Has anyone crunched the numbers?

Following the recommended GM maintenance schedules, it would be interesting to compare the cost of maintenance over say 5 yrs for the Volt and a comparable GM gas-powered car ... like the Cruze perhaps?

Eric

The two areas that are going to run much lower costs are oil changes and brake repair. If you drive mostly electric, expect to go the maximum 2 years between oil changes. With the minimal regenerative braking on my '05 Prius, now with 100,000 miles, I've never had to do any brake maintenance. I expect the Volt, with its stronger regen, to do the same.

Of course, if you drive in Sport mode, you may have to buy more tires..... :D YMMV

WVhybrid

Just pick up the November Issue of Car and Driver Magazine. There is a nice comparo article already done for you.

Kiplinger has also done an analysis of the total cost of ownership for many different cars. The Cruze is about $1800 more over five years. The BMW 3 is about $20,000 more.

My guess is that these numbers will turn out to be very unfavorable estimates for the Volt and that the actual costs of the Volt will be much lower than estimated. The Volt, and other EVs with a battery that holds up, will have very resale values much higher than ICE vehicles. Just think about two five year old cars, one of which costs $2000/year to gas up and one which costs $200/year to charge up. How much more are you going to pay for the alternative which is cheaper to run? We see this now with the difference in resale value between cars that get good and bad mileage, but those differences are far less pronounced that what we'll see with EVs vs. ICEs.

I will!

When time comes to replace/repair regenerative brakes ..... cost must far exceed the cost of conventional ones?


Just pick up the November Issue of Car and Driver Magazine. There is a nice comparo article already done for you.

I will!

When time comes to replace/repair regenerative brakes ..... cost must far exceed the cost of conventional ones?
Perhaps your tongue was in your cheek here, but there's no physical "regenerative" brakes. Regenerative braking is merely a mechanical resistance to the rotation of the electric motors due to magnetic fields created within the assembly. This resistance SLOWS the car, so think of it as magnetic braking- there's NOTHING to wear out! The Volt still has conventional disc brake pads, but since they are not utilized as much (due to this regenerative braking) they will last much longer.

In the end the Volt's mainetnece cost will be MUCH cheaper than the Cruze and even less than the Leaf! (due to certain "historical baggage" wiithin Nissan's maintenance schedule)

WOT

In the end the Volt's mainetnece cost will be MUCH cheaper than the Cruze and even less than the Leaf! (due to certain "historical baggage" wiithin Nissan's maintenance schedule)

WOT

Can you describe the "certain historical baggage" ... I do get asked about leaf vs Volt and until now I've presumed the maintenance for the Leaf would be less (since it is simpler).

Perhaps your tongue was in your cheek here, but there's no physical "regenerative" brakes. Regenerative braking is merely a mechanical resistance to the rotation of the electric motors due to magnetic fields created in he assembly. This resistance SLOWS the car, so think of it as magnetic braking- there's NOTHING to wear out! The Volt still has conventional disc brake pads, but since they are not utilized as much (due to this regenerative braking) they will last much longer.

In the end the Volt's mainetnece cost will be MUCH cheaper than the Cruze and even less than the Leaf! (due to certain "historical baggage" wiithin Nissan's maintenance schedule)

WOT
As long as we are on this subject, are there any Ceramic Pads available for the Volt. Ceramics would reduce the amount of dust that builds up on the wheels. Anyone?
Al

Kiplinger has also done an analysis of the total cost of ownership for many different cars. The Cruze is about $1800 more over five years.

That's not right. Kiplinger calculated the Volt costs 1575 more than the Cruze, not the other way around. Also, their calculations had some questionable assumptions, I don't see how they got lower "opportunity costs" for the Volt, also saving $1400/year in fuel is quite optimistic.

It's really impossible to make a pure cost argument for the Volt because of the high initial price, compared to 20kish 32+mpg combined cars. It does work if comparing vs. 28k+ cars. That extra initial price just buys a lot of gas. Unless you are doing something like 75 mile daily round trip commute, charge at office, and comparing to a guzzler, you won't make the Volt come out cheaper. The argument for the Volt is that the tax credit+fuel savings cut down a large amount of the initial gap, that it's a nicer enough car to be worth comparing to more expensive cars, plus the environmental/energy independence benefits. But you'll never save money buying a Volt vs. a $22k compact.

That's not right. Kiplinger calculated the Volt costs 1575 more than the Cruze, not the other way around. Also, their calculations had some questionable assumptions, I don't see how they got lower "opportunity costs" for the Volt, also saving $1400/year in fuel is quite optimistic.

It's really impossible to make a pure cost argument for the Volt because of the high initial price, compared to 20kish 32+mpg combined cars. It does work if comparing vs. 28k+ cars. That extra initial price just buys a lot of gas. Unless you are doing something like 75 mile daily round trip commute, charge at office, and comparing to a guzzler, you won't make the Volt come out cheaper. The argument for the Volt is that the tax credit+fuel savings cut down a large amount of the initial gap, that it's a nicer enough car to be worth comparing to more expensive cars, plus the environmental/energy independence benefits. But you'll never save money buying a Volt vs. a $22k compact.

What none of these "studies" take into consideration is how a car might change your habits. I've already saved over $1500 in fuel cost "year over year" (actually 8 months). But not just in fuel used in the Volt versus the previous vehicle, as we choose to drive the Volt when it makes sense rather than our other vehicles. So we are reducing our use of gasoline by choosing to drive the electric mode Volt versus our gas burners.

This same thing happened when we were leasing an EV1. Our Lexus sat in the garage while we enjoyed driving the electric vehicle instead. Over the 3.5 years we had the EV1 the Lexus accumulated only 6000 miles on the clock.

VIN # B0985

That's not right. Kiplinger calculated the Volt costs 1575 more than the Cruze, not the other way around. Also, their calculations had some questionable assumptions, I don't see how they got lower "opportunity costs" for the Volt, also saving $1400/year in fuel is quite optimistic.Yes, you're right. The Cruze's TCO was lower than the Volt's. Just typed that the wrong way. Sorry. FYI the number ended up being $1800 not $1575 after they cleaned up the data a bit.

The bigger deal is that the Volt will have a MUCH lower TCO over a longer period. Over ten years it won't be a contest. And the lower TCO over the second five years will translate into a higher residual.

Do they use 3000-mile oil changes as regular maintenance or do they allow Synthetic oil use in the equasion and go to 7500-8000?

Volt will be more expensive - why? You then want to install a Solar PV. You then have to get a 2nd Volt for your spouse. How is that cheaper? :-)

Can you describe the "certain historical baggage" ... I do get asked about leaf vs Volt and until now I've presumed the maintenance for the Leaf would be less (since it is simpler). If you look at the Leaf's maint schedule, it's very much "old-school" with numerous recommended fluid replacements -lubricant of it's EV gear box, various coolants, even brake fluids, all slated to replaced a couple of times within the first 5 years of ownership.

In that same period the Volt (driven normally without "excessive" mileage) would have had a handful tire rotations (same as any othe car), annual "inspections" (not mandatory service) and potentially only 2 engine oil changes in that first 5 years.

As long as we are on this subject, are there any Ceramic Pads available for the Volt. Ceramics would reduce the amount of dust that builds up on the wheels. Anyone?
AlI am not aware of anyone currently marketing ceramic pads for the Volt yet. However given that the downstream hydraulic braking system is essentially the same as the Cruze, I would be surprised if there isnt some avaialble soon.



That's not right. Kiplinger calculated the Volt costs 1575 more than the Cruze, not the other way around. Also, their calculations had some questionable assumptions, I don't see how they got lower "opportunity costs" for the Volt, also saving $1400/year in fuel is quite optimistic.

It's really impossible to make a pure cost argument for the Volt because of the high initial price, compared to 20kish 32+mpg combined cars. It does work if comparing vs. 28k+ cars. That extra initial price just buys a lot of gas. Unless you are doing something like 75 mile daily round trip commute, charge at office, and comparing to a guzzler, you won't make the Volt come out cheaper. The argument for the Volt is that the tax credit+fuel savings cut down a large amount of the initial gap, that it's a nicer enough car to be worth comparing to more expensive cars, plus the environmental/energy independence benefits. But you'll never save money buying a Volt vs. a $22k compact.Not sure what OTHERS were commenting on, but my response was with respect to the OPs question, specifically MAINTENANCE COSTS (not TCO)
I can assure your the Volt's will be less than either the Cruze or the Leaf.
WOT

Not sure what OTHERS were commenting on, but my response was with respect to the OPs question, specifically MAINTENANCE COSTS (not TCO)
I can assure your the Volt's will be less than either the Cruze or the Leaf.I think he caught that and edited his reply so he was pointing out my mistake, which was a mistake (I typed it the wrong way so that the Cruze has a higher TCO than the Volt).

With respect to the Leaf, to answer the other question posed, the Volt will have a lower maintenance cost because it doesn't schedule a brake flush every year or two (I haven't noticed much of anything else). My question is: Do you have any idea why they'd require such frequent brake flushes? Safety concerns because when charged to 100% there isn't any overhead for regen? Seems weird that in a car with regen you'd be calling for flushes as or more frequently than you would in a car without. (One benefit of the Volt is the wheels stay clean clean clean! No brake dust on these babies.)

I think he caught that and edited his reply so he was pointing out my mistake, which was a mistake (I typed it the wrong way so that the Cruze has a higher TCO than the Volt).

With respect to the Leaf, to answer the other question posed, the Volt will have a lower maintenance cost because it doesn't schedule a brake flush every year or two. My question is: Do you have any idea why they'd require such frequent brake flushes? Safety concerns because when charged to 100% there isn't any overhead for regen? Seems weird that in a car with regen you'd be calling for flushes as or more frequently than you would in a car without. (One benefit of the Volt is the wheels stay clean clean clean! No brake dust on these babies.)Yea, you caught me editing my response too. (see above for mention of the brake fluid changes) I have absolutely no idea why they feel the brake fluid needs to be changed so often. In a modern sealed hydraulic braking system there just isnt as much issue with moisture intrusion and contamination as there was in older cars and trucks.

Not sure what you meant by "safety concerns because when charged to 100% there isn't any overhead for regen?" But the only real consideration or regen is that it is used most agressively at higher speeds which on a conventionl braking is a primary generatr of heat (that can affect the fluid) The fact that electric cars USE regenerative braking will mean that issues with brake fluids directly caused by extremes of heat would be essentially eliminated.

WOT

Do they use 3000-mile oil changes as regular maintenance or do they allow Synthetic oil use in the equasion and go to 7500-8000?

Volt will be more expensive - why? You then want to install a Solar PV. You then have to get a 2nd Volt for your spouse. How is that cheaper? :-)The Volt uses synthetic. As on most cars there is a sensor so the miles would depend on how many CS Mode miles you're putting on the car, driving conditions, etc. Almost all my miles are EV miles and it looks like it will be two years between oil changes, which is probably the shelf life of the oil more than anything.

Not sure what you meant by "Safety concerns because when charged to 100% there isn't any overhead for regen?"I was thinking that when you charge to 100% the Leaf can't use regen because the battery is literally charged as much as it can be without running the risk of damage. Hence it relies on the mechanical braking system if, as I do, you live on a hill and the first couple of miles are downhill. If that system is slightly undersized maybe Nissan wants it to remain in tip-tip shape? Just a theory trying to explain what appears to be overly frequent brake flushes.

What none of these "studies" take into consideration is how a car might change your habits. I've already saved over $1500 in fuel cost "year over year" (actually 8 months). But not just in fuel used in the Volt versus the previous vehicle, as we choose to drive the Volt when it makes sense rather than our other vehicles. So we are reducing our use of gasoline by choosing to drive the electric mode Volt versus our gas burners.

This same thing happened when we were leasing an EV1. Our Lexus sat in the garage while we enjoyed driving the electric vehicle instead. Over the 3.5 years we had the EV1 the Lexus accumulated only 6000 miles on the clock.

VIN # B0985

Great point and one that I share in my life. The CRV is sitting far more than usual because we use the Volt for almost all of our driving. Fortunately, while the cargo space in the Volt isn't great it is enough for most day trips for the wife, two kids and me to take the Volt.

I'm curious though. I'm sure you aren't the only EV1 and Volt owner but I haven't heard them compared directly. I imagine the EV1 has a fond spot in your heart but what do you make of the difference in performance, handling, comfort and technology? No need to go into the EV vs EREV aspect but I never sat in an EV1 and am curious, if you care to endulge me.

There are whole threads on EV1 and Volt owners
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?9419
http://gm-volt.com/2010/12/06/former-ev1-driver-loves-his-volt/

First its interesting how they do these calculation and always stop at 5 years. 5 years is a short time to own a car and its just after 5 years any car actually start getting interesting as its paid off. At 5 years+ the Volt ownership should start to really outperforming most cars in TCO.

Its also strange to compare a Volt to a Cruze. Do the drive the same? If they do we could compare them but maybe then we should compare cruze to a cheap BMW which we never do.

The Volt is a diffrent animal all togeheter and why is the comparision so focused on money, if I was thinking about money why did I not buy a KIA. Buying a car is about so much more than TCO, dont get me wrong I predict the Volt will have a very good lifetime TCO. Last the never look at the effect of driving habbits. As others said my second car is mostly idle as all small erands is done by EV with the volt. Its a perfect car for these small errands, I also feel less bad if I have to drive an errand as its so cheap, I can also drive more fun as its so cheap.

Its a whole experience, and once you have it there is no way I would buy an ICE only car ever again.

Tongue was in cheek...almost into my ear!!

In comparison to the say the Leaf, how is the regenerative tension determined? Is it variable of fixed? I read that the Volt has a better regen system ..... do you have more info?

Eric


Perhaps your tongue was in your cheek here, but there's no physical "regenerative" brakes. Regenerative braking is merely a mechanical resistance to the rotation of the electric motors due to magnetic fields created within the assembly. This resistance SLOWS the car, so think of it as magnetic braking- there's NOTHING to wear out! The Volt still has conventional disc brake pads, but since they are not utilized as much (due to this regenerative braking) they will last much longer.

In the end the Volt's mainetnece cost will be MUCH cheaper than the Cruze and even less than the Leaf! (due to certain "historical baggage" wiithin Nissan's maintenance schedule)

WOT

I am not aware of anyone currently marketing ceramic pads for the Volt yet. However given that the downstream hydraulic braking system is essentially the same as the Cruze, I would be surprised if there isnt some avaialble soon.WOT
I put ceramic on my Ford Expedition as the brake dust made a mess on the wheels. With 8000 miles on the Volt I've seen very little brake dust but then again I have driven in (L)ow for 7950 of those miles.

I have BOTH the Leaf and the Volt. The Leaf requires a regular service every 7500 miles to "check" electronics and to rotate the tires. We just had that done last week and it cost $30.

Our Volt also has just over 7600 miles and it has 62% oil life left, so it will NOT need ANY service until around 17,000 miles and then that will likely cost about $75???????.

Our Volt also has just over 7600 miles and it has 62% oil life left, so it will NOT need ANY service until around 17,000 miles and then that will likely cost about $75???????.

The manual calls for a tire rotation every 7500 miles on your Volt. Everything else is a simple inspection, and my dealer's done those for free. The cost for the rotation has been nominal (which means I can't remember... $30?).

I'm at 24.5K miles last time I checked, and still have 35% oil life.