Link (http://earth2tech.com/2009/08/21/byd-speeds-up-us-launch-race-for-2010-electric-car-heats-up/)

Electric vehicles may have proven their capacity for speed on the road, but when it comes to bringing plug-in models to market, extended and repeated delays have been the norm. But today word comes from Warren Buffett-backed BYD Auto that it’s actually accelerating its timeline for a U.S. launch. According to the Wall Street Journal, the China-based battery giant and automaker is now finalizing plans to begin selling its all-electric e6 model in the U.S. in 2010 — about a year ahead of schedule.
http://earth2tech.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/byd-e6-interior.jpg?w=472&h=314

What about their plug-in hybrid? Did they mention that being rushed?

What about their plug-in hybrid? Did they mention that being rushed?

That would mean arm wrestling with Toyota, BYD is going all the way I'm betting, screw the ICE.

Care to bet against Uncle Warren?

I'm just not that desperate for an EV. I suppose others are though. I won't buy a Chinese car until that's all that's left. BYD's only hope for survival (assuming that the Chinese government isn't willing to back them indefinitely no matter what) is that they beat everybody to market, have a generous warranty and the car performs up to expectations.

That would mean arm wrestling with Toyota, BYD is going all the way I'm betting, screw the ICE.
Care to bet against Uncle Warren?




Uncle Warren knows less about technology than ANY member here, if you can believe that. You didn't read the posted articles about BYD?

Warren usually does not go for tech investments but was introduced to the CEO of BYD. Warren was so impressed that he invested. He invested in the person. It's a very interesting story.

So yes, I would bet against Warren when it comes to technology bets. Besides, BYD does have both BEVs and PHEVs.

I have always stated that long-term the BEV will rule but the transition period will most likely be dominated by hybrids, due to the lack of charging infrastructure. The BEV without swap-stations or quick-charge-stations is a relegated to 2nd car status.

There are a lot of homes in the US where a second-car-BEV fits very well... I would not bet against the BYD chairman.

Texas,

You are correct about a significant transition time, but it is more about BEV cost than infrastructure. Until the costs come down, people will opt for high efficiency ICE's, hybrids and cheaper 2-3 wheeled BEV's.

Texas,

You are correct about a significant transition time, but it is more about BEV cost than infrastructure. Until the costs come down, people will opt for high efficiency ICE's, hybrids and cheaper 2-3 wheeled BEV's.

Costs need to come down, eh? What about a car that has been selling for the better part of a year, with the drivetrain of a Volt and seats 5 for $16,000, and they're making a profit at that price? That would be the F3DM.

The E6 is going to be $40,000 because it must be carrying a huge amount of batteries to power a minivan 250 miles. I would have to guess at least 80 kWh since that's 300 watts/mile (the Volt with it's super low drag coefficient is down to 250 watts/mile) with only 5 kWh of reserve buffer. You know at least $20,000 of that cost is in the battery pack, even for being Chinese made. At that price, I don't see why they don't make it an EREV-50. The high power density of LiFePO4 should allow for it, it's not a commuting vehicle, and how many soccer moms travel more than 50 miles to school and soccer practice? If they did, the range extender would be there. In my opinion, they're making a newbie mistake by not realizing that an electric minivan is going to make it so that people can't go on family vacations with them, one of the main reasons people buy them in the US, especially when they've already developed and selling the tech to do it a year ago.

For your question Texas, I think they are bringing their EREV sedan eventually (now in the form of the F3DM, but surely in some other form so as not to infringe on Toyota's patents) to the US market, the last I heard, Wang was aiming for 2011 (feasible since they supposedly might have the E6 for sale in 2010), as it says in this Dec 2008 article.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/12/19/china-closing-gms-coffin.aspx

When they throw their dual mode tech in a legit body with nice fit and finish, and get those things to the US market at anywhere near the $16,000 Wang thinks he can make them for the Chinese market, with a $7,500 tax credit, GM will certainly think "game changer".

http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/13/byd-fd3m-worlds-first-mass-produced-electric-car-not-catching-on-in-china/

You know Wang Chuan-Fu is just crazy enough to figure out a way to do it too. That's what his plan has been all along, become the world's biggest auto maker.

http://thebatterytimes.com/2009/04/14/point-proven-byd-ceo-drinks-battery-fluid/comment-page-1/

As far as their reliability. A lot of after market automotive parts are already made in China anyway. They have as much (or more) experience as anyone. I bet they'll have the longevity we would associate with Kia or something. Not good relative to the reliability juggernaut vehicles of today, but not bad compared to 20 years ago. Remember, BYD automotive didn't even start until GM scrapped their EV program (I love that irony, not that Wagoner cares as he's living large as life right now getting paychecks so big that he can't even count all the zeroes).

Eventually I can see Chinese vehicles catching up in quality if they have committed executives. The Japanese had reliability problems at first, and we all know how that turned out.

What about their plug-in hybrid? Did they mention that being rushed?
Toyota lawyers would be over F3DM and it would never set a foot in the US.

We have no idea if BYD is infringing on Toyotas patents.. it does not appear so from the scanty diagrams I have seen... apparently the system uses a clutch and two motors.

It looks more like a Volt serial configuration but with the addition of a clutch so that the ICE can also drive the wheels directly, presumably in hwy cruise conditions.. apparently a distinct improvement over the Volt aproach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_F3DM

This doesn't bare a striking resemblance to a Toyota Corolla?

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/03/byd-f3dm-plug-in-electric-hybrid-china.php

http://www.treehugger.com/byd-f3dm-plug-in-002.jpg

What about a car that has been selling for the better part of a year, with the drivetrain of a Volt and seats 5 for $16,000, and they're making a profit at that price?
The car you describe doesn't exist today. If you think F3DM is it, it isn't.


The E6 is going to be $40,000 because it must be carrying a huge amount of batteries to power a minivan 250 miles.
Given how BYD gives out its range estimates(F3DM will go 60 miles on a charge if you drive it on a circular test track at 30 mph...), the real world number should be half that. Afterall, E6 is a very heavy vehicle.


At that price, I don't see why they don't make it an EREV-50.
BYD cannot produce engines that could pass US emissions test.


As far as their reliability. A lot of after market automotive parts are already made in China anyway.
And those with better quality reputations tend to not buy parts from Chinese suppliers.


I bet they'll have the longevity we would associate with Kia or something.
Average Chinese brand car is designed for a lifespan of 7-years/120K miles.


but not bad compared to 20 years ago.
Volvos of 1989 would have a trouble passing today's crash test.


Eventually I can see Chinese vehicles catching up in quality if they have committed executives.
In China, building a quality car at higher price is a fatal business tactic since the market is driven by first-time buyers who don't understand the virtue of quality. Consumers consider Chinese brand for models priced under 100,000 Yuan($12,000); over that price limit, people no longer considers Chinese brand models and will consider foreign brand models only. This is why foreigners control 75% of Chinese auto market and hundreds of Chinese brands duke it out for a slice of remaining 25%.


The Japanese had reliability problems at first, and we all know how that turned out.
Japanese were obsessed with quality for at least 500 years. Japanese practice of paying top yen for top quality services and goods puzzled observers from Japan's neighbors, who wrote "Why are these idiots paying 100 pieces of gold for a simple tea bowl?? It's only twice as good but they are paying 100 times over for it. I don't get it."

Chinese on the other hand has been very price driven before the birth of christ, quality be damned.

This historical context is reflected in today's market, where Japanese products are of top quality but also very expensive, while Chinese products are dirt-cheap and offer good value for your money but none having exceptional quality. Expect the same from Chinese cars.

many Americans are price driven also, witness all the yugos that were sold in the mid 80s.. I have no doubt the F3DM will sell well at below $20k.. apparently it does well in European crash testing already, and you know how protective the Europeans are of their local car industry.

I have no idea, all these modern cars look the same to me.. how did Honda get away with the looks of the Insight?.. it looks (to my untrained eye) just like a Prius. I assume you meant the actual structure of the BYD car down to the millimeter was copied from a Toyota?..


This doesn't bare a striking resemblance to a Toyota Corolla?

To pass muster BEVs will have to go through the wind tunnel; it's like a sausage press, they'll all come out looking mostly the same.

I have no idea, all these modern cars look the same to me.. how did Honda get away with the looks of the Insight?.. it looks (to my untrained eye) just like a Prius. I assume you meant the actual structure of the BYD car down to the millimeter was copied from a Toyota?..

Yes, I'm pretty sure, down to the mm.

http://photos4.ebizautos.com/used-2005-toyota-corolla-s-6952-4110815-1-400.jpg

http://photos4.ebizautos.com/used-2005-toyota-corolla-s-6952-4110815-1-400.jpg

HyperMiler wrote: blah blah blah





So HyperMiler, you hate the Chinese too?! lol.

I think HyperMiler forgets about how crappy the Korean (HyperMiler is Korean or loves Koreans only) cars were when they first came out. Does anyone else remember? Same with the crappy Japanese cars that came to America in the early 80's.

HyperMiler also does not understand that many products we use today, that have Japanese, German, American, etc. "Top Quality" brands printed on the box are actually manufactured in China and other low cost labor countries. You didn't know this HyperMiler?

Since HyperMiler has never been in a factory, he has no idea about what is involved in making what he calls a quality product. In the true sense, a high quality product is one that fully satisfies the customer. Just because a product is made of gold and has a surface finish that is down to the nano level does not mean the customer would buy it (they would not be able to afford it and is not of value to them, even if they could).

The reason why China has been so successful lately is because they deliver products that people buy. Period. They are very inexpensive and most the time get the job done. If the products didn’t. people would stop buying them.

BYD's CEO acknowledges that their products are at least a decade less behind established automakers in terms of fit and finish and that it will take time to reach higher levels of reliability and other attributes that are associated with automakers like Honda.

It's the same path that Hyundai followed. HyperMiler, did you already forget?

So, if the global economy continues after peak oil, each country will need to find out what it can do best compared to other countries. Will it be very refined and expensive products with very tight tolerances like what the Japanese are famous for? Will they have more realistic tolerances at less cost to more closely match what their customers actually need? Who knows. So far, China seems to be doing great, making great strides in their manufacturing technology and building their infrastructure as well as their reputation.

Once again, don't fall for the hateful hype HyperMiler is spewing. Just because a person was born in China does not mean they are doomed to build low quality products or that all Japanese will provide the highest quality products. When all is said and done, it’s the person or company that most satisfies and delights their customers, including the price of the product, that will end up with the business.

EVs are coming out of the woodwork. All the pre announcing reminds me of the microprocessor wars in the 80's and 90's. The difference is the chip makers told you the basic reasons/facts for the improvements (speed and/or cost), they just couldn't show you a working chip. Now with the cars you just get claims. The Chinese will have a segment of the market, no doubt. So will the Koreans, Germans, Americans, French, Japanese, etc. Many pure commuters like cheap and a low entry price to an EV would get a large following IMHO.

ame with the crappy Japanese cars that came to America in the early 80's.
You must be from an alternate universe where Japanese were arriving to the US in the 80s. In mine, Japanese came in the 60s and already earned a reputation for superior quality by the 70s.

Now you see why Texas is disagreeing with the rest of us; he's posting from an alternate universe.


HyperMiler also does not understand that many products we use today, that have Japanese, German, American, etc. "Top Quality" brands printed on the box are actually manufactured in China
You don't understand that there is a massive difference in quality between Chinese goods made by foreign companies in China and Chinese goods made by Chinese companies.


a high quality product is one that fully satisfies the customer.
By not breaking down, that is.


The reason why China has been so successful lately is because they deliver products that people buy.
Actually Chinese government complains that foreign companies producing in China is responsible for China's massive trade surplus and China actually faces a trade deficit when you only count export/import businesses done by Chinese-owned companies.


Period. They are very inexpensive and most the time get the job done.
Which doesn't include cars and auto parts.


It's the same path that Hyundai followed. HyperMiler, did you already forget?
Actually it is not the same path Hyundai followed. Hyundai played by the rules even from the beginning(There were never any piracy/IP theft issues raised with Hyundai products, because Hyundai fully paid up all the license and royalties for purchases tech until their internal tech became ready), then dumped $10 billion to construct a massive R&D complex size of a city staffed by 10,000 engineers when they were selling less than a million cars per year.

There were two criticial differences between China and Japan/Korea during their auto industry's infancy.

1. Chinese automarket is already overrun by foreigners with 75% market share(If you thought foreign brand dominance in the US auto market was bad, wait until you come to China where Chinese people actually look you down if you drive a Chinese brand car unless it is something like HongQi associated with communist party leadership), whereas Japan and Korea shut doors to foreign automakers until their local industry were exporting to the US for at least 10 years, controlled 95% of local market, and were fully ready to compete with foreign automakers when the market opened up. This is considered a critical mistake by Chinese policy makers who opened up China's auto market too early and many consider that it would be next to impossible to reclaim Chinese domestic automarket share from foreigners. Indeed, it is the foreigners who report massive sales surge during the current Chinese auto market recovery, not Chinese makers.

2. All Japanese and Korean automakers were privately owned, where as all but two Chinese automakers(Geely and BYD) are government owned. Government-run automakers aren't as flexible and speedy as private-run companies in decision making process.


Just because a person was born in China does not mean they are doomed to build low quality products or that all Japanese will provide the highest quality products.
But building high-quality/high-cost product in China is a lick of death. Chinese consumers prefer product with high value/cost ratio, meaning cheap goods with compromised quality. If Chinese consumers are willing to pay premium for quality, then they always go for foreign brand goods, not Chinese brand goods. Thus Chinese makers are stuck in the low cost/low quality market segment because of consumer rejection.

You can already see the future of China in Taiwan. There is no premium brand goods coming from Taiwan.

HyperMiler wrote:

“You don't understand that there is a massive difference in quality between Chinese goods made by foreign companies in China and Chinese goods made by Chinese companies.”

Then followed with:

“But building high-quality/high-cost product in China is a lick of death.”


Huh? What are you smoking over there? Can Chinese workers produce top quality products or not? You say they can (and of course they do, everyday) and then you say it’s the lick of death. Seriously, you need medication for your issues.

Oh, here are some of those high quality Japanese cars from 1980. Yup, true high quality gold. lol. Were they all bad? No. They were starting to get better but still landed more than their share of terds. Point is, world-class manufacturing takes time.


http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh200/kirk_316/blog/800px-1976_Toyota_Corolla.jpg

http://www.v8power.net/jarle/images/carina1.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/221/511719488_7483578857.jpg?v=0



Oh, Hyundai didn't follow a similar path of crap to good? You don't even know the history of your favorite company? lol. Here is a free education:


"Once A Punch Line, Hyundai Racks Up Sales, Awards
by Frank Langfitt

In the early 1990s, Hyundai's image was so bad, the brand served as an insult in a Hollywood movie.

The film was Glengarry Glen Ross — David Mamet's tale of a down-and-out real estate office. Alec Baldwin plays a highly paid corporate heavy.

In once scene, he humiliates one of the agents he has come to fire: "You drove a Hyundai to get here tonight. I drove an $80,000 BMW."

Fast forward to this past January. The scene is the North American International Auto Show in Detroit. It was announced that the Hyundai Genesis was the winner of the 2009 North American Car of the Year. The Genesis was Hyundai's first luxury car.

The automaker followed with a Super Bowl ad that played on its underdog status. Actors playing executives at BMW and Lexus yell at their subordinates about Hyundai's improbable win. The executives repeatedly scream: "Hyundai!" "Hyundai!"

Then the voiceover announcer says: "Win one little award, and suddenly everyone gets your name right."

When Hyundai first came to the U.S., the name was synonymous with poor quality. Hyundai introduced the Excel, a small sedan, in 1986. But within a few years, the seat fabric was fraying and the bodies were rusting out.

"Reliability and durability — it couldn't have been worse," says John Wolkonowicz, who follows the car business for IHS Global Insight, a financial analysis firm. "It was one step ahead of a Yugo."

Hyundai became a punch line on late-night talk shows. Sales slid accordingly, and then the company spent the 1990s focusing on quality."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106333924

Can Chinese workers produce top quality products or not?
Chinese workers can under foreign direction.
Chinese workers cannot under Chinese direction.


Oh, here are some of those high quality Japanese cars from 1980.
The cars in your pics had JD Power IQS rating of 200 ~ 250, as opposed to 700 ~ 800 of US models. In other word, Japanese cars of 1980 had 1/3rd the defect rate of US manufacutured cars. This is where the religion of Japanese quality among US consumers came from.


In the early 1990s, Hyundai's image was so bad, the brand served as an insult in a Hollywood movie.
Even then, Hyundai was in the process of building tens of billions to build its massive R&D complex. You do not see equivalent R&D building activity among Chinese auto makers.

In Asian cultures, the ability to make precise copies has been a virtue for centuries. The ability for the apprentice to be able to exactly copy the master's work is how technology, design and art was handed down over the centuries. To make good copies was how an artisan built a reputation. This cultural thinking, evolved over centuries is not easy to overcome.

The Western ideals that prize individuality and innovation over conformity and decisions made by committee are hard to adopt over night. However, with more and more Asian students being trained in Western universities and design schools, the younger generations are learning our ways fast. This coupled with a new found capitalism and the wealth that can go with it, is inspiring nations to change. In a short while, Chinese domestic product will rival that of the world.

The question is, we as Americans, should we be celebrating this turn of events? Should we be so eager to embrace this new Chinese wonder wagon just because it is cheap and now? I for one say no.

“ ...the younger generations are learning our ways fast... ” – Dav8or

Younger generations? How about Larry Shinoda (1963 Corvette Sting Ray)? Or, Ken Okuyama (Ferrari Enzo), Satoshi Wada (Audi A6), George Nagashima (BMW E34, E36, E90, Z3), Jun Okazaki (Renault) etc.?

Automotive design is very international. There are at least 12 Korean designers working at Nissan’s Atsugi Design Centre (out of about 170 designers), There is a Japanese designer doing design work for a Chinese automaker in his studio in Italy.

Yes. The automobile business is very international. That is correct. HyperMiler now claims that:

"Chinese workers can under foreign direction.
Chinese workers cannot under Chinese direction."


You can see how silly some people think about things. See how infantile and racist this comment is? Thus, I think he is saying that the Chinese cannot manage themselves and are destined for failure. Only if Koreans come into the company will China survive, or some ridiculous crap.

Fact is, building an modern, international-class automobile is a very complex endeavor. You can't just start from scratch and expect to be on the same level. HyperMiler proves, in is hateful way, that the Chinese worker is capable of producing products that the world considers high quality. Did they get there overnight? No, it takes time. Not just in the design of the car but the manufacturing infrastructure. China's nationally ran companies, like BYD, will eventually get there. To say that their CEO Wang Chuan-Fu is somehow culturally incapable of reaching an international level is preposterous and obviously the spew of a racist.


Then I used the example of Hyundai to make my point. I argued that Hyundai, a Korean automaker, went though a similar crap-to-good period in their product manufacturing. HyperMiler, blind by his love of all things Korean responded with:

"Even then, Hyundai was in the process of building tens of billions to build its massive R&D complex. You do not see equivalent R&D building activity among Chinese auto makers."

What in Gods name does that have to do with anything? People who's hearts are filled with irrational hate say the darndest things, don't they? Sorry HyperMiler, Hyundai put out crap in the beginning and it took time for them to reach international standards. Just admit it and move on. China will do the same.

Thus, I think he is saying that the Chinese cannot manage themselves and are destined for failure.
But that's exactly what Jackie Chan said, and many mainland Chinese agreed with his statement. < http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/18/jackie-chan-chinese-peopl_n_188541.html >


Only if Koreans come into the company will China survive, or some ridiculous crap.
Not necessarily Korean, but any foreigner with an international reputation.


HyperMiler proves, in is hateful way, that the Chinese worker is capable of producing products that the world considers high quality.
When foreign engineers and production managers tell eager young Chinese assemblers what to do, yes.

This is similar to how Honda taught Alabama residents who were "technically illiterate" how to assemble Odyssey using pictures.


China's nationally ran companies, like BYD, will eventually get there.
Looking at how BYD runs its business, like hiring away engineers from A123's Chinese plant to come up with its battery and xeroxing Toyotas in its auto division, I don't think so.


To say that their CEO Wang Chuan-Fu is somehow culturally incapable of reaching an international level is preposterous and obviously the spew of a racist.
One person cannot change a whole society.


What in Gods name does that have to do with anything?
Hyundai was dropping in tens of billions of dollars in R&D which resulted in improved product with better quality. I don't see a Chinese automaker dropping $10 billion to build a brand new R&D campus the size of a small city complete with a 5 mile test track and a wind-tunnel to engineer world-class cars. To the contrary, most Chinese automakers test their prototypes on the street, which makes them easy to spot by spyshot photographers.


People who's hearts are filled with irrational hate say the darndest things, don't they?
A person who says "Chinese will get there because they look similar to Japanese and Koreans and look where Japanese and Koreans are now. And I am sure Chinese eat sushi for dinner since they are all look-alikes" - A person who is absolutely clueless about China and East Asia in general.

A person who says "There are significant cultural and social differences between China and Japan/Korea, and Chinese may not repeat the past success of Japanese and Koreans because of these significant differences" - A person who understands East Asia very well.

HyperMiler, you couldn't be more wrong about the point Chan was trying to make and it has no bearing on what Texas was discussing.

You have significant trouble with reading comprehension, especially with drawing inferences and conclusions. You should check and see what community resources are available to you.

HyperMiler, you couldn't be more wrong about the point Chan was trying to make and it has no bearing on what Texas was discussing.

You have significant trouble with reading comprehension, especially with drawing inferences and conclusions. You should check and see what community resources are available to you.




Agreed. I hope that is obvious to everyone who's tag is not HyperMiler. ;)

About China's history... HyperMiler, you don't think China has an extremely long and successful history? No innovation? Nothing special, just a bunch of "Asian" goof-offs? Now who here has no idea about China's culture? Yes. It's HyperMiler.

HyperMiler, you couldn't be more wrong about the point Chan
The point Jackie Chan was trying to make was a general lack of social order within Chinese society that's creating a social chaos, which is very well-understood to those who understand China. Anyone who experiences Chinese culture knows this is very chaotic unlike extremely orderly Japanese culture, and there is general disregard for observing laws in China.


has no bearing on what Texas was discussing.
Texas doesn't know what he's talking about. He is one of the type that says "Yea, they all lookalike, so they must be all the same" kind of ignorant person.


You have significant trouble with reading comprehension
The reading comprehension problem of a person who reads several languages? I don't think so.

About China's history... HyperMiler, you don't think China has an extremely long and successful history?
China regained its independence from its foreign rulers in 1912. A news to you, probably.


Nothing special, just a bunch of "Asian" goof-offs?
What you don't understand is that there is no "Asian" stereotype you can fall back to. Chinese, Japanese, and Korean are extremely dislike from each other, they don't even think in same order which is obvious by the languages spoken, which bear absolutely no relation to one another linguistically(Except for Japanese and Korean which may have a common root). It's not like the "European" kind of relationship where Europeans share common Greco-Roman cultural heritage and speak similar Indo-European languages.

China regained its independence from its foreign rulers in 1912. A news to you, probably.



Is that all you remember from your 9th grade history class? I think I'm starting to understand your hate and ignorance. Why don't you try out Google and go back though the timeline.

HyperMiler: "The reading comprehension problem of a person who reads several languages? I don't think so."

I have no doubt you think you read several languages.

Alright, I think everyone has weighed in with their opinion of what will become of BYD and other Chinese automotive efforts in the US. We will just have to wait and see who's prediction comes true.

Is that all you remember from your 9th grade history class?
I didn't have history in 9th grade.


Why don't you try out Google and go back though the timeline.
Why don't you do that yourself and find out what happened in 1912.

Alright, I think everyone has weighed in with their opinion of what will become of BYD and other Chinese automotive efforts in the US. We will just have to wait and see who's prediction comes true.
Chinese won't be a significant factor in the US.

Unlike hungry Japanese and Koreans with tiny domestic markets too small to survive and must go overseas to survive, Chinese makers are content with their domestic market, the largest in the world.

Why bother with the cut-throat US and Euro market when they could focus on the largest auto market in the world, their own home market, and 3rd world countries, where they would not be opposed by established makers and where buyers are price-sensitive?

A small factor I forgot to add.

China is the only major auto market in the world where the price of car goes down each year, not up.

Thus making a high-quality car at high-cost can be fatal for a Chinese automaker, where they must cut cost by any mean to cope with annual price cut, and there is no Chinese consumer demand for high-quality automobiles from Chinese brand; Chinese consumers shop foreign brand if they are willing to pay more for quality.

Alright, I think everyone has weighed in with their opinion of what will become of BYD and other Chinese automotive efforts in the US. We will just have to wait and see who's prediction comes true.






Of course, when (not if) a Chinese automaker reaches world-class status HyperMiler will just justify it by saying that there was a foreigner in management or that they copied it, despite their inability to maintain that level. You can't win an argument with the irrational. I have learned this long ago with HyperMiler. I do however, feel HyperMiler is a good representative of ignorant people who fill the Internet with hype and hateful spew. It doesn't matter that reality, facts and data completely refute many of HyperMiler's arguments.

I have to admit I enjoy reading his impossibly insane posts. I can almost picture an 8th grader (or lower, he said he didn't have history class in 9th grade so perhaps that means he is younger - that would also explain a lot) or some old Korean guy sitting at his computer typing away. Thanks for the laughs and entertainment, HyperMiler.

The truth is that most people buy cars based on the cost.. they will ignore quality, safety and reliability if the savings are big enough.

Many barriers to trade will be erected against chinese cars, every country wants to protect their local industry... the chinese might get canny and just bypass pollution regulations by just offering an electric car but god knows what other barriers bureaucrats will come up with.

Can you imagine any company matching an F3DM at $16k and making a profit?.. incredible.

I do however, feel HyperMiler is a good representative of ignorant people who fill the Internet with hype and hateful spew.
That would be you, not me.


It doesn't matter that reality, facts and data completely refute many of HyperMiler's arguments.
The real world data supports my arguement, not yours.

I mean, you are telling us that Chinese cars will take over the world when Chinese can't even take back market share from dominant foreign brands in their own domestic market.


I have to admit I enjoy reading his impossibly insane posts.
Actually it is the case of you failing to put yourself in a proper context, either because you don't understand the context or because of your hippocampal defect problem.

The truth is that most people buy cars based on the cost.. they will ignore quality, safety and reliability if the savings are big enough.
Then Malibu would be murdering Camry and Accord in the market with all the rebates; it doesn't.

The total cost of ownership includes repair and maintenance, insurance premium, and depreciation. The real reason Camry and Accord are best seller is that they offer the least trouble and lowest cost of ownership through strong resale value.

Chinese car's MSRP maybe cheap, but the total cost of ownership wouldn't be.


Many barriers to trade will be erected against chinese cars
Those are called safety, emissions, and fuel economy standards; the regulations that every vehicle manufacturer selling in the US must meet to protect consumers and environment.


god knows what other barriers bureaucrats will come up with.
They are doing that to protect consumers. Malibu of today is safer than Volvo of 20 years ago, and highway death rate is falling due to safer cars on the road. Would we be having that if it wasn't for stronger safety regulations?


Can you imagine any company matching an F3DM at $16k and making a profit?.. incredible.
I can't, and BYD can't either.

This is why they are quoting $40K+ for US-market E6. Good luck trying to sell a $40K Chinese car to consumers, electric or not.

Originally Posted by Texas
I do however, feel HyperMiler is a good representative of ignorant people who fill the Internet with hype and hateful spew.


That would be you, not me.




I'm not surprised at the quality of your comeback. That kind of quality has not been seen since those early Hyundai cars that came to America.

I can't, and BYD can't either.

This is why they are quoting $40K+ for US-market E6. Good luck trying to sell a $40K Chinese car to consumers, electric or not.

Note that we are talking about the F3DM, originally sold at $21k and now lowered to $16k due to poor sales.

In case you forgot, the F3DM is the BYD version of the Volt.. a serial electric with a 3 cyclinder range extender and a 16kwh battery pack.. The E6 is the BEV with the 250 mile range and probably a 72kwh lithium pack.

Then Malibu would be murdering Camry and Accord in the market with all the rebates; it doesn't.



If the Malibu was dropped to $9999 there would be riots in the dealerships from people trying to buy it, and the chinese can build/sell/profit malibus at that cost.

Some numbers for Texas

http://www.chinacartimes.com/2009/06/10/top-selling-cars-in-jan-to-may/

Top 10 Best Sellers in China(Jan~May 2009)

1. Buick Excelle (94,300)
2. New Elantra (93,400)
3. Jetta (88,400)
4. BYD F3 (86,400)
5. VW Santana (73,200)
6. Old Elantra (70,600)
7. Chery QQ (69,900)
8. Xia Li (65,500)
9. Honda Accord (63,600)
10. Toyota Camry (55,900)

7 out of top 10 are foreign brand models.

the chinese can build/sell/profit malibus at that cost.
No they can't. The reason is that they have to import almost everything to build US-market models.

No Chinese steel mill produces high-strength galvanized steel sheet necessary to build US legal models, so they must be imported from Japan. No Chinese auto parts maker produces catalytic converter that could pass California emissions standard, so they must be imported from Japan. The list goes on and on and on...

Honda already explained this situation; it costs more to build an Accord in China than in Japan, mainly due to heavy parts importation. Likewise it costs more to build Euro-market Honda Fit in China than it does in Japan, but Honda's doing it to please Chinese central government.

In case you forgot, the F3DM is the BYD version of the Volt..
No, F3DM is BYD's version of Toyota Corolla that Toyota lawyers would feast upon its arrival at US port. This is why BYD's talking E6 and not F3DM as its first US model, because F3DM cannot be imported into the US.

No, F3DM is BYD's version of Toyota Corolla that Toyota lawyers would feast upon its arrival at US port. This is why BYD's talking E6 and not F3DM as its first US model, because F3DM cannot be imported into the US.

Very true, but how long do you think it will be before BYD can get the F3DM tech into a legit body though?

Very true, but how long do you think it will be before BYD can get the F3DM tech into a legit body though?






About one year after an automaker that sells cars in America realizes they missed the boat and need to catch up fast. Most people have heard of Intel inside but said automaker won't be applying a sticker that says BYD inside, even if it's true.

People talk about the lack of lab testing by BYD but fail to acknowledge that the best testing is road testing. Real-world testing will show you where your design problems are. Thus, since BYD already has their cars being tested all over the varied climate of China they don't really need a super advanced inside test center.

Inside a super test center GM puts a car in a tank of water. BYD drives their car into a lake. The only real difference is that the BYD test cost about a thousand times less.

Racing has been used throughout history to not only show off a automaker's technology but to stress their technology to the limit. Racing can be extremely stressful on a design and provides more than enough feedback for the engineers.

Note that we are talking about the F3DM, originally sold at $21k and now lowered to $16k due to poor sales.

In case you forgot, the F3DM is the BYD version of the Volt.. a serial electric with a 3 cyclinder range extender and a 16kwh battery pack.. The E6 is the BEV with the 250 mile range and probably a 72kwh lithium pack.I disagree hempster
Because the F3DM appears to "receive propulsion power from 2 individual sources ,either individually or simultaneously" (MG2 and/or ICE) it therefore meets the SAE definition of a hybrid (HEV) not an EV or EREV which is electric propulsion only. Assuming it uses station charging off the grid then it's a PHEV.

Based on simple F3DM powerflow diagrams I've seen (attached below) its potential disadvantage to other current HEVs would be totally fixed gearing in it's sprocket ratio (direct chain to axle drive with no additional final drive gearing?).
Then lacking any planetary gearset/s there would be no input or compound power splits available and therefore no electrically variable ratio operation.(like the Prius, Escape, and GM 2-modes)

The electrically operated clutch that connects the ICE to the chain drive is another potential weak point IMO.It looks very similar to the devices currently used in many automatic 4WD systems. Even with pulse-width modulation on the clutch coils it would be difficult to match up the speeds and permit smooth transfer of additional TQ from the ICE without long-term durability and/or potential NVH issues.
JMO
WOT

Look at picture 1,2 and 4.. the clutch is open thus the wheels are solely driven by the M2 motor, just like a Volt.. in picture 3 the clutch is engaged and thus bypasses the Volt's sole problem, poor efficiency in charge sustaining mode and it becomes Prius like.

It is a unique combination of the Volt and the Prius.. eventually we will see a review.. the $16k cost is outstanding.. add a couple thousand for airbags, beef it up a bit and bring it in to the States.

Look at picture 1,2 and 4.. the clutch is open thus the wheels are solely driven by the M2 motor, just like a Volt.. As is the case in pretty much ANY series-parallel hybrid in EV creep/launch mode, that's not unique... Under these conditions, yes I'll agree the same as the Volt but also the Prius, Escape, GM 2-mode... MG2 alone powers the drive wheels.Most all EVs and HEVs do exactly that, so I'm not following you...

in picture 3 the clutch is engaged and thus bypasses the Volt's sole problem, poor efficiency in charge sustaining mode and it becomes Prius like.What makes you think this is any more efficient? What specifically do you define as the root of the Volt's inefficiency during charge sustain mode? How is shutting off the pure electric drive and using the ICE to provide 100% motive power any more efficient than having it spin JUST the generator (MG1) as on the Volt??

IMO BYD does this because THEY HAVE TO as it's a HYBRID. The 3500lb F3DM apparently has only a 50kW traction motor/MG2 (yes similar in size to a Prius and many other hybrids) so it obviously wont be able to power the vehicle in pure electric mode to very high speeds.Have you ever seen any data for maximum speed? I've heard/read it's 50km/hr max (from the 08 Geneva International Motor Show press release) Given its fixed gearing the actual ratio chosen would obviously have to be some sort of speed/torque/energy consumption compromise.

The only thing that really sets this car apart is it's rather large (13.2kw) LiFePO4 battery and the use of an electro-mechanical clutch to make and break the ICE connection into the mechanical powerflow path, (as opposed to a constant mesh input split planetary gearset like most other hybrids). I would suggest the ICE probably needs to be the sole primary power source to achieve and maintain anything near NA highway speeds. (possibly with "some" electrical assistance available under specific conditions- as with any hybrid)


It is a unique combination of the Volt and the Prius.. Well I can see the Prius similarity because it's an HEV plain & simple. (and AFAIK that's how BYD markets it) But what in your opinion makes it similar to an EV or the Volt? By your apparent definition the Prius (and essentially ALL hybrids) have a "range extender"
-THE ICE PROPELLING THE CAR! LOL
To put it simply because the F3DM (and ALL HEVs) can use ICE and/or the electric traction motor to power the drive wheels it's a hybrid. Then since it can be plugged into the grid to charge it's HV source it becomes a PHEV.
But by no definition that I am aware of, could this vehicle be defined as a pure EV or BEV (only electricity used to provide ALL propulsion)

eventually we will see a review.. the $16k cost is outstanding.. add a couple thousand for airbags, beef it up a bit and bring it in to the States.Well I look forward to seeing that review. But given the stringent standards for emissions and safety in North America and the lack of them in it's native land I wouldn't hold my/your breath
WopOnTour

It is a unique combination of the Volt and the Prius.. eventually we will see a review.. the $16k cost is outstanding.. add a couple thousand for airbags, beef it up a bit and bring it in to the States.

This site is funny. It attracts people here who look around at other technologies and products and become bullish about something else, but come back here to proselytize. Texas goes on about PBP, Dagwood goes on about Toyota and the Prius, Jason loves the Moller Rotary engine and now you keep popping up about BYD. I guess the Volt does seem kind of disappointing right about now with it's high price tag, limited availability, generic styling and still unknown performance numbers. It does make one want to look for something new and exciting, or at least real and tangible. Maybe it's just fatigue from the long wait.

However, BYD F3DM reviews? Don't look for them to be glowing. It will follow in the footsteps of other Chinese imports and be sold more on the mindset of; "I now it's kind of crappy, but I can get three of these for just one (insert established quality brand) and when it breaks, I can just throw it away and get another one!" It has proven a successful sales strategy in this new self destructing America with ever decreasing buying power.

Good post!
It all began with those damn BIC lighters...
LOL
WOT

lol, you are right.. I do shop at Walmart and why not?..

F3DM reviews will be nasty.. rattles, huge panel gaps, odd looking interior parts.. much like GM cars from the 70s :)

I am interested in other things in the reviews and long term durability reports. Can BYD make batteries that last 3-5 years?.. We dont know.

The common thing among many of us is that we proselytize about electric vehicles.