http://ev.nissan.co.jp/FAQ/LEAF/#EV


日産リーフのバッテリー寿命の保証は何年ですか？
使用状況によって差はありますが、日産リーフに搭載されるリチウムイオンバッテリーは、5～10年経過時で 70～80％程度の残存容量を見込んでおります。保証期間については、通常の主要部品と同様の自動車部品と して、適切な期間を検討中です。


What is the battery life warranty of Nissan Leaf?

Depending on the usage, we expect the Li-ion battery of Nissan Leaf to have 70~80% of capacity remaining after 5~10 years of use. Concerning warranty, we plan on providing a warranty coverage suitable for a major component of an automobile.

Translation : Expect a warranty comparable to standard gasoline-engine Nissans; 5 year/60,000 miles.

http://ev.nissan.co.jp/FAQ/LEAF/#EV





Translation : Expect a warranty comparable to standard gasoline-engine Nissans; 5 year/60,000 miles.

I thought there was a CAFE regulation that said they had to last 10 years??????

I think there's a CA regulation that the emissions control system must work for 10 years. If the battery is required to meet the emissions requirements, then the battery is part of that system. At least that is the way I heard it. I have no documentation to back that up.

CARB (California Air Resources Board) is the one that has that regulation, it covers about half the cars sold in the US because 11 states follow CARB regulations. Since the LEAF has no emissions (unlike a Volt), it should not be covered by it.

CARB (California Air Resources Board) is the one that has that regulation, it covers about half the cars sold in the US because 11 states follow CARB regulations. Since the LEAF has no emissions (unlike a Volt), it should not be covered by it.

So the Volt has to have a 10year battery life but not the leaf.......interesting!!

So the Volt has to have a 10year battery life but not the leaf.......interesting!!
This is why Nissan won't do Hybrid; they cannot compete with NiMH battery and NEC's cells can't be warranted for 10 years.

This is why Nissan won't do Hybrid; they cannot compete with NiMH battery and NEC's cells can't be warranted for 10 years.

It will be interesting to see what sort of extended/ replacement warranty Nissan offers.

NEC cells could be warranted for 10 years, but you would have to double up on them like GM did.. they both use lithium manganese spinel. If anything the NEC cells are probably more rugged than the LG cells.. thicker, stronger films are used.

The range extender on the Volt is expensive.. it cost GM $4000 to buy it, $2000 for the ice and all the associated items, $1500 for the generator and $500 for the inverter.. it also added about 500lbs to the weight, more if you count the fluids.. plus the cost of the extra mandated warranty in the 11 CARB states. In the non-CARB stares the warranty MAY be 8 years /100k miles.. a GM executive stated a while back.

A separate range extender trailer would not fall under the CARB mandate, but I bet they would change the rules quickly.

NEC cells could be warranted for 10 years
It can't. This is the cheapest automotive battery from Japan, where the design emphasis was low cost and not durability.


they both use lithium manganese spinel.
NEC's battery uses liquid electrolyte.
LG's battery uses solid electrolyte.


In the non-CARB stares the warranty MAY be 8 years /100k miles.. a GM executive stated a while back.
Same as Prius's. Nothing unusual.

Of course nobody comments on the 800 lb gorilla in the room.

Some unwashed petty government bureaucrat getting fat 100% above-market public union slaries, working 33.5 hours a week, and producing the equivalent of 20 hours a week, has decided in his infinite (or rather inverse infinite) wisdom that in order to encourage cleaner air vehicles, they would make it almost impossible to build EREVs because of a stupid 10 year warranty vestige from the ICE domain. Not only such 10 year battery technology is marginally available, and not only consumers may not require such an extra cost and be saddled with hauling a battery twice the size and weight, but it will also delay the introduction of much cleaner EREVs and BEVs.

Even if the Volt pack was good for 5 years and functioned at a lowly 40% after 5 years, the emissions from a VOLT in its lifetime would be far less than even the lowest MPG ICE automobile.

This is how bureaucrcy kills productivity, technology, competition, and results in economic and environmental backwardness.

<sarcasm>
More power to government, the eco-socialists, and their self-serving public unions. </sarcasm>

NEC's battery uses liquid electrolyte.
LG's battery uses solid electrolyte.

.

Is this really true. I swear I saw a picture of the LG cell for the volt and it was a pouch.

Which gets me to a different subject. What does the term LiPo battery mean. This is what my RC batteries are called but I don't think it refers to the chemistry ie Mn, Fe, Co but to the elctrolyte. (solid vs Liquid???)

I googled it but it was not clear.

Personally,

I'd like the battery warranty to remain in effect until I get the vehicle paid for. I argue that a 72 month/100K mile warranty (whichever comes first) would be sufficient for the vast majority of customers.

I'll be happy if I don't have to worry about replacing the battery until after the car is paid for.

Yeah something about getting hit with a huge battery replacement bill when you're already paying $500/month payments for the next year or two doesn't sound like it's up too many people's alley.

The interesting thing is that even the lowly laptop cells used in the Roadster are good for 5 years (per Tesla, but I think the warranty is 3 years).. the magic of a low DoD large pack.

All LIPOs use a plastic pouch, all cells in a plastic pouch are LIPOs.. but not all manufacturers follow this nomenclature. LIPOs use a solid electrolyte, a porous plastic with a conducting gel or paste with lithium salts.. LI-ION use a can, a plastic porous separator with a liquid electrolyte thats added before the can is sealed.. LI-ION can ooze liquid when overheated, LIPOs swell up and vent gases.. LIPOs need to be physically restrained when they swell up (and they always do that), in our hobby we use heavy duty heat shrink, in cars they use metal enclosures.. in LI-IONS the can itself does the job.

No idea what "laminated" means..

All LiFePO4 cells have tiny little balls on the cathode, nanospheres.. even the lowly cheap chinese brands.

Hyper, you have any links on the LG cells?.. last I read they were using a special separator film, and very proud of it.

If you open up a LI-ION no liquid pours out..

The interesting thing is that even the lowly laptop cells used in the Roadster are good for 5 years (per Tesla, but I think the warranty is 3 years).. the magic of a low DoD large pack.

All LIPOs use a plastic pouch, all cells in a plastic pouch are LIPOs.. but not all manufacturers follow this nomenclature. LIPOs use a solid electrolyte, a porous plastic with a conducting gel or paste with lithium salts.. LI-ION use a can, a plastic porous separator with a liquid electrolyte thats added before the can is sealed.. LI-ION can ooze liquid when overheated, LIPOs swell up and vent gases.. LIPOs need to be physically restrained when they swell up (and they always do that), in our hobby we use heavy duty heat shrink, in cars they use metal enclosures.. in LI-IONS the can itself does the job.

No idea what "laminated" means..

All LiFePO4 cells have tiny little balls on the cathode, nanospheres.. even the lowly cheap chinese brands.

Hyper, you have any links on the LG cells?.. last I read they were using a special separator film, and very proud of it.

If you open up a LI-ION no liquid pours out..

So LoPo is used in RC airplanes because they are lower weight (plastic wrap instead of a can)??

Also, are Volt cells in a pouch?? Sure looks that way to me.

I use both kind in RC planes.. I think the pouch types are more popular because of size.. also their use in cell phone has made them very cheap. Pouch cells are definitely lighter. I call everything lipos.

Volt and LEAF are using pouch cells

“ I'd like the battery warranty to remain in effect until I get the vehcile paid for. I argue that a 72 month/100K mile warranty (whichever comes first) would be sufficient for the vast majority of customers… “ – Rooster

I guess battery pack is an expendable part of the vehicle. Its high cost is partly offset by the saving of fuel... At 30mpg a compact ICE car consumes 3333 galons to travel 100K miles, costing about $7000. Meanwhile, an EV consumes about $4000 worth of electricity at 5m/kWh and at $0.2/kWh, which can be lower if charged during off-peak hours.

Nissan is telling automotive journalists that cost of their battery pack should come down to $220/kWh by 2015, which means the first users of the Leaf will be paying as low as $5280 (less trade in?) for replacement. Taking the saving in fuel cost into the calculation, the actual replacement cost is not too much to bear.

BTW, Nissan started demo sessions recently for journalists. So far, comments from them are favourable especially of its refinement in braking feel and stable cornering character.

"I guess battery pack is an expendable part of the vehicle. Its high cost is partly offset by the saving of fuel... At 30mpg a compact ICE car consumes 3333 galons to travel 100K miles, costing about $7000. Meanwhile, an EV consumes about $4000 worth of electricity at 5m/kWh and at $0.2/kWh, which can be lower if charged during off-peak hours."

150k miles is considered the economic end of life of a car.

20 cents per kwh is a very high number, national average is 11 cents.. not sure if the LEAF will get 5 miles per kwh in average city driving.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

The LEAF and Volt will probably be classified as midsized cars like the Prius, due to the hatchback. The Cruze sedan is right at the dividing line between compact and midsized.. probably so they can advertise "largest volume in its class"

Probably should be compared to gas cars that get a combined EPA mileage of 26mpg.

Dont forget cost of regular scheduled maintenance..

Tire expenses should be equal for gas and electric vehicles.. but BEVs should have a big advantage on brake jobs. How often do regular cars need brake jobs and how much are they?.. and then you have oil changes, coolant system flushes, a couple AT flush, and perhaps a timing belt replacement. Lets hope the AT does not break because it will cost ya.

HyperMiler, take a look at the following site:

http://allabout.co.jp/auto/japanesecar/closeup/CU20100622A/index2.htm

According to the reporter, Mr. Mitsuhiro Kunisawa, the battery pack is good for more than 10 years/125,000 miles (@20% capacity deterioration). His information is usually reliable.

HyperMiler, take a look at the following site:

http://allabout.co.jp/auto/japanesecar/closeup/CU20100622A/index2.htm

According to the reporter, Mr. Mitsuhiro Kunisawa, the battery pack is good for more than 10 years/125,000 miles (@20% capacity deterioration). His information is usually reliable.

Nissan has been saying that for quite some time. 20% deterioration is without fast charging, 30% with frequent fast charging.

But that does nothing to speak of the warranty... If they believe the pack will last that long, they should back it up.

The warranty will certainly factor into my decision on whether to buy or lease my Leaf.

3 years or 36k miles, with extra cost extended warranties available.

According to the reporter, Mr. Mitsuhiro Kunisawa, the battery pack is good for more than 10 years/125,000 miles (@20% capacity deterioration). His information is usually reliable.
All I get from that article is that Leaf's battery cell is rated at 1000 cycles.(200 km x 1000 cycles = 200,000 km life)

LG's cell is rated for 2000 cycles at the least.