EVs would seem the holy grail of car technology if it wasn't for the fact that charging the batteries takes a comparitively long time.

The seed of an answer is "Battery stations". You buy/lease the Volt or preferably a lightened pure EV variant with at least a 150 mile per charge range at highway speeds. You purchase an annual battery credit (equivelent to say battery cost/life expectancy of battery in years * 1.3 for profit). The key is, besides simply charging the battery pack you can swap it at any time with a charged replacement at a Battery Swap station (analogous to stopping for gas at a regular gas station). The Battery station would just rotate the incoming incoming customer depleted batteries through charging then send you off with a charged replacement, i.e. the battery pack does not stay with the vehicle. You just have access to a pool of ready charged batteries that are available through a network of Battery stations (gas stations).

In practice - Mon, Tues you commute to work ( < 30 miles)charging you battery at home. Wednesday you have a long trip, say Los Angeles to San Diego. You set off with a charged battery. 100+ miles into the trip the battery is getting low so you pull in to a Battery station. You drive over swap platform. The swap cradle engages on the battery pack you push a release lever. The cradle retracts and then another cradle re-inserts replacement battery pack. You get a green light on the dash, your credit card is debited a charging fee + 30% (< $5) and you are on your way.

Requirements :
The car - a standardized battery pack (across manufacturers) that is easily swappable via a standardized cradle system.
The Battery station - has an initial inventory of X batteries sufficient to handle expected number of cars with a given pack charging time. This would probably need near X number of charging points.
You need sufficient number of battery stations to provide a service equivalent to gas stations, at least on highway routes.
The battery station has the responsibility to remove bad old batteries from circulation and replace with newly purchased ones. They receive charging fees + a portion of the annual battery credit revenue.

The benefits :
- The range/charging problems have disappeared.
- The cost/life expectancy of a battery is not an issue for the individual.

A solution that could be implemented today and is largely future proof as new battery technology could be easily introduced using existing standardized mounting systems.

A good idea ? I think so but would require a Federal standards body to oversee.

Three quick problems:

First, the battery is currently one of the most expensive parts of the car. If you have a permanently-installed battery, you need one/car. If you have swappable batteries, you need more than one/car because some have to be charging. Someone has to pay for those batteries (and leasing doesn't solve that problem, because leaseholders have to cover the cost of the battery, AND a risk premium, so leasing batteries usually cost more than buying).

Second, the battery is heavy and has to be mounted in a way that keeps it secure in the event of an accident. That means that you would need to build a mount that can pop out a battery easily (making both the electrical and coolant connections needed), and still keep the battery inside the car in the event of an 100MPH impact into another car. Given that the battery is dead weight, the physics are not that easy.

Third, different sized cars need different batteries. How could you have one battery size that supports both a EV-minicar and an EV-Hummer? Modular batteries don't help, since you'll now need multiple connections for power and coolant.

Battery swaps have been tried many times, but nobody has solved the fundamental problems yet.

lol, battery swapping is only slightly more feasible than hydrogen (which is decidedly only slightly more feasible than electromagnets installed in the road to charge batteries on the fly). Swimdad named a few good reasons, I thought I'd continue

...let's see, where to begin...

How big is this battery going to be? Remember the Volt's battery is GIGANTIC. So big in fact they had to sacrifice 20% of the passenger capacity to get it to fit in the car and that still only goes 40 MILES! To go 100 miles, you would need much more. These batteries would probably have to weigh about 6-800 pounds minimum I'm guessing.

At first I was going to mention the fact that most gas stations have hundreds of customers a day with our current tank fulls lasting about 4x the distance of an EV battery. You would be servicing 4x as many customers per day, that would get very busy. It would be a zoo in fact, and you'd better have a lot of batteries, hundreds. Seeings how big these batteries are, you would need to build quite a bit of indoor storage space for them. But I suppose that if we are just talking about those once or twice a year vacationers, you might be able to handle the load with just 50 or so.

This system would inherently be competing with EREVs. Seeings how EREVs are already going to be around long before this acid tripping crack baby of an idea could be born, I don't think it will be able to compete with the simplicity of an EREV. Gas stations are everywhere, there is no additional infrastructure needs (which would be much more expensive than you think with the volume of these batteries). Filling up with gas is a no brainer, most of us have done it thousands of times already, people are way more comfortable filling up with gas then taking their battery out and putting a new one in (especially with the coolant connections etc. swimdad discussed). Again, assuming it's only needed to be done once or twice a year for most people, most people would forget how to do it. I bet most wives would never bother learning. Gas offers great extended mileage and if it's only for those once or twice a year trips, I think we are ok using a couple gallons of gas once a year.

There are a lot of people who would damage the batteries by overcharging them or something stupid and there would be all kinds of incoming quality control issues. You would have to pay someone to inspect and somehow test each and every battery before allowing it to go back out, otherwise you risk lawsuits when people get stuck in the middle of the desert (this would probably happen rather often anyway since there won't be any swapping stations in the desert, chances are people would run out somewhere with no cell phone reception and if they lived to tell the tale, they would be livid). If they didn't do this, I just know I'd repeatedly get one that is 3 years old that only lasts 60 miles or so. You might not even know when it will run out exactly because SOC indicators are notoriously unreliable, especially in large batteries.

Most people aren't willing to risk only having 100 miles on their trips (which would more than likely be somewhere they don't go that often, thus, to find somewhere to get a new battery almost every minute of the trip...that would be exhaustingly stressful). It's been called range anxiety and it's quite understandable in my opinion. It's like having a tank that can only hold 2-3 gallons of gas when full. People would be running out all over the place. You would spend as much time locating a swap out station and swapping out your battery as you would driving. It would take forever to get anywhere.

How many people who are dealing with the stresses of cramming their whole family and a couple weeks worth of luggage into their EV with the ADDED hassle of finding out where a switch out station is before running out of battery, and then switching out their battery. I'm assuming some magic leprechaun would make these batteries so easy to swap, the owner could do it himself because otherwise you are going to have to pay workers to do it and we all know how much manual labor costs these days. Right now I am having a hard time thinking about where it could go that would make it easy out, easy in. It would probably be cheaper to stop at a hotel for the night and recharge your battery over night than pay for the swap out with all of the overhead expenses that swimdad mentioned would be incurred. I suspect people would be willing to drive their bigger vehicles for most vacations anyway, EV owner or not, people are willing to drop an extra $100 once a year to be able to enjoy themselves and not have to deal with being hassled every 60 minutes with a new battery swap, hoping you pass a city before your range runs out. Just think of how old that would get anyway.

I told one of my friends how cool it would be to have a Volt and his only reply was "yeah, but who wants a car that you have to plug in every day?" He was totally serious. I'll let you imagine what the public's reaction to battery swapping would sound like.

Besides, quick charging batteries are quickly becoming a reality. The BYD batteries in the F3DM (batteries already being produced, not just something that might happen some day) can charge up to 85% of their charge in 15 minutes or something. Toshiba has a similar product already in production as well, and some day, ultracapacitors will be the future for EVs if we are ever going to really be able to KO oil dependency. Foreseeable battery advancements in charging times will prove battery swapping infrastructure to be one huge waste of resources and make a mockery of oil independency efforts. Efforts I am imaginging will be in need of ongoing support for decades to come.

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

For some reason I can see Aptera coming up with this idea and expecting eco nuts (notice I didn't say eco-friendlies who still have a brain) they have by the nose ring to nod their head and lobby for the California mayors to do this. I'm not against PBP as a whole, just want to know what the guy who thought this one up was smoking.

...sorry, I gotta give it the thumbs down.

EVs would seem the holy grail of car technology if it wasn't for the fact that charging the batteries takes a comparitively long time...

A good idea ? I think so but would require a Federal standards body to oversee.

Oh, you are going to love this. Shai Agassi has another convert!! Go to Project Better Place and view your holy grail. The rest of us will wait for the E-REV.

http://www.betterplace.com/

Let's tackle each problem in turn:

1) If you have swappable batteries, you need more than one/car because some have to be charging - I obviously did not explain my idea clearly. You don't own/lease more than one battery. The battery you get the day you pick the car up will not be the one you have for the life of the car. Let's call it a membership instead. You just buy a "membership" which gives you an initial battery for the membership period (renewable). The membership then allows you to charge/use that battery but also allows you to swap your battery at battery swap station any time, i.e. you are on a long trip and the battery is low. Pull in swap the battery (cost, say $5) and you are on your way again in the time it takes to fill a gas tank.

2) battery weight issues, particularly in the event of an accident - quick release mounting of heavy objects is the easiest problem to overcome. The Transport industry do it daily with containers. Before I get any silly LOL comments - clearly I am not saying you would use the same mechanism.

3) variants of battery - that is why you need a standards body formed with auto manufacturer members to define and maintain a standard, (similar to Bellcore, ATM Forum for Telecoms). Federal regulation could be used to mandate standards compliance. The battery pack could be modular - i.e. have one standard battery unit. A small car would use one. A large sedan or hummer would use 2. Larger commercial vehicles would use more.

The technicalities should be easy to overcome for an imaginative auto industry with a common goal. The difficult part is bringing the industry partners together to work cooperatively on that common goal.



Three quick problems:

First, the battery is currently one of the most expensive parts of the car. If you have a permanently-installed battery, you need one/car. If you have swappable batteries, you need more than one/car because some have to be charging. Someone has to pay for those batteries (and leasing doesn't solve that problem, because leaseholders have to cover the cost of the battery, AND a risk premium, so leasing batteries usually cost more than buying).

Second, the battery is heavy and has to be mounted in a way that keeps it secure in the event of an accident. That means that you would need to build a mount that can pop out a battery easily (making both the electrical and coolant connections needed), and still keep the battery inside the car in the event of an 100MPH impact into another car. Given that the battery is dead weight, the physics are not that easy.

Third, different sized cars need different batteries. How could you have one battery size that supports both a EV-minicar and an EV-Hummer? Modular batteries don't help, since you'll now need multiple connections for power and coolant.

Battery swaps have been tried many times, but nobody has solved the fundamental problems yet.

1) If you have swappable batteries, you need more than one/car because some have to be charging - I obviously did not explain my idea clearly. You don't own/lease more than one battery. The battery you get the day you pick the car up will not be the one you have for the life of the car. Let's call it a membership instead. You just buy a "membership" which gives you an initial battery for the membership period (renewable). The membership then allows you to charge/use that battery but also allows you to swap your battery at battery swap station any time, i.e. you are on a long trip and the battery is low. Pull in swap the battery (cost, say $5) and you are on your way again in the time it takes to fill a gas tank.


p_volt,

I think you missed the point on the battery count. Let me rephrase it using concrete numbers:

If there are one million electric cars in use, then there are 1,000,000batteries installed in the cars. In addition to those, there are an ADDITIONAL number of batteries sitting in recharge stations. Let's say we have 1 recharge station per 1000 cars (about the same ratio as gas stations to cars today), then you have 1000 recharge stations. If a battery takes even only one hour to recharge, you'll still need at least 60 batteries per station (since it's not unreasonable to service one car/minute), so at a mininum you need an additional 60,000 batteries on top of the 1,000,000 batteries in the cars. Adding a reasonable reserve (since we always have to have one battery charged and ready at all times), increase the charging station batteries to 100,000, which comes out to 1.1 batteries per car.

So, if an average non-removable car battery costs $10,000, the hot-swap battery cost a minimum of $11,000 (to cover the cost of the reserve battery). Assuming the cost of the station, high-capacity electrical service, and replacement mechanism comes to about $1M, then the cost of the 1000 recharge stations add another $1000 per car to the cost. So, at this point, we're up to $12,000/car, excluding staffing, support, interest on station capital, and allowances for depreciation of the batteries. Convert this all into a lease with a decent profit margin, and you're talking about $300/month (excluding electricity costs) for the cost of the battery swap infrastructure. That doesn't even factor in the cost of the technology and infrastructure risk premiums and liability costs, and if you don't add a premium for this you don't have a chance of getting this idea funded.

So, I can either lease the batteries for $300/month plus electricity, or I can buy the battery as part of the car for $10,000, or about $150/month plus the cost of electricity. If I do the math, it's a no-brainer.

So, when I go to the car dealer, and I see that I can get a non-replacable battery car for $150/month less than the cost of the replacable battery car, I'll definitely take the non-replacable battery. If (as I suspect) a lot of people will do this, you won't get enough people to create a critical mass of replacable battery cars.

So, from a business model perspective, there are a lot of problems with this. If there's no business model, then there's not much chance of doing the engineering to solve the technical problems. In the end, it's an interesting technical idea, but there are millions of good ideas out there, and ideas only go into practice when both business and technical issues get solved.

Battery swapping for cars is silly and a waste of money and R&D time.

1) Logistics. The batteries with current technology will weigh around 1,000 lbs each. Removing them from the car will require some serious equipment and engineering to be able to move that much mass in the short amount of time the consumer demands. More than one customer will want this service at once, so the service station needs to be sizable, complex and expensive.

2) Safety. The batteries need to be able connect/disconnect fast and easy but at the same time not spring loose in an accident. Battery packs will require additional protection leading to more weight and complexity.

3) Cost. Investment in these batteries and swapping stations will be enormous and the cost to charge and service these batteries high. Yet at the same time, the consumer needs the cost to be competitive with gasoline. The return on investment will be so bad that only dumb governments with lots of "free" taxpayer money and debt will invest.

4) Power. The average filling station that would be replaced by a battery swap station probably only has a 200 amp electrical service. A 20kwh battery would need about 30 amps to charge it up in about 4 hours. Fast battery charge times are critical so that you don't need to keep so many batteries on hand not making you money. At the rate of say twenty cars an hour you would need at least that many on hand, fully charged and ready to go. Behind the scenes you would need about 80 charging. 80x30= 2,400 amps. Throw in the the usual 200 amps that a service station uses for lighting, mini mart and such and probably around another 200 for the battery swapping mechanism and you could say that the average roadside filling station will have to be up graded from 200 amp service to 2,800 amp service. Where is this power going to come from and how is it going to get there?

5) Technology Lifespan. Battery technology will keep marching on. In the not too distant future, batteries will be developed that will allow cars to go 3-400 miles on a charge and then recharge in half the time they do now. Because of the huge investment in the older technology, battery swapping stations will be stuck using the older, heavier, weaker batteries. When this happens, the battery swapping station will be obsolete and the consumer will take their money elsewhere. At the current rate of battery development and the length of time it will take to develop and install, I would expect the battery swapping station to be obsolete right around the time the first station opens.

Please, let the car battery swap idea go.

lol, p_volt, thanks for giving me a good laugh. When I woke up this morning, I just had an image of my girlfriend trying to figure out how to swap out a 1000 pound battery in the pouring rain (it rains 8 months out of the year here in Oregon).

...lol, I will never stop laughing...

EDIT: The sad thing about this idea is that Project Better Place is actually going to try to do it.

lol, p_volt, thanks for giving me a good laugh. When I woke up this morning, I just had an image of my girlfriend trying to figure out how to swap out a 1000 pound battery in the pouring rain (it rains 8 months out of the year here in Oregon).

...lol, I will never stop laughing...

. . . And for the other three months, it's foggy. ;) It's the price we pay for having such a green (vegetation-wise) state. We do occasionally get a couple of weeks of sunny weather, but they're not to be counted on.

I'd have to echo DaV8or's last point; battery technology with respect to reducing charge times is changing fast. The EREV is probably the best bridge to the EV's golden day.

While I don't believe in telling investors and rich people what to do with their money, I'd sure like to see every dime earmarked for this idea being poured into battery advancement.

Or, just to stir up trouble, Ultra-Capacitor advancement :D

I can't believe some people here are so arrogant to actually laugh at the PBP model like it's a silly kid dream.

This is a project that is backed by hundreds of millions of dollars of funding, has multiple countries and customer already signed on and they already have installed the first charge points!

Just laugh at it? Wow! I would think a smart person would at least wait until the one of the projects was complete before dismissing it so easily. It's not like it just a few guys in a garage. It's a huge operation.

We are waiting years for the first Volt yet some of you don't even give the same latitude to PBP. Don't you find that a bit unfair? PBP has not even missed one milestone. They have a prototype EV and a charge point already done! That's faster than I though they would. Come on guys, don't be such fan-boys to cover your eyes at what the competition is doing. A good businessman always keeps his eye on what others are doing. It gives them more time to change if they have to. Many a business has suddenly closed because there was no benchmarking going on. PBP is for real, weather you like it or not. It will also provide a lot of answers to important questions. Even if it turns out to be a failure it will move the entire industry forward. It's a good thing! It's not evil, don't be afraid. ;)

Texas, do you know any of the details, or have a link detailing their battery swap stations they are planning on doing? With the overwhelming logistical issues I and the rest thought up in just 5 minutes, I'm curious what they are planning on doing about it.

. . . And for the other three months, it's foggy. ;) It's the price we pay for having such a green (vegetation-wise) state. We do occasionally get a couple of weeks of sunny weather, but they're not to be counted on.

I never appreciated having trees and green grass all around until I went to school in Utah for a year and a half and their idea of vegetation is tumble weed. They also have miserably long winters. There is some form of ice on the ground 6 months out of the year. When I first moved there in Jan 2007, I had to wait 2 months for the temperature to get above freezing even during the day. It wasn't until April I actually got to see what my parking lot looked like. It was a skating rink.

Now I'm imagining some soccer mom trying to change a 1000 pound battery when its 12 degrees and -4 windchill and there's 6 inches of standing ice in the parking lot. Then 90 minutes later, having to do it again on their way to Las Vegas.

This is a project that is backed by hundreds of millions of dollars of funding, has multiple countries and customer already signed on and they already have installed the first charge points!


Madoff had billions of dollars and plenty of customers.

EEStor has gobs of money too...and at least one big customer.

I never appreciated having trees and green grass all around until I went to school in Utah for a year and a half and their idea of vegetation is tumble weed. They also have miserably long winters. There is some form of ice on the ground 6 months out of the year. When I first moved there in Jan 2007, I had to wait 2 months for the temperature to get above freezing even during the day. It wasn't until April I actually got to see what my parking lot looked like. It was a skating rink.

Now I'm imagining some soccer mom trying to change a 1000 pound battery when its 12 degrees and -4 windchill and there's 6 inches of standing ice in the parking lot. Then 90 minutes later, having to do it again on their way to Las Vegas.

I was just imagining a 1,000lb battery falling out at highway speed because it wasn't properly secured . . . :eek:

I was just imagining a 1,000lb battery falling out at highway speed because it wasn't properly secured . . . :eek:

Ewww...not to mention the car it fell out of would be completely out of control with no power after that. Yeah, I am sure I'll feel a lot safer knowing all the dumb blondes I went to high school with are the ones connecting a 1,000lb giant brick to their car and I have to drive behind them on my way to school every day.

Madoff had billions of dollars and plenty of customers.

EEStor has gobs of money too...and at least one big customer.



Are you really putting these three players in the same bowl?

Oh, and for those that want more info. on PBP's plans, please visit their website. They have tons of videos explaining everything.


http://www.betterplace.com/


Also, you can search these forums. I would search "Agassi". The last set of videos I linked to show a very polished plan. don't forget, you only should need the swap-out stations for long trips. Probably only have them on the highways and expressways.

Are you really putting these three players in the same bowl?

I'm just saying that piles of money doesn't mean you have a good idea, especially if the idea is battery swap stations.

Charging infrastructure good, battery swaps, very niche.

Oh, and for those that want more info. on PBP's plans, please visit their website. They have tons of videos explaining everything.


http://www.betterplace.com/


Also, you can search these forums. I would search "Agassi". The last set of videos I linked to show a very polished plan. don't forget, you only should need the swap-out stations for long trips. Probably only have them on the highways and expressways.

http://www.betterplace.com/our-bold-plan/how-it-works/battery-exchange-stations

Hmm, according to the website, they are going to somehow have an automated battery changer that takes 3 minutes and the driver doesn't even have to get out. That sounds more outlandish than EEScam to me.

Although I am a skeptic, I don't see the battery changing itself as an obstacle. I am amazed at what NASCAR pit teams do in mere seconds. Automation and training, brother. I would be more worried about some joker's abused battery going into my car. How many people do you know that change their oil every 10,000 miles or drive on their tires until they fail ? There are ways to work around that, surely.

Although I am a skeptic, I don't see the battery changing itself as an obstacle. I am amazed at what NASCAR pit teams do in mere seconds. Automation and training, brother. I would be more worried about some joker's abused battery going into my car. How many people do you know that change their oil every 10,000 miles or drive on their tires until they fail ? There are ways to work around that, surely.

That's the easy part. That's actually not an issue. Many industrial Li-ion batteries now have computer chips built into them that monitor the entire history of the battery. The battery's charges and discharges and the rates that they are done at. This is because this is critical to battery long life and reliability with Li-ion. Any recharge/swapping station would have the ability to tell the condition of the battery. Assuming they aren't sleazy, your battery should be OK.

Assuming they aren't sleazy, your battery should be OK.

Damned hard to make that kind of assumption in today's dismal swamp of moral relativism. I remember growing up when there was clear "right" and "wrong". No more. :(

Damned hard to make that kind of assumption in today's dismal swamp of moral relativism. I remember growing up when there was clear "right" and "wrong". No more. :(

Agreed. I would much rather own my own battery.

Ok, Texas, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this battery swapping thing because you seem fairly intelligent and you seem to think these guys are not just Lile Lanlee selling Springfield a shotty monorail, I just am cordially letting you know this thing makes no sense to me for the following reasons (in hopes that someone can enlighten me):

Well, I'm glad to hear them say it's going to be completely automated so I can stop imagining my poor girlfriend trying to lug around a 1,000 pound Lithium Ion battery in the bitter cold rain. But even if somehow they have automated robotic arms that can disconnect and store all of these batteries underground or something so that they are not exposed to the elements, and then pull you out a new battery and insert it into your car...this still sounds like a nightmare for vacationers to have to get a new battery every 100 miles (approximately every 80-90 minutes of driving highway speeds minus the time it takes to get to the swapping station). You would have to be the most die hard anti petroleum zealots before you would be willing to take your 100 mile range EV on some kind of road trip considering how many stops you would have to make along the way for fuel.

I doubt even the most pessimistic battery technology expert believes these battery swapping stations are anything but VERY temporary stop gaps until quicker charging batteries are being used (which technology, as you know, is already available from BYD and Toshiba).

The price of electricity in SoCal is about 12 cents per kWh. Assuming an optimistic 95% efficient energy transfer to the battery during charging, and assuming the battery has a capacity of 25kWh to go 100 miles, it costs over $3 per charge just for electricity, plus any other expenses incurred for maintenance on the stations systems, keeping the lights on etc. and most of all replacing batteries that no longer carry the minimum capacity (you can bet anyone who doesn't like the battery capacity they are getting after a year or two would just go swap it out). Just to be able to see a break even return on investment for the up front money needed to build the battery swapping stations with whatever automated switching mechanisms needed (sounds pretty expensive to me especially considering the cost of land alone in SoCal these would be built on), and the small economy of scale that will exist (only people going on vacation in their teeny tiny short range EV a couple of times a year) will make each battery swap too expensive to compete with EREV technology.

I would guess to be competitive it would have to cost about $5 per battery switch (which gives you 100 miles driving range at best), because the EREV would cost the same to fuel for those 100 miles (getting 50mpg) running gas at $2.50/gallon. With all of the above listed expenses, I think that would be difficult, I would imagine a more realistic price would be somewhere around $12 minimum unless it was government subsidized (which California definitely does not have the cash to do right now, my Grandma who lives in Cali told me they are sending her an IOU instead of a tax return this year - dead serious).

Even if the price was comparable, or maybe even lower by a dollar or two per 100 miles when compared to EREVs, you still have to stay in range of the PBP battery swap stations, that would really limit the vacation. Who among us is willing to sacrifice that kind of convenience (being able to drive anywhere in the US, Canada, Mexico etc. with your EREV and be able to fill up at any gas station, any time, instead of trying to squeeze out every last bit of your 100 miles you paid for before you have to swap it out for a new one) just to save a few dollars a year?

Although creating battery swapping stations might give EVs a theoretical unlimited driving range, they are still limited by the range of battery swapping stations. Considering the vast distances and all of the directions people would need to take these, there would have to be countless numbers of them to make the system enticing, which would make the economies of scale per station even worse with each station added in a city. It's economically a self defeating system. Each swapping station that goes up makes any single swapping station in a city less utilized.

There might be some commuters that could be willing to try it, who knows.

Ok, Texas, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this battery swapping thing because you seem fairly intelligent and you seem to think these guys are not just Lile Lanlee selling Springfield a shotty monorail, I just am cordially letting you know this thing makes no sense to me for the following reasons (in hopes that someone can enlighten me):

Well, I'm glad to hear them say it's going to be completely automated so I can stop imagining my poor girlfriend trying to lug around a 1,000 pound Lithium Ion battery in the bitter cold rain. But even if somehow they have automated robotic arms that can disconnect and store all of these batteries underground or something so that they are not exposed to the elements, and then pull you out a new battery and insert it into your car...this still sounds like a nightmare for vacationers to have to get a new battery every 100 miles (approximately every 80-90 minutes of driving highway speeds minus the time it takes to get to the swapping station). You would have to be the most die hard anti petroleum zealots before you would be willing to take your 100 mile range EV on some kind of road trip considering how many stops you would have to make along the way for fuel.

I doubt even the most pessimistic battery technology expert believes these battery swapping stations are anything but VERY temporary stop gaps until quicker charging batteries are being used (which technology, as you know, is already available from BYD and Toshiba).

The price of electricity in SoCal is about 12 cents per kWh. Assuming an optimistic 95% efficient energy transfer to the battery during charging, and assuming the battery has a capacity of 25kWh to go 100 miles, it costs over $3 per charge just for electricity, plus any other expenses incurred for maintenance on the stations systems, keeping the lights on etc. and most of all replacing batteries that no longer carry the minimum capacity (you can bet anyone who doesn't like the battery capacity they are getting after a year or two would just go swap it out). Just to be able to see a break even return on investment for the up front money needed to build the battery swapping stations with whatever automated switching mechanisms needed (sounds pretty expensive to me especially considering the cost of land alone in SoCal these would be built on), and the small economy of scale that will exist (only people going on vacation in their teeny tiny short range EV a couple of times a year) will make each battery swap too expensive to compete with EREV technology.

I would guess to be competitive it would have to cost about $5 per battery switch (which gives you 100 miles driving range at best), because the EREV would cost the same to fuel for those 100 miles (getting 50mpg) running gas at $2.50/gallon. With all of the above listed expenses, I think that would be difficult, I would imagine a more realistic price would be somewhere around $12 minimum unless it was government subsidized (which California definitely does not have the cash to do right now, my Grandma who lives in Cali told me they are sending her an IOU instead of a tax return this year - dead serious).

Even if the price was comparable, or maybe even lower by a dollar or two per 100 miles when compared to EREVs, you still have to stay in range of the PBP battery swap stations, that would really limit the vacation. Who among us is willing to sacrifice that kind of convenience (being able to drive anywhere in the US, Canada, Mexico etc. with your EREV and be able to fill up at any gas station, any time, instead of trying to squeeze out every last bit of your 100 miles you paid for before you have to swap it out for a new one) just to save a few dollars a year?

Although creating battery swapping stations might give EVs a theoretical unlimited driving range, they are still limited by the range of battery swapping stations. Considering the vast distances and all of the directions people would need to take these, there would have to be countless numbers of them to make the system enticing, which would make the economies of scale per station even worse with each station added in a city. It's economically a self defeating system. Each swapping station that goes up makes any single swapping station in a city less utilized.

There might be some commuters that could be willing to try it, who knows.




1) We have to wait to see what the highway range is for the American cars.

2) America is so big that the change cannot happen overnight. It will be gradual. Most people will still have at least two cars. Take the gas powered one if you think the trip will be inconvenient. As the infrastructure is built out, batteries will continue to get better. More range, more stations (probably already switched to quick-charge).


Thus, let's wait to see what happens. Even if most Americans had just one PBP car and used it for 90 percent of their driving we would be in great shape.

That is why we need these pilot projects - so we can see how everything works. If we don't try we will never know the answers to the questions you raise. I have a good feeling that we will know these answers in 2 - 3 years. I look forward to it.

Omni, your discussion centers around a vacation and drive scenario. Is your subconscious trying to tell you something ?? :)

[QUOTE]Lile Lanlee selling Springfield a shotty monorail/QUOTE]

What dat ??

OK, three things.

The State of California will not be issuing IOU's for tax returns. The state may stiff it's own employees, but not the general population. Tell grandma not to worry, yet anyhow.

Signed,

One of Arnold's Minions

[QUOTE]Lile Lanlee selling Springfield a shotty monorail/QUOTE]

What dat ??

It's a reference to a Simpsons episode where a scammer comes to town to sell Springfield on a new Monorail system to compete with Shelbyville and of course it does not go as planed and much hilarity ensues. Also see the thread about the Namibia Green Tower. Lyle Lanlee has been over there too.:rolleyes:

Omni, your discussion centers around a vacation and drive scenario. Is your subconscious trying to tell you something ?? :)

I am just going off what the website said these battery swap stations were for, people driving on vacation that won't have access to their home charging stations. But yes, I could use a vacation, that's for sure. If I could, I'd find a way to go to the Detroit Auto Show. I want to be there so bad when America's future is rolled out.

lol, I figured the IOU thing was some form of machiavellian scare tactics, seeings how it's flat illegal, I know it's not going to happen.

Gaining momentum.... "
Under the Better Place model, electric car drivers enroll in a subscription plan to use the company’s open network of battery exchange stations " - see http://www.premier.gov.on.ca/news/Product.asp?ProductID=2754

This is clearly a solid idea. The risks are :
- Industry/gov't don't take steps to standardize the mounting systems and battery types, as mentioned in one of my previous posts. A standards body and incentives/legislation requiring compliance would be one proven and effective method.
- it requires multiple big players to get on board with a solid commitment and patience to see it through. Take up will take time. This won't be an overnight return, BUT....

.... it has the potential to be a significant opportunity and one that could help get the U.S. economy going again. If the U.S. could put the same development drive behind this as they did with the silicon chip and demonstrate it works by implementing the swap station infrastructure domestically, it could be a winning formula with a world market.


Alternatively, let's all LOL... who would want a PC anyway.;)


Oh, and for those that want more info. on PBP's plans, please visit their website. They have tons of videos explaining everything.


http://www.betterplace.com/


Also, you can search these forums. I would search "Agassi". The last set of videos I linked to show a very polished plan. don't forget, you only should need the swap-out stations for long trips. Probably only have them on the highways and expressways.