This is a good article describing the state of hydrogen proliferation:

Link (http://www.cleantechblog.com/2008/06/hydrogen-goes-public-in-southern.html)

As I've stated before, plug-in fuel cell vehicles (PFCV's) and battery electric vehicles (BEV) will be the future with the mix TBD.

Not directed at you, Jason, but that article is a public relations stunt. I manage a state fleet of 98 vehicles, and I can assure you there is no working hydrogen or even an E85 station at the state's capitol. It's a white wash, a political sham. My driver's are frustrated and can't even find propane on a consistent basis. "let them eat diesel "

"The electrolyzer will make enough hydrogen for about seven cars per day with 40kg of storage. The electrolyzer is powered with Green Energy from the LA Department of Water and Power."

Typical for a politician. Seven cars a day. A real knock out punch. Using power that is competing with office workers AC and what ever else.

Please people, don't believe everything you see or hear on the web or the media. Me included.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

That's the age old question isn't it. Now update that to the 21st centrury. "Which came first, the hydrogen fueling station or the hydrogen car?" Actually, who cares so long as it happens.

Jump back 100 years when the gasoline engine was making itself known and the automobile was still a novilty for most people. Steam ruled the industrial roost back then. There were steam cars, and they were reliable, easy to fuel, and there were lots of mechanics who knew how to work on a steam engine. Standard Oil didn't have a gas station in every town in hopes that perhaps someone would build more ICE cars that burned gasoline. No, that wasn't the way it happened at all. Tinkerers and enthusiasts built or bought some early gasoline powered cars. They would srounge around to find some gasoline, often in hardware stores or drug stores, and they'd fill a small tank and take off to see where they could go. Cross country trips often involved as much searching for fuel as they did tweeking the car and fighting the poor roads to get there. Eventually when there was a market for the fuel, businesses starting supplying gasoline to meet the demand.

Using the reasoning of those who say hydrogen can't work because it's not a redily available fuel, the gasoine automobile should never have worked either. We should still all be driving steam cars because we could burn Kerosene or wood or coal to boil water and make steam. Those fuels were redily available in 1900, gasoline was not. But gasoline won the day because the ICE had advantages over steam. Eventually when there were enough gasoline powered cars service stations sprung up to supply the fuel.

So let's not poo-poo the idea of a hydrogen car just because there are few places where the owner can buy hydrogen right now. When push comes to shove, there's always the local welding supply store or compressed gas dealer. It would be no worse that trying to find gasoline in 1900. Ney-sayers can always find a reason why something won't work. Dreamers can always dream of ways to make things work. Enthusiasts will always push the envelope of technology. In the end a workable technology will win the day, and I believe that hydrogen will be a winning technology. When it hits critical mass it will take off. I would not want to be the one standing in front trying to hold it back when that happens because I might just get run over.

Using the reasoning of those who say hydrogen can't work because it's not a redily available fuel, the gasoine automobile should never have worked either.

The difference is gasoline was a byproduct of oil production, meaning it took very little energy to make, yet has very high energy density. Hydrogen takes a substantial amount of energy to make and offers less energy density or fueling convenience, whether burned in an ICE or used in a fuel cell.

Pennor, not saying hydrogen can't work, I just want to spot light the headline grabbing clowns getting all the lime light. A few years ago it was supposed to be propane power. Why cant they stick to solving world hunger and feeding the babies in North Korea ??

How about "I don't want the equivilent of the Hindenburg on the back of every car in America" arguement?

Hardly ever hear that one mentioned:confused:

Check out this caution sign!


http://homepage.mac.com/jeffuren/ShellHydrogenStation/PhotoAlbum39.html

I would prefer not having to "go somewhere and fill up" - gasoline, hydrogen, or ethanol. I would like to cut "big oil" out of the picture as much as possible. What have they done for the average joe lately, other than screw him at the pumps?

I would prefer not having to "go somewhere and fill up" - gasoline, hydrogen, or ethanol. I would like to cut "big oil" out of the picture as much as possible. What have they done for the average joe lately, other than screw him at the pumps?

You're just switching drugs, and dealers are all the same. It appears that solar panels won't be sold at home depot, as dealers buy up the supply and either sell the electricity or lease / sell the home installation.

You are better off planting a field of Jatropha Curcas and buying a diesel.

Home Depot and Ace Hardware are touting solar panels. Of course, you can't buy them off the shelf, you have to talk with customer service and start from there. They have list of local installers. Some solar PV companies are endorsed by Home Depot and Ace Hardware and have brochures of their products at the stores.

But the price.... man, the price.... Is Through the ROOF! :eek:

Home Depot and Ace Hardware are touting solar panels. Of course, you can't buy them off the shelf, you have to talk with customer service and start from there. They have list of local installers. Some solar PV companies are endorsed by Home Depot and Ace Hardware and have brochures of their products at the stores.

But the price.... man, the price.... Is Through the ROOF! :eek:

No, dude, the price is ON the roof! :D

just think if every home in America had a solar system on it's roof, wow

To the poster that said we should feed the hungry and save the babies... Sorry but if we don't solve the energy crisis we can't afford anymore people. Educated, healthy people require more energy. That is the fact of the situation. Solve the energy problem first. Then you can solve the other problems of the world. Doing anything else only causes more suffering or takes energy away from someone else. Make sense? Good.

No. The problem is not that there are no hydrogen stations. The problem is that BEVs and hybrids are just better, cheaper and more efficient. Hydrogen is an energy whore. Period. It might be good for some applications but the BEV will take most of the market. Place your bets. I did.

To the poster that said we should feed the hungry and save the babies... Sorry but if we don't solve the energy crisis we can't afford anymore people. Educated, healthy people require more energy. That is the fact of the situation. Solve the energy problem first. Then you can solve the other problems of the world. Doing anything else only causes more suffering or takes energy away from someone else. Make sense? Good.

For once, we agree. It's like the parent on the airplane, who should put their oxygen mask on first, before helping their children with their oxygen masks. The civilized world can be no help to the destitute, if their own civilization is collapsing.

To the poster on the poster on the poster.........we agree. I was expressing my sarcastic contempt for politicians seizing any little twig to perch on. In this case the Hydrogen car. Peace out. :)

Someone please explain, why are people so excited about inefficient and expensive hydrogen fuel cell cars when BEVs are such a superior solution?

I used to think hydrogen was cool until I realized how ridiculously inefficient or unclean the hydrogen process is, how expensive and fragile fuel cells are, and the challenges required to store and distribute hydrogen. Why not just use electricity and skip the middle man?

Someone please explain, why are people so excited about inefficient and expensive hydrogen fuel cell cars when BEVs are such a superior solution?

I used to think hydrogen was cool until I realized how ridiculously inefficient or unclean the hydrogen process is, how expensive and fragile fuel cells are, and the challenges required to store and distribute hydrogen. Why not just use electricity and skip the middle man?


I'm with you on this. The BEV is just so much better. The main point of the argument I think comes down to the following point:


What will win the market - A quick-charge battery or a cost effective fuel cell system. I'm betting on the quick-charge battery coming earlier and cheaper and others are betting on hydrogen and it's infrastructure getting here faster. Both are several years away so the debate continues. That's why I say, "place your bets!" We will know in 5 years who was right.

I just want to have my solar cells charging my batteries. Simple with little to no maintenance. Others want a complicated system of high pressure tanks, hydrogen generation, fuel cells, maintenance schedules, etc. I like things simple and decentralized as much as possible. What is more decentralized than the sun?

Have to agree with Texas on this one....... :)

Others want a complicated system of high pressure tanks, hydrogen generation, fuel cells, maintenance schedules, etc.

LOL - pressure vessals are a simple tech, as are pumps.

Rapid refill will keep hydrogen ahead, as people drive their REEV's around saying "thank God a have a gas tank".

The eventual / ultimate vehicle will be a plug-in fuel cell vehicle, which GM has at the tail end of their product development plan.

How about we let the readers decide if a 10,000 psi hydrogen storage system and connected fuel cell is a complicated system or not. Remember, a 10,000 psi tank must be certified to over 25,000 psi and currently is more than 3 inches thick of expensive carbon fiber. Simple? Just check out the picture:

http://hydrogencommerce.com/images/QTWWH2Tanks.jpg

http://www.qtww.com/

This is the first I've seen an actual 10K psi tank. I had assumed they'd make them spherical, as the hoop stress in the round part is half that of the axial stress in a cylinder. Cutting stress in half can cut thickness in half. I think the tanks in the shuttle main fuel tank are spherical.

This is the first I've seen an actual 10K psi tank. I had assumed they'd make them spherical, as the hoop stress in the round part is half that of the axial stress in a cylinder. Cutting stress in half can cut thickness in half. I think the tanks in the shuttle main fuel tank are spherical.


Here is a picture of the tank:


http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/images/et_1.jpg

LOL - pressure vessals are a simple tech, as are pumps.

Rapid refill will keep hydrogen ahead, as people drive their REEV's around saying "thank God a have a gas tank".

The eventual / ultimate vehicle will be a plug-in fuel cell vehicle, which GM has at the tail end of their product development plan.

There exists no pressure vessel in the world that can store enough hydrogen onboard a car that doesn't cost a fortune.

Hydrogen has 1/3rd the volumetric energy density as methane. Just examine the reasons why CNG cars never took off. They were clean, they were efficient, fuel was cheap (it's about 1/4th the cost of gas now), the engine technology was simple... but they required 3500psi tanks. And those tanks only supplied about 200 miles per fill (because they were limited by size and weight), even less when you account for loss due to rapid-refill (rapid rise in pressure causes heat, heat causes expansion, expansion causes less methane storage). I'm not an expert, but I would imagine that as hydrogen is rapidly-refilled, it has the same effect as CNG. Now imagine the pressure problems of CNG, and multiply that by 3x. You need at least 10,000psi tanks to store enough hydrogen to get about 200-miles of range.

There exists no pressure vessel that is strong enough, small enough, light enough, and cheap enough (to fit on even a large vehicle), that is capable of storing 10,000psi. Hydrogen vehicle pressure vessels are not simple. They don't exist!! (according to the DoE, which still has yet to see their 2005 hydrogen tank goals reached).

And pressure is not the only problem. In fact, I would think it's the least difficult issue to overcome.

http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/hydrogen-economy-fuel+cell/480


Let's explore a typical calculation of the EROI of the hydrogen fuel cycle for cars:

1. Suppose we generate the hydrogen by the electrolysis of water. First we must "rectify" the grid's AC electricity into DC, at a cost of about 2% to 3% of the energy contained in the hydrogen.
2. Now we can electrolyze the water, but that process is only about 70% efficient, so we lose another 30% there.
3. Now we have hydrogen gas, but it takes up a lot of space. We could compress it to around 10,000 psi to make it fit in reasonably sized tank, which costs another 15%. But even then, it would only have about one-fifth of the energy density of gasoline, and the pressurized tank needed to store it is very heavy, large and expensive. So if we wanted to use it in a vehicle, we would have to liquefy the hydrogen by cooling it down to about -253°C and keep it in a pressurized, insulated container instead. This process would cost another 30% to 40% of the energy in the hydrogen.
4. We lose some more during storage because hydrogen boils off above -253°C, so it's very difficult to keep it from escaping its container. In vehicles, about 3% to 4% of the hydrogen boils off every day. And at least 10% of the hydrogen will boil off during delivery and storage.
5. Then we burn the hydrogen in a vehicle's fuel cell at an efficiency of about 50% (for a proton membrane fuel cell stack).
6. And finally, we lose another 10% of the energy that makes it to the electric motors driving the wheels, because they are only about 90% efficient.

Here is the 10 kpsi tank right here:

Link (http://www.qtww.com/products/haft/hydrostorage.php)

It is all becoming feasible - the pieces of the puzzle all falling together.

Here is the 10 kpsi tank right here:

Link (http://www.qtww.com/products/haft/hydrostorage.php)

It is all becoming feasible - the pieces of the puzzle all falling together.

How much does that tank cost?

Here is the 10 kpsi tank right here:

Link (http://www.qtww.com/products/haft/hydrostorage.php)

It is all becoming feasible - the pieces of the puzzle all falling together.

I'm guessing the poster wanted to include the "at an affordable price" into the mix. If you re-read his post you can see that is what he was trying to say but I agree that it came out sounding like he thought the tanks don't exist. The tanks exist. You or I can't buy them but if you have a huge company and an even bigger wad of cash you might be able to get a pre-production unit.

Some people feel the hydrogen car is just around the corner and will cost only a few thousand dollars more than an ICE car. I think they are never going to be able to compete against the quick-charge BEV. The debate continues but the answer is 5 years away. In the mean time how about we build some cool plug-in hybrids. Best bang on the oil drum for the buck.