: Healthcare debate debacle



Texas
08-15-2009, 11:28 PM
1) We had over 15 years to fix the problem, ever since Hillary was told to stick her plan where the sun doesn’t shine. How come all of the Republicans, conservatives, corporations did not attempt to change anything even while costs continued to spiral higher? The system cost is out of control and has been for over a decade! Why do they want to “fix” it now? Think about this.

2) Over 600 lobbyists are doing their thing to kill healthcare reform, or at least water it down so it does not hurt their constituents (huge healthcare corporations). Can you imagine 6 people bothering you 24/7? All of them high paid and fully funded to make your life a living hell should you vote yes for healthcare reform? All of them organizing terror campaigns to put doubt and the fear of God into your constituents (mostly uninformed and uneducated Americans).

3) The U.S. is the ONLY developed nation without universal healthcare. There are four basic types, each having their advantages and disadvantages. I wish Americans would research the different types that are used around the world. Check out the WHO (World Health Organization) on the Internet and look over all of the studies and statistics instead of listening to their political leaders. Do you listen to your car mechanic about your health problems? The cost of the U.S. healthcare system is TWICE as much as the most expensive universal healthcare program on earth (France). It is not unpatriotic to acknowledge these facts and to use other health care plans as a benchmark. In fact, that what businesses do. They check out what the competition is doing and improve on it. That’s exactly what we should be doing. Not doing things half-assed to protect our frail egos and corrupt power structures. This makes me ill. Let’s just do it right and have the best plan on earth.

4) The U.S. does not have unlimited resources. Yes, we all want perfect healthcare that will give us heart / lung / liver / intestine transplants and keep us alive for 200 years but we cannot afford that. There has to be some reasonable way to limit multi-million dollar operations and lawsuits. No? Is this crazy? Death panels? I laugh at how low the lobbyist will go to put the fear on. Is it so unreasonable that we, as a nation, have to limit healthcare to say 25% of GDP? If we don’t, we will go broke. If we don’t put a limit on things we will be... Exactly where we are today - costs spiraling out of control to our own financial collapse. Americans have got to start to understand that exponential growth forever is impossible. Period. Wake up Americans! Energy is also about to give you another wake-up call, “Americans, this is Mother Nature calling. I’m not increasing your petroleum supply anymore. In fact, I’m going to start slowly reducing it every year. Get your lazy asses out of bed and deal with it.” I’m sick and tired of the softness our politicians take with Americans. They are killing us with kindness (actually their fear of making us mad) and harming us with not being truthful about our true financial condition. News Flash: Our financial condition is critical. “Clear!”

5) Tying BASIC healthcare to profits is cruel and unusual punishment. Why don’t we leave the profit motive to extraordinary care and cosmetic care? Plenty to go around. If you allow corporations to decide who gets what based on profits you might as well allow waterboarding and other torture. Is this view extreme? No. There is nothing more painful then for a parent to watch a family member (particularly their child) suffer. Health is of the highest importance to all humans. Holding their health or the health of their family over their heads is no difference than putting chains around their ankles. In fact, it’s worse. Controlling a person by fear is no different than slavery, especially when they have very few if no options (like in a very bad economy). You can justify it all you want but deep down people know this is true. We are just desensitized to it. Imagine, we are desensitized to the health and wellbeing of our OWN citizens. I’m not talking about some undeveloped African nation here. I’m talking about our nation. Clearly we have a way to go. This is obvious but perhaps we can start moving in the right direction. Before that, we need to fix the financial bleeding. “Forceps!”

5) Most Republicans are against this plan purely from the political perspective. Most would rather go down with the ship than to allow a Democrat to take away their power and to allow them to bask in the glory of fixing the problem. It would be political suicide for them if it worked. That’s politics. I hoped that most Democrats knew this and would not be so swayed by the same old silly tricks. They should be just asking the following questions and make Obama and friends give detailed explanations of what will happen every step of the way:

a] “Obama, you said this is a strictly a cost reduction project. Please explain the costs, year-to-year of how this will help our financial position. We want both the “doing nothing plan” and your plan put next to each other so they can be compared and contrasted. If the finances do not work out very favorably and do not result in a stable financial situation then go back to work until it does.”

b] “Obama, please explain resource limits and how much our country can afford. Will the healthcare system be tied to GDP or some other metric? If so, give us the exact details. If not, why not and give us your reasons and how you expect us to control costs in the future.”

c] “Democrats, if questions a] and b] are answered completely and to your reasonable satisfaction will you vote for this plan? If not, why not. You are on your own and don’t expect even one Republican vote. There’s just too much at stake for extremely wealthy and powerful corporations. This must be dictated by the people, for the people. Since the Democrats have all the power and the majority you have a responsibility to get this fixed. This power position might not happen for decades to come. Make sure it is done right. This plan could easily make or break our country.”

Republicans, make sure questions a] and b] get fully addressed. Even if you don’t like the answers (you won’t because it’s against your programming - like agreeing with the enemy). Make sure it all comes out. Costs must be controlled. We can come up with a very good system where the cost is tied to GDP. All it takes is the right mindset and discipline. If we treat our citizens like valued human beings and are honest with them that we can’t pave the streets with gold they will understand.

omnimoeish
08-16-2009, 12:36 AM
Texas, so what is your opinion of the health care reform bill that the Obama administration has proposed? Have you read it? I know it's ridiculously verbose, but you can get the gist of it here.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2300451/posts

Also, you talk about constraining costs. What specific ways would you do this? I mean, say it needs to be no more than 25% of GDP. Now what?

This is interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

Texas
08-16-2009, 10:53 PM
Texas, so what is your opinion of the health care reform bill that the Obama administration has proposed? Have you read it? I know it's ridiculously verbose, but you can get the gist of it here.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2300451/posts

Also, you talk about constraining costs. What specific ways would you do this? I mean, say it needs to be no more than 25% of GDP. Now what?

This is interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared






I personally think it's half-assed and watered down. Of course I don't have to be PC and try to please everyone. I just want the best healthcare system on earth. A system that makes financial sense and uses all other systems as examples.

I also think Obama needs to be more open about costs. Does his plan cut costs or not? If not, why not? Of course the reason is that we can't just start from scratch and do it right. Well, we could, if things get bad enough but not yet. We American's are not ready for that yet.

Does the system talk about limits? If not, why not. It’s a reality we have to learn to live with. Of course we can't talk about this because people then talk about death panels.

Let me say it straight. We need to have limits on healthcare just like we need to have limits on petroleum use and other resource use. We need to also work to have population limits as well. Yes, these concepts are just unacceptable to people who feel we can just grow forever. Sorry folks, soon there will be a wakeup call and we will have to learn to live within our earth-bound means.

Politicians can't talk about it because it would end their career, even though it's what we need to talk about.

Maybe we need to talk about how much pollution we generate. No, that is a limitation. We are Americans and should be able to burn, spend, use as much as we like. We are the chosen. We are the ones. -sarcasm-

We have such arrogance.

So, about America's new healthcare system? Well, if something passes it will be watered down and probably useless. Instead of taking care of critical wounds the system we will most likely let the bleeding continue until the system crashes, then we will blame this person or party or that.

Oh, about Canada's healthcare system? Ask a Canadian if they feel forced to stay at a company for fear of not being able to have a pre-existing condition taken care of. Their answer will be no. This is the most important point. If people have fear of moving within a capitalist system then it's not a free market. What do you call a person that is too afraid to change jobs because of the healthcare system?

Again, we don't have to use Canada's system. We can examine it, look at the good points and the bad points, then look at Japan’s system, England's system, Germany's system, France's system, etc. Then we can design a better system because we have so much data and multiple case studies. Pretend they are all pilot projects for us.

Is everyone happy about their healthcare system? No. Is everyone happy about anything? No. Can you find people that would switch out their universal healthcare for America's system? Yes, but the numbers will be few. Would you find any country out there that would swap out their healthcare system cost for America's? No chance in hell. We have double the cost and the WHO ranks us at 37th. Is that money well spent? No, something is wrong.


Here is a blip from the ranking:


22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei


http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html



Oh, France's system is ranked number one and our cost per capita is double theirs. Huh? How could that be. Well, there are a lot of very wealthy and powerful people getting more so... America, for the people, by the people. Maybe it's just a catch phrase to keep people quiet.

omnimoeish
08-17-2009, 09:01 AM
There are few who would argue the system isn't screwed up. The US government is paying for 43% of the population's health care and still spending more per capita than Canada who has universal health care. The sad thing is that most of the $2 trillion spent a year on health care in the US is going to only the top 5% most expensive people in the US. Most of that 5% is being paid for by the government.

Anyway, here's my beef, the democrats are way too liberal with who should get free health care without lifting a finger in our country (illegal aliens), and very clueless when it comes to supply and demand economics. But the Republicans who do understand economics didn't do jack about it, in fact they're still trying everything they can to keep anything from happening, mainly because anyone on the government payroll already has free health care.

Jim I
08-19-2009, 08:10 AM
Texas:

You make some good points, but you miss a very important reason why our healthcare is so expensive compared to other countries.

Most physicians practice "defensive medicine". They order more tests and procedures than they know are necessary. Why is that?

Fear of lawsuits. It really is that simple. When you have lawyers advertising on TV that they can "get you what you deserve!", then there is a perception that:

#1 All doctors are bad, and you should be able to get some of what is theirs.

#2 If you do not feel that your health is what it should be, then you should be able to blame someone else. Examples: I spilled hot coffee on myself and got burned, so I should get paid. I had shoulder surgery, did no exercises to help it to heal, but I can not lift 500 pounds over my head, so someone owes me.

#3 It is not my fault that I weigh 350 punds, smoke, and lay on the couch 10 hours per day watching TV. So if I am sick, someone else has to make me better, and if they do not do it to MY satisfaction, then get out your checkbook, because I am going to sue you!

We used to have a local lawyer that was proud of the fact that he had sued every doctor in the county. He ended up disbarred and in jail, but that is a story for another thread.

The point is, that healthcare reform without tort reform will never save any money. And we will never get tort reform, because most of the politicians are attorneys, and they are not going to do it.

I am not saying that there are no bad doctors, and that people that are truly injured should not have recouse. What I am saying is that until we control these frivilous lawsuits that have no merit, but end up being paid just to shut them up, the doctors have no choice but to protect themselves, just in case they are ever put on the stand in a trial.

JMHO

Texas
08-19-2009, 08:26 AM
that healthcare reform without tort reform will never save any money.





Although I disagree that it will "never" save money, I agree with you in principle. Legal reform absolutely needs to be part of healthcare reform.

You are right that it would be impossibly difficult. Just as impossibly difficult as taking away the profits from our insurance and pharmacy companies. Just look at the fight they are putting up. It's overwhelming.

I wouldn't be shocked if Obama just threw up his hands and said ****it. My feeling is we need to hit bottom before we can fix most of our systemic problems. We need a complete overhaul of many of our institutions.

However, I would be happy if we just fixed our energy infrastructure. If we can get to a renewable model we can wade though most of the other crap. Like normal evolution. If we can't fix the energy problem we are in for some potentially catastrophic events. I'm talking resource wars, complete civil breakdown and such. Yes, energy is that critical to our way of life. Nothing can be done without it.

Texas
08-20-2009, 10:27 AM
"Life expectancy in the United States rose to an all-time high, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said today. But that's only half the story.


The country is behind about 30 others on this measure.


Though the United States has by far the highest level of health care spending per capita in the world, we have one of the lowest life expectancies among developed nations - lower than Italy, Spain and Cuba and just a smidgeon ahead of Chile, Costa Rica and Slovenia, according to the United Nations. China does almost as well as we do. Japan tops the list at 83 years. "


http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090819/sc_livescience/thetruthaboutrecordsettinguslifeexpectancy


Come on America, we can do better with LESS cost!