Velozzi Solo:

Velozzi homepage (http://www.velozzi.org/index.html)

Velozzi Solo page (http://www.velozzi.org/Solo.html)

Velozzi Solo news article (http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1022507_velozzi-launches-minicar-with-turbine-battery-charger)

This is the final / ultimate series hybrid configuration that I predict will win out - short range EV with "spinning ICE" range extender with flex fuel capability. Say what you will about the exterior, but they got the propulsion system right.

I didn't see price mentioned anywhere? Then again, if you have to ask...

I didn't see price mentioned anywhere? Then again, if you have to ask...

The website gives an email address that I was going to use to ask that very question, but I will just wait like everyone else. Microturbines cost $50,000 and batteries are $20,000, so I am guessing it will be $100,000 like the Tesla, but without the range anxiety.

I guess now we have to monitor the price decline for micro-turbines!!! :D:D

I'm feeling the need to watch the original Back To The Future!

Good Grief! Put up a website with mediocre 3D concept illustrations, tell people what they want to hear and then circulate your own press releases with wild promises for the future. There seems to be no end to these people out there trying to cash in on green VC. I have got to try it myself!

I think microturbines would be a great engine for the Volt. It would be a PERFECT way to switch to a bio fueled economy. Think about being able to use methanol (an easy conversion from NG) where available, or diesel/biodiesel, regular gas, E85 or E100, or moonshine made in your backyard! Besides that, turbine engines are quite efficient at constant optimal RPM, combine that with batteries giving the option to use electricity for the first 40-50 miles or so. This is exactly the direction GM engineers had in mind to go next with the EV1 back in 1999.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV1#EV1_series_hybrid

I think that eventually, maybe Gen 3 or something of the Volt, we will have a microturbine engine EREV.

I think GM thought it would be more cost effective at this point in time, and more familiar for people to be able to see the first EREV to have a regular run of the mill 1.4 Liter engine that they've used in other cars so people aren't worried about unproven technology and what not (Microsoft has done wonders for ruining consumer confidence in being early adopters).

I think microturbines would be a great engine for the Volt. It would be a PERFECT way to switch to a bio fueled economy. Think about being able to use methanol (an easy conversion from NG) where available, or diesel/biodiesel, regular gas, E85 or E100, or moonshine made in your backyard! Besides that, turbine engines are quite efficient at constant optimal RPM, combine that with batteries giving the option to use electricity for the first 40-50 miles or so. This is exactly the direction GM engineers had in mind to go next with the EV1 back in 1999.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV1#EV1_series_hybrid

I think that eventually, maybe Gen 3 or something of the Volt, we will have a microturbine engine EREV.

I think GM thought it would be more cost effective at this point in time, and more familiar for people to be able to see the first EREV to have a regular run of the mill 1.4 Liter engine that they've used in other cars so people aren't worried about unproven technology and what not (Microsoft has done wonders for ruining consumer confidence in being early adopters).

“ Think about being able to use methanol (an easy conversion from NG) where available… “ – omnimoesh

Why convert? You can burn NG directly… At any rate, microturbines are not significantly more efficient than the Atkinson cycle ICE’s. According to Capstone their 65KW microturbine generator consumes 230KW worth of fuel (about 28% efficiency). Of course if you can utilize the hot exhaust gas (or water heated by it) for propulsion of the vehicle, you can improve efficiency. Thermo-junction cells? Steam engine?

microturbines are not significantly more efficient than the Atkinson cycle ICE’s. According to Capstone their 65KW microturbine generator consumes 230KW worth of fuel (about 28% efficiency)

Exactly! Actually, 28% efficiency is in the range of a good turbo diesel engine, and that too can burn damn near anything. What turbines do well is power to weight, so if weight and packaging were big issues in E-Rev design, then maybe turbines are the way to go.

If the micro turbines were cost competitive, then I would say go for it, good idea, but to hope and wait for the price of turbines and batteries to come down is silly. One has to remember that the E-REV is simply a stepping stone to the ultimate goal of the pure EV. To get the widest penetration of electric drives into the market in the shortest amount of time, cost is most important, not total efficiency.

G35X,

It's nice that they can burn straight methane, but the reason to convert methane to methanol is because liquids are much easier to transport. You can keep all of the current fueling infrastructure we now use for gasoline, this is exactly what I mean when I say it's perfect for transforming our economy from oil to other fuel sources.

Dav8or,

I see what you're saying about efficiency. Supposedly the Gen 1 Volt will be getting 50 mpg in extended range mode using a stock non turbo charged engine. Going from 50 to 60 mpg is not worth the extra expense (especially for those 78% of people who don't drive much more than 40 miles a day) and certainly not worth the bizarre engineering and maintenance hassle that would be required (ie how many people know how to fix a microturbine engine?), but as far as price of microturbines, is there any intrinsic problem with a microturbine engine being the same price as a regular piston ICE? Or is it just a matter of economy of scale that gives piston engines a cost advantage?

As far as EREV being a transition technology to pure BEV. Well that's possibly the case. But until there are cost effective quick charging batteries with at least 200 mile range (preferably at least 400 mile range really) and thousands of quick charging stations, we are going to be reliant on liquid (probably fossil) fuels. How nice would it be to be able to run methane, butane, propane, whatever is cheapest if the engines cost the same?

Besides, I thought they already make turbine generators, those don't cost $20,000 do they?

Yes, efficiency claims are similar for several spinning configurations, but power to weight is king for mobile applications, which leave you with microturbines and Moller's unique rotary engine configurations. Next filter is cost, where microturbines are easily 5 - 10 times more expensive per unit than Moller's unique rotary engine configurations.

Here are Moller's latest updates:

Freedom Motors homepage (http://www.rotapower.info/)

Moller July 2009 Newsletter (http://www.moller.com/downloads/LFTP_02-2009.pdf)

but as far as price of microturbines, is there any intrinsic problem with a microturbine engine being the same price as a regular piston ICE? Or is it just a matter of economy of scale that gives piston engines a cost advantage?

The difference is exotic materials and much more demanding manufacturing tolerances. The turbine blades have to be able to withstand incredible temperatures and pressures while at the same time be in perfect balance while spinning at 50,000 rpm. Economy of scale would help, as would new, unknown manufacturing techniques to make parts faster and cheaper with equal quality.

Problems with turbines:

Super heated exhaust with lots of thrust to dissipate.
High cost.
Higher level of repair technicians required.
Noise.
Strict starting procedure. One hot start and you have ruined the engine.
Difficult to control emissions.

Advantages with turbines:

High power to weight ratio.
Compact size. (not including the exhaust baffling needed in an automotive application)
High thrust exhaust. (worthless in a car)

Here are Moller's latest updates:

Freedom Motors homepage (http://www.rotapower.info/)

Moller July 2009 Newsletter (http://www.moller.com/downloads/LFTP_02-2009.pdf)

Man! We've got you cheerleading for Moller and Texas for PBP. I've got to latch on to something too to keep up. However, it's too tough to go with ESSTOR, who else can I get... ? Maybe that guy Rolf with his crystal batteries, or that other guy with the orbital engines. I think I'll go with the Eaton hydraulic drive system for the UPS trucks, that looks like a winner to me.

By the way, somebody has to tell Moller that the practical flying car has been invented and he can give up now. Here is a link to the only practical flying car I have ever seen:

Maverick (http://itecusa.org/ifly_maverick.html)

Watch the videos.

Dav8or,

I am also a cheerleader for hydraulic hybrids as well as air piston and air rotary engines by MDI and Engineair respectively. Feel free to get behind any and all of them.

Super heated exhaust with lots of thrust to dissipate.
Problem? I don't think so! Put it out the rear to help drive the vehicle. The heated exhaust will encourage people not to tailgate. ;)