents per kWh, which cost is less than all electric power generating facilities, utilizing fossil fuel.ECOSY will deliver to CA ISO grid up to 57 million megawatt hours, enough power up to 10 million homes and businesses.
ECOSY will be major contributor in curtailing GHG, as well as in meeting the mandated by 2015 33% of Renewable energy."


Now who was saying CA cannot have solar or that other states are not willing to supply them with solar? Was it OPEC SUCKS? Anyway, this is just the beginning. I expect even more huge projects announced over the next year. Once construction companies get up to speed it will only expand exponentially.

I would like to keep on saying that there is no need to build new nuke or fossil fuel power plants. NONE! I know it's totally against everything many people believe but it's a fact. We can have a completely renewable energy grid and we should be driving for that goal. Technology will only get better every year as we build more and bigger solar and wind power plants. Costs will come down as we move along the technology curve and though economies of scale.

Remember that any new fossil fuel or nuclear power plant will not produce any power for 10 years. Please keep this in mind. A solar farm can start producing in as little as one year (www.nanosolar.com). Now the thermal farm described in this article take longer because they use traditional steam power turbines and infrastructure but they can go online much faster because they can be scaled quickly by starting with one turbine and related collectors and just expanding as the plant remains operational. Nuclear power plants are a whole different animal that must be completed and certified before one kWh is generated. That takes a long time (approximately 10 years).

I just hope people can open their minds and except the reality that solar technology is ready and willing to power our future smart grid. I wish our politicians would say that we are going to build solar power plants with the equivalent power generation of 45 nuclear power plants instead. Maybe it sounds too "Green" for the average Joe. I admit that may be true. This solar power plant will do a lot to change that perception. Having a working solar power plant that generates more power than a nuclear power plant at only 8 cents per kWh will of course crush any remaining resistance. I look forward to that moment.

You put a lot of faith in a webpage. They CLAIM they can supply enough power for 10 million homes. Thats a bold statement. All it is, is a webpage. If I was you, I would buy as much of their stock as I could.

I may be able to visit the facility on my next business trip to So Cal. See what I can find out for you.......

Edit: "Remember that any new fossil fuel or nuclear power plant will not produce any power for 10 years. Please keep this in mind. " There is a post on this forum about turning over small natural gas power stations in less than one year. What is your source for making the statement ??

"A solar farm can start producing in as little as one year (www.nanosolar.com)."

They have been at it for years and no significant power is coming out of the place. Again, what is the source for you statement that " A solar farm can start producing power in......"

You can't even get a grading permit in a year. Do you know what an EIR is ??? Public hearings ??

Texas, before you dump your life savings in this investment....... Let me ask you something. You said one year to go online. I assume you mean online as in a webpage, not Gw of power. Ok, two questions.

One. How long has ECOSYS or whatever been at this ??? (1996)

Two. Right now, how much power is being generated by the facility ?? (0 Kwh, Zero)

OK, third question....... 1996 -2008 Is that more than one year ???


CAREFULLY look at their webpage. Notice the link showing the electric solar panels ?? Is their facility going to use solar panels ?? What happens when you select that link ??

Do any of their illustrations show anything of theirs ??? Nothing shown there is theirs. Beware of smoke and mirrors.......

You put a lot of faith in a webpage. They CLAIM they can supply enough power for 10 million homes. That’s a bold statement. All it is, is a webpage. If I was you, I would buy as much of their stock as I could.

I may be able to visit the facility on my next business trip to So Cal. See what I can find out for you.......


No I am not putting my faith in just this one project. There are several companies doing the same thing. Just Google "solar thermal"

Here is a quote from one link:

"Solar thermal company Ausra on Monday opened a Las Vegas factory meant to produce enough equipment each year to provide 700 megawatts of power.

The 130,000-square-foot facility is designed to manufacture massive mirrors and absorber tubes, employing 50 workers and leading to the creation of 1,400 construction jobs at solar sites.

Ausra makes utility-scale solar equipment that it says costs 30 percent to 40 percent less than photovoltaic. Its compact fresnel reflectors use relatively small amounts of steel and the same kind of glass used in building construction, according to Ausra.

"We're ready to respond now with a clean, reliable, and cost-competitive energy choice that will be an economic development machine for the country," Ausra CEO Robert Fishman said in a statement. Developers in southern Nevada are planning more than $50 billion worth of solar installations, he added."

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9980815-54.html

While this is a small installation they are easy to scale up. Just check out Ausra's site for more info. You will see that money is starting to flow now. Of course you will not be convinced until it’s way past obvious but you will become a believer or a fool with his head in the tar sand. You want immediate results with brand new technology but accept the Volt needing many years to come out. What are you thinking? This is brand new technology! Same with Nanosolar. They just started production late last year. Do you have any idea of how manufacturing works at all? Do you have any idea how hard it is to ramp up new technology?



Edit: "Remember that any new fossil fuel or nuclear power plant will not produce any power for 10 years. Please keep this in mind. " There is a post on this forum about turning over small natural gas power stations in less than one year. What is your source for making the statement ??


OK, you got me. I was only talking about large scale clean coal and nuclear power plants. Small gas power stations can be started very quickly. Just as fast as solar thermal power plants because they are about the same size. In fact, I assume natural gas will be the back up fuel used to keep the turbines running when the molten salt storage system runs out and demand continues. I expect the gas to be phased out as it becomes much more expensive in the future. Remember, Natural gas is a non-renewable resource. Do you feel what is going on with oil? Well, natural gas is not far behind.



“A solar farm can start producing in as little as one year (www.nanosolar.com)."

They have been at it for years and no significant power is coming out of the place. Again, what is the source for you statement that " A solar farm can start producing power in......"


Hello? Did you go to www.nanosolar.com and check out their blog? He talks about the one year time-frame. As for time-frames, let's start with this:

"SPRINGFIELD, Mo. — Senator John McCain said Wednesday that he wanted 45 new nuclear reactors built in the United States by 2030, a course he called “as difficult as it is necessary.”"

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/us/politics/19nuke.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=politics&adxnnlx=1215508534-Al0GZjooLruJTOG4sFN21w

That is the time frames we are dealing with when we talk about nuclear reactors. Partly from all of the regulations and certifications needed. Partly from people filing lawsuits to stop these things. Partly from the complexity of the plants and their related waste storage systems, security systems (remember that this fuel would make a terrorist very happy). And most importantly because the government has to pay for the cost of the nuclear power plant. No company is going to invest that much capital on such a risky venture (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=2JkrvSaL7-w).

Here is another one link that will give you an idea as to what it is going to take to build a nuclear power plant in the US:

"It takes at least 10 years for a nuclear power project to be
completed successfully. Along the way, much needs to be
considered … and done."

http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Magazines/Bulletin/Bull491/49104782628.pdf

We can go back and forth with links but most rational people understand that it will take a lot longer to have a nuclear power plant planned, approved, built, certified, secured, etc. Than a small self-contained solar thermal module placed in the desert. Come on, are you really going to argue that? Sure there are problems with all government planning process. However, you fail to understand that when we are in deep %$^& that many of these projects are going to be fast tracked. Did you read in the news how the feds were going to stop more applications from being processed for solar power plants on federal land? Well, how long did that last? More money is going to be thrown their way and they are going to be approving like crazy, unless we are crazy. Let's think about this. Approve a solar power plant in the desert or a nuclear power plant... Which one is going to be easier to get by Americans? Anyone? Anyone?

Clean coal plants are not simple self-contained modules that can be scaled easily. They require huge systems to capture and sequester the massive amounts of CO2 that they emit. Yes, that requirement may be thrown away if we get in trouble but they will still require much more of the final project to be complete before they start pumping out energy. They are not modular! Get it? Think Lego blocks. PV solar is very much like that. Solar thermal is not as much and closer to small natural gas powerplants, as you mentioned. However, large clean coal and nuclear power plants are different animals all together.



You can't even get a grading permit in a year. Do you know what an EIR is ??? Public hearings ??

Texas, before you dump your life savings in this investment....... Let me ask you something. You said one year to go online. I assume you mean online as in a webpage, not Gw of power. Ok, two questions.

One. How long has ECOSYS or whatever been at this ??? (1996)

Two. Right now, how much power is being generated by the facility ?? (0 Kwh, Zero)

OK, third question....... 1996 -2008 Is that more than one year ???

CAREFULLY look at their webpage. Notice the link showing the electric solar panels ?? Is their facility going to use solar panels ?? What happens when you select that link ??

Do any of their illustrations show anything of theirs ??? Nothing shown there is theirs. Beware of smoke and mirrors.......

As I said, this is but one project of many that are being built right now or soon to begin. How about I invest in solar power and you invest in nuclear fission. Want to guess who will make out better in 10 years? How about 30 years? Oh and don't worry about me. I research things very deeply before I decide on my investments. I have come to the conclusion that solar is going to be a huge global market. If another technology comes out that looks to be a better solution I will act accordingly.

Texas, you make great points, but OPEC Sucks understands the insanity of current construction permit processes, especially here in California.

See Link (http://www.redding.com/news/2008/jul/07/even-windmills/)

You answer nothing and propose more. Kind of like an amateur in forensic debate. Endless to answer. Only more questions. Except when called to task, you only dodge and question more.

Other than proposed on the web info, digital reality, is there any tangible Solar power you care to speak of ??? I posted this info for California. After a full generation of eco friendly fools, in California, it is insignificant.

Specifically, the web page you boast about, it's all BS. They only have pictures of other peoples' property, power lines, and anything else. You did not address a single point of contention. Its only web pages on the internet. Do you not recognize a sham ?? Do you buy on EBAY ? Sell ?? Why isn't it front page news on the Wall Street Journal ?? Your example, why doesn't Bill Gates jump on it ?? Have you handled any real money in your entire life ??

It hit 112 F here and solar has been around for over thirty years here in Ca. It was the solution in the 70's, the 80's, the 90's blah blah blah. And it still is not denting the grid you speak of. It will not balance with what an 2-ton Ac draws. Care to wager ?? It will not pay off my install on my house in fifty years. And I have 1,400 Sf optimum roof for it. Do you want to buy ?? Do you wish to wager on that ? Put up or shut up.

My house, or your house if you have one. Do the math, the dollars. Then PAY UP !! If you can't then please stop telling other people to pull their head out of their &&^%. Because until you do, then your just a blow fish. I want to see you drop $20,000 or more and pay off the interest. What do you say to that ??

I can get solar here, and spin my meter backwards. PG & E. Go search it, fool. I would love to. Just like you. But I am going to send my son to college instead.

If I have to, I can post quotes for solar residential. They are ten (10X) the crap you post up. And they do not, REPEAT, do not include the cost of install. Real numbers. Oh, and contractors are cheap. Its a waste of time. Its already done on this board. It doesn't pay off in our lifetime. All you do is look at BS on the web, and argue. Have you installed solar on your house ? Why not ?? Explain now or go away. If cant do it, don't spout off and crow about it. Do you own a house ?? If you don't, then, please, reserve your comments to something you are qualified to talk about. Because to this point, all you are is an internet recital device. Of bad, information. When you grow up, after some financial lessons, you might learn the difference between philosophy and reality. The former founder of Greenpeace speaks,,,, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401209.html

And I hate the Washington Post.

Respectfully Yours.....

From Sunny California, the home of Eco Friendly Solar Power.

OPEC SUCKS is angry.

You answer nothing and propose more. Kind of like an amateur in forensic debate. Endless to answer. Only more questions. Except when called to task, you only dodge and question more.

Other than proposed on the web info, digital reality, is there any tangible Solar power you care to speak of ??? I posted this info for California. After a full generation of eco friendly fools, in California, it is insignificant.

Specifically, the web page you boast about, it's all BS. They only have pictures of other peoples' property, power lines, and anything else. You did not address a single point of contention. Its only web pages on the internet. Do you not recognize a sham ?? Do you buy on EBAY ? Sell ?? Why isn't it front page news on the Wall Street Journal ?? Your example, why doesn't Bill Gates jump on it ?? Have you handled any real money in your entire life ??

It hit 112 F here and solar has been around for over thirty years here in Ca. It was the solution in the 70's, the 80's, the 90's blah blah blah. And it still is not denting the grid you speak of. It will not balance with what an 2-ton Ac draws. Care to wager ?? It will not pay off my install on my house in fifty years. And I have 1,400 Sf optimum roof for it. Do you want to buy ?? Do you wish to wager on that ? Put up or shut up.

My house, or your house if you have one. Do the math, the dollars. Then PAY UP !! If you can't then please stop telling other people to pull their head out of their &&^%. Because until you do, then your just a blow fish. I want to see you drop $20,000 or more and pay off the interest. What do you say to that ??

I can get solar here, and spin my meter backwards. PG & E. Go search it, fool. I would love to. Just like you. But I am going to send my son to college instead.

If I have to, I can post quotes for solar residential. They are ten (10X) the crap you post up. And they do not, REPEAT, do not include the cost of install. Real numbers. Oh, and contractors are cheap. Its a waste of time. Its already done on this board. It doesn't pay off in our lifetime. All you do is look at BS on the web, and argue. Have you installed solar on your house ? Why not ?? Explain now or go away. If cant do it, don't spout off and crow about it. Do you own a house ?? If you don't, then, please, reserve your comments to something you are qualified to talk about. Because to this point, all you are is an internet recital device. Of bad, information. When you grow up, after some financial lessons, you might learn the difference between philosophy and reality. The former founder of Greenpeace speaks,,,, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401209.html

And I hate the Washington Post.

Respectfully Yours.....

From Sunny California, the home of Eco Friendly Solar Power.



You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Your post was so incoherent I suspect you were drinking when you wrote it. I thought we were talking about large scale solar farms using solar thermal (or even solar PV). You bring in residential? That's a whole different animal. Oh by the way, if you read any of my past posts you would know that I did install a 3kW system on my house and it already paid for itself. I did get a good rebate but it also used older technology. The biggest problem with residential is that there is no way to get your value out if you have to move early. I'm sorry you don't understand solar technology, basic finance, manufacturing technology, etc. You are supporting your arguments using old technology and can't even admit that there are new solar technologies in full production. You claim that you can't buy them in stores. You expect to snap your fingers and the factory fairy will ramp up to millions of units overnight.

Clearly it's a waste of time debating with you because you don't understand many things. Did you read the news of Ausra's opening of their 700 MW solar thermal plant? Hello? That's 700 MW per year! Once they get the bugs out and ramp up it's a simple matter to just replicate that factory. You can't replicate before you get the line working. If you worked one day in a manufacturing environment you would understand that.

I suggest you sit back, take anther drink and let the big boys bring out the technology as fast as they can. You can't even realize that solar before was not cost comparative to the extremely cheap fossil fuels in global climate that did not have all of the political and geopolitical problems we face today. How about the environmental issues? Do you live under a rock? Anyway, how about we agree to disagree. You will see these solar power plants and factories going up all over the place and you can scream all you want. It's coming and it will come at an exponential rate. Face the fact and chill out.

... Oh by the way, if you read any of my past posts you would know that I did install a 3kW system on my house and it already paid for itself. I did get a good rebate but it also used older technology...

Hey Texas,

Most of your posts and links have truly been helpful to me, no kidding. I am really a fan of solar and very much promoting it, and so dying to install solar PV, but I never was able to show how it could be economically viable, given the default alternative of no solar PV. Since you did it yourself, I applaud you. By doing it yourself, perhaps you can provide me with realistic data for the following:

Your total Cost of Installing a 3 kW system before rebates, including the value of labor.
Who is the supplier and installer? I may need to sign them up for my own residential solar PV project. Am looking for viable alternatives, seriously.
What is your total rebates?
What is the average utility price hike in your area? ( I can obtain this data from a very reliable source, but am lazy at the moment )
How much kWH does your system produce per year?
What is the performance deterioration of your solar PV after 25 years?
What is the life span and cost of your replacement inverters?
What is the yearly average cost of your electricity at per kWH basis? You can cite the price/kWH at higher tier and also lower tier. I will assume that your current price is at lower tier because of solar PV, and that it was higher per kWH before the solar PV.

I aced all of my financial, math, physics, statistics, and engineering classes, so rest assured I will be able to tell with 100% accuracy if the project will be feasible for your case or my case. I promise to show all financial calculations in determining the feasibility of residential solar PV. I'd gladly share with the group all the details of the calculations and I will keep it simple and straightforward.

Your home solar paid for itself ?? How ? 3Kw ? It will not pay for itself in my location for at least a generation. Joe Real has done the math and shown it here on this forum. I have not seen yours.

There are no large scale solar power plants on line in California. On the web there are, but not on the grid. That is all. If you agree to not debate, thats fine. I agree also.

We probably agree on most things, more than we disagree on. Politics, energy consumption, a host of others. But telling people that they pull their ideas out of their...... or that they have been drinking is not conducive to constructive discussion. I refuse to follow hype and cyber existence. There is so much disinformation. Let me put it this way. You firmly believe, as do I, that the market will ultimately dictate. I am not convinced, for the same reasons that you are, that solar power will be a large scale solution for the majority of US citizens. Not in my lifetime. Not even for a modern house in an optimum location with a grid to sell power to. The highly touted solar farm is nothing more than desert sand and some pictures of existing utilities, bunnies, and politically correct verbiage. The information from the link you posted on solar energy for a Minnesota winter shows solar electricity which is greater that what can be generated in a California system, in the summer. And on and on. The solar installations here are an expensive extravagance. Simply consider that you are on a solar bandwagon, so its hard to find agreement with an alternative. It would be very hard to invest that much and not support the investment. I would rather drop the money, and it is substantial, on the VOLT than the home solar system.

Man, some people are thick headed! As I have stated in many of my previous posts, installing old solar technology on your home without a great rebate is not a great idea if you are doing it only for financial reasons. I did it because I love solar and the rebate was so juicy that I was willing to go for it. I would have paid even more because I wanted to get going on the research end of things.

Joe Real, I know what you are trying to do and I agree with you. In fact, I even gave up on my solar dreams after I had my system installed because I realized that the financial model and current costs would prohibit mass amounts of solar to be installed without the generous rebates. My system produced approximately 85 to 90 percent of what I calculated given the rating of the panels, the efficiency losses of the PV Power inverter (10 year warrantee - it did go bad at first because it was a new model but they replaced it for free and there were no problems after that), and the solar charts provided on the Internet. You say you are too lazy to look up the information so that speaks volumes. If you look at the history of Texas there were some serious rebate programs. Just Google and the information will be yours. With this rebate the numbers were acceptable. The warrantee on the panels is 25 years guaranteed to produce around 80% (I don't have the guarantee on me at the moment) of rated output. If they don't produce that amount then you can have them swapped out. I have not seen any noticeable decrease. It’s a good idea to wash your panels once in a while. I wash my panels when I clean the gutters or when I need to go on the roof for any reason.

Again! I tell people to wait until the panels and inverter prices come down and to make sure they plan to stay in their houses long enough for the finances to work out. I agree with you on residential solar problems! I have always said so! I have suggested that the utilities own the solar installation and do the maintenance. That way the owner of the house is basically renting out their land for a guaranteed utility price. Guaranteed transfer of ownership would also reduce the risk of the project.

Forgive me if I say this again. I thought we were talking about large scale solar power plants located in the desert. They get land cheap and a guaranteed payment for the energy over a long contract period. Something like 25 years. I thought we were also talking about the newest technology like that from Ausra. You know, the company that just opened a 700 MW per year factory on Monday (did anyone check out the robots welding the collector frames?). Are you all claiming that is just a scam and nothing is going on? It is happening. No, it won't happen in a snap of the fingers but it’s coming. Why not just relax and wait? Then you can come back and say, "Sorry Texas, you were right."

One final note. I personally think we have a higher priority than building out alternative energy power plants. While I think we should be building out these power plants as quickly as possible we need to fix our oil problems first. We don’t use any significant amount of oil for our grid (Hawaii is the exception) so putting up massive alternative power plants or building 45 nuclear power plants will not change our oil situation (or the market price). We must keep our eye on what’s really important - reduce our addiction to imported oil. That is what is going to crush us. That is what will drive us to war. The very fact that our country is not dealing with this problem as a national emergency shows just how screwed up we are. Thus, relax about residential solar and start screaming about getting a real energy plan. One that puts top priority on fixing our oil problems.

OPEC SUCKS may indeed be angry, but that post he linked to bears reading.

I truly agree with you there Texas! Especially the part that we need to wait a little bit more for us residential group. With the confluence of oversupply of Silicon and the ramping up of various thin film solar panel productions of various companies, and most of the technical analysts predicting prices to go down, the price is nearing the break even point!

On a massive scale, the world needed slightly more than a cubic mile of oil per year but it can be theoretically replaced with Solar Power plants, the size, roughly half of Mojave Desert. And we do have plenty of desert lands available, not counting the other unproductive unarable lands.

Assuming 24% solar PV efficiency or better, we roughly needed 34,068 square miles of land. To give everyone an idea of how big this is, it would be about a perfect square 185 miles on each side.

The Sahara desert is 3.5 million square miles and expanding, Arabian Desert is almost 1 million square miles, Great Basin desert of USA is 190,000 square miles, Takla Makan desert is 105,000 square miles, Atacama desert is 54,000 square miles, and the Mojave desert is 77,220 square miles. Talk about potential there.

Of course, solar PV currently is very expensive, at $1/watt the world would need to shell out $21 Trillion! With proper economies of scale when everyone cooperates instead of greed, the costs can be brought down to $5.3 Trillion. But then again, why should we use solar PV as the only subsitute? The newly proven work horse is now Solar Thermal Power plants. It is cheaper (less than half, but depends on assumptions for now) and quicker (requires only a quarter of the time, also again, a lot of assumptions but defensible) to build solar thermal power plants compared to nuclear power plants that can have the same capacity. Solar thermal power plants uses molten salt technology to store excess power during the day, and use them to run steam turbines at night, giving a 24 x 7 power supply, much better controlled to match demands compared to nuclear power plants. The peak demands are matched perfectly with solar thermal power plants with excess to boot, to store and use for evening consumption.

Again, standard disclaimer, you don't need to believe all of this calculations.

Here's my first run of my calcs :

1 cubic mile of oil is 26.2 billion barrels at $143/barrel, that costs $3.747 Trillion.

At solar PV of $1/watt, the world needed to invest $21 Trillion, and we can pay off our solar investment in 5.6 years and rid of oil energy forever. Realistically with economies of scale we can bring down the cost of solar power to just $0.25/watt, then the pay off would just be one and a half years.

It can be done if we don't succumb to economic greed.

Here's my first run of my calcs :

1 cubic mile of oil is 26.2 billion barrels at $143/barrel, that costs $3.747 Trillion.

At solar PV of $1/watt, the world needed to invest $21 Trillion, and we can pay off our solar investment in 5.6 years and rid of oil energy forever. Realistically with economies of scale we can bring down the cost of solar power to just $0.25/watt, then the pay off would just be one and a half years.

It can be done if we don't succumb to economic greed.



Just remember that oil and solar energy are two different things. Oil is used for transportation and petroleum based products like pesticides, fertilizers, plastics, etc.

For solar to replace oil you need to change the transportation infrastructure to one that can use grid electricity. Hello Volt. Hello EV. I hope people remember this very important point when they are debating issues and priorities.

McCain makes this mistake when he brings up his plan to build out 45 nuclear power plants to help lower the price of gas. How does this reduce our oil usage? It doesn't! They are not directly related! We only use oil for 2% of our electricity generation (Hawaii is the exception - they use oil for 90% of their energy needs).

Particularly why I am interested in EV type vehicles and solar at the same time.

Here is our neighboring local Utility. See what you think of this link. Some of the costs can certainly be adjusted to be more realistic. I would make a bold leap and challenge anyone to find a utility that has more residential solar installs in it's grid.

http://smud.cleanpowerestimator.com/smud.htm

We have Pacific Gas and Electric, not SMUD, and its more expensive, so the pay back would be quicker, i.e more favorable to solar. I wasn't able to find out quickly what PG&E's reverse pay is, what they pay when your meter spins backwords. Trust that they will get the best deal off your hard earned work and money. For example, we are billed at a tier rate. And over half our bill is at higher rates, double the base rate. I doubt that they compensate at anything other than the base rate.

I continue to drink ..........Kool Aid.......Solar Cool aid.

If you are in South Texas, mexico really ??, then the solar equation would be even more favorable. But for me, as I stated, it is really a cosmetic adventure. Drink up. Not angry, just watching the tilt meter to see when it goes off.

I propose starting a new thread on residential solar, and information could be exchanged there. If that thread is extant, then let's find it and get it going.

And Texas, the Cowboys suck !!! ;)

The best I could do was 22.4 years .......Sizes ranged fom 1.8 to 3.6 kwH systems. Their costs are probably based on the average of their contractor installed systems. Homeowner could chop this way down, probably 30-40%. But it is a real existing baseline developed by an established utility committed to clean power, in theroy.

This is what I mean about hype. The Ausra link is about a factory that makes solar products. Its not a solar facility.
Did you read the news of Ausra's opening of their 700 MW solar thermal plant? Hello? That's 700 MW per year!Those products in a full year have the potential to produce 700mw. Ausra doesn't generate any power itself. Do you still feel so strongly about your condescending remarks ?? I could make few right now. Would you like to share a drink while we are on topic ?? I know what you meant, but consider the sit back and chill advice goes both ways.

This is what I mean about hype. The Ausra link is about a factory that makes solar products. Its not a solar facility. Those products in a full year have the potential to produce 700mw. Ausra doesn't generate any power itself. Do you still feel so strongly about your condescending remarks ?? I could make few right now. Would you like to share a drink while we are on topic ?? I know what you meant, but consider the sit back and chill advice goes both ways.


You got me. Please insert the word factory at the end of my sentence. Of course you don't understand that a factory that can pump put 700 MW of solar panels each year in an automated manner is much better than a 700 MW solar power plant but I think most people do. The automated factory can produce solar collectors cheaper by way of economies of scale. Sure there are solar power plants done in the past. Most are hand built and very expensive.

You are still stuck in the old way of doing solar. I'm not too worried. You will soon be unable to ignore the success. The wheels are turning, money is flowing, factories are producing.

It's kind of like how many people we get talking about old EVs and how they don't want a golf cart. They simply cannot make that jump. You still see expensive silicon cells that need semiconductor fabs or hand built solar collectors that were competing against fossil fuels where no environmental, political or geopolitical problems existed. That is why I tell you to just sit back and wait. You keep giving calculations based on 30 year old technology and competitive costing.

Back to the original topic, as you wish. The most promising thing I got out of the links was one that showed solar potential (?) of the area. The location is certainly a hot spot, and I can attest to the fact that the sun is out there and in force, having worked at nearby Edwards AFB in winter and summer. The Garlock Fault trace is clearly visible, even in the solar map ?!!??!! The location is also within spitting distance of the Los Angeles Megalopolis. So transmission distance shouldn't be a problem. I'm all for it and hope it can achieve economic success. I am still skeptical of the potential for other, darker colder latitudes. I hope the nuclear paranoia is outweighed by the reality of what energy independence will entail. Last I got you. Peace out.

Have you found any additional info about the (parabolic mirror) project ? Any scale test models, pilot tests that sort of thing ? I realize there is a lot of enthusiasm and exuberance for this type of development, but I see more fault than favor, I guess. Call it cautious optimism.

Germany is a real case. It is discussed here because it is touted as a leader in solar power. I was just talking to someone over the weekend that moved here from there. He paid OVER 55% in TAXES. The population is actually declining, attendant with the birthrate. A different dynamic than our way of life which is currently predicated on endless growth for economic survival.

#14 Texas
"One final note. I personally think we have a higher priority than building out alternative energy power plants. While I think we should be building out these power plants as quickly as possible we need to fix our oil problems first. We don’t use any significant amount of oil for our grid (Hawaii is the exception) so putting up massive alternative power plants or building 45 nuclear power plants will not change our oil situation (or the market price). We must keep our eye on what’s really important - reduce our addiction to imported oil. That is what is going to crush us. That is what will drive us to war. The very fact that our country is not dealing with this problem as a national emergency shows just how screwed up we are. Thus, relax about residential solar and start screaming about getting a real energy plan. One that puts top priority on fixing our oil problems."

Here's a plan. One of the biggest oilmen from your state has a plan to our oil problem, using guess what.... SOLAR AND WIND!!!

This is a man that has made BILLIONS on oil.

Check out the link and watch his video.

http://www.pickensplan.com/

#14 Texas
"One final note. I personally think we have a higher priority than building out alternative energy power plants. While I think we should be building out these power plants as quickly as possible we need to fix our oil problems first. We don’t use any significant amount of oil for our grid (Hawaii is the exception) so putting up massive alternative power plants or building 45 nuclear power plants will not change our oil situation (or the market price). We must keep our eye on what’s really important - reduce our addiction to imported oil. That is what is going to crush us. That is what will drive us to war. The very fact that our country is not dealing with this problem as a national emergency shows just how screwed up we are. Thus, relax about residential solar and start screaming about getting a real energy plan. One that puts top priority on fixing our oil problems."

Here's a plan. One of the biggest oilmen from your state has a plan to our oil problem, using guess what.... SOLAR AND WIND!!!

This is a man that has made BILLIONS on oil.

Check out the link and watch his video.

http://www.pickensplan.com/



Yes, yes. We have been talking about it for weeks. However, We could just start converting our cars to run NG today and import NG as we need it. It's not like the infrastructure is going to change quickly. Think about it. So yeah, build out your NG cars and busses, get more hybrids and BEV on the road and transition to duel fuel when appropriate. We need to use any and all options we have so we can move down the technology curves and see what works best.

People think that using 1st generation biofuels was a waste of time and a disaster. Hardly! It showed us what will not work and why. It also started our infrastructure moving forward so as 2nd generation biofuels get ready for volume production the transition will move faster. Again, everything! As the world begins to realize how big a problem we are in for governments, companies and individuals will be more motivated to get working to solve the problem.

As we wait for this motivated pain to show it's ugly head why don't we get going on a national plan? Why not put in place the system to handle this problem the best way we can?

Even if the oil crisis never shows up (highly doubtful) there will still be the need for massive projects to get people to work after our economy goes into deep recession due to massive energy use reductions (demand destruction).

Even if all that doesn't happen we still need a great plan to start working on our new smart grid, reduction of environmental pollution, etc. In short, our energy policy is a complete mess.

Can anyone please give me a good reason why we don't need to start working on a national energy plan? Our current infrastructure is falling apart and is an embarrassment. All of our nuke plants are over 30 years old and are not likely to get safer and more reliable with age.

Anyway, I wish Mr. Boone all the luck in the world. I hope he makes a ton of money for a very successful project. At least somebody is doing something that make sense. For those who think he is in it only for the money. Ha! Like he needs more money or that he needs to prove anything. I'm guessing he wants to fix the mess his country is in. He is looking around and saying, "My God! This country is full of idiots! I'm too old to be worrying about this but it seems like the country is being run by bozo the clown." Pitiful.

From the link............


Pickens' Mesa put down $2 billion for wind turbines at GE last month.

The Boone man is going in. I don't think he throws money away.

I don't think you really meant that our power infrastructure is falling apart and an embarassment. Rather, it will be wholly inadequate for future, large scale transmission from far away sources. Like from the Texas Panhandle to parts back east.

If he builds it, they will come.

T. Boone Pickens is showing leadership, while the leftist intellectuals ponder their navels.

I don't think you really meant that our power infrastructure is falling apart and an embarassment.

No, I really mean it!

If any power transmission system falls apart, it fails. People are paying the bill for that service. If it does not deliver, a system will not pay. Gas, electric, liquid. It will either short out, or leak and explode. Anyone that reads this. Think about it and what Tex said. Seen any power blowing off ?? Any explosions or electrical fires at the crib ?? Any petroleum pooling around your place ? Has your natural gas flow to your house stopped ?? If it leaks or falls apart, the company that owns it has to fix it. This is totally stupid. What I said was it may be inadequate for large scale future needs...... Tex is saying it's falling apart and an embarassment. Thats unfounded and sensationalist. This web server is operating on the such a grid.

If any power transmission system falls apart, it fails. People are paying the bill for that service. If it does not deliver, a system will not pay. Gas, electric, liquid. It will either short out, or leak and explode. Anyone that reads this. Think about it and what Tex said. Seen any power blowing off ?? Any explosions or electrical fires at the crib ?? Any petroleum pooling around your place ? Has your natural gas flow to your house stopped ?? If it leaks or falls apart, the company that owns it has to fix it. This is totally stupid. What I said was it may be inadequate for large scale future needs...... Tex is saying it's falling apart and an embarassment. Thats unfounded and sensationalist. This web server is operating on the such a grid.



I think this video will give you a small idea of the problems with our electrical grid infrastructure. It’s a little cheezy but you can find a lot more in a short amount of time.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=gVM_ujuaWHI

Now I can post links to the rolling black-outs and brown-outs that are continuously going on in California or for the massive grid failure we had that cut power to over 50 million people that was blamed on a fallen branch. Yes, a branch. It was clear that it was not so much a branch but that we hit a point where the demand reached almost 100 capacity. It hit at the hottest part of a hot summer day at 4:13 pm.

You can search Google all over and they will tell you how investment in grid infrastructure is at a dismal level. There is some hope as seen at the end of the video when talking about the new smart grid. I guess we will see what happens. Again, our grid is old, falling apart, and is in need of serious upgrades, especially if we are going to get serious about adding huge amounts of renewables.

Oh and my old car in college was literally falling apart as I drove it right into the ground. There was eventually that, "I'm not parking it... I'm abandoning it." moment. It did break down once in a while at the most inconvenient times (before a major exam - water pump on the highway) etc. I could have dumped thousands of dollars into it to get it more reliable but it was a much better investment to just buy a better car. That is the same situation our national electrical grid is in. Exactly. I don't even need to sugar coat it for you. Yeah, it's that bad and will not take us to a future of renewable sustainability where energy is the new currency. OPECSUCKS, what are you smoking?

Whether the vulnerability has already been exploited or not is irrelevant. This is a huge problem! Major history book stuff. The hole (the complete lack of transparency, oversight, iphone (http://www.qqhee.com) accountability and proof of correct results that is happening with voting machines) must be patched.

Glad you are OK and the Hurricane didn't knock you out. Pretty impressive demonstration of wind power, eh ??

Glad you are OK and the Hurricane didn't knock you out. Pretty impressive demonstration of wind power, eh ??



If you are being sincere then heck, it was just a slight breeze. If you are being facetious then I will say that my falling apart car made it though a blizzard with no problems at all. It did however break down on a beautiful summer afternoon. ;)

Saw on the tube a brief discussion of how hurricanes distribute heat from the low to the higher latitudes. The energy transported from start to finish in one tropical storm exceeds all of man's energy production for a year.

Saw on the tube a brief discussion of how hurricanes distribute heat from the low to the higher latitudes. The energy transported from start to finish in one tropical storm exceeds all of man's energy production for a year.

So does 10 minutes of solar energy hitting the earth 24/7. ;)

That is a subtle hint to the cause of global warming. :)

Jason, the Links Died....

From the Land of Mirrors Webpage...........

"About Us"


Not Found

The requested URL /aboutese.html was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

Maybe its just a computer internet problem, but there is this message from MacGyver......



Message from the ESE' CEO We decided not to elaborate
about our technology, inventions, proprietary prototype designs for
our facilities, viable systems and components and therefore our
web site will not disclose anything more than herein posted.

and,


ESE was issued Master Case No. 183020181 on 8/22/2008 by the United State Copyright Office, United States Library of Congress, under which, all of PDE' c/o ESE technology, proprietary designs , systems and components are pending copyright registration. (Identical to Patent Pending. Being "Embodiment Into One Mass")

They pulled all the information about the project from their web page. Anyone know what happened.......

:eek:

PG&E has signed to buy substantial solar power. For 240,000 homes, not 10 million as ESE Boasts. If they spend, they will come..... This seems realistic.

http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20080814-907257.html?mod=wsjcrmain

:)

Compare this with ESE's claim:


ECOSY will deliver to CA ISO grid up to 57 million megawatt hours, enough power up to 10 million homes and businesses.

But, don't count your chickens just yet, the politicians may weigh in and have the last laugh.


Both projects are contingent upon the extension of the federal investment tax credit for renewable energy and processes to expedite transmission needs.

Revised web page.....http://www.esecorp.org/developments.htm

No longer 10gw but around 262 mw. All still in design and development stage. So....... as I said above. Nothing. Zero. Still, I wish them luck. :rolleyes:

Texas, will you scan and post your November Electric bill so that you can illustrate the savings therein ? Just blackout your sensitive data, and post the picture to your website, then link it here.

From 10GW to 262MW - a slight reduction in capacity to a mere 2.6% of their initial value . . . :rolleyes:

Thats what I got from the revised, new web site. YRMV My Math sucks. The links therein did not work for me. The summary wattage came from the two pics with captions. They only sum about 260mw. Someone ( utilities ?) is in for a world of SHIATT, a really rude shock when California utilities can't meet our green energy mandates. I suspect California will be importing juice from ??????????? Still plenty of time to add four new reactors at the two existing facilities, and electro start Rancho Seco here in Sacramento. There's another 5 GW by 2018. For solar, the market will be there, by law. But they better start building.

OPEC Sucks,

I believe Ausra ran into the problem of water requirements for a 10 GigaWatt solar thermal steam turbine plant - the desert is a great place for sun, but a bad place for water.

Another problem is financing. There is no capital available at the moment for that large of an installation, so they have to pay as they go, which means a few hundred MegaWatts at a time to earn the capital to continue.

It keeps shrinking............. :(

http://www.pr-inside.com/solar-farm-to-seek-permit-from-r965995.htm

Final size requested on the permit...............49 mW. Not 10 Gig. Wow !! Lotta zeros in the downsize.

Edit : If you look at the original link Jason provided, none of the fantastic claims made by the ESE Corp can be realized in any foreseable future. Ice cubes, lakes and streams areas, on and on. If Eestor is Eescam, then this is Heckle and Jeckle. Why don'tthey jsut throw up about 6 of these and call it a day ??

http://www.power-technology.com/projects/Seville-Solar-Tower/images/1-seville.jpg

Ausra Update: Layoffs Confirmed and A Change of Business Plans

Link (http://greenlight.greentechmedia.com/2009/01/29/ausra-update-layoffs-confirmed-and-change-of-business-plans-1039/)

Ausra will build off successes supplying steam generating equipment to agriculture and oil/mineral extraction enterprises. Ausra completed a 5 MW facility in California for the extraction of domestic oil (preventing the loss of oil previously used to generate the steam), so it will continue chasing those opportunities.

The San Jose Mercury News has a better article:

Link (http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_11576208)

They state that instead of building a 600 MW facility, they will build 12 50 MW facilities directly to private industry and utilities.

I think this sums it up best:

"Ausra has lost out on some of the big deals to Brightsource Energy and others. Thus, it’s selling solar steam equipment to people who just need equipment or want to wallow in what might have been."


Why did they lose is unknown. Maybe their technology was too expensive or their competitors were just better. Maybe it's the credit crunch, etc. If it's just the credit crunch then that's a shame because we really need alternative energy to be developed. Since it's not directly helping to transition away from petroleum usage I can understand that it's not the highest priority problem and thus has to wait it's turn. Hopefully they will have enough funding to keep the development of this technology and their manufacturing capacity moving forward.

Texas,

I read that line, and it seems very unprofessional, especially if you read the San Jose Merc's coverage that states they will move on 12 50 MW projects instead of 1 600 MW project.

I believe it is entirely the credit crunch and the regulatory process that makes these smaller, privately funded projects more appealing in this financial environment.

[QUOTE]Specifically, the web page you boast about, it's all BS./QUOTE] :) And the texan returns from Washington to his native land.....

Hi,

Relying on coal oil and natural gas endangers our future. Toxic pollution global climate changes and the knowledge of diminishing fuel supplies is causing social unrest but we are adding to all this every time we use electricity. Instead of continually using fossil fuels that are unsustainable we should be looking to transform our world economy and global warming by using the alternative renewable energy that's so abundant on our planet, namely solar energy.

Turn your computer off now. Don't turn it on again.