1. Expensive
2. Late to the market
3. Stiff competition
4. Cheap gasoline
5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord
6. Only 4 seats
7. Lack of charging infrastructure
8. Unknown battery life
9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems
10. Made by GM

You're way off the mark on a few of these...

1. Expensive - True.

2. Late to the market - Remains to be seen. For an RE-EV, it is likely to be first. But it's not all that far ahead of the next ones, so it is a very limited advantage. Many will see HEVs as competition. GM will have a tough time differentiating it.

3. Stiff competition - True. Mostly because the price makes so many things relatively more attractive.

4. Cheap gasoline - Remains to be seen.

5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord - False. Enough people have an outlet in the garage and can see the economic benefit that plugging it in every day will be OK.

6. Only 4 seats - True.

7. Lack of charging infrastructure - False. Got socket?

8. Unknown battery life - Remains to be seen. With a very long warranty, I think people will not worry overmuch about this.

9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems - False. There's no transmission and electric motors are pretty reliable. Some of the new components have no moving parts.

10. Made by GM - True.

Here's mine.


1. Expensive - This really does remain to be seen. With a tax incentive, and depending on gas prices in a few years. The non plug in Prius is only a few thousand dollars less than the expected price of the Volt once you price in all of the options that the Volt includes standard.

2. Late to the market - Only Fisker will beat them with an EREV, and those cost $90,000. The only other companies who are planning on building EREVs are Honda, who just started very recently, and Chrysler who will almost assuredly not be around to produce them.

3. Stiff competition - Again, if you're referring to regular hybrids, even the fact that the Prius and Insight are great cars, for people who like buying from the Big 3 (yes there's still obviously about 1/3 of the population who feels this way), the Volt will be great. People who have long commutes and don't mind paying a few thousand more for the Volt will love them. People who think the Prius is ugly will love them. People who think the Prius has gotten too trendy will love them. People who want the ultimate green image will love them. People who like have the coolest high tech stuff and being the first on their street with the latest and greatest will love them.

4. Cheap gasoline - In 2-3 years when the Volt comes out, I find it very unlikely gas will still be cheap. Do you know how many cars China is building? There is expected to be 1.25 billion cars in the world by 2015. Global oil production peaked in 2005.

5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord - Even if you don't park in your garage. All it takes is a retractable extension cord running from your garage if you park in the driveway, and you are talking about 25 seconds worth of effort.

6. Only 4 seats - true, but the average American family has 2 kids. That means that 50% of the population wouldn't need that extra seat even if they did need their whole family to go somewhere, and they'd probably rather have the cup holders they replaced it with so as to minimize spills.

7. Lack of charging infrastructure - that's the whole point of the range extender.

8. Unknown battery life - LG Chem is warrantying their batteries, but GM has done so many tests over the last 2 years on the batteries, and are still to be testing for the next 2 years, I'm sure they'll have a pretty good idea. So far they're performing flawlessly.

9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems - This is the falsest of them all. 95% of the time you're running in electric mode, which means your gas engine will effectively last forever without much maintenance, especially since it's running at a constant and optimal RPM, and the electric parts that could possibly wear out are very few since there are so few parts, even less of which are moving, and there is effectively no extreme heats involved like normal cars have, except when you run the gas engine for many hours.

Those electric parts that do wear out will be very easy to diagnose since there is such a short list of potential problem parts. That's one of the biggest benefits to buying the Volt, besides not using gas.

10. Made by GM - I assume you're talking about the reliability problems with lower end GM vehicles in years past. This is not an issue since the car maintenance is so minimal with the electric components doing all of the work. This is the perfect opportunity to change that perception gap.

Omnimoeish: "1. ...once you price in all of the options that the Volt includes standard."

Have we seen an actual list? For the matter of that, neither have we seen the actual price. As near as I can tell, when GM talks Volt price, they're leaving themselves room for "under $40K" or "mid to high 30's" to be the net price after tax credit. Toyota has published the 2010 Prius price... it starts at $22K with decent equipment and they'll introduce a stripper version later this year for less. They are responding to the price pressure from the Insight. A very nicely equipped Prius with group 3 options and the nav/solar cooling package will MSRP for $26,800. That's not at all bad.

Omnimoeish: "3. Stiff compeititon... yes there's still obviously about 1/3 of the population who feels this way (and buy GM)"

They buy GM when the car is heavily discounted and has massive rebates. GM can't do that with the Volt. Well, they could, but that will mirror their current hybrid program's complete lack of profitability.

Omnimoeish: "6. Only 4 seats - true, but the average American family has 2 kids. "

Very few people buy a car that precisely meets their needs for their own family members alone. As far as I can tell, once the typical soccer mom has her second (or even first) kid, she gets an SUV or minivan that can seat the whole team. The Prius, for sure, has an edge in seats and is very likely to have an edge in interior room.

For many families, ninety per cent of trips will involve only the driver... how many two-seaters sell every year? Answer: not many. The Fiero and Ford EXP projects, attempts to mainstream two-seat commuter cars, didn't last long.

If the Volt retails for $37,500, it will be $30,000 after rebate. That's just $3,200 more than a similar Prius I'm guessing. Of course this is all guessing, like I said, the fact that the Volt is too expensive still remains to be seen. I think the Gen 1 Prius is not expected to make a lot of money, with all of the advances in batteries and other fuel efficiency upgrades, Gen 2 is certainly going to be a grand slam, just like how the Gen 2 Prius took off when the Gen 1 Priuses were sold at a loss.

GM is an older company than Toyota and Honda and has been slowly sinking as legacy costs pile up on top of them. By the time the Volt comes out, I imagine GM will be much less burdened with those legacy costs. Give Toyota another 20 years and they will be suffering the same thing that GM is dealing with now.

As far as the 4 seating capacity. The Volt's niche is going to be for commuters. People who are moronic enough to buy suburbans when they have their first or second child are probably the same ones disillusioned into thinking gas will always be $2/gallon because some fairy conjures it out of thin air. Those much exaggerated soccer moms (who certainly aren't buying a Prius or Insight) would probably be buying a GM SUV anyway, just not the Volt. The 4 seat capacity is only going to be an issue for the first few years of Volt production, by gen 2, that's not going to be an issue. Just like the first Priuses and Insights were not the wonder cars people think of the latest ones coming out.

You're way off the mark on a few of these...
2. Late to the market - Remains to be seen. For an RE-EV, it is likely to be first. But it's not all that far ahead of the next ones, so it is a very limited advantage. Many will see HEVs as competition. GM will have a tough time differentiating it.
4. Cheap gasoline - Remains to be seen.
5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord - False. Enough people have an outlet in the garage and can see the economic benefit that plugging it in every day will be OK.
7. Lack of charging infrastructure - False. Got socket?
8. Unknown battery life - Remains to be seen. With a very long warranty, I think people will not worry overmuch about this.
9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems - False. There's no transmission and electric motors are pretty reliable. Some of the new components have no moving parts.

1. From user stand point there is no difference between RE-EV and HEV, as long as user meets his millage expectations. HEV are here, for a half price, and there were here for the last 10 years. They have proven record. There are reliable. How GM is going to deal with it?
2. If everybody is switching to electric, what do you think is going to happen with gasoline price? It is very inelastic. Even 10% reduction in demand will half its price. Or worse.
3. Cord IS inconvenient. Summer, winter, rain, snow, night and day, everyday. Just wait until you try. There is a reason why WiFi beats corded internet and corded phones are dinosaurs. And if you (or your spouse) are not rigorous enough your car will end up not charged and running on gas. And I hope GM will come up with some special safe quick connector and not just any cord. You certainly don't want to drive your car plugged in.
4. You do not always have a socket. Work, vacation, friends, etc - none of these places is equipped.
5. I worry. My laptop Li-ion lost 50% of capacity in less than 2 years. My cell phones, camera, camcoder, PDA - the same. Why do you think Volt battery is immune? Do you think warranty will be transferable if you sell? How much would be its resale value I wonder in just 2 years if battery is 50% dead and the new battery cost is 50% of a new vehicle cost? I think it will be similar to my 2 years old laptop - next to nothing.
9. Electric motors are indeed reliable. But there is a big share of sophisticated and high power electronics in the RE-EV car: charger, controller, computer, etc. How reliable will it be under very harsh driving condition? My experience with modern car computers is not that good and very expensive to fix. It's not like you run 2 wires from battery to motor with one switch in the cabin. I believe it is more like complicated motherboard with 20 firmware and driver upgrades needed to fix all kind of nasty bugs. Now if there is anything wrong with such car, do you know which mechanic could help you? My guess you will stick with dealer service for years to come. Dealers charge $100 just to run OBD2 diagnostics and all they do is stick a connector and push a button. I estimate Volt service will run you into thousands.

1. Expensive
True. But expense may be justified based on gas prices. Think $5/gal gas. A $40,000 Volt may very well be cheaper than a $15,000 economy car when you factor in the cost of operating it.

2. Late to the market
Late to what market? Gas prices are still volatile- they are only being held down by a weak economy. The market timing may very well be perfect. Imagine if the economy picks back up two years from now and we start seeing $5/gal gas. If the economy goes back up, so will gas prices. Mark my words.

3. Stiff competition
If there's competition, it means there's potential for EREVs. I'm all for competition. If you are talking about regular cheap hybrids, I don't really consider them competition. They may be half the cost, but they get half the gas mileage, and are only half as cool.

4. Cheap gasoline
Agreed 100%. Expensive gas is what gave birth to the Volt concept. We need expensive gas to see it succeed. Greed is the key to the Volts success.

5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord
People do strange things to save money they spend on expensive gas.

6. Only 4 seats
Agreed. But I think the 4 seat issue will be solved by Volt 2.0.

7. Lack of charging infrastructure
I disagree. The primary charging infrastructure is right in our homes, in our garages, or for some of us, in the form of a 100ft extension cord if necessary. And the charging format is as basic and standard as you could expect.

8. Unknown battery life
Agreed. Batteries will probably be an issue after a few years in the hands of customers.

9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems
No transmission. Electric motors are very very reliable. The genset is computer controlled and not used all the time like traditional gas cars operate. I dare say maintenance and even repairs (save for perhaps the battery packs) will be cheaper than a traditional gas car.

10. Made by GM
And the Roadster is made by Tesla. ???

Say the Volt cost $4,000 more than a similar packaged Prius after tax incentive ($27,000 for the Prius vs. $31,000 for the Volt). Say the average person were to keep the car 10 years, they keep it until the battery warranties expire (on both the Prius and Volt).

Say the Volt saves you 4/5 a gallon of gas a day over the Prius (approximately how much gas you would use in a 40 mile commute, after that the gas mileages are the same, at 50 mpg anyway).

Say the average price of gas is $3.50 over the 10 years you own the vehicle (say 2011 - 2021).

Say the Volt and Prius have the same resale value in 10 years (in spite of the fact the Volt costs $4,000 more up front, let's say the battery costs $4,000 more to replace than the Prius's battery, so that cost is factored into the resale value).

The Volt saved you $10,200 in gas, and $6,200 even after you subtract the $4,000 premium you paid for it. The Volt paid for its premium in about 4 years, after that it's all gravy.

We won't count all of the extra oil changes and other maintenance that the Prius needs over the Volt during those 10 years.

That's easy math. Now if gas goes back up to $4.50/gallon or more in a year from now...well, you get the idea.

One of the real questions is what will the resale value of the Volt be, because after all, even if the Volt costs $4,000 more than the Prius out of the showroom, if you can resell it for $20,000 6 or 7 years later and the Prius only sells for $16,000, you paid the exact same amount ($11,000 in this case) for the cars and still got to save all that gas in the mean time).

Will people find it worth it to plug the car in to save $1,000 a year and all of the hassle of waiting in those endless lines at Costco to get gas? I think so. Plugging your car in is not the same as having to use a phone with a cord on it, you aren't tethered to the wall when your car is plugged in, but a corded phone or internet does restrict your movements. Now if the car had to be plugged in while you drive it, I could see where that would become an inconvenience. However, the same way you charge your cordless phone, or cell phone so you can move around with it when you need to, that's an EV.

When the Volt is 10 years old, the gas engine has been used so seldom that all of the moving parts are still in mint condition. There is no transmission, so that's not going to scare buyers away when they see how many miles are on the transmission of the Prius, and if your battery still has most of its useful life left, your Volt should depreciate rather slowly depending on how well you take care of it. If you want, you can split the cost of a replacement battery with whoever you're selling it to, your Volt is basically as good as the day it rolled off the assembly line.

Bottom line is, if the Volt can outdo Toyota's hot selling halo car in cost of ownership and "greenness", it can hang with anyone. Add to that the pent up demand for plug in hybrids that GM is going to be the first to cash in on, it should be a winner.

2. If everybody is switching to electric, what do you think is going to happen with gasoline price? It is very inelastic. Even 10% reduction in demand will half its price. Or worse.

Ha ha, you're right, they are inelastic, but guess what. By 2015, Obama hopes to have 1 million plug in hybrids on the road. Most think that is too difficult. There is expected to be 1.25 billion cars in the world by 2015. You tell me if the Volt is going to make a hill of beans difference in the price of gas. On top of that, only a little over half of oil is used for transportation. The rest is used for plastics, jets, home heating, etc.

omnimoeish: "Say the Volt cost $4,000 more than a similar packaged Prius after tax incentive ($27,000 for the Prius vs. $31,000 for the Volt). Say the average person were to keep the car 10 years, they keep it until the battery warranties expire (on both the Prius and Volt). Say the Volt saves you 4/5 a gallon of gas a day over the Prius (approximately how much gas you would use in a 40 mile commute, after that the gas mileages are the same, at 50 mpg anyway)."

Waaaait a minute. Either you're not comparing a base Prius ($22K) to a base Volt (best estimate $40K - $7.5K = $32.5K) or you're projecting the cost of a PHEV Prius, in which case the price may be OK (hmmm... a PHEV Prius will also qualify for a tax credit of some amount) but the fuel use on the Prius is going to be reduced.

And you save thousands more if you drive a motorcycle instead. Or walk, or take the bus, kind of a pointless comparison.

Andy0X1, "And you save thousands more if you drive a motorcycle instead. Or walk, or take the bus, kind of a pointless comparison."

The comparison wasn't between all available alternatives for getting from point A to point B, the comparison was between different automobile purchases. These kinds of comparisons are made all the time and they do have utility.

omnimoeish, "Ha ha, you're (rvd) right, they are inelastic, but guess what. By 2015, Obama hopes to have 1 million plug in hybrids on the road. Most think that is too difficult. There is expected to be 1.25 billion cars in the world by 2015. You tell me if the Volt is going to make a hill of beans difference in the price of gas. On top of that, only a little over half of oil is used for transportation. The rest is used for plastics, jets, home heating, etc."

Yes! Stable or very gently increasing oil prices make all kinds of oil-guzzling activities more attractive. A fair amount of oil goes into powerboats, ATVs, oil-fired furnaces, and the other things you mention. People who look down the road at oil dependence, GHG emissions and other issues buy themselves a Prius or, someday, a Volt to cut fuel consumption and try to mitigate these things. As they do these tihngs, someone else notices the price of fuel is fairly stable near $2/gallon and buys a 38ft motorhome.

There must be a steady and powerful economic disincentive to use oil or we'll just keep using more and more of it and personal decisions to voluntarily reduce oil consumption will be overwhelmed by the decisions other consumers make based on market forces.

A tax on oil (I'd rather see one on fossil fuels, generally) can be that disincentive. Raise the price of oil, and make sure it keeps going up, and people with oil furnaces start to insulate their homes, people will walk or bike, use the bus, stop buying houses further and further out of town, look to form carpools and generally change all their behaviors to avoid burning up oil. Chemical companies will look, for example, to soy-based alternatives to oil-based plastics, recycling of oil-based plastics will become more aggressive.... A million things will change.

The impact of ten thousand or even two hundred thousand Volts will be utterly insignificant by comparison.

omnimoeish: "Say the Volt cost $4,000 more than a similar packaged Prius after tax incentive ($27,000 for the Prius vs. $31,000 for the Volt). Say the average person were to keep the car 10 years, they keep it until the battery warranties expire (on both the Prius and Volt). Say the Volt saves you 4/5 a gallon of gas a day over the Prius (approximately how much gas you would use in a 40 mile commute, after that the gas mileages are the same, at 50 mpg anyway)."

Waaaait a minute. Either you're not comparing a base Prius ($22K) to a base Volt (best estimate $40K - $7.5K = $32.5K) or you're projecting the cost of a PHEV Prius, in which case the price may be OK (hmmm... a PHEV Prius will also qualify for a tax credit of some amount) but the fuel use on the Prius is going to be reduced.

The base Prius is $22,000, but the top end is $32,500. The base Volt might be more like a $24,000 Prius as far as options, but even with that, the total cost of ownership is still comparable after 6 or 7 years.

http://gm-volt.com/page/4/

I would guess the Prius V package which is $27,270 is pretty close to the Volt's base package. We know the Volt will all have LED headlights and fog lights standard, I can't remember if it has 16" or 17" wheels standard, I believe maybe 16", but close enough, it has the upgraded Bose stereo system standard as I mentioned, I would imagine it will have an auto dimming mirror standard, anyway, there could be few a variations, I'm not sure if the base Volt has leather seats included, but I'm just saying the Volt is not totally off in left field as far as how much it will cost compared to the hit hybrids we know and love. Also, I know in Oregon where I live, the state is offering it's own tax rebates on plug in electrics. This could become more common as the plug ins become reality. I think California is going to do it too once they get their budget under control and that's a huge auto market.

. . .I know in Oregon where I live, the state is offering it's own tax rebates on plug in electrics. This could become more common as the plug ins become reality. I think California is going to do it too once they get their budget under control and that's a huge auto market.

By the time California gets their budget under control, we will be driving maglev cars or using Star Trek transporters. (Or that uber-cool flying motorcycle thing from the latest Star Trek movie. Must have!!!)

ommnimoeish,

I see where you're coming from but:

1. Many people buy base cars and simply take them as they come.
2. We don't really know how GM is going to equip the Volt. If they do it the way you suggest, esp leather, why the heck isn't it a Cadillac? Uhhh... Don't take that peronally, this isn't intended to be critical of you, I'm venting exasperation with GM.
3. The $22K Prius is actually a group 2. The $21K group 1 Prius, allegedly headed this way, is the stripper unit.

The focus for enthusiasm on the Volt isn't the nifty equipment but the base car capability of driving electrically. Given the choice, I think many folk here would buy a stripped Volt (in fact, there's periodic posts about that).

If GM up-equips the Volt, it's probably done for the same reason they only provide a hybrid SUV in top trim - to disguise the real price of the technology and try to sell it without taking a ginormous bath (they'll settle for taking a basic bath, I guess). Those games are what have led to Tahoe Hybrid monthly sales in the very low 3 figures.

GM shouldn't be dancing around with the Volt; it's mainstream it or just do something else. Given where they're headed next week... Well, a profitable vehicle that ships in quantity is what they need.

Altazi: "By the time California gets their budget under control, we will be driving maglev cars or using Star Trek transporters. (Or that uber-cool flying motorcycle thing from the latest Star Trek movie. Must have!!!) "

That's the problem with rebates targeted to specific vehicle characteristics... California could be subsidizing Volts years in the future when what makes sense is really something else, or maybe something else makes more sense today.

If we want to reduce oil use, we should tax it. Let the free markets sort out how to cope with that. Without other distortions, producers will find ways to provide effective solutions. Some proffered solutions will be Volts. Other solutions will be surprises.

1. Expensive - This is a legitimate issue, especially given no. 10, the overall perception of GM brand and quality. (Valid point.)
2. Late to the market - Not important. Great products succeed. What if Apple didn't do the iPhone because the Blackberry was already well established? (Late doesn't matter if you aren't better.)
3. Stiff competition - The biggest issue here isn't the product. It's the reputation. GM has a terrible reputation, plus if your values are toward the environment, who wants to buy a car from the company that makes an Escalade? Toyota, on the other hand, has a great reputation for quality and economy. (Some people by American because they buy American.)
4. Cheap gasoline - Not likely. Gasoline is sure to be approaching $4/gallon in 2011. Gasoline will go up even if consumption stays flat. Exxon will see to that. (Are you looking for reasons the Volt will fail?)
5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord - Really? Do you mean there aren't enough people with 2 and 3 car garages to support this market? I would much rather plug my car in than go to a gas station and touch a gas nozzle that has been handled by thousand of strangers. Who knows what these hands touched last! This seems to be the most wrong of the other wrong conclusions. (I'm getting suspicious of your motives. Am I the only one who wears a glove when pumping gas?)
6. Only 4 seats - I guess someone should tell Toyota and Honda to withdraw from the market because they can't seat more than 4 people in most of their cars. (I'm beginning to wonder if you actually thought about any of these 10 reasons.)
7. Lack of charging infrastructure - I am within a 40 mile round trip, like many, many others. (Did you do any research at all?)
8. Unknown battery life - This is the same red herring that showed up with the original Prius. My 5-year old Prius has never had any battery problems. Sure, it's different technology but I'm sure some of the cost in 1. above is in consideration of some early replacement under a long-term warranty. (Fear of the unknown. Great strategy if you are trying to derail the Volt. Be afraid...)
9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems -- I have an electric lawn mower that is at least 18 years old and I have never spent a penny on maintenance! It starts every time. If a gasoline engine never runs, I don't see how maintenance could be expensive. (Do you work for Toyota?)
10. Made by GM - Gulp, you might be right! (Ahh.... This is the most valid of all. Will GM be around? Will their reputation improve? Will the product deliver on the hype? Will it perform as expected? Can they move beyond their brand recognition as a producer of oil swine products?)

1. Expensive - This is a legitimate issue, especially given no. 10, the overall perception of GM brand and quality. (Valid point.)
2. Late to the market - Not important. Great products succeed. What if Apple didn't do the iPhone because the Blackberry was already well established? (Late doesn't matter if you aren't better.)
3. Stiff competition - The biggest issue here isn't the product. It's the reputation. GM has a terrible reputation, plus if your values are toward the environment, who wants to buy a car from the company that makes an Escalade? Toyota, on the other hand, has a great reputation for quality and economy. (Some people by American because they buy American.)
4. Cheap gasoline - Not likely. Gasoline is sure to be approaching $4/gallon in 2011. Gasoline will go up even if consumption stays flat. Exxon will see to that. (Are you looking for reasons the Volt will fail?)
5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord - Really? Do you mean there aren't enough people with 2 and 3 car garages to support this market? I would much rather plug my car in than go to a gas station and touch a gas nozzle that has been handled by thousand of strangers. Who knows what these hands touched last! This seems to be the most wrong of the other wrong conclusions. (I'm getting suspicious of your motives. Am I the only one who wears a glove when pumping gas?)
6. Only 4 seats - I guess someone should tell Toyota and Honda to withdraw from the market because they can't seat more than 4 people in most of their cars. (I'm beginning to wonder if you actually thought about any of these 10 reasons.)
7. Lack of charging infrastructure - I am within a 40 mile round trip, like many, many others. (Did you do any research at all?)
8. Unknown battery life - This is the same red herring that showed up with the original Prius. My 5-year old Prius has never had any battery problems. Sure, it's different technology but I'm sure some of the cost in 1. above is in consideration of some early replacement under a long-term warranty. (Fear of the unknown. Great strategy if you are trying to derail the Volt. Be afraid...)
9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems -- I have an electric lawn mower that is at least 18 years old and I have never spent a penny on maintenance! It starts every time. If a gasoline engine never runs, I don't see how maintenance could be expensive. (Do you work for Toyota?)
10. Made by GM - Gulp, you might be right! (Ahh.... This is the most valid of all. Will GM be around? Will their reputation improve? Will the product deliver on the hype? Will it perform as expected? Can they move beyond their brand recognition as a producer of oil swine products?)
Damn, Greenman. I am in 100% agreement with you for once. Surely the end of the world is near. ;)

Damn, Greenman. I am in 100% agreement with you for once. Surely the end of the world is near. ;)

So, you use a glove when pumping gas too? I bet you don't like touching the door handle on public bathrooms either. I gave up pinball as a youth because I didn't like the thought of all those other fingers.

So, I'm quite happy to be the only one touching my cord at home, thank you. I will not miss a weekly trip to the gas station.

So, you use a glove when pumping gas too? I bet you don't like touching the door handle on public bathrooms either. I gave up pinball as a youth because I didn't like the thought of all those other fingers.

So, I'm quite happy to be the only one touching my cord at home, thank you. I will not miss a weekly trip to the gas station.

When leaving a public restroom (after washing my hands), I open the door with a paper towel if it's a pull-to-open; if it's a "push", I use my hip or shoulder. I also keep bottles of hand sanitizer in my vehicles.

I bet you two don't let your kids eat their boogers either.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/135709/benefits_of_boogereating.html?cat=5

You know you're only doing your immune system a disservice when you baby it like that. It's called tough love.

I bet you two don't let your kids eat their boogers either.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/135709/benefits_of_boogereating.html?cat=5

You know you're only doing your immune system a disservice when you baby it like that. It's called tough love.
My wife works in a primary school. I'm sure I get enough exposure as it is.

So, you use a glove when pumping gas too? I bet you don't like touching the door handle on public bathrooms either. I gave up pinball as a youth because I didn't like the thought of all those other fingers.

So, I'm quite happy to be the only one touching my cord at home, thank you. I will not miss a weekly trip to the gas station.
I forgot to mention that here in Oregon, we are not allowed/forced to pump our own gas. The service station attendants do it for us.

When leaving a public restroom (after washing my hands), I open the door with a paper towel if it's a pull-to-open; if it's a "push", I use my hip or shoulder. I also keep bottles of hand sanitizer in my vehicles.

I avoid public restrooms like the plague. I always use a paper towel too but sometimes I have to stick it in my pocket (bad bathroom design because we aren't alone). I've learned to pump the paper towel device a few times before I wash my hands so I don't have to pump it after.

I prefer "push" door and I typically use the side of my hand or my knuckles high up on the door, or give it a gentle kick at the bottom with my foot. Any other tips? Once again, we are 100% in agreement. Public restrooms s***.

I forgot to mention that here in Oregon, we are not allowed/forced to pump our own gas. The service station attendants do it for us.

Really, I can't remember the last time I had someone pump my gas. Must have been back when gas was $.32/gallon and gas stations survived by selling cigarettes and jerky.

Greenman: "I avoid public restrooms like the plague. "

Greenman, Altazi, I'm another one avoiding the public bathrooms and opening the door with paper towel when they can't be avoided.

On the other hand, I have no problem backpacking; digging a hole. Hey, nobody else used that hole.

---

I believe we had our fuel pumped for us a few years back in New Jersey. Seemed kinda weird.

It kinda begs the question: What do people in other states say as a come back, if not "That's all right, that's ok, you're gonna pump my gas some day!"?

1. Expensive - This is a legitimate issue, especially given no. 10, the overall perception of GM brand and quality. (Valid point.)
2. Late to the market - Not important. Great products succeed. What if Apple didn't do the iPhone because the Blackberry was already well established? (Late doesn't matter if you aren't better.)
3. Stiff competition - The biggest issue here isn't the product. It's the reputation. GM has a terrible reputation, plus if your values are toward the environment, who wants to buy a car from the company that makes an Escalade? Toyota, on the other hand, has a great reputation for quality and economy. (Some people by American because they buy American.)
4. Cheap gasoline - Not likely. Gasoline is sure to be approaching $4/gallon in 2011. Gasoline will go up even if consumption stays flat. Exxon will see to that. (Are you looking for reasons the Volt will fail?)
5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord - Really? Do you mean there aren't enough people with 2 and 3 car garages to support this market? I would much rather plug my car in than go to a gas station and touch a gas nozzle that has been handled by thousand of strangers. Who knows what these hands touched last! This seems to be the most wrong of the other wrong conclusions. (I'm getting suspicious of your motives. Am I the only one who wears a glove when pumping gas?)
6. Only 4 seats - I guess someone should tell Toyota and Honda to withdraw from the market because they can't seat more than 4 people in most of their cars. (I'm beginning to wonder if you actually thought about any of these 10 reasons.)
7. Lack of charging infrastructure - I am within a 40 mile round trip, like many, many others. (Did you do any research at all?)
8. Unknown battery life - This is the same red herring that showed up with the original Prius. My 5-year old Prius has never had any battery problems. Sure, it's different technology but I'm sure some of the cost in 1. above is in consideration of some early replacement under a long-term warranty. (Fear of the unknown. Great strategy if you are trying to derail the Volt. Be afraid...)
9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems -- I have an electric lawn mower that is at least 18 years old and I have never spent a penny on maintenance! It starts every time. If a gasoline engine never runs, I don't see how maintenance could be expensive. (Do you work for Toyota?)
10. Made by GM - Gulp, you might be right! (Ahh.... This is the most valid of all. Will GM be around? Will their reputation improve? Will the product deliver on the hype? Will it perform as expected? Can they move beyond their brand recognition as a producer of oil swine products?)

I mostly agree with you but with a couple slight additions

#3, Toyota makes the Tundra and it's Escalade-like stablemate. Not exactly fuel sippers
#10, I currently use a 98 Malibu as my commuter car, it starts and runs fine and returns ~450km on 35 litres of fuel. Not bad for a car with 200000km on it. I'll buy GM again.

I don't get why people are so hung up about plugging in a car, and calling it 'inconvenient'. Try living north in Winnipeg, we HAVE to plug our cars in during the winter.

It takes 30 SECONDS to plug in your car as you are headed into your house. 30 FREAKING SECONDS.

You guys complain about 30 seconds every day, when currently you have to go to a gas station, wait for a few minutes for a free pump, then wait for the tank to fill up, wait in line to pay...That's like 20 minutes out of your day.

Which sounds more convenient to you? 30 seconds to plug in your car on your way in, or spending 15-20 minutes at a gas station?

If you think 30 seconds is inconvenient because of the cord, and expect the car to plug itself in, you are asking for the impossible.

I don't get why people are so hung up about plugging in a car, and calling it 'inconvenient'. Try living north in Winnipeg, we HAVE to plug our cars in during the winter.

It takes 30 SECONDS to plug in your car as you are headed into your house. 30 FREAKING SECONDS.

You guys complain about 30 seconds every day, when currently you have to go to a gas station, wait for a few minutes for a free pump, then wait for the tank to fill up, wait in line to pay...That's like 20 minutes out of your day.

Which sounds more convenient to you? 30 seconds to plug in your car on your way in, or spending 15-20 minutes at a gas station?

If you think 30 seconds is inconvenient because of the cord, and expect the car to plug itself in, you are asking for the impossible.

Gotta tell you, the biggest thrill in driving an electric is passing the gas stations, pulling into the garage and plugging in. 30-seconds twice per week, versus two stops per week - no contest!

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn15/sunpowr/2009_05_09_Tesla/chrgng-1.jpg

-SPARKZZ

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn15/sunpowr/2009_05_09_Tesla/100_0600.jpg

Is that your garage?

Is that your garage?


Yes.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn15/sunpowr/Tesla%20Roadster%20Delivery/100_0589.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn15/sunpowr/2009_05_09_Tesla/hoodbck.jpg

-SPARKZZ

It's so . . . so . . . clean!

(nice cars, too.) :)

That's exciting Prowler. I can't way to ogle at pictures of other forum members' Volts in a couple of years.

Greenman: "I avoid public restrooms like the plague. "

Greenman, Altazi, I'm another one avoiding the public bathrooms and opening the door with paper towel when they can't be avoided.

On the other hand, I have no problem backpacking; digging a hole. Hey, nobody else used that hole.

---

I believe we had our fuel pumped for us a few years back in New Jersey. Seemed kinda weird.

Here is an interesting editorial from the NY Times:

Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/opinion/28kristof.html?_r=1)

It suggests that people who don't like touching bathroom door handles are more likely to be conservatives. Hmmm.... Maybe I'm a closet conservative.

I wonder if it is genetic or a choice? I mean was I born a "toilet-phobic" or did it come from my parents teaching me to wash my hands. I should probably consult the Catholic Church.

I mostly agree with you but with a couple slight additions

#3, Toyota makes the Tundra and it's Escalade-like stablemate. Not exactly fuel sippers
#10, I currently use a 98 Malibu as my commuter car, it starts and runs fine and returns ~450km on 35 litres of fuel. Not bad for a car with 200000km on it. I'll buy GM again.

Toyota makes big SUVs and trucks but they are perceived as more economical. The perception of GM is low quality. I'm not suggesting that they don't have cars that are high quality and economical, but perception is reality.

I don't get why people are so hung up about plugging in a car, and calling it 'inconvenient'. Try living north in Winnipeg, we HAVE to plug our cars in during the winter.

It takes 30 SECONDS to plug in your car as you are headed into your house. 30 FREAKING SECONDS.

You guys complain about 30 seconds every day, when currently you have to go to a gas station, wait for a few minutes for a free pump, then wait for the tank to fill up, wait in line to pay...That's like 20 minutes out of your day.

Which sounds more convenient to you? 30 seconds to plug in your car on your way in, or spending 15-20 minutes at a gas station?

If you think 30 seconds is inconvenient because of the cord, and expect the car to plug itself in, you are asking for the impossible.

I am usually the one that someone cuts in front off at the pump or ends up facing the wrong direction where the pump won't reach. By the time I turn around, someone else has grabbed me spot.

My life would be complete if I never saw another gas station, much less visited one. I don't have a single pleasant experience in a lifetime of pumping gas... Didn't get a hot date... Didn't buy a winning lottery ticket... Didn't ever find a clean bathroom... Oh, already did that one. I'll take my own cord anytime.

MuddyRoverBob: "#3, Toyota makes the Tundra and it's Escalade-like stablemate. Not exactly fuel sippers"

People post about that a lot. As though it means something.

Here's the thing:

Toyota GM
-------- --------
Tundra Silverado
Sequoia Escalade
Prius ------

GM doesn't have anything for someone that wants a super-high mpg car. Toyota does. To the person who wants a super-high mpg car (to stick it to OPEC or save the planet or whatever), the Tundra, Silverado, Sequoia and Escalade are equally entirely irrelevant. GM does not exist in this space. To the Prius buyer, Toyota offers those people something for them and GM ignores them. The rest is irrelevant.

You can talk about the Tundra and Sequoia and other gas guzzling Toyotas all you like. They don't matter. GM doesn't compete for the Prius market. That's all that matters.

283

Suppose this picture was taken outside of the Prius battery factory?

1. Expensive
2. Late to the market
3. Stiff competition
4. Cheap gasoline
5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord
6. Only 4 seats
7. Lack of charging infrastructure
8. Unknown battery life
9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems
10. Made by GM

1. Expensive - remains to be seen since it will be less to operate/
2. Late to the market - compared to what? No other series hybrid exists.
4. Cheap gasoline - not for long!
5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord - how does it make the Volt any differene from any other electric car?
6. Only 4 seats - 2 more than I will ever use.
7. Lack of charging infrastructure - I plan on using a regular 15A outlet.
8. Unknown battery life - true. I usually let other people be early adaptors.
9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems. IMO, cheaper maintenance. gas subsystem won't need much maintenance sine I won't be using it much. The electric system won't need much since it's electric.
10. Made by GM - I've owned other GM cars. Doesn't bother me. Does make it more likely to fail since they can't overprice the car like Honda or Toyota could.

Problem is freedom of speech. Guy like you, totally uninformed, gets to tell lies on this great site. Go buy a used Corolla. Then toyota can lie to you.

1. Expensive
2. Late to the market
3. Stiff competition
4. Cheap gasoline
5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord
6. Only 4 seats
7. Lack of charging infrastructure
8. Unknown battery life
9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems
10. Made by GM

RVD - you should do late night commedy....

1. Expensive - cheaper than all of the Mercedes I've purchased and just a few K more than my Escape Hybrid.
2. Late to the market - 1st viable EREV to market - huge headstart
3. Stiff competition - with what? The 73 mile per charge Leaf? The $109K Tesla? The as yet to be available Prius (whose doors have been routinely blown off by my VOLT.
4. Cheap gasoline - Try a penny a mile to operate my VOLT (that is if I don't count the SOLAR which is free)....guess gas would have to be about 25 cents a gallon to match this et? Last I checked it was mid-$3 and rising.
5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord - easiest fill up I've ever had....click in my Voltec (5-6 seconds).
6. Only 4 seats - only have 2 kids...keeps the others away from hitching a freeloader ride with my family - fabulous.
7. Lack of charging infrastructure - my own 'gas station' is at home...the rest are all nationwide - impacts the Leaf and Tesla, but not the VOLT duh....
8. Unknown battery life - 80% after 8 years vs. 40% after 10 years for the leaf?? Come on, 40% of 73 miles for the leaf is 'junk yard'...80% of 40 miles barely impacts drivability of the VOLT.
9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems - have not even fired the ICE yet....may never do so.
10. Made by GM - agreed, can't believe the American made vehicles have come so far so fast - GREAT, feels like a Mercedes with the leather, bose, and heated seats....great powerful ride. NO REGRETS. GO GM, GO VOLT, GO SOLAR.

Thanks for the LOLs RVD :o)

1. Expensive - yes
2. Late to the market -yes
3. Stiff competition - yes
4. Cheap gasoline - no
5. Inconvenience related to charging it every day with cord - no need for cord, if you don't want to charge via the grid.
6. Only 4 seats - not aproblem to most.
7. Lack of charging infrastructure - no need to charge from plug
8. Unknown battery life - They last on the Prius. When shot they can be replaced with the new Toshiba batteries and get more range and charge up in a minute or two.
9. Double maintenance costs - electric and gas subsystems - False.
10. Made by GM - yes

how many two-seaters sell every year? Answer: not many.

If gasoline were free, even fewer 2-seaters would be sold. In Europe, where gasoline is expensive, lots are sold. Study after study has shown that in the U.S. we currently subsidize driving to the tune of somewhere around $5 per gallon of gas. If we ever had the good sense to price it realistically, you can bet that 2-seater sales would shoot up. And cars like the Volt wouldn't look so expensive.

Study after study has shown that in the U.S. we currently subsidize driving to the tune of somewhere around $5 per gallon of gas. If we ever had the good sense to price it realistically, you can bet that 2-seater sales would shoot up. And cars like the Volt wouldn't look so expensive.

I know I'm missing something here but can you explain the $5/gallon subsidy thing? Also, how do "we" get to "price" something "we" didn't bring to market? I assume you mean "tax" since that's all "we" can really do in this case.

I know I'm missing something here but can you explain the $5/gallon subsidy thing? Also, how do "we" get to "price" something "we" didn't bring to market? I assume you mean "tax" since that's all "we" can really do in this case.


Maybe I can shed some light.

1) Non-driving tax payers contribute to driving infrastructure and energy subsidies.
2) We can't determine the cost but the price can be set with taxes, like Europe does.

We also subsidize all forms of fossil fuel burning because the price of the fuel does not take into account things like health issues, military spending needed to secure petroleum resources, etc.

Of course, since energy is used for everything, the more you increase the price the more inflation rises. There is no free lunch with energy. The most important factors are EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested), location of resource (national security issue), sustainability of resource (fossil fuels are nonrenewables), availably of resource and scalability of resource. There is no match for petroleum at this time and no practical options for the foreseeable future.

Humanity will try to "fix" things with paper and accounting but it will be futile. Energy is required for life and economy. The harder it is to get that energy and the less energy margin is available the less economy we can power and the smaller the population we can support. It is really that simple.

Thanks TX, makes sense to me.

(I started this before noticing Texas' reply, but here it is anyway, off the top of my head): road construction and maintenance, parking lot construction and maintenance, police and fire protection of the highways, medical care for accident and pollution victims, lost hours of work commuting, military protection of sea lanes for shipping crude oil, and so on. It really is staggering once you start to list all the costs that aren't included in the direct cost of owning and operating all those cars.
The point is that most of these costs are "hidden" from us in property taxes, income taxes, higher interest rates, and so on. If we reduced all those taxes and increased the gas tax to pay these costs, people would be HIGHLY motivated to drive more efficient and less polluting cars.

Here's the thing:

Toyota GM
-------- --------
Tundra Silverado
Sequoia Escalade
Prius ------

GM doesn't have anything for someone that wants a super-high mpg car. Toyota does. To the person who wants a super-high mpg car (to stick it to OPEC or save the planet or whatever), the Tundra, Silverado, Sequoia and Escalade are equally entirely irrelevant. GM does not exist in this space. To the Prius buyer, Toyota offers those people something for them and GM ignores them. The rest is irrelevant.

You can talk about the Tundra and Sequoia and other gas guzzling Toyotas all you like. They don't matter. GM doesn't compete for the Prius market. That's all that matters.
I totally missed this ancient thread until someone revived it.

Curiously, now that the Volts are rolling off of the assembly line, it's surprising how many Volt buyers here are current or former Prius owners! I think that GM indeed does compete for the Prius market. They do it with the Volt. And GM is doing it very well.

I was an early Gen. 2 Prius adopter in 2004. Waited a long time to take delivery, was totally impressed. The Prius is still a cool car. But the same feeling is back times ten with the Volt.

Volt vs. Prius when the stoplight turns green? No competition at all. Volt blows Prius' doors off. Silently.