I'm very excited about the Volt. I will definitely buy one. Recharging the batteries at home makes a lot of sense. Since coal powers 50% of all generating stations, good ol' home grown coal beats imported oil, any day. I'd gladly pay any coalminer what he want's rather than send my money to oil countries that vow to destroy us all.

The question is, why has the Volt taken so long ? When I get mine ( and I definitely drive less than 40 miles a day) buying a gallon of gas will be like going to the dentist. I can't wait to see is how the oil companies will justify the high price when no one uses the product. I hope I live to see the day.

Let's hope GM is behind the 8 ball. Their track record has been dismal so far. I won't buy another car until I can plug it in. Right now I have a year 2000 Saturn SC1. By design or by accident (probably by accident) the car gets an amazing 40 mpg on the highway, over and over. Today, eight years later, the new Saturn's get worse mileage while the price of gas has more than doubled.

Antoni

Welcome to the forum Antoni. Believe it or not it takes 3 -5 years to design ANY car from scratch. Even just an old fashion ICE model. The list of tasks would probably give you a heart attack. From marketing studies to crash test certification. Things sure have gotten more difficult from the good old days of building something in the garage and having it out on the market in a few months. Huh? Well, sniff around the forums and you will get a small taste of all the different issues people come up with. Glad to hear you won't buy anything but a plug-in. Don't forget to tell your friends. ;)

Let's hope GM is behind the 8 ball. Their track record has been dismal so far. I won't buy another car until I can plug it in. Right now I have a year 2000 Saturn SC1. By design or by accident (probably by accident) the car gets an amazing 40 mpg on the highway, over and over. Today, eight years later, the new Saturn's get worse mileage while the price of gas has more than doubled.

I dunno. I had a 2000 SC1 and it too got better gas mileage than I ever thought it would. I had to drive it down to DC alot going over hills and through traffic and was averaging around 32 mpg w/ All weather tires. The thing was a little beast. Then I got the Honda Civic hybrid and gave it to my niece and she wrecked it. Ah well. Wouldn't mind having another one of those.

As for why it got such great mileage, I think it was probably due to it's aero dynamics which were probably more of an accident than by intent. I think they wanted the SC1 to look sporty, but be a family vehicle at the same time. Do to the sporty "look" it had create aero.

Finally, as for why it has taken so long to get something like the volt out, it's all about the Benjamins. If you've never watched it, watch "Who Killed The Electric Car". It boils down to, it's all of our faults, the oil companies, the car companies, the government and the consumers. We all allowed it to happen. Now GM is doing it right and we will soon be on our way to a better freedom.

Antoni:

Texas is right.....

The amount of time it takes to design, test, spec out all the thousands of individual parts, get bids, build test units, get government approval, build a new or remodel an existing assembly plant, train the workers, train the service techs, prepare for necessary spare parts and documentation for 4,500 Chevy dealerships, etc, etc, etc would just overwhelm you.

This car was announced as a concept in Jan, 2007. It is slated to be available for sale by the end of 2010. In the car world, and for a car with this much different technology, that is REALLY fast!

If you've never watched it, watch "Who Killed The Electric Car". It boils down to, it's all of our faults, the oil companies, the car companies, the government and the consumers. We all allowed it to happen. Now GM is doing it right and we will soon be on our way to a better freedom.

I've never seen the movie, but to me that is probably the most fair assessment that I have heard. Maybe GM didn't pursue the EV-1 as much as they could have, but I'm sure in the era of $1.25 per gallon gas, millions of people were not standing in line to get a vehicle with only 125 to 140 miles of range (maybe less with the AC on).

To Jim I,

I am not an automotive engineer, but I have seen an automobile assembly line in operation, and I would venture that considerable man-hours and greenbacks have to go into just designing and building the machinery that makes an assembly line operate.

I think everyone is giving GM a pass (except BigRedFred) . They don't deserve it. GM has acted with contemptuous disregard for the American people. The EV1 could have freed us from the stranglehold of imported oil 15 years ago when gas was a third the cost, but somehow GM decided people weren't interested in it. Yes, by all means watch "Who killed the Electric car?" but have your blood pressure medication close by. This is very, very sleazy. Even today, GM's CEO. Bob Lutz seemed about as unenthusiastic aboult the Volt as was pres.Bush signing legislation to build that wall to keep illegal aliens out.
Either way, we are in a mess. The Volt is better than the EV1, but the question begs asking. Who can afford a $40,000 Volt when a $15,000 Ford Focus gets 35 mpg ? You can drive a long way with $25,000 worth of gas. The Volt's high price tag will ensure us that few will but it and continue to keep us addicted to oil .
Antoni Scott

I think everyone is giving GM a pass (except BigRedFred) . They don't deserve it. GM has acted with contemptuous disregard for the American people. The EV1 could have freed us from the stranglehold of imported oil 15 years ago when gas was a third the cost, but somehow GM decided people weren't interested in it. Yes, by all means watch "Who killed the Electric car?" but have your blood pressure medication close by. This is very, very sleazy. Even today, GM's CEO. Bob Lutz seemed about as unenthusiastic aboult the Volt as was pres.Bush signing legislation to build that wall to keep illegal aliens out.
Either way, we are in a mess. The Volt is better than the EV1, but the question begs asking. Who can afford a $40,000 Volt when a $15,000 Ford Focus gets 35 mpg ? You can drive a long way with $25,000 worth of gas. The Volt's high price tag will ensure us that few will but it and continue to keep us addicted to oil .
Antoni Scott

1 You have obviously not seen some of my posts. I have been highly critical of GM in some of the posts. I hope I am wrong.

2 Bob Lutz is not GM's CEO. The CEO is Rick Wagoner; Lutz is GM vice-chairman. Lutz was CEO of Exide batteries right before their bankrupcy. Sure shows he knows a lot about batteries doesn't it?

3. What makes you think the Volt is better than the EV-1? It might be if it is the only car you own, but for a second car I would prefer the lower maintaince of the EV-1 over the Volt.

2 Bob Lutz is not GM's CEO. The CEO is Rick Wagoner; Lutz is GM vice-chairman. Lutz was CEO of Exide batteries right before their bankrupcy. Sure shows he knows a lot about batteries doesn't it?

Well, it shows he knows a lot about bankruptcy . . . :eek:

Lutz's strengths are in design and marketing. He should not have been CEO at all, it's just not his strength.

What the Volt needs is engineering, design and marketing - so Lutz seems to be well suited to his current role.

I think everyone is giving GM a pass (except BigRedFred) . They don't deserve it. GM has acted with contemptuous disregard for the American people. The EV1 could have freed us from the stranglehold of imported oil 15 years ago when gas was a third the cost, but somehow GM decided people weren't interested in it.

OK, once again, in harmony...

The EV-1 cost $80,000 to manufacture. That would have made it one of the most expensive passenger cars on the market.

Comparable to a fully loaded Audi A8. If you can afford an $80k car you're not really concerned about $4 / gallon gas. Nobody was going to pay $80,000 for an economy car.

I don't know why people have so much trouble wrapping their head around that simple fact. I guess its just easier to believe in conspiracies than to look at the numbers.

Maybe GM is to blame for not doing a better job of publicizing the actual cost. Maybe they were embarrassed that it cost that much. Maybe they didn't want their investors to know they wasted that much time and money on a car that never had a prayer.

I know "Who killed the electric car" is partially to blame for this. While it was a very interesting 'documentary' they conveniently left out some important facts. Like the price. Instead, they used anecdotal data and well crafted interviews to imply shady behavior that was completely unsubstantiated. But I guess that sells tickets.

GM is not evil. They are just a car company trying to build what people want for a price they can afford. If that makes them evil, then every car company on the planet is evil.

I'm not giving GM a free pass. I'm just treating them like every other company. What I'm not doing is singling them out for criticism that could just as easily be levied against every other car company that didn't build an $80,000 car that no one would buy.

But I guess every other car company didn't have an attack piece disguised as a documentary made about them.

What GM is doing now is building the most innovative new technology in the entire automotive industry. Every other company, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mercedes and a bunch of fly by nights you've never heard of are scrambling to keep up. Grudgingly.

The fact of the matter is, if GM wasn't building the Volt right now, it would probably be 5-10 years before anyone else would have even tried.

Toyota wouldn't even look at the new battery technologies until GM started this project.

LampCord:

Beautifully stated.

Ditto on the original SL series Saturns. 2350 lbs empty weight. Aero CD of 0.29. 100 hp. 5-sp manual transmission. Easy 30/40 mpg city/hwy. And GM cut them. Meh !!! I have gotten 46mpg on extended hwy trips. Prius ?? Tooheee !!!

The newest Saturn is the Honda Fit.

OK, once again, in harmony...

The EV-1 cost $80,000 to manufacture. That would have made it one of the most expensive passenger cars on the market.


Of course it did when you factor in all the R&D over less than 1200 hand built cars. What would they have been sold for if 10,000 were produced every year for 3 years? How about 100,000?


I'm not giving GM a free pass. I'm just treating them like every other company. What I'm not doing is singling them out for criticism that could just as easily be levied against every other car company that didn't build an $80,000 car that no one would buy.
The EV1 was never offered for sale. Like all the other car companies, they were lease only. Toyota was the only company to offer an EV for sale and they sold over 300 Rav4EVs in the 3 to 4 months they were offered without any advertising. They stopped because they did not have the parts to build any more of them.



What GM is doing now is building the most innovative new technology in the entire automotive industry. Every other company, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mercedes and a bunch of fly by nights you've never heard of are scrambling to keep up. Grudgingly.

That is because they do not think lithium batteries are ready and they know they can use NiMH in 2015. That is when Chevron looses control of the technology that GM sold to them.



The fact of the matter is, if GM wasn't building the Volt right now, it would probably be 5-10 years before anyone else would have even tried.

Toyota wouldn't even look at the new battery technologies until GM started this project.

Because they are not ready for mass production. Even GM wants a government handout to help with R&D.

Antoni, if you don't mind me asking, you're not the same Antoni Scott that's on the board of the Atlantic City Convention Hall Organ Society, are you? I'm a closet organ nut, and have been following the progress of that renovation over the past few years. :)

the ev1 came out over 12 years or so ago @ $80.000.00 and I know about all the info that's been out but what if GM hadn't give up where do you think we would be now?-------NO PLUG NO SALE

the ev1 came out over 12 years or so ago @ $80.000.00 and I know about all the info that's been out but what if GM hadn't give up where do you think we would be now?-------NO PLUG NO SALEActually what if the consumer hadn't given up is more like it. (and no I'm not talking about the 500 people in California waving "Save the EV1" picket signs) The facts were BACK THEN there just wasn't sufficient market interest (given the costs) to sustain the program. If they had just gone ahead and built 10,000-20,000 of them, the penny-pinching new-wave eco-geeks would have just let them rot on the dealer lots until the fire sale.(and the EV1 STILL would be dead)
In this case hindsight (from informed people like willdryden) appears to be far better than 20-20. :cool:
JMO
WopOnTour

ya I know I was just sayin, what if? ----NO PLUG NO SALE-go volt

LOL Sorry, over-reacted (got a bruise there) ;)
WOT

Actually what if the consumer hadn't given up is more like it. (and no I'm not talking about the 500 people in California waving "Save the EV1" picket signs) The facts were BACK THEN there just wasn't sufficient market interest (given the costs) to sustain the program. If they had just gone ahead and built 10,000-20,000 of them, the penny-pinching new-wave eco-geeks would have just let them rot on the dealer lots until the fire sale.(and the EV1 STILL would be dead)
In this case hindsight (from informed people like willdryden) appears to be far better than 20-20. :cool:
JMO
WopOnTour

The ZEV mandate made such arguments moot. It wasn't until the auto companies sued CARB to overturn the mandate that they could even argue this. It would have been no money maker at first but the technology and manufacturing processes would have improved year by year and we wouldn't be waiting till 2010 for a serial hybrid vehicle ;)

The ZEV mandate made such arguments moot. It wasn't until the auto companies sued CARB to overturn the mandate that they could even argue this. It would have been no money maker at first but the technology and manufacturing processes would have improved year by year and we wouldn't be waiting till 2010 for a serial hybrid vehicle ;)Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda
You cant FORCE a company to create a product that they are going to lose money on. So since nobody was willing to "buck up" (the feds, the state, or the fickle Cali consumer) the most rational and fiscally responsible thing to do was pull-the-plug.
A middle school trained small business accountant could have made that simple assessment.

Remember it was really an engineering program from the start that mutated into a potential marketing program. The engineering to be learned was completed and the potential marketing viability was analyzed every way to Sunday and in the end... bye bye EV1.
Don't even bother pointing fingers unless you point it at yourselves
JMO
WopOnTour

The ZEV mandate made such arguments moot. It wasn't until the auto companies sued CARB to overturn the mandate that they could even argue this. It would have been no money maker at first but the technology and manufacturing processes would have improved year by year and we wouldn't be waiting till 2010 for a serial hybrid vehicle ;)

The reason the ZEV mandate was initiated was that GM said they were going to market the EV-1. California decided ALL the car companies should produce EVs and not just GM.

Now GM claims they are going to build a serial hybrid. If there was a mandate by some govt. agency, I bet GM would pull the plug on the Volt as well.

I wasn't aware that the EV1 cost $80,000 to build (thankyou LampCord). I suppose if GM built more than 700 of them the price might come down. The only reason I mentioned that the Volt is better than the EV1 is that you can drive for 400 miles with the Volt
(40 miles on batteries and the rest on gas).

I was thinking about T.Boone Pickens plan to shift electrical production away from natural gas to wind instead and use the compressed natural gas to run cars. Sounds like a plan to me.

I was thinking about the $700 billion we send overseas for oil. If windmills saved us 38% in imports ( $400 billion) maybe just a tiny bit of that could go into subsidizing Volt batteries so that the average Joe could afford one. I'm all for giving money to Americans to make batteries than to Saudi ****ia to train suicide bombers.

If Americans were smart (we're stupid, We have to be stupid to drive Hummers and send $700 billion over to them to fund Islamic extremism) we would be all screaming at Detroit to build an economy car until the Volt is ready and affordable. My 2000 Saturn SC1 gets 40 mpg (what happened Detroit, did you forget to tweek the fuel injectors to burn up tons more gas ?).

Didn't Amory Lovins prove that with today's technology we could have an internal combustion engine'd car getting 60 mpg if it were built with carbon fiber instead of steel. I'm hanging on to my Saturn until the Volt is ready. I'm sure Toyota and Honda are hurrying, too.

Antoni

The reason the ZEV mandate was initiated was that GM said they were going to market the EV-1. California decided ALL the car companies should produce EVs and not just GM. If there was a mandate by some govt. agency, I bet GM would pull the plug on the Volt as well.Not if they know they can produce 70,000 units in the first 2 years and turn a profit on them! As opposed to a car that COST them over 100 million (with zero $ return) and then have to listen to bleeding heart liberal ass-wipes crying foul and formulating conspiracy theories...
WopOnTour

Didn't Amory Lovins prove that with today's technology we could have an internal combustion engine'd car getting 60 mpg if it were built with carbon fiber instead of steel. I'm hanging on to my Saturn until the Volt is ready. I'm sure Toyota and Honda are hurrying, too.

Antoni

A internal combustion engine car built with conventional materials can easily get 60 mpg already if that's the target. Look at GM and Ford's product lines in Europe for examples.

Yes, but then you need to meet U.S. Federal Emissions standards. This is why more of those Euro powertrains (includng diesels) are not available here. The UEC measure NOx emissions in a differen fashion and can get away running their engines leaner.
Plus those engines are typically in ultra-compact platforms that (historically) have not sold well in the USA. Things could change of course, but they havn't yet.
Vader, certainly you are not implying that the powertrains here in NA are intentionally designed to burn more fuel... are you?
WopOnTour

Actually what if the consumer hadn't given up is more like it. (and no I'm not talking about the 500 people in California waving "Save the EV1" picket signs) The facts were BACK THEN there just wasn't sufficient market interest (given the costs) to sustain the program. If they had just gone ahead and built 10,000-20,000 of them, the penny-pinching new-wave eco-geeks would have just let them rot on the dealer lots until the fire sale.(and the EV1 STILL would be dead)
In this case hindsight (from informed people like willdryden) appears to be far better than 20-20. :cool:
JMO
WopOnTourActually, you are wrong. More of the people who wanted the cars could have gotten them and the cost per unit would have gone down. Even Wagoner admits that now.

I wasn't aware that the EV1 cost $80,000 to build (thankyou LampCord).

LampCord is sucking down the GM lies. The $80,000 includes all the money spent on R&D and trying to get OUT of making them after the CARB mandate. Only GM knows the actual production cost per car and remember they were all hand made.

Actually, you are wrong. More of the people who wanted the cars could have gotten them and the cost per unit would have gone down. Even Wagoner admits that now.No it is YOU that is wrong. Sure costs go down with every PROFITABLE sale, however at the time they didn't have a market ANYWHERE but in California and even if they could sell every car they were cabable to build- they couldn't make it profitable. Wagoner just signed the paperwork, the root decision was made downstream.To bad so sad.
LampCord is sucking down the GM lies. The $80,000 includes all the money spent on R&D and trying to get OUT of making them after the CARB mandate. Only GM knows the actual production cost per car and remember they were all hand made.You are merely sucking down anti-GM propaganda from some silly green car web-site. Many of which, through "eco-geek wave radiation", continue to perpetuate the EV1 myth via the misinformed and inaccurate mockumentary (and aforementioned eco-geek waves)
Please purchase a tin foil helmet! (If you need a web-site for a DIY version just ask)

WoOnTour

Not if they know they can produce 70,000 units in the first 2 years and turn a profit on them! As opposed to a car that COST them over 100 million (with zero $ return) and then have to listen to bleeding heart liberal ass-wipes crying foul and formulating conspiracy theories...
WopOnTour1. No one that knows me would call me a liberal.

2. Untill Toyota came out with the Rav4 EV, they were getting $599/month on the leases. Then they had to drop the lease rate to $499/month to match Toyota.

3. The dealers hated the cars because there was no regular maintaince they could charge for.

4. Now you say the car cost over $100 million, but all prototypes cost over $100 million to develop even if they NEVER intend to produce them. Lutz claims they have already spent over $500 million on the Volt. That is called R&D and is overhead that should not be considered in the actual cost of producing the car. Yes, the profit margin on the car must recover this cost, but the profit margin must cover the same R&D across the board and not only on that one model. That is why they were charging over $50,000. for a truck that cost less than $15,000. to make.

5. It is real easy to formulate a conspiracy theory concerning the NiMH battery patents. Why else would an oil company want to buy controling interest in the best battery technology of that time for EVs? We have a saying in Texas. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you better pull the trigger or you'll miss out on a good duck dinner.

No it is YOU that is wrong. Sure costs go down with every PROFITABLE sale, however at the time they didn't have a market ANYWHERE but in California and even if they could sell every car they were cabable to build- they couldn't make it profitable. WoOnTour

The EV-1 ws NEVER offered for sale. I was in California at the time and I tried to buy one at 2 dealers. I was turned down for a lease because I was not a California resident.

There was no market anywhere else because no one outside of California knew they existed. I would not have known if I had not been on a contract for Pacific Bell at the time.

3. The dealers hated the cars because there was no regular maintaince [sic] they could charge for.

How is this going to be any different with modern EVs? Sure, the Volt has the small ICE, but I don't expect it will be as maintenance-hungry as the engine in a standard car, since it is only running the generator and that intermittently. Add to this the fact that the brake pads will see less wear since regenerative braking will share the load, what other medium-to high-ticket regular dealer-provided maintenance will be needed?

As the percentage of standard vehicles declines, how will the dealerships replace the maintenance profit center? (In other words, what new ways will they find to screw us? ;) )

1. No one that knows me would call me a liberal.
That's fine by me, but I didn't call you one.
2. Untill Toyota came out with the Rav4 EV, they were getting $599/month on the leases. Then they had to drop the lease rate to $499/month to match Toyota.What's your point? Who cares what they were leasing for? MY point was they (both the lessor AND the lessee) knew from the onset the lease was a temporary arrangement with NO option to purchase at the end of term. (perhaps a hint that it was a temporary arrangement?) Whether they dropped the price to remain competitive is shear speculation. There are many reasons why the cost of a one year leasing may go down, from interest rates, to incentive programs.
3. The dealers hated the cars because there was no regular maintains they could charge for.Total misinformed BS with (I can assure you) absolutely no supporting data to back it up. FYI- GM dealers have been pretty much OUT of the general maintenance business for many many years. Despite numerous programs trying to garner more of that business (eg. Mr Goodwrench Service Centers offering menu pricing on things like oil changes, brake jobs etc) the majority of their work and service department income comes in the form of warranty claims paid directly by GM
4. Now you say the car cost over $100 million, but all prototypes cost over $100 million to develop even if they NEVER intend to produce them. Lutz claims they have already spent over $500 million on the Volt. That is called R&D and is overhead that should not be considered in the actual cost of producing the car. Yes, the profit margin on the car must recover this cost, but the profit margin must cover the same R&D across the board and not only on that one model. That is why they were charging over $50,000. for a truck that cost less than $15,000. to make.LOL That's freakin HILARIOUS!You quite obviously have ZERO knowledge on how the automotive industry works, so your numbers mean absolutely nothing. Give me a point of reference to ANYTHING you have stated with respect to how R&D costs are recovered or that ANY automobile company sells ANY product at a 200+% profit. Where are you getting this garbage from?
5. It is real easy to formulate a conspiracy theory concerning the NiMH battery patents. Why else would an oil company want to buy controling interest in the best battery technology of that time for EVs? We have a saying in Texas. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you better pull the trigger or you'll miss out on a good duck dinner. Sure, easy for conspiracy crazed anti-establishment zealots!
FYI- Large oil companies like Chevron are not strictly in the fuel business. Most have LARGE investments in raw materials and have world-class lab and manufacturing facilities creating and producing a wide array of petro-chemical related products including many of the raw constituents that are used to create batteries of all types. For instance petroleum coke, a byproduct of the oil refining process is almost pure carbon used to create the carbon graphite used in Lithium Ion battery plates. Get it?

So again, you do not have a clue what you are talking about appear now to be just throwing out unsubstantiated random rantings, and IMO they have become too ridiculous to be taken seriously. [IGNORE ON]

WopOnTour

How is this going to be any different with modern EVs? Sure, the Volt has the small ICE, but I don't expect it will be as maintenance-hungry as the engine in a standard car, since it is only running the generator and that intermittently. Add to this the fact that the brake pads will see less wear since regenerative braking will share the load, what other medium-to high-ticket regular dealer-provided maintenance will be needed?

As the percentage of standard vehicles declines, how will the dealerships replace the maintenance profit center? (In other words, what new ways will they find to screw us? ;) )
I never said high dollar. Oil change 4 times a year, water pump, radiator, hoses (for the batteries as well since they insist on lithium instead of NiMH), fuel pump, ...

The obvious answer to the declining profit from maint is to discount less on the sale.

The ICE is also a battery conditioner for the Lithium Ion pack. It prevents the battery from discharging below the low-end thresh-hold on a trip, and it also prevents it from overcharging past a high-end thresh-hold to save on gas (given that you will want to plug it in at night).

I think that GM would rather have the battery pack last the full lifetime of the car (12-15 years) rather than having to replace it (as they have budgeted for in the design).

I used to be a proponent of a version of the Volt that had no generator, but now that I understand the method behind the madness, I think it's a requirement rather than an option.