http://automobilist.iblogger.org/?p=1212

This test of various hybrids shows the Tahoe and Cobalt would not be acceptable in some European Countries!
I hope the Volt has been shielded since GM plans to sell the car world wide (Sweadan's Limit is 2Mg) . Thanks for the assurance on this forum that the Volt is shielded. However, I would appreciate Anybody with actual numbers for the Volt? Please no rhetoric that long term EMF is absolutely safe because it has never been determined either way. I'm not dropping 40k+ on a car that may be hazardous to my kids! Thanks.

http://automobilist.iblogger.org/?p=1212

This test of various hybrids shows the Tahoe and Cobalt would not be acceptable in some European Countries!
I hope the Volt has been shielded since GM plans to sell the car world wide (Sweadan's Limit is 2Mg) . Thanks for the assurance on this forum that the Volt is shielded. However, I would appreciate Anybody with actual numbers for the Volt? Please no rhetoric that long term EMF is absolutely safe because it has never been determined either way. I'm not dropping 40k+ on a car that may be hazardous to my kids! Thanks.

LOL
Hardly what anyone would call a "scientific" test. Some random blogger website in Russia can put to print anything they want, even Wikipedia has more credance! lol But did you even bother to read the article?

We can’t say whether the EMF levels we measured have any significance to people’s health or not. Even the highest reading we got, 30 mG in the Cobalt, doesn’t seem that high in the grand scheme of things. The Earth’s magnetic field, to which all of us are subject, has a strength of 500 mG--many times what we measured in any of our cars.
<SNIP> In this series of tests, we found no evidence that hybrids expose drivers to significantly more EMF than do conventional cars. Consider this myth, busted LOL So the "myth" was apparently "busted" according to these goofballs anyways so just how is it supporting your concern?
Rediculous

The Volt (and the Tahoe hybrid) meets or exceed all current standards for vehicular EMF emissions (and yes the Volt/Ampera meets the European standards as well- otherwise they could not be sold into those markets)
If you wish debate the validity of those standards or the testing methodologies used then I suggest you take it up with the FCC/EPA or your Congressman.

WopOnTour

http://emf.mercola.com/sites/emf/emf-dangers.aspx

You're probably right, damn the torpedoes full speed ahead!

This subject is above my pay grade.
http://emf.mercola.com/sites/emf/emf-dangers.aspx
You're probably right, damn the torpedoes full speed ahead!
Seriously??
Look. I didnt mean to imply your understanding of this subject had anything to do with your pay grade, and you can certainly go ahead believe all that Dr. Mercola says if you want. (your prerogative)
But he's widely known as being somewhat of a quack and "scare tactic" practitioner at the very least.
(according to him everything from breast milk to vaccines are extremely bad for you)
So please feel free to believe whatever and whomever you want and by all means go out and BUY Dr. Mercola's magical convection oven if you feel microwave ovens are poisoning your children.

But please ease off on the hysteria on the Volt's EMF (or Tahoe, Cobalt etc)
By my count more than 3/4 of your 8 posts are associated with the Volt's EMF emissions in which people keep responding to you (myself and others) that it meets all current emissions standards so...
I'm not too sure what more you would want?
What are your wanting in an answer?
Validation that the Volt is dangerous and shouldn't be sold?
Do you dispute the EMF standards the Volt and other cars must comply too?
Are you planning a class action suit?
I'm not too sure...

But here' a link to another EMF response from Angie (a Volt Customer Service Advisor) so I guess you can either take it or leave it
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5190-Is-Volt-safe-for-people-with-electrically-powered-implants...&p=45873#post45873
So again, you can believe the info you're being given... or not (your prerogative)

Torpedos away!!
JMO
WOT

What are your wanting in an answer?

My guess is "a number". From a quick read of the link, I'm guessing kff would prefer a number <= .5 mG. But apparently would tolerate 2 mG. I'm not sure if kff wants that measured where his head is, or the front of the driver's seat.

I'm not sure if kff wants that measured where his head is, or the front of the driver's seat.

You might be able to accomplish that with one measurement...

My guess is "a number". From a quick read of the link, I'm guessing kff would prefer a number <= .5 mG. But apparently would tolerate 2 mG. I'm not sure if kff wants that measured where his head is, or the front of the driver's seat.
You might be able to accomplish that with one measurement...

LOL
Umm yea, just a minute while I go fetch my "E-Meter" LOL
Seriously though emissions standards are based on real medical science not hocus pocus.
Perhaps I went a bit overboard, but I'm not going to just sit here while someone posts BS about unsafe GM products with absolutely ZERO science to back it up. (and then have the nerve to respond facetiously about their/my pay grade?) Pass the tinfoil...
My apologies to all if I offend
WOT

http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/2000C0JK.txt?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=2006%20Thru%202010|2000%20Thru%202005|1995%2 0Thru%201999|1991%20Thru%201994|1986%20Thru%201990 |1981%20Thru%201985|1976%20Thru%201980|Prior%20to% 201976|Hardcopy%20Publications&Docs=&Query=emf&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=2&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&XmlQuery=&File=D%3A\ZYFILES\INDEX%20DATA\91THRU94\TXT\000000 04\2000C0JK.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h|-&MaximumDocuments=15&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r85g16/r85g16/x150y150g16/i500&Display=hpfr&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1&SeekPage=x

I apologize, I was just trying diffuse the posts with humor. I stole the pay grade thing from Commander Thad
Allen (BP oil spill )his canned response to a lot of questions . (WOT) I don't take offense, I think were both right.
The most credible source I could find is the EPA link. From what I read on page 7, the EPA really has no guidelines because it was never determined if EMF is a hazard or not. MY question to GM Is how could they or anybody else put out statements that Hybrids meet guidelines? What guidelines, If the EPA has no clue?

Really my only motivation is to drive a safe car and save gas, I like the volt and want GM to succeed. I believe any car company should use shielding in spite of the extra cost just to be on the safe side, Probably the Volt is ok . I did e-mail that Angie at GM asking for actual numbers (2 weeks ago no response). Yes readings at the head and upper body are probably more important.

What's my motivation? I went through this before and actually returned a brand new Camry in 2007
If you have some time to kill Google "Bringing back the hybrid for a Camry LE" It's a crazy post that ended with a New York times Article! WOT , you're really going to think i'm off the wall now!!I'm going to put my tinfoil hat on !
I have read that Toyota quietly addressed the EMF issue in their new Pirus.

I like this forum it's civil with knowledgeable people so I hope this post doesn't explode as well.

I like this forum it's civil with knowledgeable people so I hope this post doesn't explode as well.
Not at all
My apologies as well ( I may have taken your reply the wrong way- damn textual medium and all) ;)
Thanks for the full explaination
I hope you find the data you are looking for
WOT

OK, I accept certain things ... (1) I have no idea if this has any science behind it; (2) it does not matter to me one way or the other as I do not know what to believe (3) when you look for an EMF Field Tester it is filed under "Paranormal Equipment" [evidently the Tahoe and Cobalt are haunted] and (4) I am not a scientist, anything I say has absolutely zero basis in science and does not endorse any view of EMF fields.

That being said I got use of a Lutron Model EMF-822A EMF Field Tester [made in Taiwan so you know it is good].

Here is what I found:

1. My 2009 Impala (engine running)
a. Driver's Floor Mat reading 0.5 Gauss
b. Driver's Seat 0.3 Gauss
c. Passenger Floor Mat 0.7 Gauss
d. Passenger Seat 0.3 Gauss

2. My Blackberry 0.5 Gauss

3. The Wireless Router in my home office 10.6 [There may be a spirit here it is an old house]

4. My HP Laptop 0.7 Gauss

5. A Dell Desktop Computer (on the side of the case) 1.9 Gauss

6. The Chevy Volt (in EV Mode only; I am not driving it for close to 50 miles to get into CS mode) [yes I am getting about 46-48 miles in EV mode on average when I drive the new way that the car taught me, pretty cool]

Drum roll please ... well believe it or not it says 0.1 Gauss where ever I place the meter in the vehicle. Before you attack me please read the disclaimer above. These are uncontrolled non-scientific results that may not be able to be duplicated by anyone with any knowledge about anything. In fact it is my belief that these results will have the same chance of being reproduced as any successful cold fusion reactions reported to date. If you would like to do your own tests, go online and drop a few bucks on some paranormal detection equipment and start looking for your own ghosts. If you believe in ghosts, and I might, it looks like the Volt is better than most vehicles on EMF issues. If you have access to a real scientist you may disagree.

I hope everyone else is having as much fun as I am, enjoy the ride!

Mike

2. My Blackberry 0.5 Gauss
Your Blackberry wasn't in a call, or sending/receiving a message, right?

3. The Wireless Router in my home office 10.6 [There may be a spirit here it is an old house]Yeah, it's a transmitter. Radio Waves == EMF. That's the whole point.

4. My HP Laptop 0.7 Gauss
5. A Dell Desktop Computer (on the side of the case) 1.9 GaussAre your laptops operating wired? I'd be surprised if they were operating 802.11 with this low an EMF. Now that I think of it, is 802.11 DTX (Discontinuous Transmission)? OK, maybe you were wireless and just not saying anything.

6. The Chevy Volt [snip] Drum roll please ... well believe it or not it says 0.1 Gauss where ever I place the meter in the vehicleWas this measured idle, or at 65 MPH? I presume the car was at least booted. But not terribly surprising. The car is one big Faraday cage, with the battery in a completely sealed separate Faraday cage. Still, it'd be interesting to see the number under maximum acceleration.

Your Blackberry wasn't in a call, or sending/receiving a message, right?

The blackberry was not. I sent a message, does not seem to spike higher when sending emails. Did not try a call.

Yeah, it's a transmitter. Radio Waves == EMF. That's the whole point.

I think that is a great point. My point was that if you are concerned about EMF from a car, there are a lot of things around the house I would be worried about first. For me it does not matter, I ride a motorcycle and expect to die any day now. A little EMF does not worry me.

Are your laptops operating wired? I'd be surprised if they were operating 802.11 with this low an EMF. Now that I think of it, is 802.11 DTX (Discontinuous Transmission)? OK, maybe you were wireless and just not saying anything.

No the laptop is operating wireless (hence the wireless network at home)

Was this measured idle, or at 65 MPH? I presume the car was at least booted. But not terribly surprising. The car is one big Faraday cage, with the battery in a completely sealed separate Faraday cage. Still, it'd be interesting to see the number under maximum acceleration.

Both the Impala and the Volt were at idle. I might take the EMF meter on a ride tomorrow to see if there is a difference at speed. Does anyone really care?

Honestly, the EMF Field Tester seems more suited to tracking down ghosts. I am sure there is a real scientist out there who will use a more sophisticated tool to determine if there are strong electromagnetic fields in cars and some other scientist who will be happy to take the governments money to try to determine if EMF has a negative impact on humans.

Again read the disclaimer in my previous note. As the professional wrestlers and online gaming industries say ... This post is for "Entertainment or Amusement Purposes Only."

Does anyone really care?

Apparently, kff. As someone who works with radios for a living, I find it amusing. I've spent more than my fair share of time inside a Faraday chamber, with a hot transmitter (OK, many - some of them transmitting hard as jammers) on the "wrong" side of the wall...

Thanks Mike for taking the time to measure! I'll test my wireless router tonight to see if it matches your findings as a base line for both our meters. If possible could you let the battery drain then test the car in generator mode, also with regenerative braking?
Could you check along the battery and the back seats as well? In 2007 before I returned my Camry Hybrid I found that when in EV mode the car was fine, showing low levels. But in charging mode the meter showed very high spikes- it was pegged in some parts of the car at 100mG.

I'm not a scientist either, I talked to the people at lessEMF.com (they are a huge supplier of EMF shielding) who recommended the Trifeld analog meter. To properly test a vehicle in a lab cost about $5,000. However, I believe the meter will give ballpark readings at least .

Even if EMF may not be problem, it's interesting to see if GM shielded the vehicles.

Ha! Maybe it is ghosts! Reminds me of Ghostbusters, a great flick! "Don't think of the Stay Puff Marsh mellow Man"!

Like Rusty, I've done some things that would be considered "unsafe" by OSHA: I worked at an AM radio station where if you left a long length of wire hanging around, you'd get a "bite" if you touched an end. We didn't have to have a device to put "music on hold" on the telephone system because the station's RF got into it anyway - we couldn't stop it if we tried (and we did try).

Anyway, I'm sure there is an FDA specification for how much insect matter can be in a certain food. Even though I know it's not harmful and that I've probably eaten a few bugs unknowingly, I'd like the ability to choose to eat the product with the LEAST amount of bug juice in it. Of course, I'd need to know how much stuff is in each brand/variety of food.

So, kff is trying to minimize his exposure to something he's not sure of. Certainly not irrational.

One interesting thing about E-cars and hybrids is that even though they use a large amount of electricity, they will not neccessarily emit a large amount of EMF. First, the battery is arranged to give high voltage low(er) current vs. lower voltage and high current. Magnetic fields produced by electricity are proportional to current - not voltage. Since we're talking about a lot of power, all electrical returns are independent of chassis ground (+ is one wire and - another). This means that no current should flow through the chassis AND since the battery wiring is done in pairs (triads for the motor and controller), the electric and magnetic fields will cancel each other out (for the most part).

kff, keep testing with your e-meter - even if EMFs are not harmful, high readings may indicate poor design.

Like Rusty, I've done some things that would be considered "unsafe" by OSHA: I worked at an AM radio station where if you left a long length of wire hanging around, you'd get a "bite" if you touched an end. We didn't have to have a device to put "music on hold" on the telephone system because the station's RF got into it anyway - we couldn't stop it if we tried (and we did try).

Me too, including tower base readings every few hours in the old days. Also spent a fair amount of time on mountaintops servicing mobile and two-way gear as well as a full-gallon ham station.


One interesting thing about E-cars and hybrids is that even though they use a large amount of electricity, they will not neccessarily emit a large amount of EMF. First, the battery is arranged to give high voltage low(er) current vs. lower voltage and high current. Magnetic fields produced by electricity are proportional to current - not voltage. Since we're talking about a lot of power, all electrical returns are independent of chassis ground (+ is one wire and - another). This means that no current should flow through the chassis AND since the battery wiring is done in pairs (triads for the motor and controller), the electric and magnetic fields will cancel each other out (for the most part).

Amen to that. Kff, turn on your meter in your conventional car and let us know what it reads when you crank the starter.

OK, I accept certain things ... (1) I have no idea if this has any science behind it; (2) it does not matter to me one way or the other as I do not know what to believe (3) when you look for an EMF Field Tester it is filed under "Paranormal Equipment" [evidently the Tahoe and Cobalt are haunted] and (4) I am not a scientist, anything I say has absolutely zero basis in science and does not endorse any view of EMF fields.

That being said I got use of a Lutron Model EMF-822A EMF Field Tester [made in Taiwan so you know it is good].

Here is what I found:

1. My 2009 Impala (engine running)
a. Driver's Floor Mat reading 0.5 Gauss
b. Driver's Seat 0.3 Gauss
c. Passenger Floor Mat 0.7 Gauss
d. Passenger Seat 0.3 Gauss

...(stuff deleted by erewhon)...

Mike

Mike - I think you meant to say milli-gauss instead of gauss. The Lutron Model EMF-822A measures in the range 0.1-199.9 milli-gauss.

Anyhow, I appreciate your testing. I just got a Magnii Technologies MT-263 and will try some similar measurements, if I can find a candidate Volt! (The MT-263 measures all 3 axes at once, unlike the 1 axis Lutron device.)

It is very hard to prove that the EMF is harmful to humans because you can not preform any scientific controlled studies on humans. That is the same reason that it took so long to prove asbestos was harmful to humans. My father worked for NIH in both the asbestos and EMF studies. It took him decades to convince anyone that asbestos was dangerous. He gave up trying to convince anyone EMF was dangerous. But there are twenty years of NIH studies that they are harmful to chicken eggs between 15 and 100 HZ (There was no harm in higher frequencies. It is a very narrow frequency you need to test):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19243412

I have tested my Old car (Mercedes Benz C300) and my new car (Chevy Volt) and my Apple Iphone in the 15 to 100Hz range:

Apple Iphone <.1
Mercedes Benz C300 between 2 and 20 (Passenger front seat is very high EMF).
Chevy Volt <.2 everywhere except near the wheels in the lower front drivers seat there I got a 10 sometimes in CS mode.

I wonder if this isn't basic human nature of over reacting to very small perceived new threats and under reacting to large old ones. The EMF concern seems to have peaked years ago when cell phones were said to be linked to brain cancers and no one wanted to buy a house located near power lines out of fears the EMF would negatively impact their health. After a whole lot of research there isn't any evidence that EMF affects health. (Reminds me of the gazillions of studies trying to prove that coffee is harmful, only to discover no effects or positive effects, which isn't to say that EMF other than sunlight is positive).

On the other hand there is substantial evidence that the pollution from vehicles does negatively impact health. I think Concerned Scientists concluded that more people die from sucking fumes on the highway than die in traffic accidents, and there was a study last year which concluded that, for children, living withing 800 yards of a freeway had a negative impact on their health (at least that's how I remember it).

Seems like it would be best to worry about and possibly deal with the bigger health risks first. IOW if you're obese then from a health perspective you have more to worry about than if the carrots are organic. JMO.

Thank you, Mike for those interesting readings. GM has always kept EM emission to a minimum. The Volt was designed to shield every effect that the high voltage AC system could generate. I know because I buy and owe all the factory service manuals of my GM vehicles (I am expecting to buy the Volt manuals in April at Helm.Inc), and there are chapters that mention the importance of keeping every EM shield that the vehicle has. This may add weight but GM has excellent engineering and knows waht is has to do for each vehicle.

If your meter can take low frequency EM readings, do so at 60 Hz and 120 HZ. You will find places in your home that emits much more radiation than the Volt. Yet no one mentions or even cares about the energy being radiated in every home.

Raymond