Lyle just wrote:

"The idea that a small panel of solar cells sitting on the roof in sunlight even for hours could do much to actually recharge the battery and justify its expense are unfortunately unrealistic at the present time."




Lyle, Remember that it’s just YOUR opinion that solar panels are only for PR.

I have argued throughout the forums that SOTS (Solar on the Surface) is a great technology. Perhaps not for the actual moving of the vehicle (can only get around 5 miles on a sunny day in Texas) but for having enhanced functionality that even car 1.0 could not give us. Things like cabin ventilation on a hot day, always-on Internet services and remote functions, advanced security, charging at places like the airport and remote locations, etc.

If you are interested in this topic please go to the forum section and hit the search button. Type in SOTS and you will get hundreds of posts and arguments.

I think after you look at the big picture you may also disagree with Lyle about the usefulness of remote solar power - it's the only way you can get energy into your vehicle at remote locations. Car 2.0 is about to become much more than what we once thought a car could do.

I vote YES for a SOTS option.

I wish it was possible for the solar panel to provide enough power to fully charge a drained battery in a few hours, but that is limited by the energy delivered by the sun and the area available on the surface of the car.

Still, Texas lists a number of good reasons to provide the solar panel. I personally like the idea that, when the car is parked in the sun, it could be topping off the battery. Aside from the cost, I don't really see any downsides to having the solar panel option for the car. If it's not too expensive, I'd be inclined to go for it. If done properly, it would look cool, too :cool:

I think what Lyle is against is any delay or added expense to the Volt program for the sake of a marginal feature. I agree. Many will say that because it is an optional feature, it won't add any cost to the vehicle for those that don't want it. They're wrong. Any option has to be engineered, tested and integrated into the whole package. This takes time and money as well as commitments to suppliers.

Being that they are solar cells, we know this option is not going to be cheap. We also know that the amount of surface available isn't going to generate much power, so the benefits of this system are likely to be minor. In the case of the Prius, it seems that all it does is run a circulation fan. So in the end, when the consumer is considering the option and it's functionality and balances that against the considerable cost, they are likely to skip it. Still, GM has considerable R&D costs and minimum purchases of this option from suppliers, so they stand to lose a fair amount of money on it.

What they should do is encourage the aftermarket to develop this feature for the Volt. That way all the burden and liability is on somebody else. The Solar roof is mostly a gimmick and PR marketing. Don't slow the Volt down or add to the cost just for a little bragging rights.

I think what Lyle is against is any delay or added expense to the Volt program for the sake of a marginal feature. I agree. Many will say that because it is an optional feature, it won't add any cost to the vehicle for those that don't want it. They're wrong. Any option has to be engineered, tested and integrated into the whole package. This takes time and money as well as commitments to suppliers.

Being that they are solar cells, we know this option is not going to be cheap. We also know that the amount of surface available isn't going to generate much power, so the benefits of this system are likely to be minor. In the case of the Prius, it seems that all it does is run a circulation fan. So in the end, when the consumer is considering the option and it's functionality and balances that against the considerable cost, they are likely to skip it. Still, GM has considerable R&D costs and minimum purchases of this option from suppliers, so they stand to lose a fair amount of money on it.

What they should do is encourage the aftermarket to develop this feature for the Volt. That way all the burden and liability is on somebody else. The Solar roof is mostly a gimmick and PR marketing. Don't slow the Volt down or add to the cost just for a little bragging rights.





1) Toyota figured out how to do it and is bringing their plug-in Prius out a year earlier than GM so you are wrong about it causing a delay.

2) Specific details were not giving on how the new Pruis option will integrate with the system. I heard it was going to be able to run the fully electric A/C unit in some capacity.

3) I don't think an option will delay the entire program. Are you crazy? There is more than one team working on this thing. It's called parallel development.


I understand that you don't want the Volt delayed and if that was the case then I would also say yes, wait until the next year to bring out the option. However, The Prius will be out and will have it. It would look a bit weak that GM was unable to pull it off. Unable to make it happen. It will add new functionality to car 2.0 and only Toyota will have it. They will also have a year head start for solar option 2.0 and so on. I think many people that don't "get it" will not be able to understand until the entire system is flushed out and it becomes more obvious. Kind of like a finished house. However, I think there will be enough Volt buyers out there that can see the house though the framing and will choose the solar roof option. Those that don't want the option don't have to check the box. It will not hurt development, it will help it. Solar - Batteries - EVs. It's the winning combination, even if some people don't see it yet. ;)

If a solar could provide a useful benefit (everyone will have differing benefits) I would opt for a solar panel (as long as I could still have a sunroof.)

One of the things I would consider a benefit would be if the solar panel could power a heating or cooling unit for the interior of the automobile.

Another benefit would be if it could power an advanced security system. I would like to see a closed curcuit video system. With increased availability of onboard storage (DVD based nav systems) which offer gigabytes of data room I could foresee a monitoring system using the storage device.

A vehicle is less likely to be broken into if the person could be caught on video and an image used to locate them.

I've considered installing an after market unit in my vehicle because I now park my car on the street and I have noticed a number of cars have been broken into since September. The cost of the system wasn't worth it to me though, it's easier and cheaper to just leave the car empty and leave nothing in sight to tempt someone to break in. If they don't see anything they have no need to break in.

If a solar could provide a useful benefit (everyone will have differing benefits) I would opt for a solar panel (as long as I could still have a sunroof.)
Dude, having a solar panel on top of your car is the ultimate "sun roof"!! :D

Im all for harnessing solar energy.

I also believe advanced technology solar cells will be more efficient.

My point is that using commercially widespread technology and the limited space on the roof, the current generated in the space of a few hours of sunlight wouldn't add much energy to the battery, and what little it did wouldn't justify the cost of that panel.

But you're right, its only my opinion.

Thanks for pointing it out, and all your support.
Lyle

Unless you are parking in a parking garage, your car would be trickle charging all day. So even if 16 hours of solar charging only got you 1 kWh. That's good enough to give you 5 or 6 miles more range. That's how far I drive to school. So, granted that's only saving you like 10 cents of electricity and would probably never actually pay for itself even after 15 years, it would be a great precedence for the greeniness of the Volt to have solar panels on the Gen 1 Volts because the following models would have to follow suit.

CalgaryVolt has a sweet idea of an optional camera system. Can you imagine being a thief and seeing a sticker in the window that the car is taking pictures every 10 seconds or so of it's surroundings. Nobody would touch it. It doesn't seem like it should cost all that much. You would just need 4 small 2 megapixel cameras in each direction (located in the center console) that took pictures and stored them on an 8 gig SD card or something, that would hold a few days worth of pictures. Have it set to delete the oldest pictures as it takes new ones automatically. I'm sure it would be worth $800 or so to a lot of people and would probably cost GM half that.

Here's another cool idea for the Volt. Have powered windows that can be operated while the car is turned off.

CalgaryVolt has a sweet idea of an optional camera system. Can you imagine being a thief and seeing a sticker in the window that the car is taking pictures every 10 seconds or so of it's surroundings. Nobody would touch it.

Just put up a dummy camera with a blinking LED and a sticker. You can do that now for next to nothing. Here in Oakland, if you brought video of somebody breaking into your car to them, they would just laugh at you and tell you to just put it up on YouTube.

Just put up a dummy camera with a blinking LED and a sticker. You can do that now for next to nothing. Here in Oakland, if you brought video of somebody breaking into your car to them, they would just laugh at you and tell you to just put it up on YouTube.

That's an idea. What would they do if you took it to a lawyer?

Sad to say if it were in Seattle the cops would laugh at the video too.

Then again, a solar car top in Seattle...I need to think about that for a bit :)

Im all for harnessing solar energy.

I also believe advanced technology solar cells will be more efficient.

My point is that using commercially widespread technology and the limited space on the roof, the current generated in the space of a few hours of sunlight wouldn't add much energy to the battery, and what little it did wouldn't justify the cost of that panel.

But you're right, its only my opinion.

Thanks for pointing it out, and all your support.
Lyle

Don't want to kiss up to Lyle but I agree, except for the "feel good" factor, those cell won't had up much to the battery. The best use is to keep the car cool on warm day reducing the use of AC (like Fisker plans to do), but you can acheive the same by rolling down windows...

I think Texas is trying to make a big thing about very little.

Ok, Toyota will offer it... and? If adding 2K or 3K to your car to get it and feel good about it is what you want, good for you Texas. I do beleive this is more about PR then anything else. You would be better off keeping that money and actually buy something to save/generate energy for your house.

And then we get people saying the Volt cost too much or is not coming out fast enough :cool::eek:

Don't want to kiss up to Lyle but I agree, except for the "feel good" factor, those cell won't had up much to the battery. The best use is to keep the car cool on warm day reducing the use of AC (like Fisker plans to do), but you can acheive the same by rolling down windows...

I think Texas is trying to make a big thing about very little.

Ok, Toyota will offer it... and? If adding 2K or 3K to your car to get it and feel good about it is what you want, good for you Texas. I do beleive this is more about PR then anything else. You would be better off keeping that money and actually buy something to save/generate energy for your house.

And then we get people saying the Volt cost too much or is not coming out fast enough :cool::eek:





1) Tell that to the guy that is going to drive out of the desert one day going 5 miles a day using only the power of the sun. You know it's going to happen... Well, tell that guy it's all PR. Yes, I’m joking. :)

2) If you want to save money just buy a used Chevy Geo. Hard to argue with that financial decision. While you are at it buy your clothes at Wal-Mart.

3) Don't feel shame. It's only natural to kiss the boss' butt. ;)


It's OK if you think I'm making too much out of it. I just see solar power becoming a much bigger part of our lives. I know only the framing is up but I can see the glorious mansion as the sun sets and the reflected beams hit the soon to be finished siding.

1) Tell that to the guy that is going to drive out of the desert one day going 5 miles a day using only the power of the sun. You know it's going to happen... Well, tell that guy it's all PR. Yes, I’m joking. :)

2) If you want to save money just buy a used Chevy Geo. Hard to argue with that financial decision. While you are at it buy your clothes at Wal-Mart.

3) Don't feel shame. It's only natural to kiss the boss' butt. ;)


It's OK if you think I'm making too much out of it. I just see solar power becoming a much bigger part of our lives. I know only the framing is up but I can see the glorious mansion as the sun sets and the reflected beams hit the soon to be finished siding.

Hey I love solar power too, it's just you went out and put words and intentions to Lyle when you know the actual gain is more about how it makes you feel then the actual energy input you get NOW. In the future, sure your dream will happen, but NOW, it's just that a dream that makes you feel good.

Jokes as much as you want but what I said is true, take that money and put into a solar installation for your home, dollar for dollar you will generate/safe more energy.

My 2 cents:

-Developing a solar option is probably too late now if GM hasn't already been designing for it. If they have been then it won't add a second to the delivery of the first Volt.

-It need not and shouldn't affect the cost of the base Volt. The onky way GM would amortize development or any other costs associated with a solar option would be if they expected it to just be a PR stunt that would not actually sell. If this how they see it then it shouldn't be done.

-Being a South Floridian, I can see value in an option that would keep interior temperatures within 15 degrees of ambient. There are probably about 100 million other Americans in this demographic.

-Solar to power a camera or other low power devices sounds interesting. I'm a little concerned about theft with a $15,000 (or so) battery but what about nighttime when most thefts occur. I guess the traction battery could handle this. For a camera, I would an internet link to go with it. Store the video onboard doesn't make sense.

-If a solar option could also provide 2-5 miles of range on most days, that would be of value to me. Not because of the dime I save in electricity but because I don't have a garage and my regular daily driving is less than five miles. I have a carport that my wife has turned into a patio. We have a one car driveway in front of the patio. I would have change our parking or driveway situation which will cost a lot more than the option. I guess I've got the ideal scenario for this option.

-Sorry Calgaryvolt, I don't see a solar option offering much cold weather heating benefit. The glass does a good job when the sun is out and solar won't help at the other times when you need it the most.

I would still prefer a emergency household backup power option if I had to decide between this and solar.

Just to add another voice (or the same voice) because I've said it before, I badly want a solar option for cooling for the Phoenix heat.

All we are saying... Is give solar a chance. (sing using Give Peace a Chance melody)


Someone posted above that I know the solar option is only for PR. Again, I strongly disagree that it's only for PR. It does have some PR merit that will justify the expense to GM and to many users but I feel the extra functionality is what will justify it for many others, including myself!

Hey I'm all for a solar option....but at >5k, it'll be the least sold option. Unless the entire first run is sold to wealthy people that just like to show off.

Hey I'm all for a solar option....but at >5k, it'll be the least sold option. Unless the entire first run is sold to wealthy people that just like to show off.



Do you have a reference to the price of the solar option or did you just pull that out of your butt?

Lyle just wrote:

"The idea that a small panel of solar cells sitting on the roof in sunlight even for hours could do much to actually recharge the battery and justify its expense are unfortunately unrealistic at the present time."




Lyle, Remember that it’s just YOUR opinion that solar panels are only for PR.

I have argued throughout the forums that SOTS (Solar on the Surface) is a great technology. Perhaps not for the actual moving of the vehicle (can only get around 5 miles on a sunny day in Texas) but for having enhanced functionality that even car 1.0 could not give us. Things like cabin ventilation on a hot day, always-on Internet services and remote functions, advanced security, charging at places like the airport and remote locations, etc.

If you are interested in this topic please go to the forum section and hit the search button. Type in SOTS and you will get hundreds of posts and arguments.

I think after you look at the big picture you may also disagree with Lyle about the usefulness of remote solar power - it's the only way you can get energy into your vehicle at remote locations. Car 2.0 is about to become much more than what we once thought a car could do.

I vote YES for a SOTS option.

I agree with everything you said.

BTW, can you really get 5 miles worth of charge on a sunny day in Texas? That would actually be pretty nice. 5 miles a day means you're getting 150 free miles / month or 1800 free miles per year. Even for someone like me with a 60 mile roundtrip commute it means 2 1/2 trips to work and back free every month out of 22 which is > 10%.

I agree with everything you said.

BTW, can you really get 5 miles worth of charge on a sunny day in Texas? That would actually be pretty nice. 5 miles a day means you're getting 150 free miles / month or 1800 free miles per year. Even for someone like me with a 60 mile roundtrip commute it means 2 1/2 trips to work and back free every month out of 22 which is > 10%.






Yes, it's possible according to the calculations that are posted in this forum (use the search button if you are interested in the details). There is also a company that sells a solar powered Prius that claims something outrageous like 20 miles a day. I doubt that but they would be a good reference to call and ask (http://www.solarelectricalvehicles.com/ - the Toyota Prius can operate up to 20 miles per day in electric mode). You can even buy one and test it yourself or maybe they have customer testimonials. If you look at some of the popular small car designs that are being driven around Europe and Japan (like small boxes) you can even imagine that one day you could cover a vast amount of surface area, including the windows. You never know, we might have solar paint available in 10 years. It might be very possible to complete your normal daily drive to work using only the power of the sun. It's all depends on how much area you cover, where you live and how far and fast you drive to work.

Imagine an Aptera-like vehicle with excellent aerodynamics and more solar surface area covered with an inexpensive and efficient solar coating. Who knows what is possible. Maybe Lyle will someday use only the power of the sun to drive to his office. That would be great! ;)

I agree with everything you said.

BTW, can you really get 5 miles worth of charge on a sunny day in Texas? That would actually be pretty nice. 5 miles a day means you're getting 150 free miles / month or 1800 free miles per year. Even for someone like me with a 60 mile roundtrip commute it means 2 1/2 trips to work and back free every month out of 22 which is > 10%.

How much would you be willing to pay for the solar panel option on the Volt? Hmmm . . . could be a good subject for a poll . . .

Do you have a reference to the price of the solar option or did you just pull that out of your butt?

IIRC that was the suggested price that was given for the option.

How much would you be willing to pay for the solar panel option on the Volt? Hmmm . . . could be a good subject for a poll . . .

That would be worthwhile. I'm sure there will be plenty of $0 votes. My vote would be $1500 for at least 150W if it can be used to circulate air in the cabin and to charge the battery.

You hear that buzzing sound??? It's your morning alarm clock, wake up, you are dreaming... Adding 5K, doesn't add any weight to car either and it will be soooo cheap, they will actually give it away.

You do have the right to love and dream about solar power, but to event insinuate the actual performance... my god, we went from something that barely run your AC to keep the car cool to adding 5K to your daily commute.

You hear that buzzing sound??? It's your morning alarm clock, wake up, you are dreaming... Adding 5K, doesn't add any weight to car either and it will be soooo cheap, they will actually give it away.

You do have the right to love and dream about solar power, but to event insinuate the actual performance... my god, we went from something that barely run your AC to keep the car cool to adding 5K to your daily commute.


This is no dream. You can buy it today. You didn't know that? Meet the Solar Prius:

http://www.toyoland.com/photos/plugin/solar-prius.jpg

Anyway, You need a plug-in Prius because the normal battery could run out of capacity on a hot sunny day. Nice! I wonder if anyone installed a Hymotion system into a Solar Prius yet. The games are just beginning.

This is no dream. You can buy it today. You didn't know that? Meet the Solar Prius:

http://www.toyoland.com/photos/plugin/solar-prius.jpg

Anyway, You need a plug-in Prius because the normal battery could run out of capacity on a hot sunny day. Nice! I wonder if anyone installed a Hymotion system into a Solar Prius yet. The games are just beginning.

Texas, are you telling me that Prius with this solar planel had 5K miles everyday to its driving range on pure EV (since it's a prius, we can't say pure EV, but just for the sake of playing/dreaming). Is that what your are saying, if so, I want to see the proof... no smart talk, the proof... if not... tune it down.

I just measured my Prius roof in the same location as seen in the picture: it's approximately 60" long by 45" wide (it tapers from 46" to 44" front to rear).

Being solar-challenged I won't try the math, maybe someone here could take those dimensions and see how the claims pencil out.

How much would you be willing to pay for the solar panel option on the Volt? Hmmm . . . could be a good subject for a poll . . .

Well since I live in Minnesota, not much. Its not just that we don't get much sun around here, its also that I would have my car parked in a garage most of the winter when I'm not at work making the solar panel useless.

If I lived in Texas and could really get 5 miles on a sunny day, let's see...

We know that a full charge is supposed to cost around 85 cents for 40 miles so 5 miles == 10.6 cents / day or $3.18 / month.

Now from previous calculations, I figured a lease would be about $650 / month with nothing down. So working backwards, I find that adding $195 to the price of the car would result in an increase in payment of about $3.18 / month.

So for it to be a push right away, it would have to be about a $200 option.

Now if I you couldn't plug in at work it would be a different story.

Now you're replacing gas instead of electricity so its more valuable.

Let's see...

Let's assume gas is $4 / gallon by the time the Volt comes out. It get's 50 miles / gallon on gas so 5 miles is worth 40 cents or about 3.77 times as much.

By the same calculations, I now get $736 as the break even point.

Texas, are you telling me that Prius with this solar planel had 5K miles everyday to its driving range on pure EV (since it's a prius, we can't say pure EV, but just for the sake of playing/dreaming). Is that what your are saying, if so, I want to see the proof... no smart talk, the proof... if not... tune it down.




What exact proof would you desire? I would love to drag you from behind the thing so you would "feel" each and every mile. However, that's not PC.

Oh and you use either 5K or 5 miles. Not 5K miles. ;)


Also, you can say pure EV if you drive under 32 mph. The newer Prius can go faster all electric.

To check out the details and to call the manufacturer for actual testing go to: http://www.solarelectricalvehicles.com/

I just measured my Prius roof in the same location as seen in the picture: it's approximately 60" long by 45" wide (it tapers from 46" to 44" front to rear).

Being solar-challenged I won't try the math, maybe someone here could take those dimensions and see how the claims pencil out.

For a convenient approximation, we'll assume your constant 45" width. Let's convert to metric: 60" = 1.524m and 45" = 1.143m. This gives an area of 1.742m^2.

At the Earth's surface, insolation is about 1,000W per square meter - on a clear day with the sun directly overhead. Since the roof area is 1.742m^w, we would get 1.742kW of solar energy delivered to the roof area specified.

Now you must include the efficiency of the solar panel, since you cannot convert sunlight to energy with 100% efficiency. Commercially available solar cells are around 10-20% efficient. Using a mid-range figure of 15% efficiency gives us
261.3W.

The sun is not always overhead, and the sky is not always clear. Assume four hours of good, direct sun per day and you get 1.045kWh. YMMV. Here in Oregon, the annual energy contribution of the rooftop solar cell would be questionable.

Assume four hours of good, direct sun per day and you get 1.045kWh.

That's more than I'd imagined. Were that on a Volt where it will use about 200W/hr per mile (I think that's the working number), there's the 5 miles I've seen bounced around. As you alluded to, it's usefulness will vary with geography.

That's more than I'd imagined. Were that on a Volt where it will use about 200W/hr per mile (I think that's the working number), there's the 5 miles I've seen bounced around. As you alluded to, it's usefulness will vary with geography.
Well, that 1.045kWh is pretty much a maximum figure, and it would go down pretty fast from there. The roof's surface isn't angled so the sun's rays will strike at 90 degrees, so some power will be lost. You get better sun angles in summer (latitude + 23.5 degrees on summer solstice) and worse angles in winter (latitude - 23.5 degrees on winter solstice).

If you got an annual average of 500Wh/day, I'd think you'd be doing quite well. That's not even taking weather effects into account.

What exact proof would you desire? I would love to drag you from behind the thing so you would "feel" each and every mile. However, that's not PC.

Oh and you use either 5K or 5 miles. Not 5K miles. ;)


Also, you can say pure EV if you drive under 32 mph. The newer Prius can go faster all electric.

To check out the details and to call the manufacturer for actual testing go to: http://www.solarelectricalvehicles.com/

Ok, small typo ;) 5 miles...

I like this part


Conclusions

The feasibility of installing an aftermarket photovoltaic module on a Toyota Prius has been shown. The economic return from the conversion of a stock Prius to a PV Prius is dependant upon the nominal daily trip length, the price of gasoline required to operate the gasoline engine, actual fuel efficiency of the gasoline engine, the number of Wh/mile and the number of Wh provided by the solar module.

With further modification of a PV Prius to increase the primary motive battery capacity and the use of electricity from a residential PV system to charge the high-capacity battery a Total PV Prius could be operated totally on energy from the sun!


They should have added and if you drive under 32 mph and live in Texas.

That's still a lot of "if", but hey, if it makes you feel good, go for it, it's your money after all.

I wonder if anyone thought of a roof-mounted, fold-down, flip-up wind power generator? Heck the gulf coast Volt owners would never need to plug in during hurricane season :p

Wish I knew how to Photo Shop.

I wonder if anyone thought of a roof-mounted, fold-down, flip-up wind power generator? Heck the gulf coast Volt owners would never need to plug in during hurricane season :p

Wish I knew how to Photo Shop.

Just get a wind turbine and carry it around and set it up next to the volt.

I wonder if anyone thought of a roof-mounted, fold-down, flip-up wind power generator? Heck the gulf coast Volt owners would never need to plug in during hurricane season :p

Wish I knew how to Photo Shop.






Just search this forum. I even posted a picture of a guy and his electric van with said device all set up and running. You can also search the web. It's just a question of cost and convenience. If you live in a windy area and don't mind setting it up then it could work nicely for you, depending on the situation.

I think people just need to look at what they have and what they can do. There are so many options out there. Up until now, nobody thought the issue of using gasoline needed any attention. However, after this past summer many people are standing to attention. ;)

I guess you could use orbital mirrors to increase the amount of
solar light the surface receives...