http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/business/27coal.html?_r=1&hp

It's easy if you try.

Coal-fired units produce electricity by burning coal in a boiler to heat water to produce steam. The steam, at tremendous pressure, flows into a turbine, which spins a generator to produce electricity. The steam is cooled, condensed back into water, and returned to the boiler to start the process over.

Many countries are trying to find ways to clean up emissions from coal, among the dirtiest of fossil fuels and a big source of gases blamed for heating the planet, in a race likely to yield billions of dollars for the best technology.

Coal generates 54% of our electricity, and is the single biggest air polluter in the U.S. Although we cannot eliminate coal altogether overnight, building new coal plants is a terrible policy for Americans' health, welfare, and indeed economies.

We should be thankful to have so much coal here in the U.S. It will buy us time to transition our transportation infrastructure. The coal burning is also done away from population centers and can be filtered out very nicely. Yes, you still have the CO2 problem but we are going to have to live with that for a while. Until we get serious about using renewables we are just going to have rely on coal.

The much bigger issue is our petroleum problem. Not only is it polluting but there are going to be serious supply problems in the near future. That is why it's priority job one.

Thank you coal gods. Thank you for the opportunity to get us off of petroleum supplied by foreign countries. Bad for our economy, bad for our health and bad for world stability.

It's easy if you try.

LOL - thanks for the belly laugh this morning.

The pollution problems in China is the result of every Chinese home having a coal stove. I understand that people will continue to use coal and other fossil fuels, but they do pollute.

Californians just installed 133 MW of solar panels this year alone, so while some may turn to coal, others are turning to clean, renewable sources like wind and solar.

As heating costs go up and down with oil and gas prices, I've seen a trend towards pellet stoves and coal stoves for heating. Pellet stoves are not sustainable for large-scale use as a heating source. Coal would last a long time, be very cheap for a long time, and be an environmental nightmare in a number of ways.

In my opinion, heat pumps (air-source or ground-source, depending on geographic location) are a great way to move towards sustainable heating (and cooling), but they are more expensive in operating costs and much more expensive in capital costs than stoves.

But try to Google Donora Pennsylvania + coal.

It is the one tangible example of air pollution directly killing American citizens.

We debated this in High School Forensics a generation ago. Donora was the one spot where, regarding air pollution, you could answer the question " where is the harm ? ""

As Texas is so fond of saying, " I am laughing......." but I am not. It's pathetic and self indulging to think anyone is doing any good about global warming in the US when China and India are not playing the game. And they are just getting warmed up. China in particular is developing coal plants. Their coal is dirtier, and their are a whole hell of a lot more of them and their plants coming. If anyone is laughing it's the Chinese at our absolute stupidity. They have almost every economic advantage, and now they are going to undercut our energy production costs. Game over. :eek:

But try to Google Donora Pennsylvania + coal.

It is the one tangible example of air pollution directly killing American citizens.

We debated this in High School Forensics a generation ago. Donora was the one spot where, regarding air pollution, you could answer the question " where is the harm ? ""

As Texas is so fond of saying, " I am laughing......." but I am not. It's pathetic and self indulging to think anyone is doing any good about global warming in the US when China and India are not playing the game. And they are just getting warmed up. China in particular is developing coal plants. Their coal is dirtier, and their are a whole hell of a lot more of them and their plants coming. If anyone is laughing it's the Chinese at our absolute stupidity. They have almost every economic advantage, and now they are going to undercut our energy production costs. Game over. :eek:





If you think about it, China has:


1) Over a billion people.

2) All the needed technology.

3) A burning desire to make it.

4) A government structure that can make things happen fast.

5) Plenty of resources.

6) Plenty of hard working cheap labor.

7) A willingness to sacrifice their people to reach their goals.

8) A history of innovation and being number one.

9) An appreciation of education.



Thus, we should see China continue to raise rapidly. In fact, the only thing I see holding back the Chinese is the current global petroleum supply problem. They will need massive amounts of energy to build all of the infrastructure they are planning. They will also need massive amounts of people to buy their cheap products.

If the global economy continues to have problems, there is also the possibility of a revolution by the Chinese people. This will throw a wrench in their plans for a long time. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years. At least it's not boring! ;)

Worse to consider about China. I read somewhere else that given the current fratricide (sp ?) and the favoring of male over female births, the workers paradise will end up with over 70 million more men than women. So, in the next generation, 70 million men with no family. Maybe they go into the army at a time of global Chinese expansion and chauvanism, and look north. Mostly sparsely populated Siberia, a weakened Soviet Union with a declining birth rate and population, and loads of natural resources. Recipe for a "reorganization of the eastern co-prosperity sphere". :(

Right now China is locking up long term leases of massive amounts of Australian coal and iron ore. Looking ahead long term to feed the machine. Not really to concerned about CO2, Al Gore, Amory McLovins or Global Warming.

When the population of males reaches too high of a percentage, history shows one universal result:

WAR!


Makes sense. Men want women but can't have women. They get frustrated and start to fight over the women. One thing leads to another and there you have it. After war there are plenty of women for the remaining lucky guys. Perhaps that's the cycle of humanity.

The funny thing is that it's probably less polluting overall to directly heat with coal so long as the coal fired furnaces have a high enough efficiency rating. At least compared to a straight resistance electrical heater.

The funny thing is that it's probably less polluting overall to directly heat with coal so long as the coal fired furnaces have a high enough efficiency rating. At least compared to a straight resistance electrical heater.

Only on a CO2 basis. A home stove will not have NOx, SOx, or particulate emissions controls, as required on power plants. Hopefully someday we will stop being completely idiotic and require Hg emissions controls on power plants too, so we don't continue to get Hg-poisoning by eating fish. Also, not all electricity is generated by coal. Finally, we could use heat pumps, which produce 2-4 times as much heat with the same amount of electrical energy as resistive heaters and can be used for cooling in summer too.

I think the lesson learned from this is that when people's lived are screwed with by quadrupling the price of oil, they're not going to care too much about the environment.

I think the lesson learned from this is that when people's lived are screwed with by quadrupling the price of oil, they're not going to care too much about the environment.

So true. In the same way that they won't take measures to switch to electric if the price of gasoline won't hurt their pockets.

So true. In the same way that they won't take measures to switch to electric if the price of gasoline won't hurt their pockets.

Yeah, well, it's kind of hard to convince people to buy an electric car when there aren't any to buy.:rolleyes:

How about we make a practical electric vehicle first and let the people who can afford to care that much lead the way. Then we can worry about convincing people who are having trouble with their heating bill.

Yeah, well, it's kind of hard to convince people to buy an electric car when there aren't any to buy.:rolleyes:

How about we make a practical electric vehicle first and let the people who can afford to care that much lead the way. Then we can worry about convincing people who are having trouble with their heating bill.

Better still, there are practical cars that are affordable, which run off compressed air - see MDI's website.

[QUOTE]Better still, there are practical cars that are affordable, which run off compressed air - see MDI's website./QUOTE]

That means Texas has an endless, inexhaustable supply of power for his vehicle. :D

[QUOTE]Better still, there are practical cars that are affordable, which run off compressed air - see MDI's website./QUOTE]

That means Texas has an endless, inexhaustable supply of power for his vehicle. :D




He said compressed air, not hot air. ;) So, are those Air Cars taking the market by storm?

The cars powered by hot air will do well in Washington DC.

The company, which operates coal-burning plants around Germany, decided to build the test plant at its own expense to hold onto its market and meet a self-set commitment to reduce its emissions by half by 2030. Germany, like a growing number of countries, has banned construction of new traditional coal-fired power plants to hold the line on ever-rising greenhouse gas emissions.

Coal-burning plants are the world's biggest producers of electricity. But as climate change worries mount, the billions of tons of greenhouse gases they emit each year have put in doubt coal's future as a cheap, home-grown source of electricity.