Mazda starts leasing hydrogen hybrid mini-van:

Link (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10204320-48.html)

It is a series hybrid design with a hydrogen burning rotary engine to create electricity to keep the batteries charged, while an electric motor drives the wheels.

Hmm that is just a Volt in mini van body that can burn hydrogen or gas to charge the batteries. Does anyone know the battery only range of it?

Here's what Mazda is showing about it:
http://www.mazda.com/mazdaspirit/env/hybrid/premacy_hre2.html

* Start up
Battery power
* Steady running
Driven by hydrogen rotary engine and generator
* Acceleration
Driven by hydrogen rotary engine
and generator + battery
* Deceleration
Energy is recovered by the motor when braking and when using the engine as a brake. The recovered energy replenishes the battery.
* Idling
The engine automatically switches off. If necessary, it will restart and charge the battery.

So it looks like their battery is small, and the car is not a plug-in. Pity, as otherwise it sounds like a very interesting car. No mention of the price.

Jason, Can you give us the reference where it says it's a series hybrid? I'm pretty sure it's just a weak parallel design. Probably a very small motor just to help out and to gather the regen energy. The battery is probably the size of the current Prius or so.

With a 16 kWh battery it would be like the Volt but can run on hydrogen! The best part is that it's a Super Flex Fuel Vehicle (SFFV - I made that up). The rotary engine can also run on gasoline when no hydrogen is available. Thus, no outside infrastructure is needed.

This would be very good for company fleets that want that hydrogen PR and want to put in a hydrogen filling station. That way all employees can leave the premises under hydrogen. Excellent PR!

I look forward to a Hymotion retrofit of this so it's a true plug-in as well. Electricity will always be the cheapest due to the efficiency of the system. Thus, they charge up with electricity, top off the hydrogen tank before they leave and go as far as they can. When they are about to run out of the green stuff they hit the gas station to get back home. Brilliant!

If they covered the parking lot with a solar paneled sun shade they could charge the batteries and generate hydrogen when the sun is out as well. A complete green solution where the car's batteries and the stationary hydrogen tank work as electrical energy storage.

The economics of it might just work because liquid fuel prices are much higher than stationary electricity charges. Great PR and it gets you going today for the infrastructure of tomorrow. Love this plan and I think it has Google written all over it (if they even want to bother with hydrogen). I'm sure there is some CEO out there that feels it's the way to go, even if Google is sure we are going EV only (I have know idea what they are thinking)

Another good idea would be for a company that has a fleet of service trucks. Perhaps Garbage collection, Buses, package delivery, etc. The cost would be high for the hydrogen filling station and the hydrogen storage on the trucks but the rotary engine burns hydrogen so the extremely expensive fuel cells are not needed.

It should be noted that a system like this would only be practical with a good chunk of it funded by the government. However, we have to start somewhere and the data and development would be well worth it. I give it the green light for having a multi-systems approach where different technology are used together for an efficient solution.

Texas,
The following is an article based on Mazda press release. Indeed the model in question is a serial hybrid. I think it is just to showcase Mazda’s hydrogen technology. The drivetrain is a kind of torque converter to compensate for the weak low-end torque of the Wankel engine. Also, the electric drive and battery allow it to stop engine at traffic signals and stop/go situation. However, now that a low-cost catalyzer to replace platinum has been found for hydrogen fuel cells I feel viability of the Mazda design is questionable.

****
HIROSHIMA, Japan—Mazda Motor Corporation today commenced commercial leasing of the Mazda Premacy Hydrogen RE Hybrid, a hydrogen hybrid vehicle that offers substantially improved performance thanks to the addition of a hybrid system. Mazda is the world’s first automobile manufacturer to begin commercial leasing of a hydrogen hybrid vehicle; the first units will be delivered to local government authorities and energy-related companies during 2009.

The Premacy Hydrogen RE Hybrid is Mazda’s second hydrogen rotary engine model to be commercialized; the first was Mazda’s unique RX-8 Hydrogen RE. The Premacy Hydrogen RE Hybrid’s finalized specifications were approved by Japan’s Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT) on March 5, 2009. The first vehicles received their registration numbers from the Hiroshima branch of the Chugoku District Transport Bureau on March 25.

The Premacy Hydrogen RE Hybrid features a series-type hybrid drivetrain, which combines Mazda’s hydrogen rotary engine with an electric motor. The engine output is converted to electricity, which then powers the motor that drives the wheels. This hybrid system boosts the hydrogen fuel range of the Premacy Hydrogen RE Hybrid to 200 kilometers, twice the range of the RX-8 Hydrogen RE, and increases the maximum output by approximately 40 percent, to 110 kilowatts. Mazda’s latest eco-car features many other forward-looking environmental technologies, including Mazda’s proprietary dual-fuel system, which enables the car to run on gasoline if hydrogen is unavailable, and interior parts made from Mazda’s plant-derived Biotechmaterials.

Based on the Sustainable Zoom-Zoom plan, Mazda is committed to pursuing harmony between driving pleasure and environmental and safety features, and the quest for an advanced Zoom-Zoom world. Mazda aims to offer vehicles that “look inviting to drive, are fun to drive, and make you want to drive them again.”

Main specifications of the Mazda Premacy Hydrogen RE Hybrid
Base model: Mazda Premacy
Overall length: 4,565mm
Overall width: 1,745mm
Overall height: 1,620 mm
Engine: Mazda’s hydrogen rotary engine (with dual-fuel system)
Motor: Alternating current synchronous motor
Maximum output: 110 kW
Generator: Alternating current synchronous generator
Battery: Lithium-ion (Li-ion)
Seating capacity: Five
Fuel: Hydrogen and gasoline
Hydrogen tank: 35 MPa high-pressure tank

With a 16 kWh battery it would be like the Volt but can run on hydrogen! The best part is that it's a Super Flex Fuel Vehicle (SFFV - I made that up). The rotary engine can also run on gasoline when no hydrogen is available. Thus, no outside infrastructure is needed.

I agree. I think it would be totally kick A for a car that can be plugged in, run on gas, or hydrogen, even though I would have a long drive, even from Oregon to be able to get to a gas station that offers hydrogen.


However, now that a low-cost catalyzer to replace platinum has been found for hydrogen fuel cells I feel viability of the Mazda design is questionable.

I guess it just depends on what kind of miles per kilogram of hydrogen you get in this thing (I'm guessing very low and that's why it's in a minivan body, so they can have a huge tank, even though it drops seating capacity from 7 to 5), and how much it costs to build these things that will determine if they are commercially viable.


Mazda is the world’s first automobile manufacturer to begin commercial leasing of a hydrogen hybrid vehicle

Wow, they're leasing them!?! What a shock!

I have a feeling they cost way more than they would ever be able sell them for. Especially once you added a 16kWh battery. That would be one mother of an expensive vehicle.

That thing also sounds like a maintenance nightmare paying a mechanic that can diagnose hydrogen/gas rotary engine problems and has a good bead on series hybrid engineering. Murphy is rolling in his grave.

If the transmission is a torque converter then it's not a series hybrid. It might be like a Prius that is a parallel series but it's not a series hybrid unless the rotary engine is only used to power a generator. This is not the case. I expect the battery, motor and generator are tiny. Absolutely tiny and almost insignificant. Notice there is no spec. on those items? Because they are probably tiny. Don't be fooled by the maximum output number. That's for the whole system (rotary + electric motor). It probably has an electric motor smaller than the new Honda Insight's motor - tiny.

My understanding is, based on the article I linked to above, that the engine directly turns a generator, and that provides the electricity for the motor, which is the only thing driving the car. So it is not a hybrid at all, but an EV!

But, the battery is there only to help during startup and to recover any braking energy, and to smooth out the demand during acceleration. It is not a plug-in, and therefore the battery is likely rather small. I guess it counts as an EREV.

Texas,
Sorry, my explanation wasn’t clear. Judging from many articles (both in English and Japanese) I read, the powertrain of the Mazda in question is indeed a serial ICE>generator/Li-ion battery buffer>electric motor design. The 110KW electric motor is the only source of propulsion.
My point was that Mazda chose this design since the rotary engine on H2 would be too weak at low rpm making the van impractical, so they are using the electric drive system as a kind of torque converter.

Output of a similar engine on the gas/H2 RX-8 is 210HP on gas vs. 109HP on H2. I think Mazda made this van only for publicity gain so that they can say H2, rotary engine and hybrid in one sentence. Yes, the Wankel design is more desirable to burn H2 than reciprocating piston engine since it has compression chamber separate from combustion chamber making the spontaneous ignition during compression cycle less likely. (Compression chamber is cooler and do not have hot spots.) But, that’s about it. Basically it is a high-rev engine with very anemic low-rpm torque (and, therefore, power), and its efficiency is not at the level of reciprocating piston design. If this combination proves anything that is the Volt type serial design is viable with an ICE that is weak in low-rpm range since it uses only the “sweet spot” mid-rpm range. I hope GM can state that the Volt ICE operates only in the rpm range where it is most efficient with the throttle valve fully open.

Texas,
Sorry, my explanation wasn’t clear. Judging from many articles (both in English and Japanese) I read, the powertrain of the Mazda in question is indeed a serial ICE>generator/Li-ion battery buffer>electric motor design. The 110KW electric motor is the only source of propulsion.
My point was that Mazda chose this design since the rotary engine on H2 would be too weak at low rpm making the van impractical, so they are using the electric drive system as a kind of torque converter.

Output of a similar engine on the gas/H2 RX-8 is 210HP on gas vs. 109HP on H2. I think Mazda made this van only for publicity gain so that they can say H2, rotary engine and hybrid in one sentence. Yes, the Wankel design is more desirable to burn H2 than reciprocating piston engine since it has compression chamber separate from combustion chamber making the spontaneous ignition during compression cycle less likely. (Compression chamber is cooler and do not have hot spots.) But, that’s about it. Basically it is a high-rev engine with very anemic low-rpm torque (and, therefore, power), and its efficiency is not at the level of reciprocating piston design. If this combination proves anything that is the Volt type serial design is viable with an ICE that is weak in low-rpm range since it uses only the “sweet spot” mid-rpm range. I hope GM can state that the Volt ICE operates only in the rpm range where it is most efficient with the throttle valve fully open.






Sorry, but I still disagree until I see more specifics on the drive train. I think you are confusing the line where it says 110 kW. They put that line under the motor but that does not mean the motor is 110 kW! If that line was right after the motor description like this:

Motor: Alternating current synchronous motor (110 kW)


Then I would agree with you. Do you have any more specifications that show the exact size of the motor and generator? I'm guessing they are very tiny. Just enough to add that extra boost to the weak hydrogen powered rotary engine. Just like a normal hybrid does. Just like how the Prius can use a weaker ICE (they increased the hp for the new model) because the electric motor helps add the low-end torque. Thus, I think they are pulling one over on you.

Why? Because having a large electric motor requires a very large and powerful battery pack. Just look at the Volt. It takes a lot of juice to power a car with only an electric motor. However, if the ICE and motor are connected though some transmission then they can work together. The small electric motor just adds as much power as it can, with a much smaller battery. Thus, much cheaper with all the cool PR. Again, I want to see the full specifications. My approach would be far cheaper and effective.

I'm betting the car is just a weak hybrid with a hydrogen burning rotary engine. No big deal. No serial hybrid that can be plugged in. Just the same old with a multi-fuel rotary. Don't get me wrong, it's a great concept that can get people to use limited hydrogen infrastructure. Very good for company PR, etc. Show me the specs!

Mazda has now delivered one of these series hybrids with a hydrogen burning rotary engine:

Link (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/openroad/post/2009/05/67268689/1)

I think they are smart with this approach, which will pave the way for fuel cell vehicles. Another smart approach would be a gasoline fuel cell.