So much for the alleged stealing of technology. Some of you just can not accept the facts that BYD is technologically superior.

After my little research, I am convinced BYD already had an early version of its current battery (known as ET-Power) and a few concept EV cars, before A123 even started negotiating with chinese battery manufactures. Please point out where I was wrong or in accurate. Thanks.

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year 1998
----------
1998 - BYD started its secret EV project with 20 best engineers, according to this story from WSJ
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123172034731572313.html?mod=special_page_campaig n2008_mostpop

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year 2002
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BYD created its EV department with hundrends of researchers, according to this story:
http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080304.039/byd-present-f3-dm-electric-research-vehicle-in-geneva

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year 2003
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From the same news story above:
BYD AUTO, a subsidiary of BYD Group, came into existence in 2003 when BYD Group acquired the Tsinchuan Automobile Company, which had a history of several decades.

Also in 2003, BYD trial-manufactured a pure EV known as "Flyer BEV"

Also in 2003, BYD started rumoring its second generation battery technology known as ET-Power; it is the same battery in its EV today.

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year 2004
----------
From the same news story above:
BYD Auto demostrated a pure EV model known as "EF3" as an "all electronic taxi" on 8th Beijing International Auto Show. This prototype shocked Japanese reporters from NHK and Newslab from Europe.

BYD's press release (in chinese) confirmed the top speed is 77mph and the range is 217miles for EF3
http://www.bydauto.com.cn/information/release/page/detail_page.php?id=158&t=news

here is a picture of EF3, the pure EV taxi that never went into production. EF3 probably stands for Electronic F3, and in 2008 the upgraded model is named F3E.
http://www.bydauto.com.cn/UserFiles/news_pic/200469142939.jpg

2004 is also of great significance to BYD that in the 6th China Hi-tech Fair, BYD demonstrated its 2nd generation ET-Power battery and a new EV concept car including features such as "independent four-wheel-drive with four hub motor, double wishbone independent suspension, wire steering systems, aluminum alloy frame, bisected door and non-B column body, which demonstrate BYD R&D capability in EV. "

In an interview on June 11th, 2004, the CEO of BYD talked about three EV concept cars. The ET-Power car, and the electronic taxi, and a hybrid car(I assume this is now called Dual Mode). He said BYD is behind the world in terms of automobile technology, but BYD "leads the world" for at least 3 years in EV battery technology. The ET-Power car has four independent electronic motor. So all 4 wheels can operate independently such as one can go forward and others can go backward, making the turn radius to be 0. The hybrid car in 2004 can already regenerate electricity during braking.

On BYD's technology, the CEO said BYD applies for 600+ patents in 2004, and R&D cost is very high. On battery technology BYD successfully defeated Panasonic and Toshiba.
http://www.bydauto.com.cn/information/release/page/detail_page.php?id=155&t=news


--------------------
year 2005/2006
--------------------
The earliest I can find is in 2005, A123 System started negotiations with another chinese battery manufacture, BAK, on manufacture of its battery. According to the next 2006 news story from Forbes,

"BAK also entered into a contract manufacturing partnership with A123 Systems, which supplies Nano-Phosphate Li-ion batteries based on technology developed at the Massachussets Institute of Technology.

The two firms have collaborated since early 2005 on the design, development, and production of A123's first product. High volume production of these products has already begun, according to the statement.
"

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2006/02/09/afx2515289.html

In mid-2005, BYD launched its first car, a small sedan called the F3. F3 is gas powered.

In January 2006, BYD established its Electric Vehicle Institute, which focused on not only the R&D of pure electric passenger car, but also new energy vehicle like hybrid electric vehicle (HEV).

This sounds like how far Apple has come in about as much time since Steve Jobs took the reigns. I'm sure he'd tell you how amazing it is when you learn the definition of "innovate"

innovate |ˈinəˌvāt|
verb [ intrans. ]
make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products

(from the built in Mac OS X dictionary, it took me 1.5 seconds to open my dictionary and look it up, I'm expecting Windows to copy this 5 year old Mac feature in about another 5 years.)

and quit sitting on your hands expecting people to be perfectly loyal to your brand no matter what crap you put your logo on.

Hopefully this story has a happy ending and GM has learned their lesson.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.autosalvagerecyclers.com/newarrpic/new%2520arrivals%2520007.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.autosalvagerecyclers.com/newarrivals.htm&usg=__okfoBT5z0gLCZWhxhuTy1a4Zpmo=&h=300&w=300&sz=22&hl=en&start=20&um=1&tbnid=yjsf-ww0k-FLFM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%252798%2Bcavalier%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den %26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us%26sa%3DN

A nice gallery of what American cars look like after 10 years.

Below is the extract from BYD annual report 2007. Here is the profile of BYD chairman. He is actually a battery professional, not a normal businessman. I believe the company atmosphere will highly affected by the management style, if your chairman is deeply interest in technology, most likely his company will be technology-oriented.

BYD listed company website (http://www.bydit.com/)

----------------------------------------------------------------

Wang Chuan-fu
Mr. Wang, aged 42, president of the Company, is a senior
engineer. Mr. Wang was appointed as an Executive Director with
effect from 11th June 2002. He is responsible for overseeing the
general operation of the Group and determining the business
strategies for the Group. He graduated from 中南工業大學
(Central South Industrial University of Technology) in the PRC in
1987, with a bachelor degree major in metallurgy physical
chemistry and 北京有色金屬研究總院(Beijing Non-Ferrous
Research Institute) in the PRC in 1990 with a master degree major
in metallurgy physical chemistry. He held the position of vice
supervisor in 北京有色金屬研究總院(Beijing Non-Ferrous Research
Institute) from 1990 to 1995. From June 1993 to November 1994,
he held the position of general manager in 深圳市比格電池有限
公司(Shenzhen Bi Ge Battery Co. Limited). In February 1995, he
founded 深圳市比亞迪實業有限公司 (Shenzhen BYD Battery
Company Limited) (“BYD Industries”) with Mr. Xia and Mr. Lu and
took the position of chairman. Due to the prominent operating
results of BYD Industries and 深圳市比亞迪鋰電池有限公司
(Shenzhen BYD Lithium Battery Company Limited) (“BYD Lithiumion”),
he was awarded with — 深圳市青年科技專家－中銀集團
獎(Bank of China Group Award of Young Technology Expert in
Shenzhen), the first prize of 彭年科技獎 (Pengnian Technology
Medal), 鵬城青年創造勳章(Pengcheng Young Creative Medal).
Mr. Wang, being a technology expert, enjoyed special allowances
from the State Council, and was elected the Deputy of the
Shenzhen Municipal People’s Congress in March 2000. In 2002,
he was awarded with 紫荊花傑出企業家獎(Bauhinia
Outstanding Entrepreneur) in Hong Kong. In June 2003, he was
awarded Star of Asia by BusinessWeek. On 4th November
2004, he was awarded with 二零零四年深圳市市長獎(Mayor
award of Shenzhen in 2004) by the Shenzhen Municipal
Government. In May 2005, he was elected member of the
Standing Committee of the Shenzhen Municipal People’s
Congress. He is a non-executive director and the chairman of
BYD Electronic (International) Company Limited (Stock Code:
285).

ant,

If BYD is lead by a technologist, then they are going to need someone like Buffet to show them how to make money.

The false assumption made here is that the first automotive battery BYD worked on was of Iron Phosphate type. It almost certainly was not, BYD didn't work on Iron Phosphate type until they obtained trade secrets from A123's Chinese plant workers.

If BYD is lead by a technologist, then they are going to need someone like Buffet to show them how to make money

Jason,

Right. Don't trust me. You can go to the company website (www.bydit.com). look at their annual reports (audit by America big 4 account firm - Ernest and Young), you will see their profit, sales, growth rate. If you look at their car sales, you will see they are growth at 100% per year.

If you look at their history, you will see their vision and insight for the market. They also have the courge to say "NO" to the financial market, while fund managers are pushing them to maxmize profit every single quarter. BYD refuse and concern more about long term goals and profit.

I would say the chairman is a enterpreneur with storng believe of technology.

In the interview of "David Skol", He always mention is the "Cost saving", "Vision" and "Research ability" attract Buffett. It do not only cover electric car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdgNyahSQfM

Hope it helps

The false assumption made here is that the first automotive battery BYD worked on was of Iron Phosphate type. It almost certainly was not, BYD didn't work on Iron Phosphate type until they obtained trade secrets from A123's Chinese plant workers.

Furthermore, the IP in dispute is not the LFP patent held by Goodenough/HQ/Phostec, but has to do with the doping patent and/or the cathode nano-structure patent.

BYD is on thin ice, but its just sad that instead of pooling their resources and fighting the monopoly capitalist corporations like GM and LG and Hyundai, BYD and A123 are fighting one another. I am sure GM and the rest of the market leechers are rubbing their hands in glee.

1. Can any of you shed some lights on how you reached the following conclusion?


Furthermore, the IP in dispute is not the LFP patent held by Goodenough/HQ/Phostec, but has to do with the doping patent and/or the cathode nano-structure patent.

2. I am interested in how A123 worked around the LFP patent hold by Goodenough?

3. I am also interested in your conclusion that BYD stealing from A123. Which company sold what to BYD and when? Is it your speculation or you have evidence?

4. There are a dozen or more companies with some level of success on LFP and there are at least a handful of them in China also claim so. In your opinion, can any one of them produce a battery cell in the caliber of current BYD's without stealing A123's manufacture secret?

5. This is one chinese company start producing LFP cathode since 2003 using their own technology. Currently the production capacity is more than 200 tone per year.
http://www.stl-energy.com.cn/news_detail.asp?id=45
So I guess some one else can succeed before A123 shares its secret in 2005? Is that too hard to imagine?

6. Why didn't A123 sue Phostech? How can Phostech produce LFP cathode using nano tech without permissions from A123? It seems technology IPs are owned as following:
Carbon Coating: Phostech, Valence
Small Particle Size: A123, Phostech
Metal Doping: Valence
Interestingly A123 is not the dominate player as some people suggested.

7. Where do these lawsuits stand today?

"On January 31, 2007, Valence filed a lawsuit against Phostech Lithium Inc. in the Federal Court in Canada (Valence Technology, Inc. v. Phostech Lithium Inc. Court File No. T-219-07) alleging infringement of Valence Canadian Patent 2,395,115. Subsequently, on April 2, 2007, Valence filed an amended claim alleging infringement of its recently granted Canadian Patents 2,483,918 and 2,466,366. "

"On February 14, 2006, Hydro-Quebec filed a lawsuit against Valence in the United States District Court for the Western District of Texas (Hydro-Quebec v. Valence Technology, Civil Action No. A06CA111). "

Thanks

1. Can any of you shed some lights on how you reached the following conclusion?



2. I am interested in how A123 worked around the LFP patent hold by Goodenough?

3. I am also interested in your conclusion that BYD stealing from A123. Which company sold what to BYD and when? Is it your speculation or you have evidence?

4. There are a dozen or more companies with some level of success on LFP and there are at least a handful of them in China also claim so. In your opinion, can any one of them produce a battery cell in the caliber of current BYD's without stealing A123's manufacture secret?

5. This is one chinese company start producing LFP cathode since 2003 using their own technology. Currently the production capacity is more than 200 tone per year.
http://www.stl-energy.com.cn/news_detail.asp?id=45
So I guess some one else can succeed before A123 shares its secret in 2005? Is that too hard to imagine?

6. Why didn't A123 sue Phostech? How can Phostech produce LFP cathode using nano tech without permissions from A123? It seems technology IPs are owned as following:
Carbon Coating: Phostech, Valence
Small Particle Size: A123, Phostech
Metal Doping: Valence
Interestingly A123 is not the dominate player as some people suggested.

7. Where do these lawsuits stand today?

"On January 31, 2007, Valence filed a lawsuit against Phostech Lithium Inc. in the Federal Court in Canada (Valence Technology, Inc. v. Phostech Lithium Inc. Court File No. T-219-07) alleging infringement of Valence Canadian Patent 2,395,115. Subsequently, on April 2, 2007, Valence filed an amended claim alleging infringement of its recently granted Canadian Patents 2,483,918 and 2,466,366. "

"On February 14, 2006, Hydro-Quebec filed a lawsuit against Valence in the United States District Court for the Western District of Texas (Hydro-Quebec v. Valence Technology, Civil Action No. A06CA111). "

Thanks

Are you serious?
LFP of BYD does not go into mass production due to poor qualitiy.
LFP BYD used is from other companies. How can you claim BYD is technical supervisor？