Today is a milestone day for the EV. A production quality swap-station demonstration by Better Place. It was held in Yokohama, Japan and afterwards it makes one think why this was never done before.

The cycle time is approximately 1 minute, which is faster than filling up your soon-to-be-obsolete petroleum powered car (OK, not so soon). An interesting bit of information is that there only needs to be about 10 station battery bays (for each model of battery pack) because the current A123 batteries charge in only 20 - 25 minutes! Heck, that's around 100 miles of range. Folks, we are closer to quick-charge than we realize.

After watching this I'm even wondering if we even need quick-charge stations. The swap is so simple and quick it might be far easier and safer to simply swap out even a quick-charge battery, have it moved to the quick charge port to be safely charged and cooled. Much better for Grandma and the kids. If it explodes it can be contained underground.

Doing this you could actually hold on to your own battery or swap out a different one. Thus, I now feel, after watching how fast and easy the swap was, that Better Place figured out not only a fantastic transition model but one that can be extended right up and beyond quick-charge batteries without major modification. Brilliant!

Anyway, you can watch the podcast here (definately a must see video):

www.betterplace.com


Note: The Japanese seemed to like it. Shai was very respectful and understood their culture very well. If the Japanese jump on this it might just be game-over for our automotive industry.

P.S. darn, I wish I thought of this idea!

Cool video, here's a direct link.

http://www.betterplace.com/company/video-detail/better-place-battery-switch-technology-demonstration

The main problem with battery swap vs. quick charge in my mind is that any old mom and pop gas station can probably afford to get a metered quick charge cable installed without any need for investing a lot, they wouldn't need any extra land, they wouldn't even need to worry about changing their business model, and as gas becomes less used, and electricity more used, they can change their gas pumps for electric quick chargers.

Heck, if I wanted to, I could probably buy some 2,000 square feet of land around town somewhere or along the freeway and get some high throughput charging lines connected straight to the power lines and charge people $3 to recharge their batteries at my "Electric Station". And it would be so fool proof that you wouldn't even need people manning the station. In fact, I would probably not need my own land, I would probably just partner with grocery stores, Wal Mart or McDonald's or whoever had a few extra parking spaces that would love to have the attraction of green "electric stations" on their premises and the extra customers that would have nothing better to do for 15-20 minutes while their car gets charged up than buy food or something. There would of course then be stores that would install their own, much like how Costco, Safeway, Wal Mart are all selling their own gas. It would be easy. Anybody could do it. And I suspect people will do it when EVs become more prolific and there is a market for it. I bet stores like Safeway and Costco would offer free recharges to customers who buy $50 worth or merchandise, using a system kind of like validating parking or something. It will catch on like wild fire as businesses will be looking for easy ways like this to increase customer base. Pretty soon when people see these electric stations becoming main stream, they hear their friends who are buying BEVs that are paying the same or less that an ICE car, and their fuel bill is about 1/10th of what they used to pay in gas and the maintenance costs is practically non existent...well, you do the math.

A swap station like that shown in the video would easily cost, what 100 times as much? Take up a ton of room, require a lot of maintenance, take decades to become prolific enough to rival the ubiquity of gas stations. It would just further the illusion that "EVs are impractical and always will be".

On a side not. I think that a cheap and ubiquitous charging infrastructure is really the key to all of this. Even more than batteries.

The battery longevity factor is probably going to be a non issue before too long anyway. Let's say they never make batteries that last longer than 10 years, the current mandatory warranty for automakers and the expected longevity of the Volt's battery. Will that even matter? Here is a list of reasons why it won't.

1. How much does the average person now pay in car maintenance costs? My brother in law's 5 year old Dodge Caravan just had the fuel pump go out in it. It cost him $1,000 to get diagnosed and replaced. A month ago he had the radiator in his Honda CRV go out because his wife forgot to maintain the anti freeze at the proper level, that cost $1,000 to replace. Every year you're supposed to replace the air filter and oil twice in your car and replace the fuel filter once. That can easily cost $100/year right there. After 10 years you are talking already up to $1,000. Every 10 years I am supposed to replace the timing belt in my car that costs $1,500. Transmissions usually last about 10-15 years. That'll easily run you $2,000+. Mine was $2,500 after 108,000 miles. I also have recently had to replace the serpentine belt, the alternator etc. etc., I had to flush the radiator, and replace the thermostat and I still haven't figured out why my car is over heating I think I've blown a valve or something, I have to get the fuel injectors cleaned, I have to get it smogged, I have to replace the O2 sensor, possibly catalytic converter, my exhaust system is starting to fall apart...on and on and on, and those are just the common issues, in reality there are other random things that can go out at any given time, like the water pump, power steering pump, oil pump, spark plug wires. The main reasons why cars depreciate is because people are concerned with having to deal with all of those maintenance issues as cars age, they're afraid of getting a lemon. What's nice about EVs is that you'll be able to see exactly how much charge the battery can hold based on self diagnostic meters that will probably be built in, or if you were buying it from a friend, you could drive it and find out how long it actually takes for the battery to run down. You know exactly what you're buying. You can't really say that when you buy a used car, you don't know if the transmission will go out right when you drive it home. I actually had that happen to me. I bought my car in Chicago and the transmission worked fine right up until I got home, then the 3rd gear shift started hesitating and pretty soon I was buying a new transmission.

Do you see where I'm going? The cost of ownership of an ICE vehicle is simply always going to be ridiculous. EVs will fix that issue. Even if it costs $5-6,000 in 10 years to replace the battery, you're still money ahead, especially as the resale value of EVs will be excellent.

2. Fuel savings (especially when gas prices go back up) will also help offset the cost of replacing the battery. You might be spending $6,000 after 10 years of owning the car, but you saved $1-2,000 a year in gas

3. Most importantly. People will want to upgrade their batteries anyway. Do you think in 10 years the batteries we have in our EVs today will even hold a candle to what will be available in 2020-2025? It's like, do you hear people complaining when their 10 year old computer stops working? They don't care, they need an excuse to upgrade anyway. The electric motor has changed very little in the last 100+ years since Faraday invented it. I don't think in 10 years it will have changed very much, therefore the only thing you'll really need to upgrade is the battery.

Here is a very detailed video showing the latching mechanism, the size and shape of the battery packs, etc:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/

Yeah, some will want to own their battery pack but I'm fine with knowing that I will pay the equivalent of $2 a gallon of gas for the next 10 years no matter what happens with oil. I'm more than fine with that, even if gas goes down to $1 because OPEC tries to flood the market to kill EV adoption. That reduced risk is a very valuable thing, as many CFOs will tell you.

Since battery technology is so new, I'm not too confident about them lasting 10 years at full capacity. They might only have 70 percent by then. Maybe 60 percent. While BP can use those batteries in stationary storage applications, normal battery pack owners are stuck with the reduced performance.

Additionally, the battery is by far the weakest link in the whole car. If you don't count the battery, the reliability and maintainability is several orders of magnitude better than today’s ICE based cars. Electric motors only have one moving part! Thus, BP can have the battery, I’ll take the proven assets. My confidence that I can sell my EV 10 years from now (if I don't have to worry about the battery) grows by leaps and bounds. Why after 500,000 miles it might only need a paint job and some new tires to be good for another 500,000 miles. Now that's value. What about buying a used rental EV? I would never do that with a ICE and automatic transmission based car. With an EV I would enjoy the lower price. These are all factors to consider.

excellent post Texas, and dont forget that your brakes may last for the life of the car in a BEV with regen brakes... an you never have to deal with smog checks again.

I guess it kind of depends on how much the battery lease is going to cost.

Obviously I don't know any real prices for any of that, but I can only imagine that once you pay for installation and maintenance of all that swapping infrastructure, plus the overhead personnel costs associated with BP, people keeping track of the leases etc., and any other unforeseeable (for me) expenses that would be incurred along the way, then of course they would be graciously paying for your electricity that you deplete from the battery, by the time you end up adding the cost of replacing the batteries (granted BP could sell them to utility companies for stationary use, but so could anyone who owns their own battery).

It's just like anything you lease. Is it ever cheaper to lease than to own for the same period of time and then sell? Answer is no, because if it were, the leaser wouldn't do it because they wouldn't be making any money on the deal. Leasing is pretty much only useful for businesses because of the simplicity of not having to deal with selling all of the fleet cars at the end of their 3 year cycle or whatever, and also because the rules of accounting somehow work better around leasing (it's been a while since I took any accounting classes, so I can't remember the details).

With all of those extra costs of handling the battery, and the extra people with their hands in the pie trying to get rich, I am skeptical if the price of leasing batteries is going to be competitive with quick charging. Quick charging can be easily handled by the private sector, whereas the massive investment needed to build hundreds of thousands of these swap stations would definitely require a lot of tax dollars (which at this point are about half of what they were a year ago and there is not a lot of extra to go around).

I really dont want to buy any of the current generation of batteries, leasing is ok.. I may change my mind in 10 years, probably for sure in 20 years..

Trading oil dependence for PBP dependence? No, thanks. Trading EV reliability (Ever have to shake or bang a flashlight to get it to go?) for something less? No, thanks. Helping one company retard development and advancement (VHS anyone?) of EV technology? No, thanks. Trading a reliable source of energy for one (@#$%! I got a bad pack! or Sorry, we don't have any fully charged packs right now. Check back later.) that is questionable? No, thanks.

Nope. Even if by the wildest chance, PBP comes to America, I'm not getting one of their cars/leases. Just what I need. All the fun times I've had with my cell phone company applied to my transportation needs. The only EV I will buy is one where I own the car, I own the battery and I can charge it off the wall. E-REV solves range anxiety, so battery swap not needed.

Battery swap model suits Japanese market better because there is no place to charge cars; Japanese houses don't have garage to plug your car in and most street park.

In the US, most Volt buyers would be suburban liberal tree-huggers, so they will plug their Volts overnight.

Yeah, some will want to own their battery pack but I'm fine with knowing that I will pay the equivalent of $2 a gallon of gas for the next 10 years no matter what happens with oil.

Where did you get that number? My understanding was that it was closer to 40 cents / gallon equivalent for electricity at least off peak home power. Are you factoring in the proposed Cap and Trade tax or are you assuming the difference will be the lease cost of the replaceable batteries?

And here's another Q about Better Place:

What happens if you pull in for a replacement with a battery that still has say 50% of its range left because its convenient to do it now? Just like topping off a half full gas tank instead of waiting till its almost empty.

Do you get discounted for the remaining charge?

If so, it means they have to test your battery after replacement but before they charge you introducing a little more delay.

If not, its going to mean a lot of people waiting till the last minute to change batteries.

Nothing happens, the battery swap is a free benefit of the service.. it is a pay-per-mile plan that you sign up for. You are paying for the wear and tear on the battery pack and they measure that by miles driven. There are some rumors that if you choose a plan big enough you may also get the car at a reduced price or even free. Very similar to a cell phone plan.

http://www.betterplace.com/solution/charging

Charge spots

Plug-in virtually anywhere you go. Better Place’s vast regional network of charge spots will provide convenient, reliable opportunities to charge EVs

Better Place intends to deploy charge spots at private homes, workplaces and public locations such as parking lots and streets. As the vast majority of driving trips are shorter than the range of a fully-charged EV battery, Better Place anticipates that most subscribers will use charge spots as their primary method of recharging. At your home, a Better Place charge spot will provide safe, reliable, high-power charging using the Better Place network. On the street, in your work parking lot or at the shopping center, Better Place charge spots will be available to provide easy access to energy.

Battery switch stations

The Better Place battery switch stations are designed to allow drivers on a long trip to switch a depleted battery for one with a full charge, in less time than it takes to fill a tank with gasoline.




What happens if you pull in for a replacement with a battery that still has say 50% of its range left because its convenient to do it now?

Better Place intends to deploy charge spots at private homes, workplaces and public locations such as parking lots and streets.
I can handle public locations, but at the workplace I expect to receive EV charging as a perk. Next, why on Earth would I want a BP charging station at my home? Unless they somehow give me a better deal than I could get by just plugging into my own AC receptacle, this doesn't make sense. Sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

Not to worry, soon it will be Project Better Place(d in Receivership) :p

(Ever have to shake or bang a flashlight to get it to go?)You must be young... :) As a matter of fact, yes, I have had to shake or bang a flashlight to get it to go. :D

Fishmahn.

Where did you get that number? My understanding was that it was closer to 40 cents / gallon equivalent for electricity at least off peak home power. Are you factoring in the proposed Cap and Trade tax or are you assuming the difference will be the lease cost of the replaceable batteries?Profit for the entity providing the charge spot? Just a thought.

Fishmahn

Where did you get that number? My understanding was that it was closer to 40 cents / gallon equivalent for electricity at least off peak home power. Are you factoring in the proposed Cap and Trade tax or are you assuming the difference will be the lease cost of the replaceable batteries?





It's the price BP said the model makes sense. When gas is on average more than $5 in Europe and many parts of the world (Japan), it makes very good economics sense. If gas stays at $2 per gallon in America not even the Volt looks good. If you think gas will be $2 per gallon for the next 10 years then it’s best to just get an SUV and enjoy. That’s unbelievably cheap energy and shows our government (elected by your fellow citizens) doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the environment.

Don't forget that the BP price can remain constant for the life of your car. The price in fact will decrease as the EV, renewable energy and battery technologies move down the cost curve. Oil will always cost more to produce as we have to go further and dig deeper to get to it.

Some people will like to be able to plug in anywhere (including their own PV panels on their house - I'm one of them!). However, most people just like convenience, simplicity, great service, etc. That's why I think the BP model will be a hit.

Yes, we can get our own Volts that get 40 miles of EV range but we also get an untested battery technology that we are stuck with, are completely tied to the existing petroleum infrastructure with no way of breaking free and have to carry all of that extra weight and complication around for that privilege.

What happens when the BP infrastructure exists? The cost of your car ownership will be the same or less than your current ride, you have a GPS system that tells you where the next charge point or swap station is (and you may even be able to communicate with that system), you are running completely on renewable energy like solar or wind (guaranteed), you don't have to worry about what Saudi Arabia or OPEC does because your cost will not change for the life of your vehicle, you don't have to worry about bad battery technology not lasting for 10 years, you can update to the newest and latest technology (EEscam-like, nanowire, nanofilm, etc.) in less than 60 seconds, don't have to worry about battery recycling or what to do with your semi-depleted old battery, etc.

It's true that you can fill up your EV for less than a $1 from a standard garage outlet. People have been able to do that for decades and it has not had any effect on adoption. A customer product should have convenience, be easy to understand and do the job. Look at Microsoft. It's not the best, safest, fastest, smallest OS on the market yet it dominates. Linux is free! You can download software that runs on Linux for free! Why would people even choose anything different? Because Microsoft is shiny, bright, well marketed, easy to use, standard, you can buy it today in any store, people know how to fix it, etc.

I must confess, I am that kind of person that does want to mess with my EV and do my own charging from my solar panels. I want to be off the grid and enjoy working toward that goal. I do realize however that most people don't. Just from talking to them they don't even understand basic science or engineering. They just want something that works and they don't have to worry about it or even open the hood. That's the way it is. BP has a model that is perfect for a large portion of the population - convenient transportation that is clean, quiet, not limited in range, easy to understand, environmentally cool, predictable and inexpensive cost per mile and has payment plans that even a teenager can afford. Try that with a Volt at $40,000 a pop.

I'm bullish on BP but also want a Volt! lol. I not only want a Volt but want a pure EV that I can tinker with and customize. I do realize that I do not represent the core market. People want to get from point A to point B looking the best. I want to hack the Volt's computer. Yeah, real interesting topic at parties. lol

Yes, we can get our own Volts that get 40 miles of EV range but we also get an untested battery technology that we are stuck with, are completely tied to the existing petroleum infrastructure with no way of breaking free and have to carry all of that extra weight and complication around for that privilege.


First, we are not tied to petroleum, we could use renewable hydrocarbons fuels. Second, if you have an EV with 200 mile range, and are driving 40 miles a day, then you are also carrying around at least as much, probably more, extra weight as you would due to the generator/fuel in the Volt and considerably more upfront cost.

I do agree that the generator in the E-REV design constitutes much more complexity, and with the complexity the consequent maintenance/reliability issues. To me the big upside of EVs, is the simplicity/reliability. The downsides are the underutilized, expensive battery capacity and the inability to drive long distances without considerable investment in new infrastructure.

And here's another Q about Better Place:

What happens if you pull in for a replacement with a battery that still has say 50% of its range left because its convenient to do it now? Just like topping off a half full gas tank instead of waiting till its almost empty.

Do you get discounted for the remaining charge?

If so, it means they have to test your battery after replacement but before they charge you introducing a little more delay.

If not, its going to mean a lot of people waiting till the last minute to change batteries.

This is definitely an issue. How many people do you know who wait until they have 1/3rd of a gallon (approx. 10 miles) to refuel. The average person would try to refuel with about 1/4th of a tank left I would imagine, or about 100 miles. That means that the average fully charged BP battery only has the minimum range at which people feel comfortable waiting to refuel their cars.

For this reason, for EVs to have a snowball's chance in hell, we need to have recharge spots almost everywhere, like every parking lot, every store, every garage.

The downsides are the underutilized, expensive battery capacity and the inability to drive long distances without considerable investment in new infrastructure.




Shai has you covered. He already talked about different size (capacity) battery packs. Let's say they have thee standard sizes - 50 miles, 100 miles, 250 miles (for example).

If you watched the video they explained that they can have many different battery form factors, as long as it has a flat bottom that fits the exchange station platform (basically a standard skid plate).

I know the more standards they carry the more bays they need to have so I'm guessing it will come down to a few standard sizes (C, AA, AAA - like) They will need 10 bays for each standard for continuous operation. Shai gave the volume numbers for that in the video - less than the volume of standard gasoline storage tanks.

That way you can tailor the battery you carry to your daily routine. If you are going out to Grandma’s house you push a button on your consol to swap in the 250 mile monster (at a small premium - more inefficient because of the weight) and simply swap out every couple of hours on the highway (only takes a minute and you don't even have to get out of the car!).

When you are tooling around town you can get the smaller and lighter 50 mile pack. If you run low, hit the swap station or go have lunch and plug in to a charge point.

There, does that work for you? I’m guessing the only thing that does work for you is to see it working for ten years in the U.S. without one failure or criticism and every driver chooses the BP way. Thing is, there are many possibilities with this basic concept. Different countries might have different configurations to suit different customer preferences.

Fundamentally, it's a very sound concept (IMO) that completely rips the petroleum infrastructure Band-Aid. It's definitely the middle finger option. Is it cheap and easy to transition? No. It will cost an aircraft carrier full of capital and take a long time (to fully cover the U.S.). That’s why the U.S. will do a wait and see. Good thing California and Canada will provide that full-scale pilot project data. Our Volts and hybrids will probably be just fine for a while, if we can get enough of them in the hands of customers (very high up-front cost). I sure will be jealous of any country that goes “all in” and achieves a successful electrified transportation infrastructure that is immune to fossil fuel issues.

This debate will rage on for the next several years. There will be huge groups of supporters on both camps. Israel, Australia and Canada are going to be the big litmus test. If it works well there and in Australia and Canada (talk about low density of people per mile of road and working in nasty weather conditions) then it can work anywhere. Countdown to answers: Three years.

Note: I would like to hear from BP about how they will price differentiate the per mile charge. It would not be a good motivator if people are charged the same amount to drive a Hummer sized vehicle compared to a Geo-Metro sized vehicle. Same for the size of the battery pack they wish to lug around. I’m guessing at first it will be the same, to reduce customer confusion. Then when things start to get ridiculous (EV Hummers) they will have to use incentives to use less mass and be more efficient. Otherwise we will all be driving EV campers. ;)

Nothing happens, the battery swap is a free benefit of the service.. it is a pay-per-mile plan that you sign up for. You are paying for the wear and tear on the battery pack and they measure that by miles driven. There are some rumors that if you choose a plan big enough you may also get the car at a reduced price or even free. Very similar to a cell phone plan.


Hmmm.... Does that mean there is no ability or benefit from home charging? I mean, if you're getting basically a 'free' recharge and then paying by the mile, charging up at home actually costs you more money. Kind of an odd choice. With only a 100 mile range, I would be pretty much replacing my battery daily due to my 58 mile commute.

If it was a Plug-In instead, I would simply be recharging overnight at home.

Hmmm.... Does that mean there is no ability or benefit from home charging? I mean, if you're getting basically a 'free' recharge and then paying by the mile, charging up at home actually costs you more money. Kind of an odd choice. With only a 100 mile range, I would be pretty much replacing my battery daily due to my 58 mile commute.

If it was a Plug-In instead, I would simply be recharging overnight at home.




LampCord, I think you might be missing the point. You are NOT paying for electricity. You are paying for miles. Put another way, you are paying bit-by-bit for the battery. Instead of paying $40,000 for an EV with an included A123 battery pack you are paying $20,000.

Instead of paying X for gas every week you are paying around $2 per gallon equivalent for your electric driving. When you plug in at your garage you are doing that because it's very convenient and you wake up with 120 miles of range and don't have to stop at the gas station. Your garage IS your own personal gas station with no waiting.

BP will work it out that if you are paying at your home and thus the BP charger is connected to your meter and you are getting charged by your utility then they will deduct that from your bill. You will pay a constant mile charge, no matter where you charge. You are paying the battery depreciation and network operating costs. It will be cheaper than your gasoline driving today (as long as the price of gas is $2 per gallon and above).

BP feels that if you go into a swap-station then it's an inconvenience. Think about it, do you want to go to the gas station? I would rather not. If I could just plug in at home and work then I would be a happy camper. Interviews with EV owners show that they are very happy with plugging in.

Anyway, I think you are just going to have to wait and see it all working to be convinced. Just remember, even with the expensive EV batteries we have today the EV is so efficient compared to an ICE that the overall operating cost is less. Those battery costs are only going lower while petroleum costs are only going higher. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to choose the better trend.

LampCord, I think you might be missing the point. You are NOT paying for electricity. You are paying for miles. Put another way, you are paying bit-by-bit for the battery. Instead of paying $40,000 for an EV with an included A123 battery pack you are paying $20,000.

Instead of paying X for gas every week you are paying around $2 per gallon equivalent for your electric driving. When you plug in at your garage you are doing that because it's very convenient and you wake up with 120 miles of range and don't have to stop at the gas station. Your garage IS your own personal gas station with no waiting.

BP will work it out that if you are paying at your home and thus the BP charger is connected to your meter and you are getting charged by your utility then they will deduct that from your bill. You will pay a constant mile charge, no matter where you charge. You are paying the battery depreciation and network operating costs. It will be cheaper than your gasoline driving today (as long as the price of gas is $2 per gallon and above).

BP feels that if you go into a swap-station then it's an inconvenience. Think about it, do you want to go to the gas station? I would rather not. If I could just plug in at home and work then I would be a happy camper. Interviews with EV owners show that they are very happy with plugging in.

Anyway, I think you are just going to have to wait and see it all working to be convinced. Just remember, even with the expensive EV batteries we have today the EV is so efficient compared to an ICE that the overall operating cost is less. Those battery costs are only going lower while petroleum costs are only going higher. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to choose the better trend.

OK, its finally sunk in...

I guess that is a pretty good deal. If the final cost of leasing the battery and electricity per mile is the same as current gas prices and doing it this way means the rest of the car costs something reasonable like $20k instead of $40k for the Volt, I could see this being a very effective system.

And as everyone here knows, the REST of the car should be mostly maintenance free. Just basic wear parts like brakes and tires.

I could definitely see this as a viable option at least as a commuter car. And if they have 8 stall recharging / swapping stations up and down the hiway, it would even make sense for long drives.

One thing I like about the swapping station vs the gas pump:

Where I live, we get morons who pull up to a pump, fill their car, then go inside and browse around for 10 minutes while their car is still parked in front of the pump depriving other customers of that stall. You wouldn't be able to do that at a swapping station. You're in and out of the way in less than a minute.

I wonder if anyone has thought about merging these stations with traffic lights?

After all, you often sit at a light for up to 3 minutes. That's more than enough time to swap!

LampCord, I think you might be missing the point. You are NOT paying for electricity. You are paying for miles. Put another way, you are paying bit-by-bit for the battery. Instead of paying $40,000 for an EV with an included A123 battery pack you are paying $20,000.

Instead of paying X for gas every week you are paying around $2 per gallon equivalent for your electric driving. When you plug in at your garage you are doing that because it's very convenient and you wake up with 120 miles of range and don't have to stop at the gas station. Your garage IS your own personal gas station with no waiting.

BP will work it out that if you are paying at your home and thus the BP charger is connected to your meter and you are getting charged by your utility then they will deduct that from your bill. You will pay a constant mile charge, no matter where you charge. You are paying the battery depreciation and network operating costs. It will be cheaper than your gasoline driving today (as long as the price of gas is $2 per gallon and above).

BP feels that if you go into a swap-station then it's an inconvenience. Think about it, do you want to go to the gas station? I would rather not. If I could just plug in at home and work then I would be a happy camper. Interviews with EV owners show that they are very happy with plugging in.

Anyway, I think you are just going to have to wait and see it all working to be convinced. Just remember, even with the expensive EV batteries we have today the EV is so efficient compared to an ICE that the overall operating cost is less. Those battery costs are only going lower while petroleum costs are only going higher. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to choose the better trend.

So, basically, you are paying BP for the battery plus system administration costs plus their profit margin plus the cost of the electricity that goes in the battery. I'm pretty sure I'd rather buy my own battery since it will be cheaper. If I need to travel far I can rent a car, take the train, plane ....whatever.

PBP sounds like a great idea but I don't believe it will be successful in certain areas of the USA.

The video is excellent showing how the system should work. It reminds of the EPA MPG claims on new vehicles. In the controlled EPA environment the new vehicle receives high MPG, but once you drive the vehicle in the real highway conditions you would never achieve EPA MPG.

I could vision PBP have severe problems in the Northeast. In the winter the battery replacement system would have to be ice, snow, and salt proof. On a cold icy day when the temp is below 32degF., 0deg.C., the battery case will not open up due to ice. Is the PBP system going to incorporate a deicing system? Also the salt used on the roads to melt the ice will cause corrosion and connection problems on the battery and the swapping system.

Another potential problem with PBP is do they actually trust the driver to align the vehicle over the pit? I would not. You have lot of weekend drivers who do not know how to stay in their lane any yet expect them to stop at an exact location over the battery swap mechanism...it ain't gonna happen. Maybe they could have full service drive thru for those drivers, but then the cost will be increased.

This is just my two cents for driving the last 45 years and residing in the Northeast.

I could vision PBP have severe problems in the Northeast. In the winter the battery replacement system would have to be ice, snow, and salt proof. On a cold icy day when the temp is below 32degF., 0deg.C., the battery case will not open up due to ice. Is the PBP system going to incorporate a deicing system? Also the salt used on the roads to melt the ice will cause corrosion and connection problems on the battery and the swapping system.

I'm not a big believer in the battery swap either, but in the case of icing they should be OK. The reason why is because presumably you drive the car to the station, which means the battery pack will be warm, well above freezing. When batteries discharge, they also release heat. It's one of their inefficiencies. This natural heating should melt all the ice by the time you get to the station. Corrosion and dirt are another matter.

DaV8or,
I don't believe the heat from the battery would be sufficient to melt the ice and icicles under the vehicle.
Example, this year we had many below freezing days in the Northeast. What was unbelievable to me was there was icicles hanging on the sides of my Equinox in the morning...by the end of the day when I arrived home the icicles were still hanging on the vehicle. The heat from the exhaust system did not melt the icicles. I attempted to kick some of the icicles with my foot, let's say my foot was damaged. I learned my lesson, don't mess with icicles:).
BTW-I don't believe any heat would help in those battery swap stations even if they close the doors. If the garage doors need to open and close every 2 minutes for the next vehicle, the heat would be wasted right out the entrance and exit doors. I would not be happy with my heating bill if I was PBP.

Again, what I have stated would only create a dilemma during the winter months.

OK, its finally sunk in...

I guess that is a pretty good deal. If the final cost of leasing the battery and electricity per mile is the same as current gas prices and doing it this way means the rest of the car costs something reasonable like $20k instead of $40k for the Volt, I could see this being a very effective system.

And as everyone here knows, the REST of the car should be mostly maintenance free. Just basic wear parts like brakes and tires.

I could definitely see this as a viable option at least as a commuter car. And if they have 8 stall recharging / swapping stations up and down the hiway, it would even make sense for long drives.

One thing I like about the swapping station vs the gas pump:

Where I live, we get morons who pull up to a pump, fill their car, then go inside and browse around for 10 minutes while their car is still parked in front of the pump depriving other customers of that stall. You wouldn't be able to do that at a swapping station. You're in and out of the way in less than a minute.

I wonder if anyone has thought about merging these stations with traffic lights?

After all, you often sit at a light for up to 3 minutes. That's more than enough time to swap!





That a good idea! I just had this future flash where people stop at a traffic light and a few battery pack robots scamper to the cars and perform a swap-out. The robots then dart back to their stations before the light changes. Freaky image. ;)

If you think about it, the cars in the future are most likely going to be connected to the Internet full-time. Let’s say the car reports to BP that the battery pack is getting very low (or there is a problem) and it will not be able to reach the next swap-station. The driver is not even aware of the problem. BP and your car schedule a swap at the next light and prepare everything in advance. The car notifies the driver with a small message, “Mr. Davis, a battery swap at the next traffic light has been scheduled. Is that acceptable?”. The driver gives the go-ahead and at the next light the robot dance begins. Man, that would make a cool movie scene.

Obviously it is cheaper to buy the battery yourself, just like leasing or buying a car.. but for the next few years (5-10 years) it would be better to lease the batteries (or use BP) and buy the car.. at least until we know that batteries have gone thru a couple of design cycles and proven themselves.


So, basically, you are paying BP for the battery plus system administration costs plus their profit margin plus the cost of the electricity that goes in the battery. I'm pretty sure I'd rather buy my own battery since it will be cheaper. If I need to travel far I can rent a car, take the train, plane ....whatever.

In states with severe winters, like Utah (a state I lived in for 2 winters), you have thick ice on the side of your car all the time, and it's true, a gas engine is far less efficient (creates far more heat) than a battery. Although I can only speculate what the cost will be, I have a feeling that leasing a battery will be more expensive than owning a battery. GM is offering 10 years warranty on the Volt. Like I've said before, BP simply will never charge you (to lease it) less than owning it would cost you anyway. If they did, they would be losing money, and therefore have no interest in doing it in the first place.

assuming the battery costs $10k, has a 10 year warranty and interest rate is 4%, with a 36 month lease then the monthly lease payment on the battery is $140.. and you will pay $5040 total for that 36 month lease.


Although I can only speculate what the cost will be, I have a feeling that leasing a battery will be more expensive than owning a battery.

I'm surprised to hear that someone would come to the conclusion that buying the battery (at this stage of battery development) would be cheaper than leasing it. Perhaps we need to look at the big picture.

The cost of the asset (from cradle to grave):

1) There are the production costs. If you have small volumes the cost is more. BP should have far more volumes per standard battery pack than all the different custom battery packs for each car model. How many cars are going to use the Volt battery pack, for example?

2) There are the maintenance costs. If a cell goes bad in your volt they have to pull out the whole pack, make the fixes (if they have the parts) and bolt it back in. This takes time and labor and it inconvenient for the customer. BP can fix the battery pack at their leisure because it’s in the battery bay and the customer is happily on their way with a different, fully charged and checked battery pack.

3) There is a cost if the battery does not perform up to task for the length of the ownership. Let's say your battery pack falls below 85% rated at 7 years in. Who pays for that? GM. They have to put that into the purchase price of the car. As you said, someone has to pay. It's the car owner eventually.

4) There has to be some form a recycling operation. The bigger the operation the more cost effective it is.

5) Is there a market for partially used batteries? Let's say the cell is not at 85% and thus cannot give good performance in the EV. Can it be used for stationary grid backup? If so, the bigger the operation the more cost effective it will be.


Thus, because BP will own the battery they will not only have a huge market with standardized battery packs but can get to them in 60 seconds with no labor (swap-out station), can have a huge recycling and stationary electrical energy storage operations that can be very cost effective. Perhaps they collect sub-standard packs, at the most cost effective schedules and send them to a factory to be reconditioned very cost effectively.

BP could have a battery bay on wheels that can transfer to and from the swap-out stations very easily with no human labor. Imagine how the GM dealership operation would compare (bolt out, jack up, move, load on a pallet, load on a truck using a fork lift, etc.). Now imagine the BP system (special truck pulls into the swap-out station, transfers 4 good battery packs into the station and 3 packs that need repairs out, goes to the next station until ready to return to the reconditioning center with a full load of batteries).

The owner of the BP vehicle does not even know or care about the state of the battery pack, other than the charge level. All they know is that they get to their destination. If the battery is bad, it will be caught during the communication between the swap-station or at the charge-point. Everything can be handled without the driver being inconvenienced.

Now, do you think the vast majority of EV owners want to deal with finding a market for their used or sub-standard battery? Do they want to deal with recycling? Does a small GM shop want to deal with the problem? Are they trained? Will it be efficient?

Thus, If we look at the whole picture and take into account that the battery is far less reliable than an ICE car but the EV platform without the battery is the most reliable of all, you can start to see the economies of scale when dealing with new battery technology.

The BP owner can get upgrades and not even know it! They get their miles and slowly their cars will get lighter or they can go further (not less capacity) as BP upgrades their technology at a pace that is best for their financials. All in all, not having to deal with the battery is not only cheaper but far more convenient.

The more I think about the swap-out idea and the implications for cost, maintenance and customer convenience the more I like it.

DaV8or,
I don't believe the heat from the battery would be sufficient to melt the ice and icicles under the vehicle.
Example, this year we had many below freezing days in the Northeast. What was unbelievable to me was there was icicles hanging on the sides of my Equinox in the morning...by the end of the day when I arrived home the icicles were still hanging on the vehicle. The heat from the exhaust system did not melt the icicles. I attempted to kick some of the icicles with my foot, let's say my foot was damaged. I learned my lesson, don't mess with icicles:).
BTW-I don't believe any heat would help in those battery swap stations even if they close the doors. If the garage doors need to open and close every 2 minutes for the next vehicle, the heat would be wasted right out the entrance and exit doors. I would not be happy with my heating bill if I was PBP.

Again, what I have stated would only create a dilemma during the winter months.

I bet your exhaust system had no ice on it though. I never claimed the battery would deice the whole car, and I think it's a stretch to expect the exhaust system to either.

My brother in law recently moved to Connecticut and his first winter there, they had one of those awful ice storms. He came out in the morning to find his car had a thick sheet of ice on the top. Well, he was able chip away enough on the windshield so he could see and he drove off. Being that is was freezing out, he turned the heater on in the car. Several miles down the road, the huge sheet of ice came flying off the roof, taking the glass in his Moon Roof with it and almost caused an accident.

The point is, the heating of the cabin air to probably around 75 degrees uniformly heated the metal on the roof to just above 32 degrees and created a thin liquid layer between the ice and metal, allowing the ice to slide right off. The battery pack will heat uniformly too and it only needs to get just above 32 degrees. I believe this will be sufficient to remove most of the ice from the pack itself and it's attach bolts. Any residual ice will break free when they lower a 400-500lb battery pack down. The ice can be dealt with.

Again though, I am not a supporter of battery swapping stations or PBP. I believe that letting one company dictate charging standards, having a monopoly on public charging and then getting people hooked on their product with artificially low lease rates is a bad idea. Also the battery swap station is a big investment with it's own set of complexities (ice being one of them) and will soon be obsolete. In short, a waste of money and resources.

. . . I am not a supporter of battery swapping stations or PBP. I believe that letting one company dictate charging standards, having a monopoly on public charging and then getting people hooked on their product with artificially low lease rates is a bad idea. Also the battery swap station is a big investment with it's own set of complexities (ice being one of them) and will soon be obsolete. In short, a waste of money and resources.

As long as Project Battery Place wastes private money and resources, I don't have a problem with it. It seems like a solution looking for a problem, and I don't see it working for me. However, as long as public resources are not used to support it, I won't stand in its way.

As long as Project Battery Place wastes private money and resources, I don't have a problem with it. It seems like a solution looking for a problem, and I don't see it working for me. However, as long as public resources are not used to support it, I won't stand in its way.

Well, that's the thing. What you see is them cozying up to various governments. I doubt very much that they don't expect a dime of money or some other favor from the tax payer. At the very least, I'm sure they want to have exclusive rights to charging stations within a municipality. Systems that will require a membership with them.

I agree, if they want to spend their own money and build whatever with no aid from government, just like gas station operators, then fine. I have no problem with it. What it appears more like though is an effort to lock in PBP as a monopolistic provider of electric vehicle power supply. They are laying the ground work now.

Think about it, they go around and secure exclusive rights to all public charging stations in your town, and all those charging stations will require a PBP membership and card to use. Then they flood the market with cheap leased batteries and cars that will require you to pay them even if you do charge at home or work, because you are being billed by the mile, not charge. For a time they operate at a total loss, but this is the necessary investment to reap huge profits in the future. People sign up because it's cheap and as battery costs come down, they keep those savings and the consumer pays the same. Within five years, PBP becomes the dominant battery standard and all other auto manufacturers are forced to start making PBP compliant cars. Soon, the consumer has little choice but to sign up. Now they're making money.

With near complete control of the market, battery innovation, quality and reliability go down. There just isn't a great incentive for PBP, who makes it's money off of you charging your battery frequently, to design better batteries. Competitors try to spring up, but without the public charging stations, they are forced to be second best. Eventually it looks kind of like Mac vs. PC. The non-PBP company's products work better and allow you some independence and a choice, but they cost a lot more and work in fewer places, so most people still chose PBP.

This is not the future I hope to see. Municipalities don't need PBP or anybody else. They can build their own charging infrastructure and servicing of those stations can be provided by private enterprises that bid on locations and only hold something like 5 year leases that need to be renewed. Companies compete to become the provider, much like gas stations do now. Auto companies and the aftermarket are free to build whatever battery they can think of. People can charge at home for just the cost of the electricity. They can charge for free at work as a company perk. Batteries get so good, that they only need charging once every two weeks. This is the future I want to see.

I bet your exhaust system had no ice on it though. I never claimed the battery would deice the whole car, and I think it's a stretch to expect the exhaust system to either.

The battery itself might not have ice on it (although I am sure it will get muddy over the months of use), however that's not the issue, all of the locking mechanisms on the edge of the vehicle may still get frozen, especially those who wake up in the morning after an ice storm and decide to get their battery swapped out on their way to work.

I'm gonna love it when I'm in line at the swap station and the guy in front of me gets his battery stuck and there's 3 people behind me.

Within five years, PBP becomes the dominant battery standard and all other auto manufacturers are forced to start making PBP compliant cars. Soon, the consumer has little choice but to sign up. Now they're making money.

With near complete control of the market, battery innovation, quality and reliability go down. There just isn't a great incentive for PBP, who makes it's money off of you charging your battery frequently, to design better batteries. Competitors try to spring up, but without the public charging stations, they are forced to be second best. Eventually it looks kind of like Mac vs. PC. The non-PBP company's products work better and allow you some independence and a choice, but they cost a lot more and work in fewer places, so most people still chose PBP.

On the bright side, I highly doubt BP will be able to get to every city, there's a lot of conservative states like Iowa and Nebraska that will not bite on this kind of thing. Besides that, we still have the majority of auto manufacturing and coincidentally battery research in Asia. It's the kind of thinking you're describing Dav8or that got the domestic auto manufacturers in the situation they are in. They thought they controlled the entire auto market, and people would always buy whatever they made because they had the corner on the market. If BP thinks they can do something similar with electric cars, they have another thing coming. The full fury of Asia's tech and manufacturing dominance is only about to come to full fury, especially in the EV and automotive grade battery arena. China is just now coming to the table. Companies like BYD are vowing to take over the world. Morons who think they can monopolize a lucrative industry and tell people what to buy and how much they're going to pay are really living in the old days.

1) It's an open network. They ask the government to keep it open. No monopoly. Like a mobile phone company with free roaming (that is how they describe it).

2) Car 2.0 will be plugged in most nights and can have the cabin just how you like it when you take off in the morning. Cars in cold climates have engine block heaters. Same thing to get the battery and cabin perfect for your trip. This can be timed or you can contact your vehicle some time interval before.

3) The battery pack will generate heat. This will be transferred to the battery pack skid plate (or the battery pack skid plate could have an electric blanket-like heating grid on the inside to pre-heat the plate and melt the snow prior to arriving at the station on a cold and snowy day).

4) The station could then have heat lamps and or hot water spray if needed.

5) The system is like a mobile phone company. The company cannot sell the phones before the network is fully functional. That is why BP wants to put in the infrastructure in first.

6) America is just too big and critical to be a first market for this (nationally). Thus, Israel, Denmark, California, Australia, Canada, Hawaii, etc. will act as pilot projects to flush out the concept. If there are major problems, the U.S. will not go forward. If it works great, we can hack it out then.

7) The concept is not "dumb" or "a waste of money". Even if it fails it will provide valuable answers to EV market questions. BP is fully funded for these initial projects. Americans do not need to be concerned that their tax dollars are being spent unwisely.

8) The infrastructure and test cars proving out the system are scheduled to be operating in Israel around the same time that the Volt is to hit showroom floors. We can then see the forest though the trees.

Americans do not need to be concerned that their tax dollars are being spent unwisely.
On the contrary, U.S. citizens must remain very concerned that their hard-earned tax dollars are being spent wisely. The government has a piss-poor record on this so far.

"will act as pilot projects to flush out the concept"

I suspect you are correct. LOL. I think the word you are looking for here is FLESH.

"will act as pilot projects to flush out the concept"

I suspect you are correct. LOL. I think the word you are looking for here is FLESH.





Mike, Thank you once again for your helpful spelling, grammar, and spell checker corrections. I'm glad you are making yourself useful.


BTW: I wish I could flush you out of this forum. Then again, it's nice to get grammar feedback.

Mike, Thank you once again for your helpful spelling, grammar, and spell checker corrections. I'm glad you are making yourself useful.


BTW: I wish I could flush you out of this forum. Then again, it's nice to get grammar feedback.


Grammar? It's called a butchered cliche.

Nope, Texas is right about this one. You could use either one depending on what exactly he was expecting BP to do, I believe the way he was intending in this case was "flush" because we are looking for ideas and practices that won't work when we implement them on the national scale, we are flushing them out. They might be doing some fleshing out as well though, making the thin demand for EVs more mainstream.

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/flesh.html

http://honesthypocrite.blogspot.com/2006/08/flesh-out-vs-flush-out.html

Nope, Texas is right about this one. You could use either one depending on what exactly he was expecting BP to do, I believe the way he was intending in this case was "flush" because we are looking for ideas and practices that won't work when we implement them on the national scale, we are flushing them out. They might be doing some fleshing out as well though, making the thin demand for EVs more mainstream.

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/flesh.html

http://honesthypocrite.blogspot.com/2006/08/flesh-out-vs-flush-out.html





omnimoeish, Don't ruin Mike's day. He has so little to hold on to. ;) He now enjoys his useless, short comments and correcting spelling and such. People need to feel needed.

Anyway, we all thought that this forum was just about EVs and energy. Nope! We even get to flush out any English problems we have.

Nope, Texas is right about this one. You could use either one depending on what exactly he was expecting BP to do, I believe the way he was intending in this case was "flush" because we are looking for ideas and practices that won't work when we implement them on the national scale, we are flushing them out. They might be doing some fleshing out as well though, making the thin demand for EVs more mainstream.

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/flesh.html

http://honesthypocrite.blogspot.com/2006/08/flesh-out-vs-flush-out.html



Being dissatisfied with the butcher's cut, omni decides to make mincemeat.

DaV8or,
I don't believe the heat from the battery would be sufficient to melt the ice and icicles under the vehicle.
Example, this year we had many below freezing days in the Northeast. What was unbelievable to me was there was icicles hanging on the sides of my Equinox in the morning...by the end of the day when I arrived home the icicles were still hanging on the vehicle. The heat from the exhaust system did not melt the icicles. I attempted to kick some of the icicles with my foot, let's say my foot was damaged. I learned my lesson, don't mess with icicles:).
Again, what I have stated would only create a dilemma during the winter months.



I bet your exhaust system had no ice on it though. I never claimed the battery would deice the whole car, and I think it's a stretch to expect the exhaust system to either.


I never stated my exhaust system had ice on it. The ice was on the sides at least 18 inches from the exhaust system.

The only thing I can state for fact is if there are several days of 10 deg. F. BPB will experience difficulties in separating the battery from the vehicle frame unless they incorporate a deicing system.

Wouldn't an easy way to deal with the icing problem be to have an under sprayer before the swap point like in automatic car washes?

Not a complete wash, just one or two runs underneath of high pressure hot water to clean and de-ice the battery right before the swap?

Just an idea...

Being dissatisfied with the butcher's cut, omni decides to make mincemeat.

I jus callz 'em lacks I seez 'em! :-)

I never stated my exhaust system had ice on it. The ice was on the sides at least 18 inches from the exhaust system.

The only thing I can state for fact is if there are several days of 10 deg. F. BPB will experience difficulties in separating the battery from the vehicle frame unless they incorporate a deicing system.
This is a mere technical problem with numerous possible solutions. More important to discuss is if the Battery Place truly "brings something to the party", and if their business model is sound.

Texas, the battery variety does reduce the weight burden in principle, but doesn't solve the underutilized battery issue, and adds complexity (my guess would be that people would just carry around the extra battery weight "just in case" anyway, getting back to the weight issue). In this scenario you need to have multiple packs per car which just adds to the underutilized battery issue. One could argue that the unused batteries could be used for load-leveling on the grid, but you'd need some good battery-use forecasting to make sure the batteries were charged when your customers need them. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. My bet is on E-REV for the long term, but the fully renewable fuel and battery-swap-EV options are still long-shots (in my opinion).