http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/videos.aspx?Num=1

The first FCX Clarity fuel cell vehicle that's ready for the road emerged from the production facility on June 16, 2008, and was appropriately marked with a gala celebration.

As part of the ceremony, the first lucky Southern California customers to slip behind the wheel of this sophisticated clean machine were announced. A few of the hand-picked drivers attended the ceremony, including film producer Ron Yerxa (Little Miss Sunshine) who will take first delivery in July, actress Laura Harris, and the original FCX driver, Jon Spallino. The Spallino family leased the first FCX in 2005.

Other FCX Clarity early adopters include author and actress Jamie Lee Curtis, her filmmaker husband Christopher Guest, and business owner and car enthusiast Jim Salomon.

Honda plans to lease several dozen FCX Clarity models per year, totaling close to 200 units in the first three years. Since its Tokyo concept debut, Honda has received requests from nearly 40,000 individuals who have indicated their interest in receiving further updates about the vehicle and about being considered as future customers of Honda fuel cell technology.

Full PR: http://links.mkt015.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MjA0NjYwNgS2&r=MTMxNzg0NzQ2OTAS1&j=NTIwNTk5NTIS1&mt=1

I am happy to see the Japanese move forward with FCV, but they need to put a plug and some batteries in it, to further reduce a driver's transportation costs.

I absolutely hate the Prius shape to it. It is a 100% clean vehicle, so who cares how much mileage you lose due to a better looking design.

Fisker knows how to design a vehicle:

Link (http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/)

I absolutely hate the Prius shape to it. It is a 100% clean vehicle, so who cares how much mileage you lose due to a better looking design.


I do. No matter how "clean" the vehicle is, it still uses energy. And it is energy consumption that is at the root of all evil.

I do. No matter how "clean" the vehicle is, it still uses energy. And it is energy consumption that is at the root of all evil.

Typical Progressive - all consumption is bad - attitude. If the energy your vehicle uses is renewable, cheap and abundant, then there is no reason to limit it in any way.

I absolutely hate the Prius shape to it. It is a 100% clean vehicle, so who cares how much mileage you lose due to a better looking design.
Link (http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/)

Looks like Honda borrowed the Prius dies from Toyota. UCK!

I'm going to take the space here to post something that probably should rightfully be in a separate post, but here goes anyway...

The Prius has become so prevalent on the road that my wife equates the Prius with hybrid and electric cars. She thinks that they all look like that and that they will all always have that shape. AND SHE HATES IT! She wants style. When I told her we were getting a Volt when they became available her first reaction was, "I won't drive one of those ugly things". When I pressed her what she meant, she said, "I see those hybrids on the road all the time and they are just so ugly". We were driving at the time, so I said, "Why do you say that?" She pointed at a Prius and said, "There! That's one of them. I hate those. They are just so ugly".

Well folks, she was partly right, the Prius is butt ugly. When I explained to her that the Toyota Prius was just one of several different hybrids on the road she didn't know that. She had no idea that some of the others like the Civic or the Escape, were hybrids and looked just like "real cars", as she put it.

Anyway, Toyota has done a great branding job with Prius. They made it stand out, and they managed to capture an entire sub-group of car buyers who actually want an ugly car. (They used to buy VW Beatles didn't they?) But in the process they have convinced a lot of totally uninformed people that electric cars have to be different looking and they have to be ugly. GM will have some marketing work to do to overcome this bias. I'm assuming of course that Chevy makes the Volt look good. If they make another ugly Prius knock-off. Well, let's hope that there are still more ex-VW buyers out there who haven't bought a Toyota yet.

pennor,

Make sure she gets a good look at the link I provided above. I think the Fisker is the best looking of any car - standard, hybrid or electric.

What is wrong with me today? I agree on a major point that Jason brought up. I also believe that once we hit stride with clean, renewable and sustainable use of our resources we should push it to the max. The more we use the more it pushes us to get more. First we harness the power of the Earth. Then we move out and use more of the power from the sun and so on and so on. This is how we as a civilization evolve.

We are a far from that point in our evolution. We now must conserve the best we can and wean ourselves from non-renewables. That’s why I think the Prius is a very sharp car. Maybe I just see the efficiency or that it’s the start of something great. I like it. The new Honda hydrogen car is beautiful! What are you all thinking? Anyway, even if it’s still just a science project and by the time they produce number 201 in three years there will be a quick-charge battery that makes the hydrogen car obsolete we should all cheer.

Let all celebrate the first production hydrogen car. I hope this will get us all moving quickly down the technology curve. When is the first American hydrogen car coming out? I have no idea. Regardless, this is good technology development! Thus, the BEV will win but hydrogen technology will probably be quite useful.

Too bad these cars cost Honda hundreds of thousands to make.

We should strive to make our own sun and harness its power. Go Nuclear fusion...

Too bad these cars cost Honda hundreds of thousands to make.Try millions.

I do. No matter how "clean" the vehicle is, it still uses energy. And it is energy consumption that is at the root of all evil.

And all this time I thought money was.:rolleyes:

pennor,

Make sure she gets a good look at the link I provided above. I think the Fisker is the best looking of any car - standard, hybrid or electric.

I'd take the Lightning over the Fisker. The Fisker's grill looks like the Joker from Batman. It's over the top a bit and a little cartooney. The Lightning is pretty darn good all around except the rear window buttresses are way too big and chunky. A little tweeking on both cars and they could be world classics. I'd probably take the Camaro over either one for looks though. Love the tough, scrappy muscle car look.

And it is energy consumption that is at the root of all evil.
Now thats just plain silly.
All living things must consume energy, and we all feed on death; including vegetarians.
Even a self made man depends on the sun for his survival.

Try millions.

Maybe hundreds of millions.

pennor,

Make sure she gets a good look at the link I provided above. I think the Fisker is the best looking of any car - standard, hybrid or electric.

I agree. The Fisker is a real looker! I just don't have any faith that I'll ever actually see one in person. 60 years ago the Tucker was a real looker and technological inovator. There were 48 of them made before the company went belly up. Therein lies the problem with all of these little companies with great web sites and cool products. I doubt that 1 in 50 of them will ever market a product and I seriously doubt that any of them will be able to take on the established manufactuers. I chear their efforts. I even drool over their concept cars, even if most of them only exist as JPG's in a computer server somewhere. Maybe this is why I'm so excited about the Volt. I think GM can pull it off and sell me a real car.

What is wrong with me today?

Did you forget to take your medication?

Typical Progressive - all consumption is bad - attitude. If the energy your vehicle uses is renewable, cheap and abundant, then there is no reason to limit it in any way.

Your backward thinking got us into this mess. I want reliability, safety and economy regardless of the appearance of the vehicle. Hello, it is transportation not ART.

I agree. The Fisker is a real looker! I just don't have any faith that I'll ever actually see one in person. 60 years ago the Tucker was a real looker and technological inovator. There were 48 of them made before the company went belly up. Therein lies the problem with all of these little companies with great web sites and cool products. I doubt that 1 in 50 of them will ever market a product and I seriously doubt that any of them will be able to take on the established manufactuers. I chear their efforts. I even drool over their concept cars, even if most of them only exist as JPG's in a computer server somewhere. Maybe this is why I'm so excited about the Volt. I think GM can pull it off and sell me a real car.

Fisker has based his vehicle on alternative propulsions systems from a Tier 1 supplier to the automotive industry, and is contracting manufacturing in Europe and the US, which is done all the time. His business model is sound, whereas DeLorean's was not - he tried to build his own factories.

Your backward thinking got us into this mess. I want reliability, safety and economy regardless of the appearance of the vehicle. Hello, it is transportation not ART.

Whoa, there, big boy.

Car design, like clothing design, home design, computers, cell phones, furniture, buildings, etc...... ANYTHING that is made practically, is produced for function AND appeal. Cars are not "just transportation", no more than a home is "just a roof and 4 walls". People aspire for many things depending on your position on the economic ladder. Aspirations are what drives people to do better, live better, get better education. Key to aspirations are the design, style, and appeal of the cars, homes, clothes, etc that they desire. Like it or not, we do not live in a logical, analytical, emotionless world.

If the ART is taken out of car design, and everything else apparently by your apparent lack of appeciation for it, the world would be a depressing place. Modern economies are designed around the appeal and style of products, as well as function.

We don't live in holes in the ground for a more than one reason, you know. :)

And I echo everyone else here, the Fisker is a beautiful car. There is no reason our electric cars have to look like a Prius when you look at a Fisker Karma.

Good design costs the same as ugly design.

And I echo everyone else here, the Fisker is a beautiful car. There is no reason our electric cars have to look like a Prius when you look at a Fisker Karma.


Well, it's taken me a while to pluck up the courage to speak up on this point on a forum that is so obviously biased against the Prius.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the appearance of the Prius. In fact, it beats hands down the appearance of other Toyota's such as the Camry or the Corolla. Not to mention anything from GM. In addition to the sleek outside appearance, a lot of attention was paid to ergonomics on the inside, and the car is loaded with conveniences and luxuries.

The Fisker Karma, on the other hand, just looks like an ugly catfish! It blows my mind that anyone can find this thing with it's gaping (is it a mouth or a moustache?) hole attractive.

Typical Progressive - all consumption is bad - attitude. If the energy your vehicle uses is renewable, cheap and abundant, then there is no reason to limit it in any way.

No, actually I am a conservative, as in we should conserve our natural resources and be cautious in how we consume it.

I do agree, though, that if we can harvest the sun for most, if not all of our energy needs, instead of consuming terestial resources for energy, we will be much more prosperous, and be able to sustain our presence on this planet for far longer.

I am still very skeptical about any "renewable" energy that does not involve the sun directly or indirectly such as the wind or the rain (hydro). I suspect the grow and burn kinds of renewables will have many undesirable consequences that we cannot yet anticipate.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the appearance of the Prius. In fact, it beats hands down the appearance of other Toyota's such as the Camry or the Corolla. Not to mention anything from GM. In addition to the sleek outside appearance, a lot of attention was paid to ergonomics on the inside, and the car is loaded with conveniences and luxuries.

The Fisker Karma, on the other hand, just looks like an ugly catfish! It blows my mind that anyone can find this thing with it's gaping (is it a mouth or a moustache?) hole attractive.


Well, I have to agree that if there is anything on the Fisker that I do not like, it is the size and overall shape of the grille opening. I would prefer it to be somewhat smaller, like a Pontiac grille. This is a very small styling issue, since the grille opening, for an EV, is not integral to the car's mechanical function.

As far as the Prius, different people see different things, I guess. I know no one who prefers the Prius design over the Fisker design, or the Volt concept design for that matter. Of course my friends are a small sample and they are mostly car enthusiasts. But even my mom and dad preferred th Fisker.

You are obviously a Toyota fan, if you think the Prius is a more attractive design than "anything from GM". That's fine, and I could imagine you will find a few others that agree with you. I would guess that 99% of the public will not agree with that statement.

This forum is biased against the Prius, its a GM Volt forum last I checked. I would imagine a Prius forum would be biased against the Volt. But I wouldn't know since I have zero interest to visit one.

Well, it's taken me a while to pluck up the courage to speak up on this point on a forum that is so obviously biased against the Prius.

I'm not biased against the Prius at all, though I'll freely admit to being much more interested in the next generation design that I ever have been in the current and previous model styling.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the appearance of the Prius. In fact, it beats hands down the appearance of other Toyota's such as the Camry or the Corolla. Not to mention anything from GM. In addition to the sleek outside appearance, a lot of attention was paid to ergonomics on the inside, and the car is loaded with conveniences and luxuries.




Wow!! ANYTHING from GM?? You are kidding, right? Prius? Sleek?
I can hardly believe that anyone buys a Prius for its styling. People are buying Prius because there is no competition for it. Yet. I was at Volt Nation. I can tell you that once the Volt is out, the Prius #'s are going to go waaayyyy down. I think Toyota knows that too.

I was at Volt Nation. I can tell you that once the Volt is out, the Prius #'s are going to go waaayyyy down. I think Toyota knows that too.

I was at Volt Nation too. However what we saw there and what we are actually going to get are two different things. We already know that from what they have said and what they have allowed us to see. $40k vs. $22k. A lot of people aren't going to be able to be get past an $18k difference and fairly tame looks. The Volt may cause the Prius sales to dip, but Toyota will still do just fine.

I was at Volt Nation too. However what we saw there and what we are actually going to get are two different things. We already know that from what they have said and what they have allowed us to see. $40k vs. $22k. A lot of people aren't going to be able to be get past an $18k difference and fairly tame looks.

You are assuming that what we will get is VERY different from what we saw at VOLT Nation. I don't think it will be all that different. The VOLT is TOO IMPORTANT to GM to release a production VOLT that looks radically different from the VOLT concept. What we get may have smaller wheels (shame) but it will still look like the VOLT concept. People have and always will pay for what they want. It isn't always a logical choice/decision. If the production VOLT comes and looks far different from the VOLT concept, then Toyota will have won. They will have convinced the world that all EV's have to look like mounds of @*&$. The lemmings already think this way, and a non-VOLT looking VOLT would only re-affirm that. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason that EV's have to look like potato dumplings, er prius. VOLT sales will put a serious dent into prius sales. I only wish that GM was putting more VOLTS out initially, just so that this point can get driven home.....hard.

$18K is a big difference. If it was about $$ alone, then Hyundai would have it all over prius period---- there is a $10K difference between Hyundai and prius remember, and $10K is a lot of gas. So your argument about it being only a $$ issue is not correct. The prius must have some other cache over Hyundai that people are willing to shell out big extra $$ for. I believe there is a similar force at work with VOLT vs prius, and that the aestestics is just a part of that. Remember, with VOLT you don't EVER have to put gas in it if your driving needs are within the battery charge range. EVER. NONE. How far does prius get without gas??? And the price of gas is only going to continue going up, which helps bring the $18K difference back down. PLUS, the Feds are already talking about giving some of that back as a tax credit, also lowering the $$ difference. I will never drive a potato dumpling, nor probably a Toyota. I can't wait for VOLT, and it's killer good looks.

So now that I think about it, why does Toyota get a pass with seriously fugly vehicles? All we heard out of the car rag-mags was how ugly the Pontiac Aztek was. Women were warned to take their kids inside if they should see one of them coming in their direction. Don't cast your gaze on an Aztec, else risk being turned to stone. How come they aren't up in arms about Toyota? prius? Or any of the Scions? Let's see, the new retro FJ.......there is some seriously fugly driving around, two tone to boot. Wonder how great the mpg's are there? I smell some serious stink here...............

You are obviously a Toyota fan, if you think the Prius is a more attractive design than "anything from GM".

"Anything from GM" was too broad a statement. I am thinking of the cars Avis makes me drive when I go on out of town business, such as the HHR, G6, Monte Carlo and Impala (old style - haven't driven the new one yet).

The Opel Astra does not look too bad.

As for being a Toyota fan, while this is true, did you notice that I expressed my dislike for the Corolla and Camry styling as well?

J in MN,

I make broad statements too. Don't usually recognize them until its too late. Part of the fun here. But I still disagree about some things. The HHR is a neat little vehicle, from those I know who have one. I'm not a big fan either of the G6 styling, or the monte carlo. GM has its issues as well in the styling area, but they have shown some great potential in some cars. Thats why I have hope for them above most others.

Car rentals are not a good way to judge a model's selling points. Not the ones I've been in! And I've been in a lot too. Just another way the domestics have shot themselves in the foot, too many fleet sales of cheap cars. A bad impression.

I am just hoping GM can win back some customers who fled when the quality was poorer. They only have themselves to blame for this. But I have a problem with the quality gap arguments now, since I simply don't think it exists much anymore. I think people who promote a gap now are just playing with past prejudice, and that bothers me.

I just want GM to get a fair shake by comparison, thats all. I think if people did give them a fair chance, they would be selling a lot more cars. And the buyers would be surprisingly happy.

I finally got a number for the price of the new Honda hydrogen car. I was guessing that it cost around $250,000 but I was wrong! It cost $300,000! Yes, the cost will come down but not as fast as people think. This technology is extremely expensive from the cell and the storage to the cost of the electricity generation (about 4 times more than for batteries) Here is the video:



http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/07/03/lah.gg.japan.transport.cnn?iref=videosearch

I finally got a number for the price of the new Honda hydrogen car. I was guessing that it cost around $250,000 but I was wrong! It cost $300,000! Yes, the cost will come down but not as fast as people think. This technology is extremely expensive from the cell and the storage to the cost of the electricity generation (about 4 times more than for batteries) Here is the video:


http://us.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/07/04/vo.us.feet.surgery.ap
Incorrect link?

Here is the correct link:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/07/03/lah.gg.japan.transport.cnn?iref=videosearch

The Nikkei newspaper reported on July 12 that Nisshinbo (a textile company) and the Tokyo Institute of Technology succeeded in developing a carbon nano tube based material that replaces platinum for hydrogen fuel cell electrode/catalyzer. It is said to be able to replace about 60 grams of the precious metal currently used in a 150kW cell at 1/10 of the cost. Although this material alone does not solve all the challenges associate with the hydrogen fuel cells, it is a move in the right direction nonetheless.

G35X,

Pay no attention to Texas' rants on fuel cells, as he will misrepresent any number to bolster his position. If a major automaker designs and only builds a few hundred cars, of course each one will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. The question is, what would the vehicle cost if products in the tens or hundreds of thousands, using the same design?

Fortunately, GM is already moving ahead with a design that is extensively cost reduced as a Range Extender, which only needs to provide 70 hp constant, instead of 150 hp or more for a high performance ICE vehicle.

G35X,

Pay no attention to Texas' rants on fuel cells, as he will misrepresent any number to bolster his position. If a major automaker designs and only builds a few hundred cars, of course each one will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. The question is, what would the vehicle cost if products in the tens or hundreds of thousands, using the same design?

Fortunately, GM is already moving ahead with a design that is extensively cost reduced as a Range Extender, which only needs to provide 70 hp constant, instead of 150 hp or more for a high performance ICE vehicle.

I'd rather fill my Volt up with corn ethanol than hydrogen--what's that tell you about hydrogen Jason?

I'd rather fill my Volt up with corn ethanol than hydrogen--what's that tell you about hydrogen Jason?

It's a free country, brother, you do what you gotta do, and I will do, what I gotta do.

G35X,

Pay no attention to Texas' rants on fuel cells, as he will misrepresent any number to bolster his position. If a major automaker designs and only builds a few hundred cars, of course each one will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. The question is, what would the vehicle cost if products in the tens or hundreds of thousands, using the same design?



G35X, I suggest you listen to Jason's rants along with everyone else's so that you can take the positives and negatives from each side, think about it and come up with your own conclusions. Always beware of people that preach not to investigate different ways of thought. That’s why may people don't trust religion. If you are thinking about your spiritual path wouldn't it be a good idea to seriously study as many religions that you can to see what one fits you the best? It's not like all of our ancestors were born into the same religion. Right? Some made a choice that was right for them at that time. To blindly follow something because your parents or your political party says so seems childish.

Thus, if you care about an issue get as much information from as many different sources as possible. The left, the right, the scientific, the political, etc. Hear no evil see no evil speak no evil is not a good way to go though life informed and educated. When you don't listen to both sides you find yourself agreeing with everything that your "group" says. Yes it's easy, comfortable and you will have common topics to discuss with your friends and everyone in your "group" will be happy and argument free but that can also lead the whole "group" headed in the wrong direction towards disaster.

As an example, do you really think everyone on the Republican side feels we should be drilling ANWAR and that it will solve the gas price problems just because Bush says so? Outsiders would think that’s absurd but it's hard to argue with the fact that the Democrats and Republicans can be so amazingly dichotomous in thought. Same situation, circumstances, culture, etc. It's the herd mentality at work. Don’t be cow, make your own educated choices!

Texas,

I am not warning him from seeking good information, just warning him that you present intentionally misleading information. Pointing at the unit cost of fuel cells in a 600 vehicle run without admitting it, and not seeking the answer to the next logical question - "What would it cost in volumes of 10,000's and 100,000's?" - is bad information from a disingenuous source.

Texas,

I am not warning him from seeking good information, just warning him that you present intentionally misleading information. Pointing at the unit cost of fuel cells in a 600 vehicle run without admitting it, and not seeking the answer to the next logical question - "What would it cost in volumes of 10,000's and 100,000's?" - is bad information from a disingenuous source.



I have talked about the costs of hydrogen technology in countless other threads. Just because something is mass produced doesn't mean the price can drop to competitive levels. Yes, the price of hydrogen cars will come down if mass produced. I thought that was obvious. However, due to the complicated nature of the systems and the exotic materials used I feel the costs will never be close to those of the simple quick-charge BEV. Do I need to say it again? A three inch thick carbon fiber hydrogen tank used in the hydrogen storage system will always be expensive. Most importantly the inefficiency of the entire electricity-to-hydrogen-to-electricity process, which is 4 times less efficient than direct wall -to-battery electrical storage, will seal it's fate for not being able to compete with the BEV, yet alone the plug-in hybrid. OK, I'll say it again... Place your bets and we will see in 5 years.

Oh, and I'm glad you brought up the article about the electrolyzes getting more efficient. Did you mention that in the article the author states that it will not only help electrolyzers but batteries as well? Nanotechnology will transform our lives in many ways. The increased surface area allows for more reactions. This is good news for all technologies. I'm still waiting to see real products with real prices. That way we can see how much of a benefit they will be and when.

Misinformation? Where? I stated the price of the hydrogen cars. It came directly from Honda. How is that misinformation? If anything you are misleading people into thinking that mass production reduces the cost of everything to acceptable and competitive levels. However, I don't think you do it on purpose. I just feel you have no idea what you are talking about most of the time. It's all good. It's interesting to hear what different people think about different topics of interest. The more people talk about these important issues the more they will get curious to get the right facts, look at the numbers and make informed decisions. Just because you don’t look at the numbers (those silly things), doesn’t mean others will ignore them. I hope.