http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=613448


Sometime over the next several weeks, a privately-held and ultra-secretive company named EEStor Inc. based in Cedar Park, Texas is expected to release the results of independent third-party testing of its electrical energy storage unit, which aims to replace the electrochemical batteries we now use in everything from hybrid cars to laptop computers. EEStor says its system, combining battery and ultracapacitor technology and based on modified barium titanate ceramic powder, could power a car for 400 kilometres with regular performance. It claims the unit would charge in a few minutes and weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries for the same cost.

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=613448

If their technology delivers only 25% of what they are claiming it will change the world in just about every way. I am extremely cautious about their claims but look forward to this third party evaluation. Should be interesting.

If their technology delivers only 25% of what they are claiming it will change the world in just about every way. I am extremely cautious about their claims but look forward to this third party evaluation. Should be interesting.

Don't worry, their claims are getting more down to earth! The first report that I've read states, it would be 500 mile range per charge. Now this third Party verification news stated a range of 400 kilometers, which is 50% of 500 miles, or about 248 miles per charge. Perhaps within weeks, the third party will conclude 125 mile range, which is a mere 25% of the original claim. Not really that impressive compared to what is there right now, except that the battery weight would be 10% of lead acid battery that can store the same power.

So you would be right on that it will be 25% of original claims, :)

Yep I am hoping they deliever 90% of what they promised but realistically I would be happy with 25% delivery in the price range they are talking about.

That would still be like watching a race were the world record get totally shattered but some are still let down because the promise was to cut the world record down for say 4 minutes down to 1 minutes.

I'd like to add them to my list of IPO's I want in on along with A123.

Can't wait to see these results..... :rolleyes:

How do you watch out for such IPO's? Where to track when it starts?

Patience, there are plenty of solutions available, so we needn't hold our breath for these caps.

Not really that impressive compared to what is there right now, except that the battery weight would be 10% of lead acid battery that can store the same power.

You have to be very carefully at what was and wasn't mentioned in the article before any conclusions can be made. They did not say that "the battery weight would be 10% of lead acid battery that can store the same power." They said EESU would "weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries for the same cost". So they didn't compare weight-to-range here. They compared weight-to-cost. Very very different.

You have to be very carefully at what was and wasn't mentioned in the article before any conclusions can be made. They did not say that "the battery weight would be 10% of lead acid battery that can store the same power." They said EESU would "weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries for the same cost". So they didn't compare weight-to-range here. They compared weight-to-cost. Very very different.

It was implied from the article about the 400 km range for the stored power. Were there any mile range mentioned? It was very clear for me, did you read the whole article?

No offense, but I think you are forming connections where none are made. You are saying the energy density of EESU is equal to that of PbA, but costs 10% less. I don't see that connection mentioned here.

The article says EESU could replace laptop computer batteries. Can you imagine lugging around batteries in a laptop with the energy density equal to that of PbA? It would weigh a ton and the battery pack required would be insanely huge! So that doesn't make sense either.

Who knows, maybe you are right. But I don't see the connection here, and if I did, it just doesn't make sense in the context of the article. But hopefully we will read more once these test results are published.

I'm excited either way. This EESU promise has lasted too long. It's about time we see something other than speculation and promises. If it works as you suggest, it will still be very useful if for nothing less than an ultracapacitor buffer. But based on everything I've read so far, I'm expecting a little bit more than just a fast charging PbA battery.

VERBATIM:
"EEStor says its system, combining battery and ultracapacitor technology and based on modified barium titanate ceramic powder, could power a car for 400 kilometres with regular performance. It claims the unit would charge in a few minutes and weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries for the same cost."

its system: could power a car for 400 km
the unit: would charge in a few minutes AND weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries

When used in the same paragraph, its system = the unit

"for the same cost." is ambiguous and it could most likely mean that:
the total price of lead-acid batteries that can deliver 400 km per charge.

So for all you EESTOR fans; how do they keep the capacitor from discharging? A conventional capacitor discharges whether it's connected to anything or not. For this technology to be of much use in an automotive application, it would need to maintain near 100% of it's charge when not in use over a long period of time. I have a hard time believing a capacitor can do this.

I do believe that capacitors can be used to solve the "quick charge" disadvantage that batteries have over gasoline. Imagine going to the "filling station" and getting a 5-10 minute zap to the capacitor bank. Then, as you drive and go on your way, the capacitor slowly charges the battery pack at the rate that it requires for long life and efficiency.

EEStor supposedly came up with a way to have a lower self-discharge than even Li-ion. How? Trade secret, I imagine. I will be interested to see the report to see exactly how well it performs.

"for the same cost." is ambiguous and it could most likely mean that:
the total price of lead-acid batteries that can deliver 400 km per charge.

Or "current lead-acid batteries" could mean the PbA pack in the current ZENN car, which has a 30-mile range. That would mean the energy density is about 8x that of PbA (for 250-mile range), which is almost exactly what the specs in my sig suggest, and is exactly what all current data points to. You can't form a conclusion based on this article that says the energy density is equal to PbA without jumping to that conclusion. But again, I'm waiting for the report. Everything until then is speculation.

So for all you EESTOR fans; how do they keep the capacitor from discharging? A conventional capacitor discharges whether it's connected to anything or not. For this technology to be of much use in an automotive application, it would need to maintain near 100% of it's charge when not in use over a long period of time. I have a hard time believing a capacitor can do this.

I do believe that capacitors can be used to solve the "quick charge" disadvantage that batteries have over gasoline. Imagine going to the "filling station" and getting a 5-10 minute zap to the capacitor bank. Then, as you drive and go on your way, the capacitor slowly charges the battery pack at the rate that it requires for long life and efficiency.

EEstor has been claiming self discharge specs that are much better than batteries. Something like 0.1% per month.

Even with the self discharge not being as good as batteries (they claim better) this would not be a big issue. Cars would only discharge significantly after they are left up for long periods of time. Who leaves their car for long periods of time at places like the super market. If my car is left for long periods it is usually at home next to an outlet. Airports are the only concern I can think of here and that one isn't a show stopper by a long shot.

The big question for me is degradation at high & low temperatures. High-K dielectrics usually are not very good.

I found this "interview" with Richard Weir entertaining:

http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2008/05/to-hype-or-not-to-hype-part-1-interview.html

http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2008/05/how-fast-can-you-partner-part-2.html

http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2008/06/going-into-production-part-3-interview.html

Or "current lead-acid batteries" could mean the PbA pack in the current ZENN car, which has a 30-mile range. That would mean the energy density is about 8x that of PbA (for 250-mile range), which is almost exactly what the specs in my sig suggest, and is exactly what all current data points to. You can't form a conclusion based on this article that says the energy density is equal to PbA without jumping to that conclusion. But again, I'm waiting for the report. Everything until then is speculation.

Thanks for pointing out that until EEStor comes out with proven specs, everything is treated with skepticism or speculation.

Certainly we can form our own opinions, interpretations, as well as our own conclusions based on credibility of information we come across or data we have gathered and experiences we encountered to name a few. As any standard internet disclaimer goes, no one is forced to believe.

The best way to clarify the energy density of EEStor's system or unit is to communicate with the writer of the original article that the portion of that article is not clear. Recommend to the writer to at least separate disparate facts written in one sentence to make the information clearer. I'm not particular of grammar (definitely the writer would be better than my impromptu unedited posts), just that the information should come across unambiguous to most readers.

And thanks, I'll take note of your word on the energy densities. Just like all information about EEStor, I always just take note of them, not necessarily believe them.

Barium titanate, due to its piezoelectric properties, is also used to make acoustic transducers for sonar - even fish-finders.

Does this mean that the EEStor will "sing" when it is being charged? ;)

I bet someone could hack the firmware on the charge controller to allow an mp3 file to modulate the charge current, and turn the EEStor cap into a big speaker :D

Or "current lead-acid batteries" could mean the PbA pack in the current ZENN car, which has a 30-mile range. That would mean the energy density is about 8x that of PbA (for 250-mile range), which is almost exactly what the specs in my sig suggest, and is exactly what all current data points to. You can't form a conclusion based on this article that says the energy density is equal to PbA without jumping to that conclusion.

Actually, you can. They compare it to an equal weight of lead acid batteries - which could reasonably be read as SLA batteries weighing as much as their claimed 400km range system.


'm waiting for the report. Everything until then is speculation.

...including your 'conclusion' that they must be talking about the 30 mile range Zenn pack ;)

In my humble opinion, EESTOR has all the markings of a classic stock hype. Issue glowing press releases, then clam up, and wait for companies to throw capital at you. If this is EESTOR's intent, so far they've succeeded.

Even if they do produce a marketable project that lives up to the hype, ultracaps storing that much energy could be a huge safety issue. While firemen are already leery about cutting into the frame of high voltage EVs to extract passengers involved in catastrophic collisions, at least traction battery packs release their energy relatively slowly. Ultracaps, however, could literally go bang.

Actually, you can. They compare it to an equal weight of lead acid batteries - which could reasonably be read as SLA batteries weighing as much as their claimed 400km range system.



...including your 'conclusion' that they must be talking about the 30 mile range Zenn pack ;)



My point was the article is ambiguous. One can come to a conclusion that EESU is 1x the energy density of PbA just as easily as one can come to the conclusion that EESU is 8x the energy density of PbA. New data won't be released until after the third-party testings are. Until these tests are made public, EESU is vaporware, and all we have to go by are the specifications previously promised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor

As far as I know there are no lead acid batteries that can power an electric vehicle 400km.

That would mean that there is no way to compare price points between a lead acid battery of that power, and an EESTOR EESU of that power.

The fact that there is no battery to compare prices with, in that power range, they would have to compare with a smaller lead acid battery. The largest lead acid battery I know of... is the ZENN CityZenn's lead acid battery.

That would be the only battery to compare price points against... and it would make sense (reasonably) that they were comparing against that battery's price.

As far as I know there are no lead acid batteries that can power an electric vehicle 400km.

That would mean that there is no way to compare price points between a lead acid battery of that power, and an EESTOR EESU of that power.

The fact that there is no battery to compare prices with, in that power range, they would have to compare with a smaller lead acid battery. The largest lead acid battery I know of... is the ZENN CityZenn's lead acid battery.

That would be the only battery to compare price points against... and it would make sense (reasonably) that they were comparing against that battery's price.

You can compare battery prices by looking at the cost per kWh and the energy density to determine the cost and range of a certain pack.

Li-ion: $350/kWh; 0.20kWh/kg
NiMH: $225/kWh; 0.08kWh/kg
PbA: $150/kWh; 0.04kWh/kg
EESU: $62/kWh; 0.28kWh/kg

Lead-acid could take a car 250-miles, but you would need over 3,000lbs worth of batteries! :eek:

In my humble opinion, EESTOR has all the markings of a classic stock hype. Issue glowing press releases, then clam up, and wait for companies to throw capital at you. If this is EESTOR's intent, so far they've succeeded.


Some more discussion about EEStor:
http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2008/07/eestor-beyond-permittivity.html

"A sort of pattern seems to have emerged: NDAs are signed, a large financial firm flies their Subject Matter Expert to Cedar Park and a group of people gather in a conference room. The SME starts firing off questions designed to trip up Weir, catch him on some aspect of the science that he should be aware of. These meetings often end up being the SME and Weir going back and forth with everyone else having a dumb look on their face. Then the SME invariably starts to get a smile that he/she can't get rid of and it often stays with them out into the parking lot and all the way to the airport.

I bet someone could hack the firmware on the charge controller to allow an mp3 file to modulate the charge current, and turn the EEStor cap into a big speaker :D
:D

I take it you've seen some harddisk speaker videos. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp4jQNa_9sY

About EEStor.. I've been following this periodically for a few years, and each time I've come to conclusion that it was a scam.. but with Lockheed Martin and Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers onboard now, I'm not so sure. One fellow in this thread:
http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2007/11/1/3328442.html
..is very sure they miscalculated, but perhaps the ultra-high purity of their stew changes the rules. Either way it'll be interesting to watch <gets some popcorn>...

Its been announced for a while. I am still very sceptical about the correctness of their claims but would like to be surprised by the opposite. :)
http://www.ecocarforum.com
The Green Car Network

Here are some details about today's EEStor announcement:
http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/

"Filling formulae with data and letting google's compute engine step into play, we have:
volumetric: Uv = ~2700 Wh/l
gravimetric: Ug = ~450 Wh/kg
"To put these numbers into perspective, consider enerergy density of current production lithium-ion energy storage: Uv = 270 Wh/l and Ug = 160 Wh/kg.

"3) the plastic PET matrix is key to physically turning the particles in a strong electric field to get the best polarization. Polarizing BT in a strong electric field while the material is still hot during manufacturing is standard practice, much the same way magnets are created by using a magnetic field while the metal is very hot. "Polarization along with other proprietary processing steps provides the **potential** of a polarization saturation voltage required by EEStor." The plastic matrix is unique and this may be the explanation I have been looking for. I believe i had guessed here before that better polarization was the reason for the PET.

"First, his task was not to run any tests himself but rather validate two main things: 1) that EEStor possessed the equipment necessary to perform the tests whose results are touted in the recent announcement and 2) that persons who work for EEStor are competent in their use. According to Golla, that equipment is made by Perkin Elmer and is known as an Inductively Coupled Argon Plasma (ICAP) spectrometer. The model in use was an Optima 2100. After verifying that EEStor had the equipment necessary to make the purity measurements of the materials in use, Golla interviewed the chemist in charge of operating the equipment and found him (at the time I spoke to him, Golla did not have the gentleman's name in front of him) to be competent and able to operate the equipment.
Golla wanted to make it clear that he has a chemistry background and not an electrical energy background of the type required to evaluate EEStor's capability claims...but, he was aware of concepts like break down voltage, etc from his former days operating radio equipment.

And I leave you with this thought:
EEStor is not selling batteries or capacitors, they are selling assembly lines that build capacitors! As such, the GM announcement that they are taking the battery building in-house may be significant. Also, Nissan insistence that they are going to a pure EV may be significant.

Forget about EEStor and their rehashed purity claims. EEstor only made their tired announcement after Maxell made the following product related announcement:


"San Diego-based Maxwell Technologies (Nasdaq: MXWL) made a deal to supply its Boostcap ultracapacitors to Xiamen, China's Golden Dragon Bus. Golden Dragon is producing diesel-electric hybrid buses for the Hangzhou, China, Public Transport Group.

Maxwell said today that it has completed delivery of 720 of its 48-volt multi-cell ultracapacitor modules to Golden Dragon for installation into 45 hybrid buses. Financial terms of the supply contract were not disclosed
"


http://media.cleantech.com/3170/gold...ltracapacitors



Now that's what I'm talking about! Real products being shipped to real customers. Hey, EEStor, The hot air coming out of you seems to be 99.99 percent methane.

Okay, I'm compelled to post if only to provide a counterbalance to the previous post by our friend Tejas.

My late father (a solid state experimental physics professor) did a lot of work with ceramic powders as superconductors. My sister has a PhD in materials engineering. In talking to them both, I got a distinct impression that in this field, most experts have only a shadow of an idea of what is really going on.

When high-temperature superconductors were discovered, technology took a huge leap forward, which no one could have predicted at the time.

To compare EEStor to Maxwell is like comparing high Tc superconductors to Niobium (which has a transistion temperature of 18K).

I have no idea whether EEStor is the next high Tc breakthrough. But I would put the odds at this point around 10%. With the promise to replace just about every battery in the world, this is absolutely stunning, in my humble opinion.

"Filling formulae with data and letting google's compute engine step into play, we have:
volumetric: Uv = ~2700 Wh/l
gravimetric: Ug = ~450 Wh/kg
"To put these numbers into perspective, consider enerergy density of current production lithium-ion energy storage: Uv = 270 Wh/l and Ug = 160 Wh/kg.


These EESTOR numbers are for the dielectric alone - they don't include the metal and packaging, which could be a large part of the volume & weight. Also, the announcement didn't include any info on permittivity vs. voltage, so I don't understand how anyone could calculate these numbers in the first place.

Joshua,
you said "I got a distinct impression that in this field, most experts have only a shadow of an idea of what is really going on."

So do you mean that a lot of work is going on quietly in research labs surrounding ultra cap technology? If so what are you aware of?

If so, then even if EEStor do not make the real break through some other boffins might.

Also, the announcement didn't include any info on permittivity vs. voltage, so I don't understand how anyone could calculate these numbers in the first place.

Well, I just quoted verbatim some parts of the article I gave the link to. You can see there what they did to do the calculation. Of course the calculations are simplistic, and I have not verified their correctness, but if even the order of magnitude is correct then the EESU is very impressive.

Joshua,
you said "I got a distinct impression that in this field, most experts have only a shadow of an idea of what is really going on."

So do you mean that a lot of work is going on quietly in research labs surrounding ultra cap technology? If so what are you aware of?


Sorry, what I meant was that the high Tc superconductor discovery was the result of alchemy - scientists literally just mixed different ratios of elements until they got one that had a higher critical temperature. That was 1986, and to this day, theorists have still not explained the mechanism behind superconductivity in these ceramics.

Well, EEStor's certification has been announced:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/eestor-announces-certification-additional-key/story.aspx?guid={AB6D95CC-0C6B-4734-83CB-990B4451270C}&dist=hppr

Well, EEStor's certification has been announced:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/eestor-announces-certification-additional-key/story.aspx?guid={AB6D95CC-0C6B-4734-83CB-990B4451270C}&dist=hppr



Way to be on the ball, Joe. We have been talking about it for about 2 days now. Anyway, does that news make you happy? That their equipment is performing like the equipment vendor said it would? I could order the same equipment tomorrow and also have is certified. Big deal.

Wouldn't you rather have even the claim of a working prototype? Even if EEstor said Brittany Spears checked out the prototype and said she could run her cell phone off of it would make me happy. Until they have a prototype that is verified anything they say is hot methane. Explosive vaporware.

I just noticed the picture on the EEStor peswiki page changed from the usual artist conception drawing to something that looks like it is a real picture of something, perhaps a mock up? I hadn't seen this picture before.

I just noticed the picture on the EEStor peswiki page changed from the usual artist conception drawing to something that looks like it is a real picture of something, perhaps a mock up? I hadn't seen this picture before.

a truly amazing development!

EESTOR is a scam

EESTOR is a scam



That's why I call them EEScam. ;) I really don't know what their game is but I do know that they are not helping things by giving people false hope and holding up other development and deployment. Maybe that's their goal. To keep people guessing and giving people the argument, "Maybe we should wait. EEStor's product will work so much better. Why spend money now when their product would make all of our investment worthless overnight?"

I don't know what their goals are but if they don't come out with something that really knocks our socks off then it will be hard for any of them to wipe that filth from their hands. Not that any of us know who's working there. Hummmm. I wouldn't be surprised if their factory is nothing but a nearly empty building with some expensive qualification equipment. It's completely certified and verified! Probably just a bunch of guys playing ping-pong and watching cable TV all day long.

NOTE: if EEstor comes out with a great product then I apologize in advance. ;)

That's why I call them EEScam. ;) I really don't know what their game is but I do know that they are not helping things by giving people false hope and holding up other development and deployment. Maybe that's their goal. To keep people guessing and giving people the argument, "Maybe we should wait. EEStor's product will work so much better. Why spend money now when their product would make all of our investment worthless overnight?"

I don't know what their goals are but if they don't come out with something that really knocks our socks off then it will be hard for any of them to wipe that filth from their hands. Not that any of us know who's working there. Hummmm. I wouldn't be surprised if their factory is nothing but a nearly empty building with some expensive qualification equipment. It's completely certified and verified! Probably just a bunch of guys playing ping-pong and watching cable TV all day long.

NOTE: if EEstor comes out with a great product then I apologize in advance. ;)

I do not think you need to apologize unless they actually put out a product. Only their procedures have been certified. There is not even a test unit to confirm their specs yet. Even if they can produce one test module, there is no proof that they can get the same specs in production quantities.

Thin film solar panels have had the same problem. Their lab samples were testing at 14% 3 years ago, but when they tried to go into production, they only got 9% efficiency. At least the thin film people have fixed their problems. There is no proof that EEstor can.

Thin film solar panels have had the same problem. Their lab samples were testing at 14% 3 years ago, but when they tried to go into production, they only got 9% efficiency. At least the thin film people have fixed their problems. There is no proof that EEstor can.

So to have fair analogy, are you willing to give EEStor 3 more years to correct themselves?

I am willing to wait 3 more years to find out which vehicle energy storage technology would be the cheapest and meet the minimum safety standards (if there's one). Even then, if the cheapest is still out of reach of my pocket, I can always carpool or telecommute to work and wait it out until the economies of scale would make it affordable to most people. Either that, or I become a trillionaire, which by then, each electric car would be a billion dollars and a cup of coffee would be $100,000, the price of Tesla today.

That's why I call them EEScam. ;) I really don't know what their game is but I do know that they are not helping things by giving people false hope and holding up other development and deployment.

I suppose it's possible, but don't you think the threat of EESTOR actually delivering is actually making companies like Maxwell, A123 systems, Altairnano and others work even harder to get better batteries / ultracapacitors out of the lab and into production?

Maybe not, but I doubt that they are taking the day off in response the the EESTOR hype. Keep in mind, that to make use of an EESU (and that 3000V charge), you need a much more sophisticated battery controller than with a std battery system. So for the even if EESTOR is for real, near future cell phones will just use Li-ion.

In all I've read about EEstor, I have never gotten an impression that they are a scam outfit. The scams usually have big, bold web pages, full of key words like flying car or EV with 400 mile range, etc, and they solicit investors very heavily right on their web site. EEstor does not even have a web site and is not asking for money exactly. I am sure their VC firm has done their due diligence and knows that EEStor does have a product, or a good chance of coming out with one. Ditto for ZENN, who must have gotten some quarantees before they plunked their money down, to the tune of millions. We just need to be patient.

EEStor is just keeping their cards very close to their vest until they get their production going. This is in contrast to the usual startup that shouts loudly about their product and then still takes years to come to market, sometimes being eclipsed by another company that comes from behind.

It is really a pity, because it means we have no idea on how suitable the EESU is for the Volt, until they choose to come out with more info. That might mean that EEStor may have their production ready, but have no customers, at least for a while. I do not exactly get the impression that ZENN is charging ahead with their cityZENN while they are waiting for the EESUs, nor lining up customers for their conversion kits. I hope I am wrong here, but I do not expect the EESUs to be in production vehicles in 2009 like ZENN has said. Still, I do believe the EEStor technology is real.

In all I've read about EEstor, I have never gotten an impression that they are a scam outfit. The scams usually have big, bold web pages, full of key words like flying car or EV with 400 mile range, etc, and they solicit investors very heavily right on their web site. EEstor does not even have a web site and is not asking for money exactly. I am sure their VC firm has done their due diligence and knows that EEStor does have a product, or a good chance of coming out with one. Ditto for ZENN, who must have gotten some guarantees before they plunked their money down, to the tune of millions. We just need to be patient.

EEStor is just keeping their cards very close to their vest until they get their production going. This is in contrast to the usual startup that shouts loudly about their product and then still takes years to come to market, sometimes being eclipsed by another company that comes from behind.


Good observation

In all I've read about EEstor, I have never gotten an impression that they are a scam outfit.
Ask yourself one question - why would you concentrate on production issues if you do not even have a prototype to demonstrate to the public? where is the logic?

Ask yourself one question - why would you concentrate on production issues if you do not even have a prototype to demonstrate to the public? where is the logic?

It seems to me that you would concentrate on production issues only when your product was ready for production.

Ask yourself one question - why would you concentrate on production issues if you do not even have a prototype to demonstrate to the public? where is the logic?

What do they need the public for? The public just includes possible competitors! They need customers, and from what I have read, they are doing meetings with potential customers, after non-disclosures have been signed. So the potential customers can not talk about what they have been told!

What makes you so sure that EEStor does not have prototypes? They may have demonstrated the prototypes to potential customers, who can not tell the story due to non-disclosures. The reason for the silence is reasonable to me: you want as much of a head start as possible before telling your technology to your competitors; that guarantees an effective monopoly while they are catching up.

I don't think EEStor is, or ever was a scam outfit. However it is very possible that they have hit a significant snag in their development and the project is stalled. In the mean time they need operating capital so they go out fishing with "almost ready" and "near production ready" and secret "varification" to keep investors going. In this scenario, if they told the truth, they would be dead in a week and it is possible that the solution they need is just around the corner. There is a very good reason that high tech investments are considered to be highly risky.

Here is another article and blog about EEStor:
http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2008/8/5/3826346.html

"I truly got the sense that Weir is going to start talking more about this company, probably come this fall. But I also got the sense EEStor is more heavily involved with Lockheed than originally thought -- i.e. there's a big focus here on developing military applications using the technology. He called what he's working on as "Manhattan II." It makes sense, given that many great technological innovations have trickled down from work originally done at the military level -- GPS, the Internet, nuclear power.

"Also, I think this technology almost single handedly enables renewable energy sources to begin large scale displacement of fossil fuel electrical generation. Most of the major renewable energy technologies (solar, wind, tidal, wave) are intermittent, as well as being unable to respond to demand fluctuations, and therefore cannot replace baseload fossil/nuclear power generation, unless they are supplemented with cost-effective, large scale, high power/energy density storage. If EEStor tech proves out it is literally nothing less than the beginning of the end of the fossil fuel era.

I don't think EEStor is, or ever was a scam outfit. However it is very possible that they have hit a significant snag in their development and the project is stalled. In the mean time they need operating capital so they go out fishing with "almost ready" and "near production ready" and secret "varification" to keep investors going. In this scenario, if they told the truth, they would be dead in a week and it is possible that the solution they need is just around the corner. There is a very good reason that high tech investments are considered to be highly risky.

They hit that snag in 2003 when they quit advertising that they were only 3 months from production. That is why I quit taking them seriously.

What do they need the public for? The public just includes possible competitors! They need customers, and from what I have read, they are doing meetings with potential customers, after non-disclosures have been signed. So the potential customers can not talk about what they have been told!

What makes you so sure that EEStor does not have prototypes? They may have demonstrated the prototypes to potential customers, who can not tell the story due to non-disclosures. The reason for the silence is reasonable to me: you want as much of a head start as possible before telling your technology to your competitors; that guarantees an effective monopoly while they are catching up.
bs, if they want to make money and defeat competitors they should issue ipo and patents. they should be as public as possible. right now they do not even have a web site for christ sake! the secrecy and NDAs are only good to cover up scam as long as possible, because if they go public its scam will be revealed the very next day.
if they do have working prototype which works according their claims all they have to do is to call a press conference - they would have billions of dollars next day. fair enough to say they have nothing to demonstrate.

I think that this patent may be related to EEStor

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Im-AAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=%22Quantum+Supercapacitor%22

"Electrical capacitors having a large specific capacity on the base of solid dielectrics are known. For example the capacitor on BaTiO3 dielectrics have large permittivity .di-elect cons.>1000 and specific capacity of about 0.3 F/cm^3. However, in the majority of the power applications such specific capacity is not enough. To increase specific capacity different methods are applied. A most effective method is nanostructuring of dielectrics such as BaTiO3 by creation of nanosize clusters with a shell [1], or creation of thin nanosize films with metal doping [2]. With the help of such an approach, it is possible to increase permittivity up to .di-elect cons.=10^5-10^6 and to achieve specific capacity on the order of 100-1000 F/cm^3. In result, it is possible to receive specific energy reserved in the capacitor of on the order of 2-20 MJ/kg. The specific energy reserved in such capacitors considerably exceeds one, reserved in lead (0.08 MJ/kg) and nickel (0.15 MJ/kg) electrochemical accumulators and is commensurable with specific energy, reserved in best lithium accumulators (0.5MJ/kg) [3]."

"...as the reserved energy increases greater than 2 MJ/kg the film BaTiO3 cracks. Thus, it is impossible to achieve ... 20 MJ/kg practically..."

"Obviously, the advantage of capacitors compared to electrochemical accumulators is rapid accumulation of energy and unlimited quantity of the recharging cycles. However, in capacitors made in accordance with the foregoing patents the barium titanate with a high degree metals doping is used. It results in the transformation of dielectric to the semiconductor. In result, there is large leakage current that results in rapid loss of the stored energy. Hence, the application of such capacitors for long-term storage of energy is not effective."

"The essence of the invention is the improvement of the power characteristics of capacitors, their operating speed, creation of the capacitor having small leakage current and long storage time of a charge, and also unlimited number of recharging cycles."

"It is possible to solve this task by transition from a storage of a charge as ions to a storage of a charge as electrons."

bs, if they want to make money and defeat competitors they should issue ipo and patents. they should be as public as possible. right now they do not even have a web site for christ sake! the secrecy and NDAs are only good to cover up scam as long as possible, because if they go public its scam will be revealed the very next day.

Hmmm, what happens when you IPO a company? You loose control of the company to the Board of Directors. For the influx of money you (Weir) give up control, not what the group in Cedar Park is looking for from what I've read. I think they have played this very smart, showing the world a working prototype (before they are in production) doesn't gain them a single thing. What it does do is give companies a chance to reverse engineer it, steal it, buy it, before EESTOR can fully protect it.

It's funny that people say it can't be real unless EESTOR tells us how it works, but since they are fully funded through production, why let the cat out of the bag until they are delivered to customers? As soon as everyone knows how it works, hundreds of researchers the world over will begin making designs to take advantage of the phenomenon. A lot of them will be trying to make it work without violating the patent. So the longer the patent takes, the better for EESTOR. They have prior art at this point, They can add to and revise the original patent(s) after they are in mass production.

I doubt the Lockheed Martin deal went through without some money changing hands, Weir stated they've been talking since 2001. I'm also certain that LM didn't just "take their word for it" that the process and EESU's will work. But, at the same time, until they have a process to produce the EESU components in volume, all the talk of how well it works is moot. Same goes for the Volt, pictures and specs and prototypes are all well and good, but until hundreds are on the showroom floor it doesn't amount to anything more than "green PR", not even a "hill of beans" as my Granny used to say.

A good example is the Honda FCX Clarity Fuel Cell Vehicle. Oooh, Ahhh Honda's leasing 100 FCV's to Celebs in LA... long live the Hydrogen Car! Honda isn't changing the world a hundred cars at a time, not when those cars have $400,000 fuel cells in them. Nothing more than a PR stunt, and in 10 years, we'll see "Who Killed the Hydrogen Car". Except that it won't be a secret, everyone will be able to point to EESTOR and the Electric Car this time. The FCX doesn't matter because it isn't and won't be in production in the next 5 years. But because Honda wants and needs some Green PR it's a good move 'here people, look at the shiny hydrogen car isn't it pretty and clean". Honda isn't talking about the 5.5kg of CO2 released to make every KG of H2 that thing consumes, seems they forgot to put that part in the ad.

I can't think of a single thing EESTOR has to gain by shouting to the world that the eesu works and how it works. LM, KP and Zenn are taking care of funding the production lines, and Zenn and LM will purchase every EESU EESTOR they can make for the foreseeable future.

I hope they can build enough EESU production lines to produce millions of EESU units a year. If they can, cars like the Volt will be common place, and the range extender can be phased out completely on most models. Think how it changes City Buses... The bus has an EESU good for 30-60 min of run time, coupled with regen braking and at every 5th stop it charges at 440v, 50 amps for 2 min while loading and unloading passengers. It no longer has to contact overhead cables the entire route. Efficiency goes way up, and cost goes way up.

I can't think of a single thing EESTOR has to gain by shouting to the world that the eesu works and how it works. LM, KP and Zenn are taking care of funding the production lines, and Zenn and LM will purchase every EESU EESTOR they can make for the foreseeable future.



Are you kidding me? If EEstor indeed does have a device that can do what they say it will change the world almost over night. The biggest problem (assuming they have a real device - I doubt it) will be to ramp up production. They will need massive help from major manufacturers from around the world for this huge task. You can't think a if a single thing? How about these:

1) End our oil addiction and all the wars caused by that addiction.

2) Save lives. More energy storage will allow the poor of the world to eat.

3) Clean up all the pollution in the air (mostly cities where people are dying early from respiratory diseases - See Mexico City, Beijing, etc.)


Are those enough? If they really do have a workable device then their silence is one of the greatest, preventable cover-ups of a critical invention know to man. There, I said it. If indeed it's all true, this discovery is bigger than a tiny little company in hopes of becoming rich and famous. Besides, they would become so overnight because the obvious paradigm shift our civilization would take. Thus, I doubt they have anything anywhere near what they claim. It just makes no sense to deprive the world of this invention if it existed. People are dying for this technology... Literally!

EEscam or EEhumanitarian or EEbusiness plan or EEwantabe or EEcorporate

Take your pick. I'm sticking with EEscam for now. However, I will be one of the first ones to beg forgiveness and jump for joy should they deliver a working product that is even close to what they claimed. However, they had better have a good reason for not engaging the world’s resources to develop this life-changing technology as fast as possible.

EEscam or EEhumanitarian or EEbusiness plan or EEwantabe or EEcorporate


Heh, or EEStory as someone coined on the blog site.

This is why they are actually developing assembly lines. Companies can buy an assembly line setup and be in production with minimal fuss. Until that is developed, it is useless to start advertising the product.

It is still possible that EEStor can hit a last minute snag and will be unable to manufacture the capacitors. Business is inherently risky. Hopefully, if that happens, they will open up and explain. Otherwise I can see them getting egg on their face, literally, from angry people.

But if it works, I kind of pity GM. Here they've been trail blazers, spending a billion to get their technology going. And then, just as they are gearing for production, someone will come from the left field and blow right past them. Still, I am not married to GM, may the best car win. If ZENN or someone else comes out with a 200 mile EV, I'm buying, sorry GM.

But if it works, I kind of pity GM. Here they've been trail blazers, spending a billion to get their technology going. And then, just as they are gearing for production, someone will come from the left field and blow right past them. Still, I am not married to GM, may the best car win. If ZENN or someone else comes out with a 200 mile EV, I'm buying, sorry GM.

I, on the other hand, hope that somebody beats them so I don't have to buy from GM.

I, on the other hand, hope that somebody beats them so I don't have to buy from GM.

I know somebody with a 10 month old G6. The interior is already falling apart.

The Malibu is a good car. I believe in redemption.

Are you kidding me? If EEstor indeed does have a device that can do what they say it will change the world almost over night. The biggest problem (assuming they have a real device - I doubt it) will be to ramp up production. They will need massive help from major manufacturers from around the world for this huge task. You can't think a if a single thing? How about these:

1) End our oil addiction and all the wars caused by that addiction.

2) Save lives. More energy storage will allow the poor of the world to eat.

3) Clean up all the pollution in the air (mostly cities where people are dying early from respiratory diseases - See Mexico City, Beijing, etc.)



I think you totally missed what I was saying. EESTOR has nothing to gain by showing the world how the EESU works or if it works at all until they are in production. Showing how the technology works a year before they are in production gives the competition an extra year to catch up. Until production of EESUs is underway, they can not do 1, 2, or 3. No upside to EESTOR at all for spilling the beans early (before the manufacturing is in place). Big upside to their competitors, though.

So here is someone who agrees with me:
http://theeestory.com/articles/3

"The history of the energy storage market is peppered with tales of stolen intellectual property. Such is the opinion of a person I spoke with recently who is familiar with the industry and knowledgeable about many of the companies within it. Given this historical blemish, market participants have had to adopt increased caution in bringing innovations into being.

But it also has some EEStor Subject Matter Experts that did not end up smiling on their way to the airport:
"Like Burke, Miller was hired to assist with evaluating Weir's claims on behalf of potential investors. Miller added that he has actually been hired 3 times to evaluate Weir's claims and each time advised strongly against it.

I think you totally missed what I was saying. EESTOR has nothing to gain by showing the world how the EESU works or if it works at all until they are in production. Showing how the technology works a year before they are in production gives the competition an extra year to catch up. Until production of EESUs is underway, they can not do 1, 2, or 3. No upside to EESTOR at all for spilling the beans early (before the manufacturing is in place). Big upside to their competitors, though.




Yes, I guess I did miss your point. You said:

"I can't think of a single thing EESTOR has to gain by shouting to the world that the eesu works and how it works."


I just provided a few things that might override the decision to be in stealth mode until they secured their billions. They already have patents on the technology so they will be fine. I'll say it a gain, if they have a product that works and are just working on their own minuscule volume production line then what they are doing is criminal in face of the energy crisis we are in. How can you not think it isn‘t?

Of course they will not be able to do 1, 2 or 3. They are a tiny company! That's my point! All of the major manufactures on earth need to be gearing up to make these amazing energy storage devices. You may think I’m over reacting but in reality you are underestimating the value of what they claim. I'm talking practical electric cars (no hybrids needed), practical semi-trucks, electric airplanes and unlimited amounts of cheap storage for solar and wind farms. Are those small and insignificant applications that can be fulfilled by EEstor? The same company that doesn't even have a web site? You don't see anything wrong with this? It's just capitalism, man. Right? Amazing.

I'm sticking with the EEscam story and that they don't have anything anywhere near what they claimed or it's nowhere near releasing to manufacturing. If it were ready for release to manufacturing then they are sacrificing the welfare of the world for a few bucks. It's really that simple. That would make even Rush Limbaugh cringe... Maybe not.

If ZENN or someone else comes out with a 200 mile EV, I'm buying, sorry GM.

Have you heard about Tesla? Get out your big check book.

Yes, I guess I did miss your point. You said:

"I can't think of a single thing EESTOR has to gain by shouting to the world that the eesu works and how it works."


I just provided a few things that might override the decision to be in stealth mode until they secured their billions. They already have patents on the technology so they will be fine. I'll say it a gain, if they have a product that works and are just working on their own minuscule volume production line then what they are doing is criminal in face of the energy crisis we are in. How can you not think it isn‘t?

Of course they will not be able to do 1, 2 or 3. They are a tiny company! That's my point! All of the major manufactures on earth need to be gearing up to make these amazing energy storage devices. You may think I’m over reacting but in reality you are underestimating the value of what they claim. I'm talking practical electric cars (no hybrids needed), practical semi-trucks, electric airplanes and unlimited amounts of cheap storage for solar and wind farms. Are those small and insignificant applications that can be fulfilled by EEstor? The same company that doesn't even have a web site? You don't see anything wrong with this? It's just capitalism, man. Right? Amazing.

I'm sticking with the EEscam story and that they don't have anything anywhere near what they claimed or it's nowhere near releasing to manufacturing. If it were ready for release to manufacturing then they are sacrificing the welfare of the world for a few bucks. It's really that simple. That would make even Rush Limbaugh cringe... Maybe not.

I know pretty well what the ramifications are. It changes how we get to work, battlefields, the balance of power in the middle east, portable tools, purifying water in the desert, storage of solar and wind power, enables things like autonomous powered exo-suits, and turns a small Texas company into the next Edison Power crossed with Intel. The way to protect your interests, and ensure that it makes it to market is to keep quiet (to the world at large) until you can demonstrate actual working units rolling off the end of the production line.

Going on the assumption that it's real (and that is a big assumption I agree). And the assumption that it isn't ready for production yet (your quote). What does it gain them by demonstrating it? Their patents protect the implementation of their device, not the phenomenon that makes it possible. What's to stop someone else from applying the same techniques to a different material than Barium Titanate? Maybe, like with high temperature superconductors, there are a lot of combinations of material that work? If you show the world how it works 18 months before you can get it in production, your competition has 18 months to try and work around your patents.


I'll say it a gain, if they have a product that works and are just working on their own minuscule volume production line then what they are doing is criminal in face of the energy crisis we are in. How can you not think it isn‘t?

How does telling the world how it works (by releasing all the patents), and demonstrating that a lab built prototype works help them refine the process for manufacturability? Do you mean to take the technology away from them and let someone else build the first minuscule volume production line? A product that works in the lab and one made thousands of times a day are two different beasts. Go look up <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoresistive_Random_Access_Memory">MRAM</a>, and ask yourself if it works (and it does), why do computers still use DRAM? The answer is manufacturability. Not sure how going public helps them get it to market faster. At best it's a big distraction, at worst who knows. And in the case that they can't get it into production... what good does showing the world a hand built prototype do for them or us? It doesn't help develop the correct processes and equipment to move the technology from the design lab to volume manufacturing production, that's for sure.

Pretty sure they understand the potential market. And I'm also pretty sure they have a plan to build manufacturing capacity. One of the things I heard was that they plan to license the tech to customers so that they can build EESU's right on their on mfg plant grounds.

I know pretty well what the ramifications are. It changes how we get to work, battlefields, the balance of power in the middle east, portable tools, purifying water in the desert, storage of solar and wind power, enables things like autonomous powered exo-suits, and turns a small Texas company into the next Edison Power crossed with Intel. The way to protect your interests, and ensure that it makes it to market is to keep quiet (to the world at large) until you can demonstrate actual working units rolling off the end of the production line.

Going on the assumption that it's real (and that is a big assumption I agree). And the assumption that it isn't ready for production yet (your quote). What does it gain them by demonstrating it? Their patents protect the implementation of their device, not the phenomenon that makes it possible. What's to stop someone else from applying the same techniques to a different material than Barium Titanate? Maybe, like with high temperature superconductors, there are a lot of combinations of material that work? If you show the world how it works 18 months before you can get it in production, your competition has 18 months to try and work around your patents.



How does telling the world how it works (by releasing all the patents), and demonstrating that a lab built prototype works help them refine the process for manufacturability? Do you mean to take the technology away from them and let someone else build the first minuscule volume production line? A product that works in the lab and one made thousands of times a day are two different beasts. Go look up <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoresistive_Random_Access_Memory">MRAM</a>, and ask yourself if it works (and it does), why do computers still use DRAM? The answer is manufacturability. Not sure how going public helps them get it to market faster. At best it's a big distraction, at worst who knows. And in the case that they can't get it into production... what good does showing the world a hand built prototype do for them or us? It doesn't help develop the correct processes and equipment to move the technology from the design lab to volume manufacturing production, that's for sure.

Pretty sure they understand the potential market. And I'm also pretty sure they have a plan to build manufacturing capacity. One of the things I heard was that they plan to license the tech to customers so that they can build EESU's right on their on mfg plant grounds.




Your words just prove how you think about this technology. You are actually comparing MRAM to a disruptive energy storage device. Is that what you are doing?

Second, what’s this about "releasing the patents"? Do you even know how the system works? They are public domain once they are issued. Go ahead and look a few up.

This leads me to the next question. Have you ever worked on bringing up a manufacturing line? If you haven't then I can understand your confusion.

Finally, you only made more of an argument that they are not ready for mass production. If they were they would have prototypes, pilot lines etc. You can't just go to mass production without the other steps because you don't know what processes to automate and how to scale them up. Make sense?

They said they are getting ready to deliver volume product to Zenn. That means they have extremely high confidence in their product and processes and are basically receiving large manufacturing equipment, having it installed, writing control software, getting facilities hooked up and setting up all of the other millions of things needed to get a brand new line up and running.

So I will say it again. If they are at that point (which I doubt and the more I think about it the less confidence I have in their actual progress) then this type of preparation for mass production could be going on at multiple sites by people that know how to do things in huge volumes.

Now if they are just basically still fooling around with not only the pack design (that is going into the Zenn car) but also the chemistry, the actual production process development, manufacture of basic materials (like the ultra pure power - which they now claim to be able to do in huge quantities), etc. then I can see why they are still being quiet. If this is the case you can expect even more delays until we see any volume of product.

It's like the people who think you can start drilling now and the oil will be coming out in a few months. These people have no clue on how things are done, even if expedited. Same with a brand new high volume production line that builds a brand new product that has never been done before (and scientists still claim is impossible).

Beyond all of that simple technical stuff, I worry about you, Cobraphx. It's what you write that should have people wondering about you or maybe sleeping with one eye open when near you:

"What's to stop someone else from applying the same techniques to a different material than Barium Titanate? Maybe, like with high temperature superconductors, there are a lot of combinations of material that work?"


There! You said it. Assuming they are just working on the volume production (getting a specific product up for large numbers, like to fulfill orders from Zenn) but are still holding that holy-grail technology all to themselves for their own profit, that sounds good to you!

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not working for free either but this is a completely different situation. It's analogous to us being at war and your buddies at EEstor figured out the bomb but are not going to deliver the first two prototypes until they have the production line in full swing. That way they can really establish themselves and get a great jump on the competition. Yes, it's that important of a discovery if it does what they claim and they are as far as they claim (volume delivery to Zenn in a few months).

So I say EEscam or EEvil. The first is they have nothing and are just milking things in hopes of a miracle (if they are kind hearted) and the second is if they are sitting on a technology that will solve the energy crisis until they are assured of maximum profits. <burr>

Your words just prove how you think about this technology. You are actually comparing MRAM to a disruptive energy storage device. Is that what you are doing?

Second, what’s this about "releasing the patents"? Do you even know how the system works? They are public domain once they are issued. Go ahead and look a few up.

I'm comparing moving MRAM prototypes to production, to moving EESTOR prototypes to production. Neither is easy, I saw the first MRAM prototypes from the fab R&D pilot line in 2002 the company is now just getting the first low density products into the marketplace.

Guess what? The patents can't be issued until you complete the filing process. Wonder why there is one issued patent and 24 recently filed? Could it be that they delayed filling the substantial patents until they were close to production?


This leads me to the next question. Have you ever worked on bringing up a manufacturing line? If you haven't then I can understand your confusion.

Actually I've been working in semiconductor manufacturing for quite a while now. I've worked in the factory testing semiconductor processing equipment, done semiconductor equipment installation in new semiconductor fabs, provided engineering support in several volume semiconductor fabs in multiple countries, now I work in a semiconductor wafer test facility. So I have a pretty good idea how hard is to move from a 3" test wafer done in an R&D lab to building a 12" wafer production line and then actually producing a few hundred wafers a day on that line.


Finally, you only made more of an argument that they are not ready for mass production. If they were they would have prototypes, pilot lines etc. You can't just go to mass production without the other steps because you don't know what processes to automate and how to scale them up. Make sense?

They said they are getting ready to deliver volume product to Zenn. That means they have extremely high confidence in their product and processes and are basically receiving large manufacturing equipment, having it installed, writing control software, getting facilities hooked up and setting up all of the other millions of things needed to get a brand new line up and running.

So I will say it again. If they are at that point (which I doubt and the more I think about it the less confidence I have in their actual progress) then this type of preparation for mass production could be going on at multiple sites by people that know how to do things in huge volumes.

Now if they are just basically still fooling around with not only the pack design (that is going into the Zenn car) but also the chemistry, the actual production process development, manufacture of basic materials (like the ultra pure power - which they now claim to be able to do in huge quantities), etc. then I can see why they are still being quiet. If this is the case you can expect even more delays until we see any volume of product.

It's like the people who think you can start drilling now and the oil will be coming out in a few months. These people have no clue on how things are done, even if expedited. Same with a brand new high volume production line that builds a brand new product that has never been done before (and scientists still claim is impossible).


Very interesting stuff there... Not sure I actually follow you logic here. I assert that releasing info (prototypes and patents) before you are ready for volume production is not helpful if you are already fully funded for production (like EESTOR is). And you assert that if they are receiving equipment to build the first production line they could be building lots of production lines simultaneously. Until that first production line is producing product, the process controls, process monitors, equipment maintenance procedures, equipment qualification procedures, as well as the operation procedures are developed and in place it's foolish to build more than one production line. The R&D lab where you built the prototypes is of no help here.

Here are a few quotes from EESTOR's Weir:

"We were [funded] to put a production line in. So what we are putting in here is a production line. (production said slowly and with emphasis)"
"We fully plan to do a major expansion on this to meet anybody's requirement as we go forward"
"No, we've already done all the R&D and preproduction on this a long time ago. Now our [funding is] to put a production line in. This press release was put out to tell the people of our production successes that we have had."
"If we get challenged, we'll move to scale up," he said. "We have a lot of knowledge built up."


It's certainly sounds like they are in the process of building a production line (the first ever for their product). No company goes out and builds 40 production lines before they've built a single working line.


Beyond all of that simple technical stuff, I worry about you, Cobraphx. It's what you write that should have people wondering about you or maybe sleeping with one eye open when near you:

"What's to stop someone else from applying the same techniques to a different material than Barium Titanate? Maybe, like with high temperature superconductors, there are a lot of combinations of material that work?"

There! You said it. Assuming they are just working on the volume production (getting a specific product up for large numbers, like to fulfill orders from Zenn) but are still holding that holy-grail technology all to themselves for their own profit, that sounds good to you!

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not working for free either but this is a completely different situation. It's analogous to us being at war and your buddies at EEstor figured out the bomb but are not going to deliver the first two prototypes until they have the production line in full swing. That way they can really establish themselves and get a great jump on the competition. Yes, it's that important of a discovery if it does what they claim and they are as far as they claim (volume delivery to Zenn in a few months).

So I say EEscam or EEvil. The first is they have nothing and are just milking things in hopes of a miracle (if they are kind hearted) and the second is if they are sitting on a technology that will solve the energy crisis until they are assured of maximum profits. <burr>

So, you assert that the EESU should be public domain. Certainly a bit socialist of you, not the stand I'd expect from someone that goes by "Texas". Me on the other hand, I think they should be allowed to run their company and business the way they and their investors see fit. I'd guess that they have a vested interest in getting the EESU to production. They and their investors also have a vested interest in ramping production to meet demand. I'm sure money will be no object to ramping production if they can get a production line working and delivering EESUs.

We could also apply your logic to the Volt as well... it's been prototyped, and we know it works right? If half the American people were driving Volts, we would solve our oil import problem. So why don't we take the control of that technology from GM and build them in 10 production lines tomorrow? Maybe because they don't even have the first production line complete yet (like EESTOR). Maybe because the US is a free market. Maybe because GM will bring it to market on their own.

I'm comparing moving MRAM prototypes to production, to moving EESTOR prototypes to production. Neither is easy, I saw the first MRAM prototypes from the fab R&D pilot line in 2002 the company is now just getting the first low density products into the marketplace.

Guess what? The patents can't be issued until you complete the filing process. Wonder why there is one issued patent and 24 recently filed? Could it be that they delayed filling the substantial patents until they were close to production?



Actually I've been working in semiconductor manufacturing for quite a while now. I've worked in the factory testing semiconductor processing equipment, done semiconductor equipment installation in new semiconductor fabs, provided engineering support in several volume semiconductor fabs in multiple countries, now I work in a semiconductor wafer test facility. So I have a pretty good idea how hard is to move from a 3" test wafer done in an R&D lab to building a 12" wafer production line and then actually producing a few hundred wafers a day on that line.



Very interesting stuff there... Not sure I actually follow you logic here. I assert that releasing info (prototypes and patents) before you are ready for volume production is not helpful if you are already fully funded for production (like EESTOR is). And you assert that if they are receiving equipment to build the first production line they could be building lots of production lines simultaneously. Until that first production line is producing product, the process controls, process monitors, equipment maintenance procedures, equipment qualification procedures, as well as the operation procedures are developed and in place it's foolish to build more than one production line. The R&D lab where you built the prototypes is of no help here.

Here are a few quotes from EESTOR's Weir:


It's certainly sounds like they are in the process of building a production line (the first ever for their product). No company goes out and builds 40 production lines before they've built a single working line.



So, you assert that the EESU should be public domain. Certainly a bit socialist of you, not the stand I'd expect from someone that goes by "Texas". Me on the other hand, I think they should be allowed to run their company and business the way they and their investors see fit. I'd guess that they have a vested interest in getting the EESU to production. They and their investors also have a vested interest in ramping production to meet demand. I'm sure money will be no object to ramping production if they can get a production line working and delivering EESUs.

We could also apply your logic to the Volt as well... it's been prototyped, and we know it works right? If half the American people were driving Volts, we would solve our oil import problem. So why don't we take the control of that technology from GM and build them in 10 production lines tomorrow? Maybe because they don't even have the first production line complete yet (like EESTOR). Maybe because the US is a free market. Maybe because GM will bring it to market on their own.




I knew you were going to throw out the socialist card. A way to marginalize the situation. Well, if I'm being a socialist because I wish for a disruptive and, as you said, developed and ready to go technology to be put in the hands of more capable manufacturing experts so it can begin to relieve the pain and suffering of the world's populations, then call me a socialist. If on the other hand you can put a label on a person that would want to hide a cure for AIDS (life saving device) for the profit of a few of his best friends (shareholders) then I would not want to be associated with such greed and selfishness.

I think we all know how business works. I love the game myself. It's a very good system for motivating people by rewarding for hard work. However, if you associated EEstor’s discovery to that of a life saving drug would you still feel the same (assuming the drug has passed all trials and is ready for production and the line is being built and the product is certified for sale)? I'm guessing you really wouldn’t but are just trying to keep your side of the debate going. Remember, peoples lives are in the balance. People are dying because when energy prices shoot up that high people starve. Do you deny that? Would the discovery of a disruptive energy device help? If you say yes but still think the company has a right to profit first then nobody can help you. How about when the energy prices jump like they did due to the impending energy crisis and that resulted in the massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. Those poor people's lives have been ruined. This is happening very silently today. I'm sure you are aware of this. Ruined people forced to start again from scratch after doing the right thing for 20 or 30 years. Small business owners, transportation businesses, etc. The economy is crashing around you but you see nothing wrong with these guys holding back? What's the matter with you?

Of course I understand how manufacturing works. Again you are just trying to weed yourself out of your silly position. Let's take manufacturing out of the argument and say that they have a product that is well tested and they are simply ramping up to volume. That is what you just posted. Not that they are working on major process development. They are just ramping. Don't try to squirm out of it. We both know there is a difference. I'm not saying to release anything that is not ready and would best be done by the experts in-house. I not saying that because it's obvious.

We are talking about two choices. There is a disruptive energy device that can help with the current energy crisis. Do you 1) hold on to it to ensure your wealth in the face of other's suffering or 2) Do the right thing and call some meeting and license out the technology to the really big boys? That's what we are talking about. Try to keep from dancing around the issue.

Thus, I'm saying if they are doing 1) they are criminals. This is a wartime condition. I think most moral people can agree with that. I'm thinking that the guys over in the tiny building in Texas with a small sign that says EEstor (maybe not) on it are good guys that know exactly where they are. We, on the other hand, can only guess. Therefore, I conclude that they are not holding anything back. They are just not that far along to hand anything out! It's the only case that makes sense.

Thus, EEstor is not as far along in their development as they claim. Products are going to be delayed and of diminished performance. Hopefully it will be a step forward but is probably not going to be disruptive. They know it, now we know it. Anything else would be a crime against humanity.

I read all these new post for what... nothing. Basically everyone here has the same views... so let argue about it. ;)

Who disagrees with the points below.
1. Nobody here knows if the EEStor device will work when manufactured.
2. Everyone agrees that it would change the world like nothing ever has including the atomic bomb, the wheel and sliced bread.

check out zeen motor cars ... early on they invested some millions in eestor and licensed the technology exclusively for automotice uses the same way lockheed martin has licensed the technology for military uses. znn.v is publicly traded. I do own some shares and treat is as purely speculative. i am aware of the various limitation of barium titanate, etc. the point is GM COULD BUY THIS ZENN COMPANY FOR A SONG AND SNAP UP THE EESTOR TECHNOLOGY FOR SFA. it would literally cost GM LESS than the amount of money they spend on developing any new nbattery technology ... and if it works as EESTOR says then buying Zenn, a tiny Canadian company easily absorbable in GM, could not only save GM it could catapult them into the stratosphere! Wagoner is a bit of a dope but this could save GM if it works and the leverage costs here are unbelievably low. I want a VOLT but if the EESTOR technology works I am buying a Zenn - sorry. I'd rather be sitting on a cool running high discharge capacitor than a lithium ion thermal event ..

Zenn has licensed the EESTOR technology exclusively for automotive uses ... GM could not buy the technology from EESTOR and would have to deal with ZENN. GM should just buy ZENN (ZNN.V on the TSX)

http://www.zenncars.com/ and read about their relationship with eestor

good luck to all

If this EEstor stuff works out it's gonna be ZENN buying GM, not the other way around.

DEFINITELY NOT TH OTHER WAY AROUND ... DON'T BE SILLY.

I do own a few throusand sahres of znn.v however. i think it is not a bet the farm stock and that it is highly speculative. However, if the eestor technology works as touted then yes - ZNN.V will be worth a lot more and GM would be well advised to acquire ZNN.V and all of Zenn Motorcars. another scenario would have gm licensing the technology from ZNN. Basically if it does work i am loading up on ZNN.V!:D

Zenn has licensed the EESTOR technology exclusively for automotive uses ... GM could not buy the technology from EESTOR and would have to deal with ZENN. GM should just buy ZENN (ZNN.V on the TSX)

Not so. Zenn only has the rights for cars under a certain weight. GM could bypass zenn and incorporate the EEStor device in the heavy SUV's and such.

ZENN has exclusive rights in cars up to 3,000lbs. The Volt is expected to weigh about 3,500lbs (which is kind of heavy thanks to both a genset and a pack). The other exclusive-use license is military and homeland security applications, and those are taken by Lockheed Martin.

I am backing up the truck on this one if it works and have increased my position in znn.v i do not own any gm stock but were gm to even announce they were looking at eestor technology i would then buy more znn.v and some gm stock. gm is not going to get into any potential lawsuit over a weight dispute. when you have as much money as they do potentially you just come in with a clean slate, but your competitors and "motor" on ..... Gm wants Eestor technology they will have to buy Zenn or license the technology through zenn. sweet for zenn stockholders. a lawsuit would be guaranteed and instantaneous if gm were to try by any other means ... of course zenn owns potentially as much as 10% of eestor too so you have to consider that. i want deperately an electric car to get me 30 miles (50 km) into work each day and 30 miles home - i can charge at work - but i need to be able to hit speeds of 100 km/h (60 mph) so the current zenn is not good and gm has nothing. if eestor works, and the gm volt could have that powerplant i would be all over getting a few cars and dumping what i have now fairly quickly. i would at that point also consider incorporating solar and wind at home to charge my cars and power my home - i live in the countyr and i am ready to leaver oil somewhat behind. i would rather we had oil to make drugs and the other things electricity can not replace. why use oil to generate power or use it for transportation. The military application for lockheed is huge too - if eestor delivers by lockheed stock too :)

. . . to publish actual performance figures* prior to an IPO, assuming that the performance figures show outstanding performance? This would eliminate the "scam" fog that has been surrounding the company.

* verifed by one or more independent, reputable test labs