If our highways had imbeded electromagnetic coils built in every certain amount of miles, electric cars could charge themselves, just by driving over them every certain distances. This will be similar to what is going on when a car, with special transmitter/receivers, go through a toll plaza, without stoping to pay a toll, but a transaction is still recorded using electromagnetic principles.

If this is implemented, then electric cars could theoretically have a very small battery, which would make them cheaper, and just pay a fee to charge while on the fly.

These cars will have a magnetic pick up coil under the chasis, that would pick up induction power from the imbeded electromagnetic coild under the highways.

What do you think of this idea?

"What do you think of this idea?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz's_law

If our highways had imbeded electromagnetic coils built in every certain amount of miles, electric cars could charge themselves, just by driving over them every certain distances. This will be similar to what is going on when a car, with special transmitter/receivers, go through a toll plaza, without stoping to pay a toll, but a transaction is still recorded using electromagnetic principles.

If this is implemented, then electric cars could theoretically have a very small battery, which would make them cheaper, and just pay a fee to charge while on the fly.

These cars will have a magnetic pick up coil under the chasis, that would pick up induction power from the imbeded electromagnetic coild under the highways.

What do you think of this idea?





The main problem is the cost. The main advantage is that cars and trucks would not have to carry around a lot of dead battery weight. If you assume the battery is almost discharged then you are basically lugging around several hundred pounds of batteries for nothing. Also, if you also only drive around 20 miles a day on average, you are wasting massive amounts of energy carrying that extra, unused battery range.

I like the idea of transport trucks using some form of energy pick-up system. With new quick-charge technology those trucks might be able to charge up their ultra-caps or quick-charge batteries in a mile or so of roadway that has been electrified. It's almost like they were on an electrified rail. The only difference is that they would not be physically constrained to the rail and the electrification would not have to be continuous.

It's all possible but we will probably have to see what technology and conditions are like in 20 years. We might have excellent hydrogen storage or biofuels by then. Heck, there might even be a EEscam-like energy device.

Trucks might be able to use this because they are mostly confined to the freeways anyway so they would only need minimal energy reserves. There are hundreds of thousands of miles of just freeway still though. That would still cost trillions, it would make road maintenance much more expensive I would imagine because it would add a whole new dimension to it. This is a cool technology, but I don't see it happening until society gets a little closer to a Star Trek-like universe.

What do I think of the idea? Utterly impractical for moving vehicles. An inductive charging station for static vehicles at least makes SOME sense.

I'm sure it would be more cost effective to put in coin operated charging stations at every rest area in the US. I'm not sure how many there are, but seeings how the government already owns the land, they already have electrical power, even if there are 25 per state (that's probably a little high) that would mean 1,250 in the US, and so even if it cost $2,000,000 each to build them, it would only cost $2.5 billion. But even if this cost $50 billion to make happen, it's a one time fee and that's chump change compared to the oil it would save. Trucks would have easy access to them, and normal EV commuters, EVers on vacation etc. It would give EVs a gigantic edge when people know that even on long vacations, they can recharge just about anywhere along the way. It would make a $500 cross country trip into a $25 trip.

Wow, that's actually a cool idea, I should write to the Obama administration.

The only downside is that it wouldn't take long for them to get way too popular. I can see long lines to use them unless there were like 50 charging lines per rest area.

Embedded in roadways? WAAAAY too costly.

Now, inductive charging, if it could be done with great efficiency may be nice to have embedded in parking spaces so that electric vehicles could be charged easily without having to 'plug in'.

Embedded in roadways? WAAAAY too costly.

Now, inductive charging, if it could be done with great efficiency may be nice to have embedded in parking spaces so that electric vehicles could be charged easily without having to 'plug in'.

How can this possibly be any more efficient than just plugging in to an electrical outlet in the parking lot? Is plugging in a cord really that cumbersome that you'd pay for the extra induction hardware in your car?

Having it on the roads is one thing - then you never have to stop and recharge. But it makes no sense for a recharge station to be anything but plug-in (or a battery exchange.)

This does make me think that restaurants, hotels, etc. can boost their appeal by adding free outlets in their parking lot for hybrids... you can't get a full charge in a half-hour McDonald's visit, but you can certainly add several miles to your range for getting home.

Personally, I think the convenience of not needing to physically plug in the vehicle to charge it would have significant value.

Just a thought: How would you prevent some evil person from walking by and unplugging your car as a nasty trick? Under-vehicle inductive charging could prevent something like that, even if it isn't as efficient as a direct wired connection.

Just a thought: How would you prevent some evil person from walking by and unplugging your car as a nasty trick?

The same way you prevent some evil person from just deflating your car tires... slashing your car tires.... keying your car... dumping paint on your car ... etc...etc... you don't ;)

The same way you prevent some evil person from just deflating your car tires... slashing your car tires.... keying your car... dumping paint on your car ... etc...etc... you don't ;)
Then that is a definite plus for under-vehicle mounted inductive charging device, relative inefficiencies and all :) I'll use the hardwired cable at home.

Just a thought: How would you prevent some evil person from walking by and unplugging your car as a nasty trick? Under-vehicle inductive charging could prevent something like that, even if it isn't as efficient as a direct wired connection.

They could easily design a hold down same as they do with current gas cap covers on cars. When it's locked a slide prevents the plug from being pulled out.

The same way you prevent some evil person from just deflating your car tires... slashing your car tires.... keying your car... dumping paint on your car ... etc...etc... you don't ;)

Urrgh, someone slashed through the roof of my convertible top just to steal my 2 year old GPS. Shoot, I would've given it to him. The apartment complex's surveillance was worthless because they don't have any lights in the parking lot. Now I have to figure out how to replace a $1,400 canvas top when I have no job and only have $200 in my bank account :-(

There are so heartless people out there.

Duct Tape.




Urrgh, someone slashed through the roof of my convertible top just to steal my 2 year old GPS. Shoot, I would've given it to him. The apartment complex's surveillance was worthless because they don't have any lights in the parking lot. Now I have to figure out how to replace a $1,400 canvas top when I have no job and only have $200 in my bank account :-(

There are so heartless people out there.

Urrgh, someone slashed through the roof of my convertible top just to steal my 2 year old GPS. Shoot, I would've given it to him. The apartment complex's surveillance was worthless because they don't have any lights in the parking lot. Now I have to figure out how to replace a $1,400 canvas top when I have no job and only have $200 in my bank account :-(

There are so heartless people out there.
Sorry to hear that! Any chance you could find a used top at a "you pull it" yard?

Urrgh, someone slashed through the roof of my convertible top just to steal my 2 year old GPS. Shoot, I would've given it to him. The apartment complex's surveillance was worthless because they don't have any lights in the parking lot. Now I have to figure out how to replace a $1,400 canvas top when I have no job and only have $200 in my bank account :-(

There are so heartless people out there.

Sorry to hear that. I had the same experience a few years back; first it was slash and steal stereo, then again plus they took the alarm system CPU. I gave up and left the vehicle unlocked until the day I sold it. Never bothered putting a stereo back in either. The police won't even come out for this any longer in Seattle.

Thanks for the condolences. I don't think I'll be able to find any used tops since the car is very rare (14 year old Audi that only a few hundred shipped to the US). I am going to see what I can do for sure though. My only consolation is that it probably could've used a new top anyway, but this was kind of an inopportune time since it's in the middle of winter, I'm slammed with school, and I have no free cash (certainly not that much). I may just hope a home made stitch and patch job does the trick (albeit severely decreasing the resale value). I used to never lock it, but it gets to be such a hassle to take the stereo faceplate off every time (ironic sounding I know). Now I'm going to stop locking it again. Even the $300 stereo is not worth this kind of hassle.

Gotta love meth-heads.

>>How can this possibly be any more efficient than just plugging in to an electrical outlet in the parking lot?<<

1. See the the thread here "Wireless Recharging??". It can be close to 100% efficient. In fact in the EV-1 12 years ago "Charging was entirely inductive, and accomplished by placing a Magne Charge paddle in the front port of the EV1"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
....in fact GM and Toyota even agreed on a standard called the Magne Charge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_charging
....the physics are well known. If you can just drive your front bumper over a device, until a light on your dash says you are positioned correctly, that can be a much better user experience than having to handle live dirty power cords you must plug in to your car (and then unplug later), especially if it's raining or snowing out, or you have your hands full of groceries. In fact I used to run a trucking company. In the winter we would plug the trucks in so they had power for their engine block heaters. TOTAL HASSLE. The cords would get lost in snow, freeze in the ice, the snow plows would catch them and rip them in half...but we had no choice but to put up with that. These cords were $50 to $70 each by the way (they had to be 50' to 70', able to handle 10 to 15 AMPS and rated for winter use so they would not be to stiff from the cold when it was 0 to 15 degrees out). I can tell you right now, "power cords", in the winter in an out door environment is going to be a hassle. Why would I want to deal with that if I didn't have to and there is a better way?


>>Is plugging in a cord really that cumbersome that you'd pay for the extra induction hardware in your car?<<

YES. Remember when phones had cords? And when to change the channel on your TV you had to get and go turn a knob? Who wants to do that today? I LIKE I can take my phone anywhere without a cord. I LIKE I can change my TV station from my chair. In fact today its hard to buy a phone WITH a cord, or a TV WITHOUT a remote. At a >>minimum<< wireless recharging should be an option people can buy. And I think in short order no one will want to deal with "cords" for their cars again.


>>But it makes no sense for a recharge station to be anything but plug-in (or a battery exchange.)<<

It make plenty of sense!! See the "Wireless Recharging??" thread for a list of reasons why. I don't think the goal here is to go "cheap". I think the goal here should be making owning an electric car such a great experience that:
1. You will never want to go back to gasoline
2. You are willing to part with cash to buy and keep an electric car so GM can make some money. I hate to say it, but that is one of the reasons GM is building the Volt. They are a business that needs to make money so they can employ people and make products. And there is nothing wrong with that. If there is value in offering wireless, erh "cordless", recharging (even as an option) and that gives GM a way to make some $$ that's GREAT. We have all seen the news. If we want GM to stay in business and keep cars like the Volt and Converj coming they need to make some $$ here whatever way they can.

And if that, for a few bucks a month, that gets owners saying "I love this car! I'll never go back to gas! YOU need to buy one too!" then great...it only helps the future of the electric car and makes it a car more people will be open to buying.

Jeff

....and "battery exchange"???

>>But it makes no sense for a recharge station to be anything but plug-in (or a battery exchange.)<<

Are you suggesting swapping out the entire battery every 40 miles or so on a long trip? In a car like the Volt that has a Range Extender engine why would you want to "swap" batteries every 40 miles on a long trip? Even if took out the Range Extender engine it would not make sense. You would need to be sure there were places along your route that had a battery to swap out and that fit your car. Imagine the logistics of that! But even if you could do THAT do you think swapping a battery that is a few hundred pounds and several cubic feet (minimum) is going to be a 5 minuet job? And who is going to do it, you or the guy at the service station? And what's the cost of that, just in labor? And these "exchange stations" are going to have to maintain an inventory of compatible batteries that will will fit your car in a building they'll have to have just for that? What is the cost of that? Nobody will want to deal with that. :eek:

Also, you do know its not going to be like changing the batteries in your flash light, right? The connections have to be up to automotive standards so they don't get loose or corrode. These connections also have to handle high amps. Designing a "hot swappable" battery for a CAR is not as easy as many think.

Want to make electric cars unpopular real fast? Use "battery exchange".

The batteries in the Volt and other electrics should be designed for easy replacement so when there life is up or you want to upgrade to a better battery your local garage can change it for you for in a few hours. But the idea of "swapping" big heavy batteries every few miles while you are driving your electric car does not seem like a very good one, to put it mildly!

I've mused for hours on the logistical nightmare of battery swap stations.

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2217

Good thread omnimoeish.... hehe gave me a good laugh. There were some very good points made about this whole idea of swapping batteries. It just, again, shows it's easy to throw and idea out there. But when that idea hits real world realities they can blow apart pretty fast.

Well, well, well, looks like "wireless power" is really taking off....
http://www.pcworld.com/article/156872/wireless_power_energizes_ces.html

This seems nice, wireless recharging of your devices while you are in your car....
http://www.ecoupled.com/applicationsAutomotive.html

And it looks like this company intends to offer wireless recharge for electric cars, just as some of here would like to see and said was possible :D
http://www.ecoupled.com/technologyMain.html
"The intelligence of eCoupled technology allows it to dynamically seek resonance and optimize power transfers at high efficiencies (greater than 98% at 120 volts/1.4 kilowatts) under multiple, varying spatial configurations and load conditions – from low-power to high-power applications..."

humm, "the electric car that never needs to be plugged in" ....I still really like the sound of that :D

There is even a Wiki on ECoupled.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECoupled

"In 2008, it was announced that Fulton Innovation was forming the world's first Wireless Power Consortium with other companies such as Texas Instruments, Philips, and Sanyo to establish a global standard for wireless power delivery."

humm, sounds like this just might work and take off, those are some big names involved with this (hope GM signs on soon too)....don't think you power cord guys will be able to stop this one once it gets rolling....hehehehe :p

There are doubts about the feasability of this technology for moving vehicles, but I DO NOT think they can be validated.

A vehicle moving at a high rate of speed, can still couple electromangetically with an electromagnetic field emanating from the coil under the road, and once the moving coil under the vehicle starts cutting through those flux lines, a voltage is developed accross the pick up coil and current starts flowing.

If the pick up coil can be lowered close to the highway as the car approaches the magnetic field imbeded on the road, the efficiency of the system will be improved, this is called reducing the "air gap."

The amount of voltage being induced will be a function of the velocity of the vehicle as it travels accross the magnetic field, also it will be a function of the strength of the magnetic field, and how many turns of wires, the pick up coil has.

The formula to use is as follows:

E=BLvn

Where,
E is voltage induced
B is Flux density, lines of flux per square inches
L is length of conductor cutting flux lines
n is number of conductors cutting accross flux lines
v is velocity of the conductors cutting through the flux lines

There are doubts about the feasability of this technology for moving vehicles, but I DO NOT think they can be validated.

A vehicle moving at a high rate of speed, can still couple electromangetically with an electromagnetic field emanating from the coil under the road, and once the moving coil under the vehicle starts cutting through those flux lines, a voltage is developed accross the pick up coil and current starts flowing.

If the pick up coil can be lowered close to the highway as the car approaches the magnetic field imbeded on the road, the efficiency of the system will be improved, this is called reducing the "air gap."

The amount of voltage being induced will be a function of the velocity of the vehicle as it travels accross the magnetic field, also it will be a function of the strength of the magnetic field, and how many turns of wires, the pick up coil has.

The formula to use is as follows:

E=BLv

Where,
E is voltage induced
B is Flux density, lines of flux per square inches
v is velocity of the conductor cutting through the flux lines

There are doubts about the feasability of this technology for moving vehicles, but I DO NOT think they can be validated.

A vehicle moving at a high rate of speed, can still couple electromangetically with an electromagnetic field emanating from the coil under the road, and once the moving coil under the vehicle starts cutting through those flux lines, a voltage is developed accross the pick up coil and current starts flowing.

If the pick up coil can be lowered close to the highway as the car approaches the magnetic field imbeded on the road, the efficiency of the system will be improved, this is called reducing the "air gap."

The amount of voltage being induced will be a function of the velocity of the vehicle as it travels accross the magnetic field, also it will be a function of the strength of the magnetic field, and how many turns of wires, the pick up coil has.

The formula to use is as follows:

E=BLv

Where,
E is voltage induced
B is Flux density, lines of flux per square inches
v is velocity of the conductor cutting through the flux lines
If you want to transfer reasonable amounts of energy to the EV, you will need a very strong magnetic field. You neglected to calculate the drag created on the vehicle as its pickup cuts through the flux lines of the stator coils.

Yes, drag is an issue. It has to be taken under consideration as a design parameter. More ideas are needed to make this work part of it work.

In terms of having a strong enough field, so that meaningful amount of energy can be transfered, I do not view this as a great challenge

Yes, drag is an issue. It has to be taken under consideration as a design parameter. More ideas are needed to make this work part of it work.

In terms of having a strong enough field, so that meaningful amount of energy can be transfered, I do not view this as a great challenge
Start costing it out, along with the necessary infrastructure, and you will see that any kind of powered roadway is utterly impractical for general use. Detailed discussion of this topic has been done previously. You will find its supporters and detractors. I fall into the latter camp, being an electronic design engineer with a few decades of experience. Among my design repertoire you will find power magnetics and switching power supplies. This dog doesn't hunt.

I should mention that I could get behind a stationary inductive charging station, although the cost and efficiency will never equal that of a simple power cord. I just have problems when someone wants to promote a "powered roadway" for wide use.

I agree: Inductive power coupling for an electric interstate highway system to create energy independence for the U.S. seems the best approach.


A Dual Mode Electric Transportation (DMET) system is under development in which energy is electromagnetically transferred from a powered roadway to moving vehicles. Energy from the roadway can be used for high-speed, long-range travel and for replenishing energy stored in the vehicle in batteries or flywheels. The stored energy is then available for short-range travel off the powered highway network. The power coupling between roadway and vehicle is functionally similar to a transformer. A source is embedded in the roadway flush with the surface. When the vehicle's pickup is suspended over the source, energy is magnetically coupled through the clearance air gap between pick-up and roadway source. The electromagnetic coupling mechanism has been extensively studied through computer models, circuit analyses and by tests of a full-size physical prototype.
- Source: IEEE

http://http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/group.php?v=info&ref=mf&gid=271709614190

The main problem is the cost. The main advantage is that cars and trucks would not have to carry around a lot of dead battery weight. If you assume the battery is almost discharged then you are basically lugging around several hundred pounds of batteries for nothing. Also, if you also only drive around 20 miles a day on average, you are wasting massive amounts of energy carrying that extra, unused battery range.

I like the idea of transport trucks using some form of energy pick-up system. With new quick-charge technology those trucks might be able to charge up their ultra-caps or quick-charge batteries in a mile or so of roadway that has been electrified. It's almost like they were on an electrified rail. The only difference is that they would not be physically constrained to the rail and the electrification would not have to be continuous.

It's all possible but we will probably have to see what technology and conditions are like in 20 years. We might have excellent hydrogen storage or biofuels by then. Heck, there might even be a EEscam-like energy device.

The problem with hydrogen (oil part II) is its another inflexible toll road that allows the same unenlighted war mongering people to retain influence and power. A lot of what's behind the green movement is trying to remove the lunatics from power permanently.

Hydrogen strikes me as another barrier to entry scam but this time the barrier to entry is for the citizen and they are being denied access to an empowered future over corporate influence.

The problem with hydrogen (oil part II) is its another inflexible toll road that allows the same unenlighted war mongering people to retain influence and power. A lot of what's behind the green movement is trying to remove the lunatics from power permanently.

Hydrogen strikes me as another barrier to entry scam but this time the barrier to entry is for the citizen and they are being denied access to an empowered future over corporate influence.

The green movement should be called the watermelon movement - green on the outside, red on the inside.