As the initial stage of GM's "Project Driveway", two fuel cell Equinox's were delivered to a couple of volunteers:

Link (http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage8838.html)

GM is pushing forward on all fronts, and other automakers are scrambling to catch up. Honda will have their fuel cell vehicles on the roads soon. Nissan, Jaguar / Land Rover and now Chrysler have announced plans to develop REEV's.

Tsk, tsk, Toyota is only looking to make insignificant changes to their Prius. The powers that be at Toyota need to launch their current CEO and find one that will actually develop an REEV that can travel highway speeds (65 - 80 mph) in purely EV mode.

I don't know what Toyota is up to, but I would not under estimate their goal. Well just have to wait and see what up with Toyota's sleeves. I do hope GM recover from their loss and thrives, but I would not want to see Toyota end up trouble with money like GM.

I don't know what Toyota is up to, but I would not under estimate their goal. Well just have to wait and see what up with Toyota's sleeves. I do hope GM recover from their loss and thrives, but I would not want to see Toyota end up trouble with money like GM.

Toyota is now involved in cost cutting measures. It's easy to manage a company when growth is good, etc., but now the visionless Watanabe is going to be exposed as imcompetent in the economic downturn caused by high fuel prices and the inflation that causes:

Link (http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/20080526TDY07301.htm)

I should start a clock based on GM's announcement of the Chevy Volt, to time how long it takes Watanabe to pursue an REEV.

The last link you posted sure made me think a little more. I think he needed to be retire or have some one take it place and keep an eye on the company. He may also see problem of the cost to built the car. He is aware of is the environment and energy issue. He have said "Toyota has been regarded as strong in environmental technologies due to its hybrid vehicles. But hybrid vehicles are increasingly seen as commonplace. So we have to develop more advanced products and introduce them to consumers." From what it had said. It better not under estimate their view.

It a good idea about the "clock base on GM announcement of the Chevy volt" It may help motivate GM's competitor.

The last link you posted sure made me think a little more. I think he needed to be retire or have some one take it place and keep an eye on the company. He may also see problem of the cost to built the car. He is aware of is the environment and energy issue. He have said "Toyota has been regarded as strong in environmental technologies due to its hybrid vehicles. But hybrid vehicles are increasingly seen as commonplace. So we have to develop more advanced products and introduce them to consumers." From what it had said. It better not under estimate their view.

It a good idea about the "clock base on GM announcement of the Chevy volt" It may help motivate GM's competitor.

Yes, it is clear now that CEO Watanabe of Toyota was the inheretor of a growing company, not the visionary leader. Those with stock in Toyota had better be worried.

I will use this article as the clock start date for Toyota's lack of vision regarding REEV's:

Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16503845/)

It has been 487 days since GM announced the Chevy Volt for the Detroit Auto show - when is Toyota going to announce its REEV, EV or fuel cell vehicle?

As the initial stage of GM's "Project Driveway", two fuel cell Equinox's were delivered to a couple of volunteers...I wonder where the volunteers will get the hydrogen to fill the vehicles?

I wonder where the volunteers will get the hydrogen to fill the vehicles?

GM has partnered with Shell to ensure there are hydrogen stations in the test areas for the drivers to use.

There is also a hydrogen fueling station here in Oakland, CA that was put in by Chevron and powers some experimental city buses here. I've seen the pump station and it's quite nice and easy to use. I don't know if the industry has developed standard couplings yet though, so I'm not sure if the Equinoxes can plug in or not. Also they are not set up over at the bus yard to collect money, so I guess it would have to be some sort of credit system. They should give one to me and I'll find out!:D

Yes, it is clear now that CEO Watanabe of Toyota was the inheretor of a growing company, not the visionary leader.

You may be right. I don't know the man. He made be hiding his visonary leader. I would still not under estimate their view.

Shell in putting in a hydrogen refueling station here in Santa Monica, CA at Federal Ave. and Santa Monica Blvd. It has the hydrogen generator on it's roof. It looks like it's using steam reforming to separate the hydrogen from the gasoline they have on site. When it opens I plan on asking them how it works. What ever the method, it's likely to expel plenty of CO2 in the process. I wonder if that neighborhood knows that their atmosphere is about to change for the worst?
We need to remember that you have to make hydrogen and that uses a lot of electricity and or hydrocarbon. It takes 4 time the electricity to go each mile with a hydrogen fuel cell car than a battery electric car.
Replacing gasoline with hydrogen is just a bad magic trick. A distraction from battery electric power.
GM is just playing nicely with Shell so Shell can think that they will still have something to sell us after we stop using gas.
They all know that we the public just might figure out that we can make our own electricity from the sun to run our cars. And then what would they do?
You can't hide from technology.
Or the truth.

Shell in putting in a hydrogen refueling station here in Santa Monica, CA at Federal Ave. and Santa Monica Blvd. It has the hydrogen generator on it's roof. It looks like it's using steam reforming to separate the hydrogen from the gasoline they have on site. When it opens I plan on asking them how it works. What ever the method, it's likely to expel plenty of CO2 in the process. I wonder if that neighborhood knows that their atmosphere is about to change for the worst?
We need to remember that you have to make hydrogen and that uses a lot of electricity and or hydrocarbon. It takes 4 time the electricity to go each mile with a hydrogen fuel cell car than a battery electric car.
Replacing gasoline with hydrogen is just a bad magic trick. A distraction from battery electric power.
GM is just playing nicely with Shell so Shell can think that they will still have something to sell us after we stop using gas.
They all know that we the public just might figure out that we can make our own electricity from the sun to run our cars. And then what would they do?
You can't hide from technology.
Or the truth.

Thank you Jeff. I try telling the same message but the hydrogen dream will not die. Solar panels on our roofs feeding BEVs is just to simple for some people. I'm sure they will see the light when a) gasoline gets to $10 a gallon and b) when there are still no affordable hydrogen cars on the market. One way or another the BEV and it's helper hybrids are coming to town.

We need to remember that you have to make hydrogen and that uses a lot of electricity and or hydrocarbon.
It takes 4 time the electricity to go each mile with a hydrogen fuel cell car than a battery electric car.
Replacing gasoline with hydrogen is just a bad magic trick. A distraction from battery electric power.
GM is just playing nicely with Shell so Shell can think that they will still have something to sell us after we stop using gas.
They all know that we the public just might figure out that we can make our own electricity from the sun to run our cars. And then what would they do?
You can't hide from technology. Or the truth.
JeffU hit the nail right on the head, the whole 'Fool Cell' thing is an effort by the oil & car comapnies to maintain the status quo.

Fuel cell tech and air motors are the only rapid recharge approaches for zero emission range extenders in existance. If low emissions range extenders are allowed, then their are plenty of options that use normal gasoline. When rapid recharge batteries become available, and are cheap, then you will have a point. Until then, rapid refill RE's that use petroleum, alcohols, hydrogen or compressed air will be necessary.

You are incorrect about hydrogen generation requiring 4X the electricity. Nanoptek has a solar hydrogen generator that uses sunlight to directly catalyze water to extract the hydrogen:

Link (http://www.nanoptek.com/)

You still won't let the air car range extender concept go, eh? So, can you please tell us all what the weight of the car you imagine is and what extended range you expect to get. Please. Just those two pieces of info. If you do that I will gladly, using all the calculations done in the other thread, tell you how big your trailer needs to be to hold all of the compressed air tanks.

Can we also keep the discussion to technology that is actually in production? For every super this you bring up I can come up with a super that. You have the super hydrogen generator? Well I got the 10X nanowire super battery. Until these products have working prototypes running in actual vehicles it's all vapor. That last 10 percent of development is where few ideas make it through. They usually die from cost, volume production, competition, etc. issues.

Face the facts. Hydrogen cars are too expensive. More than the EVs ten years ago. Sure they got the EVs out there but they were far more expensive than what customers paid for them (leased cost). Same with Honda's masterpiece. Sure they will get out those 100 or so beauties but they are rumored to cost around $200,000 a piece. Additionally, you cannot overcome the inherent losses that will occur when generating hydrogen. You can minimize them but never eliminate them. BEVs will always be more efficient and less expensive. Always. If I'm wrong I’ll do the boogie on YouTube.

Texas,

As usual, you are hung up on efficiency numbers, when the critical factor is ZERO emissions. As sure as I am sitting here today, some liberal controlled local or state government is going to mandate a ZERO emissions vehicle, without allowing a REEV / series hybrid alternative. Right now, the easiest, low-tech AND affordable approach for this is an Air Car or EV with Air Motor range extender.

Go to any tire shop, and you will find pneumatic equipment - it is ubiquitous, so people are familiar and comfortable with it. 5 kpsi and 10 kpsi systems are being developed and tested, which will always be cheaper to buy and operate than the equivalent battery approach.
The range and performance will always be lower than the EV's being produced, but for those who just can't pay $35K+ for a 5 passenger EV sedan, the Air Car is viable.

[QUOTE=Jason M. Hendler;4498]
You are incorrect about hydrogen generation requiring 4X the electricity. Nanoptek has a solar hydrogen generator that uses sunlight to directly catalyze water to extract the hydrogen:

Yeh, but why bother making hydrogen just to make a very inefficient, and expensive HFC type of battery work in electric car when you can just charge a simpler and cheaper battery to make the car go.
Besides, Shell isn't going to use the Nanoptek system. Your NOT going to see a solar array on top of a Shell Gas Station. They are going to use gasoline to make hydrogen, believe me. And also, I need water to drink, not to make my car go.
BEVs rule!
Sorry.

Texas,

As usual, you are hung up on efficiency numbers, when the critical factor is ZERO emissions. As sure as I am sitting here today, some liberal controlled local or state government is going to mandate a ZERO emissions vehicle, without allowing a REEV / series hybrid alternative. Right now, the easiest, low-tech AND affordable approach for this is an Air Car or EV with Air Motor range extender.



When it comes to emission standards and reducing output Subura has a line of Partial Zero Emissions Vehicles (PZEV) available now. These have 90% cleaner emissions than average new vehicles. This solution isn't a zero emissions solution but it's getting pretty close without revamping the entire fuel industry. They are using current technology and producing a product that can be used anywhere and purchased at a reasonable price.

Besides, Shell isn't going to use the Nanoptek system. Your NOT going to see a solar array on top of a Shell Gas Station. They are going to use gasoline to make hydrogen, believe me.

Below is a link to a recently opened solar hydrogen generating fuel station:

Link (http://got2begreen.com/solar-powered-hydrogen-fuel-station-still-opens/)

Hydrogen stations will wisely use non-petroleum sources of hydrogen, as they understand using foreign petroleum defeats the purpose.

Hydrogen stations will wisely use non-petroleum sources of hydrogen, as they understand using foreign petroleum defeats the purpose.

Nice spin, but the HFC economy doesn't work. It's a big was of electricity no matter how you make it. Also, our tax dollars are being wasted paying to subsidize a technology that is a hugh distraction from the tried and true BEV technology that we can have now. My neighbor is on his 6th year of original NiMH batts in his Toyota RAV4 EV. He has over 140,000 miles on it and only spends money on tires. He charges it with his 5 kilowatt solar array that powers his house. He hasn't bought gas or electricity for 3 years. He now installs solar arrays for homes and business and is making a killing.

Nice spin, but the HFC economy doesn't work. It's a big was of electricity no matter how you make it. Also, our tax dollars are being wasted paying to subsidize a technology that is a hugh distraction from the tried and true BEV technology that we can have now. My neighbor is on his 6th year of original NiMH batts in his Toyota RAV4 EV. He has over 140,000 miles on it and only spends money on tires. He charges it with his 5 kilowatt solar array that powers his house. He hasn't bought gas or electricity for 3 years. He now installs solar arrays for homes and business and is making a killing.

It's not about pure efficiency / economics, its about rapid refill - no one wants to get stuck with a vehicle while it's charging for 4+ hours.

It's not about pure efficiency / economics, its about rapid refill - no one wants to get stuck with a vehicle while it's charging for 4+ hours.
Yeh, charging time is the trade off to driving on sunshine.
FYI, In 3 years I never got stuck with my EV1. But I did have to plan and make it work. It was fun. Driving pure electric has a freedom component to it. It feels good. I never ran out of juice but I have run out of gas. In the 70s I waited a long time in gas lines to fill up during the gas crisis. Remember the odd even days?
Hope we don't have that again soon. If we do, you won't want to wait for your HFC car.

It's not about pure efficiency / economics, its about rapid refill - no one wants to get stuck with a vehicle while it's charging for 4+ hours.


There are still a few different trains of thought here. Since there is no rapid refill solution today (no, Jason. The 5 hydrogen test refill stations do not constitute a working infrastructure) we have to choose which way to go. Should we:

A) Invest billions on hydrogen infrastructure to support the hydrogen cars that may or may not be affordable in the next 10 years or:

B) Invest billions on BEV quick-charge infrastructure including putting electrical outlets in parking lots across the country.

For the short-term I say go with the hybrid approach because any infrastructure decision we make will take a decade at least to fully implement. So, we can use the great new hybrids with plug-in and flex-fuel capability to get most of the way there.

So, take your pick. Do you think an affordable hydrogen car and it's infrastructure will beat out the quick-charge capable BEV to the market and be ahead on cost? I'm going with the BEV. Jason and others are going with the hydrogen approach. In 5 years we will see who was right. I still think hydrogen technology will be very useful (unless algae and cellulotic biofuels are perfected) in many niche markets. However, not in the personal car market. The BEV is simple and advancing at an incredible rate and even average Joes are able to make them in their garages (search YouTube). I can tell you one thing... I will not buy a hydrogen car. I will be driving my BEV charged very simply from my home solar panels. Sorry Mr. Utility man and Mr. Hydrogen generator repair man. I like things simple and untaxable. Sue me.

There are still a few different trains of thought here. Since there is no rapid refill solution today (no, Jason. The 5 hydrogen test refill stations do not constitute a working infrastructure) we have to choose which way to go. Should we:

A) Invest billions on hydrogen infrastructure to support the hydrogen cars that may or may not be affordable in the next 10 years or:

B) Invest billions on BEV quick-charge infrastructure including putting electrical outlets in parking lots across the country.

For the short-term I say go with the hybrid approach because any infrastructure decision we make will take a decade at least to fully implement. So, we can use the great new hybrids with plug-in and flex-fuel capability to get most of the way there.

So, take your pick. Do you think an affordable hydrogen car and it's infrastructure will beat out the quick-charge capable BEV to the market and be ahead on cost? I'm going with the BEV. Jason and others are going with the hydrogen approach. In 5 years we will see who was right. I still think hydrogen technology will be very useful (unless algae and cellulotic biofuels are perfected) in many niche markets. However, not in the personal car market. The BEV is simple and advancing at an incredible rate and even average Joes are able to make them in their garages (search YouTube). I can tell you one thing... I will not buy a hydrogen car. I will be driving my BEV charged very simply from my home solar panels. Sorry Mr. Utility man and Mr. Hydrogen generator repair man. I like things simple and untaxable. Sue me.

Nothing is untaxable. If there is not fuel to tax, governments will find a way to recover that lost tax revenue to maintain roads. Roads won't start repairing themselves when we switch to EV's.

Interesting testimony in Popular Mechanics as to what it took for a driver to "win" the opportunity to drive the Fuel Cell Equinox in the GM trials:

Link (http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4266144.html)

I suspect a similar process will happen for those who wish to testdrive the Chevy Volt for GM.

Nothing is untaxable. If there is not fuel to tax, governments will find a way to recover that lost tax revenue to maintain roads. Roads won't start repairing themselves when we switch to EV's.

Death and taxes. I know. However, smart people pay much less taxes than people that don't know the tax laws. Some will pay for their hydrogen tax and their road use tax and some will only pay for their road tax because they have solar panels on their roofs. Will the government then try to tax me because of the sun that falls on my property? It's possible but will be much harder to do than taxing at the pump. Agree? I can also then choose to live outside the states if they tax my sun. I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes. I do mind having to pay for liquid fuel where the price can change at the drop of a hat? Do you notice how the wealth of the nation's poor is being transferred to the wealthy? Who do you think is paying the profits to those speculators and oil nations? I think one could easily argue that it's not just the taxes. Did you also notice that as the price of a gallon of gas goes up the collected taxes goes up for each gallon as well? We are using the equivalent amount of gas as we did (or nearly) a year ago but look at how much taxes the government is getting. Some people are very happy. Not me.

With my solar panels and soon to be plug-in hybrid I can know the cost of my energy for the next 25 years or so. To me this reduction of risk in dealing with spiking gas or other fuel prices is worth it. I hope this makes sense. Please explain your point of view as to why it’s better to use a taxable fuels like gas or hydrogen where the price of the fuel is set on the commodity markets.

Oh, it just occurred to me where hydrogen is going to be a necessity:

1) military - you can't pause a military engagement while all your vehicles recharge for 4 - 8 hours

2) national guard, coast guard, police, fire department, etc. - emergency vehicles can't sit around charging for 4 - 8 hours in an emergency

3) aircraft - specific energy in hydrogen makes it the best choice for future air travel

Death and taxes. I know. However, smart people pay much less taxes than people that don't know the tax laws. Some will pay for their hydrogen tax and their road use tax and some will only pay for their road tax because they have solar panels on their roofs. Will the government then try to tax me because of the sun that falls on my property? It's possible but will be much harder to do than taxing at the pump. Agree? I can also then choose to live outside the states if they tax my sun. I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes. I do mind having to pay for liquid fuel where the price can change at the drop of a hat? Do you notice how the wealth of the nation's poor is being transferred to the wealthy? Who do you think is paying the profits to those speculators and oil nations? I think one could easily argue that it's not just the taxes. Did you also notice that as the price of a gallon of gas goes up the collected taxes goes up for each gallon as well? We are using the equivalent amount of gas as we did (or nearly) a year ago but look at how much taxes the government is getting. Some people are very happy. Not me.

With my solar panels and soon to be plug-in hybrid I can know the cost of my energy for the next 25 years or so. To me this reduction of risk in dealing with spiking gas or other fuel prices is worth it. I hope this makes sense. Please explain your point of view as to why it’s better to use a taxable fuels like gas or hydrogen where the price of the fuel is set on the commodity markets.

I thought most gasoline taxes were on a per-gallon basis. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Oh, it just occurred to me where hydrogen is going to be a necessity:

1) military - you can't pause a military engagement while all your vehicles recharge for 4 - 8 hours

2) national guard, coast guard, police, fire department, etc. - emergency vehicles can't sit around charging for 4 - 8 hours in an emergency

3) aircraft - specific energy in hydrogen makes it the best choice for future air travel

Time will tell, but I'd bet on gas-to-liquids, coal-to-liquids, and biofuels for those applications. Hydrogen is a terrible fuel for transportation. In my opinion, the only non-political reason it's under serious consideration is that the current crop of fuel cells can't run on hydrocarbon fuels due to the intolerance of the electrodes to CO.

I thought most gasoline taxes were on a per-gallon basis. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Yes, for the initial sale you are correct. Here's the breakdown:


Federal, State, and local government taxes are the next largest part of the retail price of gasoline. In 2007, taxes (not including county and local taxes) accounted for about 15% of the cost of a gallon of regular gasoline. Federal excise taxes were 18.4 cents per gallon and State excise taxes averaged 21.5 cents per gallon.2 Eleven States levy additional State sales and other taxes, some of which are applied to the Federal and State excise taxes. Additional county and city taxes can have a significant impact on the price of gasoline in some locations. From 2000 to 2007, taxes averaged about 24% of the retail gasoline price.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/gasolinepricesprimer/

I was thinking down the path a way. The people making all that obscene profit on the oil also get taxed. Even though Congress is screaming about the whole oil profit thing I believe it's all a show. The US government is getting great tax revenue from the oil companies. Additionally, you can even say that a percentage of the obscene margins the oil companies are getting is used for more energy exploration so that the people are actually funding that. Government is not unhappy about that. Just Mary the office worker down the street who would like to save a little money for medical work or perhaps for retirement is not happy. She must get to work, no matter what the cost. The politicians are still getting their salary which is still very high and their fuel bill is still but a small percentage.

If people think everyone in the government is upset about the high price of oil, think again. Some people are making millions because others are losing millions.