I was wonder after reading and looking at all the things the Chevy Volt will have in it. Will the Battery be enough to handle all the Demands the features will demand from A123 System Battery pack. Can it really supply enough power the car needs?

At this point looks like alot expected from a battery System.

I was wonder after reading and looking at all the things the Chevy Volt will have in it. Will the Battery be enough to handle all the Demands the features will demand from A123 System Battery pack. Can it really supply enough power the car needs?
At this point looks like alot expected from a battery System.

Granted, but that's what they are determining right now with the bench testing and soon, with the batteries installed in Mules (Chevy Malibu's). Although time will tell, things look promising so far!
With a target of June '08 for journalists to actually drive mules, the clock is ticking (thank goodness).
Be well and God Bless,
Tagamet

What is the planned capacity of the Volt's battery pack in Kwhs? Is the A123 technology (iron) what will be used, or is GM still looking at cobalt Li ion/Li polymer technology?

This is a big step into being energy independent for the US. I truly hope if we call for advice we are not connected with India or Pakistan etc. Also for once lets manufacture in our own country, I feel very uneasy about depending on other countries for anything.

What is the planned capacity of the Volt's battery pack in Kwhs? Is the A123 technology (iron) what will be used, or is GM still looking at cobalt Li ion/Li polymer technology?

I believe they are shooting for 16kWh to allow at least 40 miles All Electric Range. At least one post I saw said that GM was shooting for 40 miles AER at the END of the battery's life.
HTH,
Tagamet

lithium-ion batteries still way to costly.check out csiro austraila ultra batterys. http://www.csiro.au/solutions/ECOmmodore.html . gms holden made gto . another battery firefly energys .looks good and cheap.maybe across betwen the two would work good?

I feel very uneasy about depending on other countries for anything. Is it a concern then that 93% of rare earth magnet production comes from China. Needed to make the generator/engine.

Is it a concern then that 93% of rare earth magnet production comes from China. Needed to make the generator/engine.

There are motor designs that do not require permanent magnets. Tesla uses an asychronous motor without permanent magnets, so that should not be a concern.

# Jason

It makes sense to me now why you would use an asychronous motor. Thanks.

I was wonder after reading and looking at all the things the Chevy Volt will have in it. Will the Battery be enough to handle all the Demands the features will demand from A123 System Battery pack. Can it really supply enough power the car needs?

At this point looks like alot expected from a battery System.

As an owner of a neighborhood electric vehicle (NEV), I have to wonder how cold winter temperatures will effect the all-electric driving range of the Volt.

My NEV, a Zenn, is reduced in range by a whopping 75% when subjected to cold temperatures (down in the high 20s or lower). During those times, I'll be lucky to drive 8 miles before the battery pack is depleted. Of course the batteries, although type AGM, are lead-acid batteries - which have historically been weak during winter months.

Hopefully GM and A123 are developing a battery pack that is not vulnerable to cold temperatures. Otherwise Volt buyers may as well forget plug-in all-electric capability during the winter.

Does GM plan to offer discounted solar panel chargers as an enticement? I think that this would attract many buyers who would like the complete package.

Does GM plan to offer discounted solar panel chargers as an enticement? I think that this would attract many buyers who would like the complete package.

Not that I know of. Given the NUMEROUS comments going on on the $35K price thread, it doesn't seem to be a palitable option for Volt V 1.0, but never say never.
HTH,
Tagamet

...Hopefully GM and A123 are developing a battery pack that is not vulnerable to cold temperatures. Otherwise Volt buyers may as well forget plug-in all-electric capability during the winter.

It's been my experience that regular-old lithium batteries already outperform lead-acid batteries at cold temperatures.

As you may have guessed from reading the news, they tend to produce plenty of their own internal heat as soon as you turn them on.

Not that I know of. Given the NUMEROUS comments going on on the $35K price thread, it doesn't seem to be a palitable option for Volt V 1.0, but never say never.
HTH,
Tagamet

Where is the $35k price thread?

I was wonder after reading and looking at all the things the Chevy Volt will have in it. Will the Battery be enough to handle all the Demands the features will demand from A123 System Battery pack. Can it really supply enough power the car needs?

At this point looks like alot expected from a battery System.

From everything I've read A123 is the best system right now, although there is even newer technology that will make it obsolete in just a few years.

All of the most promising new battery technology in the news right now involves engineering at the nano-scale of the battery structure.

Ned23,
I believe GM has "a piece of the action" in the companies that are implementing the nanotech advances. I haven't heard whether or not they are "in" on the ultracapacitor advances though.

Here's a link to the A123 info:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/05/a123-systems-gets-another-patent-on-nanophosphate-electrodes/

I'm pretty sure A123 cells will work in a Volt.
Seems like the cold temp performance of A123 is far superior to lead acid, the cycle life is (reported to be) at least 4 times better, energy and power density about 3 times better, and no ill effects from storage while partially discharged. This is vastly superior to lead acid which I am using in 2 vehicles. Too bad the cost is about 10 times as much. But I expect this ratio to go down pretty soon, in a few years or so. Even though Lithium Polymer is about 4 times better on energy density. it (has up til recently) suffered from low power density. And there is the nasty trick of thermal runaway looming in there maybe, unless thery fix it.
I, like many others, am testing A123 cells I bought in power tool packs. Buying them this way saves 1/2 the cost of buying the "Development Kit" from A123.

In the EAA (Electric Auto Association) Jan 2008 issue of "Current Events" pg 23, there is an article by a guy (Gary Graunke) who put about $10000 ($100 apiece for Dewalt DC9360's which have 10 cells each 3.6V at 2.3 AH) worth of these power tool cells in his Honda Insight and they are doing just fine for him. He took out all of the Honda stuff except the tranny. He put in an AC induction motor and drive from Metric Mind. Look on the eaaev website I think it is only available to members here http://www.eaaev.org/CurrentEvents/pdf/2008/index.html

Lithium is an immature technology rampant with risks and uncertainties. Even the basic chemistry is not settled, with Lithium Manganese being the latest more promising combination. So let's be honest; vehicle ready Lithium batteries are 5 years away.

HOWEVER, 10 years ago GM was in production of a car that got 130 to 150 miles on a charge. Since then those NiMH (nickel metal hydride) batteries have powered almost every hybrid made and many have well over 100,000 miles on them in all kinds of climates and driving conditions. Toyota Rav4 EV owners have yet to change out any battery packs and many have over 100,000 miles and that's while driving ONLY ON THE BATTERIES, since the Rav4 EV is not a hybrid.

The concept of a hybrid is to NOT require so much of the batteries, as the generator can keep the batteries at any SOC level it chooses and even assist the batteries when continued high current is called for. So instead of 1000 lbs of NiMH batteries to get 130 miles, the volt could use 300lbs to get it's 40 mile "all-electric" range. This is the right choice for the Volt, and when Lithium is mature, what's the big deal; start putting Lithium in and make it a 100 mile range vehicle without changing much of anything else in the car.

So it makes you wonder; WHY is GM embroiled in hatching a new battery technology when America needs this car NOW, and lots more models like it. Let's get out of the Lithium quicksand and go build this car.

Dr Mark

Could it be that the Patents for the Nickel cad batteries were purchased by Oil companies after they engineered the demise of the EV1? Although I can't substantiate that, I did hear that from another Web source. It may be that once those patents run out, GM would offer that type of battery in future vehicles(like a Cadillac Escalade or GMYukon).

To Tagamet, I did see on the Discovery channel, a new way of producing solar collection panels using SIG technology.This entails printing a combination of inexpensive chemicals on a polyethylene sheet. Instead of using pure silicon chips, which are very expensive to produce, a small manufacturer has made flexible cheap solar sheets. If GM could partner with him and production could be increased, solar windshield collectors (portable and plugin)would work.

Chevron Oil now owns the patent rights to Nimh batteries over a 10amp/hr rating.

I was wonder after reading and looking at all the things the Chevy Volt will have in it. Will the Battery be enough to handle all the Demands the features will demand from A123 System Battery pack. Can it really supply enough power the car needs?

The power of the battery will be adequate for the car. I don't think this is an issue. That is what we are being led to believe anyway. Mules ran on the Nickle Metal hydrid batteries and they have lower power output than the A123 batteries.

Range of the battery might vary from predictions. Apparently it will be greater than 40 miles and even if it isn't that wouldn't deter me because my commute is only 12.5 miles one way. So actually I might prefer a smaller battery (smaller Kwh) will a 20 mile range over the 40 considering the current cost of li-ion batteries.

This would require the ICE for a 5 miles each commute which wouldn't be so bad considering the ICE needs to run to keep its fuel system from gumming up and the gas from going bad in the tank.

which wouldn't be so bad considering the ICE needs to run to keep its fuel system from gumming up and the gas from going bad in the tank.

I know we discussed the “old gasoline” issue to death in another thread but if that happened to me on a regular basis I would be so very happy. The gas going bad because of not being used?? Great! :)

I hear you Tex but I bet you wouldn't be so happy WHEN it left you stranded 5 miles from home. :D I agree that is the kind of problems to have!

I hear you Tex but I bet you wouldn't be so happy WHEN it left you stranded 5 miles from home. :D I agree that is the kind of problems to have!

lol. You are quite right! Perhaps I'll carry a gallon of emergency gas on a chain around my neck to remind me that I'm still burning gas. Bling bling. ;)

I squirt a little StaBil in my sailboat's outboard motor gas tank each fall. It starts first pull the next spring. Never have had a gumming or water problem.

A little asking around has revealed that Chevron paid about $160 Million to acquire all NiMH battery patent rights in 2000 to 2002 and now licenses the right to build batteries through Cobasys, BUT they won't license anything larger than an 8 Amp-Hour cell. This is from the Cobasys web page announcing GM's joint venture on Li-ion batteries last year:

" Cobasys is a joint venture between Chevron Technology Ventures LLC, a subsidiary of Chevron Corporation (NYSE: CVX) and Energy Conversion Devices, Inc. (NASDAQ: ENER).

For more information about Cobasys, contact Ray Wagner at 248-620-5700 or visit our website at http://www.cobasys.com. "

Full article at
http://www.cobasys.com/news/20070104.shtml

So, Chevron is a partner in the Volt project !!! NOW what's your best guess for the Volt introduction date?

Back to Lithium-ion. LiFePO4 (lithium-iron phosphate) is the best in cold and hot temperatures, but especially in hot temps they degrade about 10-20% capacity per year. I heard at the Volt Forum meeting at the NYC auto show that the climate control system for the Li-ion batteries may be very elaborate, to the extent that your motor may start your unattended car to make heat to keep them from getting too cold, or to run the AC to keep them cool (probably right after stopping the vehicle, then only for a short time). The iron in LiFePO4 has to all be in the Fe2 valence state, and any Fe0 (zero) makes an imperfection that propagates with time and temperature. So any LiFePO4 cells will have dozens of these spots on them and just deteriorate with time.

But technical limitations of the batteries don't bother me so much, especially with an on-board generator. The real danger is that with $500 Billion in windfall profits this year, Big Oil will just buy up the winning Lithium technology the same way they bought NiMH. Then you are back to lead-acid, so why not just start with sealed lead acid, AGM, spiral-wound batteries and make a 15 mile range PHEV? You can still get it to 70 MPG pretty easily, and you can save $2 by charging it. It's the only sure thing.

Dr Mark

Dr. Mark, That is truly depressing. I'm also worried about this but feel the situation is different this time. The Energy companies are in trouble because they know that cheap oil production is heading down. Also, America and the rest of the world has experienced the death of the electric car before and I don't think it will stand for it again. We could all just revolt and ride a bike to work for a month. I think that would get the government's attention. ;) How about that slogan, "No plug. No sale". If people get it in their heads that they would rather inhale cigars than to use old, dirty automotive technology then there is nothing the petroleum companies can do, accept go oversees. See American tobacco.

Dr. Mark, That is truly depressing. I'm also worried about this but feel the situation is different this time. The Energy companies are in trouble because they know that cheap oil production is heading down. Also, America and the rest of the world has experienced the death of the electric car before and I don't think it will stand for it again. We could all just revolt and ride a bike to work for a month. I think that would get the government's attention. ;) How about that slogan, "No plug. No sale". If people get it in their heads that they would rather inhale cigars than to use old, dirty automotive technology then there is nothing the petroleum companies can do, accept go oversees. See American tobacco.

Texas,
Its one of the many things that are tied up in Washington's inability to act. If we had any Energy Policy, electric vehicles would be a big part of it. Also, it is expressly illegal to use patent ownership to block availability, so if anyone challenged this and opened up a NiMH battery plant then it would just become a legal battle, and who do you think would win (back to the $500 B windfall profits). It's this political power that ties up change and guarantees the status quo to incumbant technologies.

Actually Electro Energy Inc claims to have a NiMH process that does not violate Chevrons patents, and Goldpeak (a small Hong Kong company) licensed NiMH from Ovonics before GM or Chevron owned the patents, and previous licenses must be honored by new owners of a patent. Goldpeak builds 30 AH batteries for the new Vectrix electric motorcycle. So there are loopholes, except probably not for GM, since they sold these rights to Chevron and probably had to sign a non-compete rider along with it.

I'm not against oil companies, oil is a great source of clean energy if used properly (in Series Hybrid drive systems), its just that we shouldn't be wasting 85 to 90% of it by burning it in IC engines instead of efficient turbine engines and compound cycle and co-generation plants. The biggest problem is that the incentives aren't there (maybe high crude prices will change that) and it is more profitable for Big Oil to buy crude from OPEC than to explore and drill their own. So one thing the government could do is tax OPEC imports (in retaliation for the biggest price fixing conspiracy in history) as a price support measure for domestically produced oil and guarantee that the price will never go below $50/barrel again. Then lots of tar sands, oil shale and coal gasefication would become economically viable.

But I agree with energizing the public. "No Plug - No Sale" is the next bumper sticker we will be producing at www.freedomformula.org . Hope you'll visit and buy a couple thousand.

Dr Mark

Nice post Dr Mark. I just have a few comments:



Texas,
it is expressly illegal to use patent ownership to block

Thank you because that makes me feel better. However, even though it's illegal to block, companies can launch huge lawsuits that can drag on for years and years, accomplishing the very thing they set out to do. It might be very expensive for an oil company or country to do but it would be peanuts compared to how much money there is still to be made the old fashioned way - oil.



it is more profitable for Big Oil to buy crude from OPEC than to explore and drill their own. So one thing the government could do is tax OPEC imports (in retaliation for the biggest price fixing conspiracy in history) as a price support measure for domestically produced oil and guarantee that the price will never go below $50/barrel again.

Yeah, I can understand the "use their oil before we use our oil" concept but look at how that's hurting our country with massive addiction and mounting foreign debts that will be felt for many years to come. Kind of like how a new college graduate feels that has enormous student loans to repay.



Then lots of tar sands, oil shale and coal gasefication would become economically viable.

Please don't tell me you think this is a good thing! Processing of tar sands and shale is an environmental disaster waiting to happen akin to an alcoholic that feels compelled to insert the bottle of alcohol rectally because their throat is so damaged. Maybe a folk tale butt... ;)



But I agree with energizing the public. "No Plug - No Sale" is the next bumper sticker we will be producing at www.freedomformula.org . Hope you'll visit and buy a couple thousand.

Nice work! Now all we have to do is convince women to only date men that drive electric cars and we can change the world!

Nice work! Now all we have to do is convince women to only date men that drive electric cars and we can change the world!

You know, Texas, I can't say I always agree with everything you say, but I always enjoy the way you say it.

If we ever have a GM-Volt Forum convention and meet up, the beer's on me.

You know, Texas, I can't say I always agree with everything you say, but I always enjoy the way you say it.

If we ever have a GM-Volt Forum convention and meet up, the beer's on me.

Texas, I'll buy you a round too...as long as I don't have to be there for any enematic ingestion of it.

Thanks for the liquid refreshments! Oh, and deal (no barley enemas for this Texan). ;)