http://www.eastbayexpress.com/gyrobase/who_s_killing_the_plug_in_hybrid_/Content?oid=903061&page=4


Under the warranty rules proposed by the agency's staff, a plug-in conversion company must provide an extended warranty for the Prius parts it alters or affects, along with a warranty for the parts it installs, including the battery it adds. The length of the warranty depends on how old the car is. 3Prong Power only works on Prius model years 2004 to 2009. So if the company converts a 2009 Prius, then it must warranty the Prius emissions parts for ten years or until the car reaches 150,000 miles. It also must warranty the Prius battery for ten years or until the car reaches 150,000. And it must warranty its own battery for ten years or 150,000 miles.

3Prong Power and A123 Systems have no trouble with providing warranties for the Prius parts they alter or affect. Sherwood explained that Priuses are very well-made, built to last, and that converting them to plug-ins doesn't harm them in any way. But 3Prong Power and A123 Systems object to having to provide a ten-year warranty for their own batteries. After all, the plug-in batteries don't replace the Prius' battery, they only supplement them. As a result, if the plug-in battery fails, the car simply reverts to being a regular hybrid. And because the batteries they install don't last ten years, both 3Prong Power and A123 Systems put in a simple switch for consumers to turn off their battery if they malfunction or die, thereby turning their cars back into regular Priuses.

I believe that LG's won't hold performance that long either, but they are willing to replace them at their own expense, as long as the customer spends $6,500 for the first battery. I am sure there are some statistics there about the rate of product return, etc., wherein LG has added the cost of so many replacement batteries to the cost of the initial battery.

I think A123 is smart to push back on CARB, since there's is a conversion, and not a new vehicle, so they shouldn't be held to the same expectations. Otherwise, they will have to play the same game as LG, increasing their initial battery costs to cover any / all replacements prior to 10 years / 100,000 miles.

I would suggest reading the entire, full text article: Link. (http://www.eastbayexpress.com/gyrobase/who_s_killing_the_plug_in_hybrid_/Content?oid=903061&showFullText=true)

I believe that LG's won't hold performance that long either
Well, LG's first customer, Hyundai, claimed LG's pack would last 1.5 times as long as Nickel Hydride cells of Prius.

As you know, Prius batteries are warranted for 10 year/150K miles.


I think A123 is smart to push back on CARB,
It is more of a confirmation from A123 themselves that their batteries wouldn't last under full-charge/full-drain cycles, unlike claims of "certain" member of this forum of them being indestructible and good as new after 3000 cycles. What's even worse, this life-span confirmation came from A123 itself.

Basically, A123 batteries too must be "managed(80~30% charge levels, active cooling, etc)" to ensure long life.

perfect being the enemy of good...

That's just ridiculous. Car 2.0 is in it's infancy. This would be a terrible set back to America's transition to the future. There are almost no parts in any car warrantied for 150,000 miles and most normal car components have been being perfected and engineered for durability and longevity for 50-100 years! Why should the battery be held to such a standard when it's only been around 5-10 years?

By the way, this article really doesn't argue A123's inferiority to LG Chem because, as has been stated, it's a conversion, the Prius was not designed from the ground up to baby the battery with thermoregulating systems, state of the art battery charge/discharge algorithms etc. like the Volt is, and even that remains to be seen if LG Chem cells in the Volt can last 150,000 miles.

the Prius was not designed from the ground up to baby the battery with thermoregulating systems, state of the art battery charge/discharge algorithms etc. like the Volt is
Tell that to M******, who has been preaching how A123 batteries would retain 90% of capacity without cooling after 3,000 cycles, good as new after 10 years...

But you have A123 telling CARB that its batteries don't last 10 years...

Then there's this paragraph in the article.

Consequently, air resources board engineers are recommending that plug-in hybrids undergo extensive cold-start emissions and gasoline-evaporation testing. According to agency documents, the tests likely will cost about $20,000 to $25,000 per vehicle. Swanton said in an interview that the board may only require that one vehicle be tested, but the agency's own documents state that the board may force companies to submit up to five test vehicles, meaning the total test costs could amount to $100,000 to $125,000.

They want to run $25,000 emissions tests on the converted vehicles? Sounds like someone from the oil companies have gotten their finger in this pie. They are saying that since a plug-in vehicle might not run the gas engine for several days, there could be a few minutes where the catalytic converter would not be working very efficiently until it heats up. That just seems silly. Who thinks you pollute more for running your Prius gas engine 20 minutes every third day, or running your engine an hour a day for 3 days .

Then there's this paragraph in the article.
That's not the topic of this thread.

The topic of this thread is A123's explicit admission to CARB that it cannot provide a 10 year warranty to its batteries since they don't last 10 years.

This is the same battery tech that was competing for Volt contract. What it means is that A123's battery is just as fragile as other lithium chemistry types and must be actively "pampered" to preserve long life required of a PHEV application.

This is what certain member of this board wasn't telling us, he was telling us how A123 batteries were indestructible after 3,000 cycles of quick charges, debunked by A123 themselves.

HyperMiler - of all the people, you know that device life is a stochastic function. Now if 10% of my battery packs fail before 10 years for whatever reason (could be unrelated to the cell), then I am stuck with a huge bill, and all my profit is wiped out. The liability is huge. Especially when the thing is an aftermarket non-critical item. Show me which aftermarket non-critical item is warranted for 10 years.

Now to take this sound business proposition as to mean A123 is lying that its cell do 3000 cycles at 90% DoD with capacity reduced only to 75% - it takes a certain warped mind to push such a theory.

What is your motive in dissing A123 so fervently? Why do you care?

Well excuse me. I just thought I'd point how CARB is coming at this totally slanted.

We've already gone over this. The fact of the matter is that A123's batteries are being installed by dozens of different garages, often times by whatever hack mechanic thinks he can figure it out, they aren't being installed in a controlled circumstance. I bet LG Chem wouldn't warranty their batteries for 10 years if they were just being thrown out on the open market for anyone to install in whatever car without the proper SOC limiters etc.

The batteries are an after market option that are for people who want them with the understanding that after 5 years, they're on their own, they're not OEM, they're not required for your vehicle to operate, and A123 shouldn't be liable for people who charge their battery 3 times a day after every 5 mile pizza delivery or whatever, or using their cars as generators etc. and go through 5,000 cycles in the first 7 or 8 years just for allowing people a way to save gas when they weren't forced to buy these add-ons in the first place.

Right now they have a 5 year warranty and they will probably last 10 years with normal use but the fact is that who knows, no one has had their batteries that long so until A123 has a better idea what kind of abuse these things can take, they are taking the course of action anyone else in their position would take.

Now to take this sound business proposition as to mean A123 is lying that its cell do 3000 cycles at 90% DoD with capacity reduced only to 75% - it takes a certain warped mind to push such a theory.
This is under ideal "pampered" condition, similar to LG's. Basically, there is no battery chemistry that last 10 years after man-handing, they all require pampering and would have similar life span if pampered.


What is your motive in dissing A123 so fervently?
Your marketing effort here.

they all require pampering and would have similar life span if pampered.

Well, you know that you are wrong. Different chemistries and different processes results in different life spans for batteries.

The real question is if LG is such a big deal and they have such a grasp of the market, then WHY ARE THEY HIDING the life cycle and calendar life of their lousy pLMS product? Why dont they publish the lab results?

You want to bet that they are hoping Volt owners not bothering to replace the batteries after 3 years because of the trouble, even if under warranty? Do tires have a 10 year warranty? Does existing Lead Acid batteries have 10 year warranties? That nobody else will offer 10 year warranties, and that GM is simply making this crap up to manipulate the market once again. That GM will NEVER offer 10 year warranties for the battery? That they hope Volt owners will stop bothering to plug in their EREV?

It sure is very easy and cheap for GM to select an inferior product and rationalize it under numerous guises. Like when they fly in their private jets to go to Washington to receive public money. I am sure they somehow rationalized that too.

GM is a market manipulator. Sorry that your brand of wallstreet cannot see through that.

This points out another example of trying to legislate the impossible. Silly liberals and their silly laws.

(replace 'liberal' with 'looter' if you like that better)

There have been some very good comments by posters as to why A123 should fight the regulations.

My question is why isn't the government working to make it easier for battery manufactures? These are tiny and fragile entities that need to be nurtured. Good batteries are the key to solving our energy problems (both grid and mobile). If there was any reason for government to get their hands into the situation, this would be it!

It's so true that nobody knows what is going to happen 10 years from now with these new batteries. However, I'm confident that if we are building out massive amounts of batteries and all the automobile manufactures are using several different battery models from different companies that the level of the technology will be far more advanced by the time we know than it is today.

If we squash out battery manufacturers with overly strict regulations you can bet that the technology level will be far less advanced that same ten years out.

We are spending money on all kinds of things from missions to mars to bridges to nowhere. Can anyone think of a funding project that is more important than working towards better electrical energy storage devices? Anyone?

The biggest problem with batteries today is the cost. Hands down. For new EV's and plug-in hybrids, manufactures must charge a premium to cover the risk of warrantee charges. Right when the most critical stage of EV adoption is taking place. That extra charge is putting the alternative just out of the reach of the consumer. That future warrantee charge won't even be an issue for several years!

The world needs this petroleum transition technology NOW and the cycle life risk issue is delaying everything. Imagine if tomorrow the price of these new lithium-ion batteries was half-price. Yes, the activity would be enormous. It would feed on itself and development would also accelerate. An ascending spiral - opposite to the death spiral.

We must nurture this technology! I can't believe decision makers don't see the importance of this. With good battery technology there is no energy problem. It would be solved.

Well, you know that you are wrong. Different chemistries and different processes results in different life spans for batteries.
Battery life killer is heat. If heat is properly managed, all battery lives can be prolonged.


The real question is if LG is such a big deal and they have such a grasp of the market, then WHY ARE THEY HIDING the life cycle and calendar life of their lousy pLMS product? Why dont they publish the lab results?
Because LG is not some upstart who needs to hype up its product to get funding. All information is disclosed to top automakers
on the "need to know" bases.


You want to bet that they are hoping Volt owners not bothering to replace the batteries after 3 years because of the trouble, even if under warranty?
That will never happen. That's like an engine failure and you wouldn't take your Volt to the dealership? What the hell?


Do tires have a 10 year warranty? Does existing Lead Acid batteries have 10 year warranties?
Hybrid/PHEV batteries are required to be covered by a 10 year warranty by CARB. Panasonic's nickel hydride batteries covered by a 10 year warranty, and LG's polymer batteries are covered by a 10 year warranty. A123 batteries aren't covered by 10 year warranty, because A123 admits its batteries don't last 10 years.


That nobody else will offer 10 year warranties
Panasonic and LG do.


It sure is very easy and cheap for GM to select an inferior product and rationalize it under numerous guises.
Not when GM's being bailed out. GM took a lot of heat for buying foreign batteries under government bailout and had to resort to fake CKD operation(Will assemble CKD kit shipped by LG) to give a cover of "US assembly".

My question is why isn't the government working to make it easier for battery manufactures? These are tiny and fragile entities that need to be nurtured.
Treehuggers of California don't care. To them, Japanese made Prius is good while American made Tahoe is evil.

If foreign batteries deliver 10 year warranty, then it's good.
If American batteries can't deliver 10 year warranty and cost more than foreign batteries, then it's bad.

My question is why isn't the government working to make it easier for battery manufactures?


My answer is: That is NOT the function of the government. PERIOD.

Show me where in the Constitution that the government is appointed the responsibility for supporting industry. You can't because it's not there.


Get the government to stay OUT of the whole situation (nix this CARB BS WRT battery warranty) and let the free market do it's thing.


THAT way, the people that want the technology will pay for it, instead of ALL of us paying for it.

All this technology is doing is helping reduce pollution and help with global warming. Installing these batteries in no way effecting the emissions system (it will reduce total emissions), so why does CARB care. Is anybody else being forced to accept such a liability for aftermarket products. Are the rest of the components in the upgrade required to last 10 years, 150,000 miles to, because all it would take is a failure in one of the other components that could damage the A123 batteries. If I was A123 I wouldn't warranty any aftermarket installations period.

CARB has done some pretty stupid things in the past, but this has got to be the dumbest.

Battery life killer is heat. If heat is properly managed, all battery lives can be prolonged.

HyperMiler, you sure write a lot of nonsense. Unfortunately I dont have much time to reply to your points. I have to turn in a pro-forma, and then I have to write a letter-to-the-editor, and then I have to work on litigation, and then develop a simulation all in a matter of days.

To answer your assertion above: What is the impedance of the A123 cell? Then calculate me the amount of heat generated by the cell. Then convert that to temperature. Then apply that to a real world situation like the Volt.

Same exercise for LG.

Can you do that, or are you just making things up - like "A123 will overheat".

Unlike the crappy LG pLMS cells that may have a tendency to explode, the A123 cells generate next to none heat. Its right there in their spec sheet (which you dismiss as "marketing lies", I know).

For a non-engineer, you talk too much. Time for you to go back to business commerce school and cross register in physics, maybe?

What did you major in?

Unfortunately I dont have much time to reply to your points.
Of course you do, based on the amount of your activity here.


To answer your assertion above: What is the impedance of the A123 cell?
Low, that's what you told us and I believe you. Meaning more cells are needed and the amount of total heat generated from the pack during peak power draw is similar to other battery chemistry.

less heat per cell x more cells needed = similar amount of heat generated during power draw.

The reality is A123 cells do generate heat at power draw, and they are susceptible to heat-induced damage just as other chemistry types. This is the reason why A123 would not warrant its Hymotion battery packs to 10 years as required by CARB.


Unlike the crappy LG pLMS cells that may have a tendency to explode
It doesn't according to GM and Hyundai. Hyundai actually had a nice presentation about how its LG battery pack was running cooler than Toyota's Prius pack.


the A123 cells generate next to none heat.
Then why don't A123 cells last 10 years especially when heat is the battery killer.

My answer is: That is NOT the function of the government. PERIOD.
Tell that to Japanese, Chinese, and Korean governments with booming battery industry. Or to Bob Lutz who was talking about how Korean government funded some massive research complex for LG and how this was instrumental in LG's win. The result becomes obvious, A123 lost to LG. It's like some poor inner city kid going up against pampered rich spoiled kid with all the life's privileges. You wouldn't call that a fair competition, would you?


Get the government to stay OUT of the whole situation
Transistor and computer came from government(military) research, right?

Tell that to Japanese, Chinese, and Korean governments with booming battery industry. Or to Bob Lutz who was talking about how Korean government funded some massive research complex for LG and how this was instrumental in LG's win. The result becomes obvious, A123 lost to LG. It's like some poor inner city kid going up against pampered rich spoiled kid with all the life's privileges. You wouldn't call that a fair competition, would you?


Transistor and computer came from government(military) research, right?

The Japanese, Chinese and Koreans all come from imperial forms of government. Their systems are not founded on the rights of the people. They are governments and subjects.

As for the transistor, I cannot recall the circumstances that brought it about, but I do recall having an instructor in technical school who, back in the day, worked for IBM. Several teams were given transistors and told to figure out how they could be used. His team made a calculator. They didn't design it, or theorize, they BUILT it.

Innovation sometimes does come from the military, especially during war, but a lot of it comes from the minds of industry.


Look at what is happening now. The Volt didn't come about because the .gov said 'build one or else'. It came about because GM (FINALLY) saw that there is/will be a DEMAND for it.