HHO producting vehicles and electric cars in trouble? [Archive]

JoeReal

11-03-2008, 04:19 PM

BUT LITHIUM SUPPLY IS NEVER A PROBLEM!!!

These guys might be seeking funds for mining lithium in other countries or perhaps a prelude to A123 going IPO to make us believe that lithium is in short supply and so they are all profitable.

Ahh, I found some old notes back:
From this site: http://lithiumabundance.blogspot.com/

"Posted by R. Keith Evans
Saturday, March 29, 2008
ABSTRACT
In 1976 a National Research Council Panel estimated that Western World lithium reserves and resources totaled 10.6 million tonnes as elemental lithium.

Subsequent discoveries, particularly in brines in the southern Andes and the plateaus of western China and Tibet have increased the tonnages significantly. Geothermal brines and lithium bearing clays add to the total.

This current estimate totals 28.4 million tonnes Li equivalent to more than 150.0 million tonnes of lithium carbonate of which nearly 14.0 million tonnes lithium (about 74.0 million tonnes of carbonate) are at active or proposed operations.

This can be compared with current demand for lithium chemicals which approximates to 84,000 tonnes as lithium carbonate equivalents (16,000 tonnes Li).

Concerns regarding lithium availability for hybrid or electric vehicle batteries or other foreseeable applications are unfounded. "

And another one by Mike, sorry, I lost the original link to my notes, but here's what he said:
"Currently around 20,000 tonnes of lithium are mined each year, meaning that the US Geological Survey's figure of 11 million tonnes equates to a reserve of centuries at today's usage. It occurs at around 50ppm in the crust, making it more common than lead or tin and about ten times as abundant as uranium (uranium, for comparison, has estimated reserves of 4 million tonnes). With increased demand and a rise in its price it is therefore reasonable to conclude that reserves will grow with time. Indeed, this is what the historical data show: an 8.4 million tonne reserve in 1996, 9.4 million tonnes in 2001, and 11 million tonnes in 2006.

In order to facilitate the necessary advances in battery technology and increased extraction of minerals such as lithium, we need to be encouraging the adoption of hybrid cars at a greater rate. As we discussed on a previous thread, these could reduce liquid fuel use in transportation by up to 50% alone and could be converted to plug-in hybrid vehicles (giving a projected 80% drop in l.f. use) at a later date when greater capacity batteries are available.

Your idea of small, localised "pods" is a comforting fallback option when considering the problems caused by peak oil. Indeed, it is already occuring in the UK in a small way as people are moving back into the city centres in increasing numbers. However, the loss of freedom, mobility and choice inherent in the scheme makes it a far less desirable way of life than the one we currently enjoy. Speaking personally, I would give up many other things before sacrificing my car. Thankfully, technology may mean I won't have to. :) "

My only conclusion is that with respect to known very cheap and easy to extract lithium mines maybe in short supply, but there will be more prospectors, and there is too much abundance of lithium to really worry about it. The salt flats where drainage water concentrate and dry out have higher concentrations of Lithium, aside from the normally mined deposits. You can look at the data where oil drillers took samples of the earth, they sure knows where there are concentrated deposits of Lithium. Perhaps, they could be hoarding the information so that they can mine for it themselves. Let the tsunami type demand come, and more will be mined if such demand will outstrip the current and newly found reserves, it has never been and will never be a problem.


GM-Volt: Chevy Volt Forum > Chevy Volt > Chevy Volt News and Events > HHO producting vehicles and electric cars in trouble? PDA : HHO producting vehicles and electric cars in trouble? rgathright 11-03-2008, 04:15 PM Due to a decreasing world supply of lithium, HHO producers and electric cars may have trouble buying batteries! World Lithium Supplies May Hamper Growth - PCAuthority (http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/127314,world-lithium-supplies-may-hamper-growth-of-electric-car.aspx) http://i.haymarket.net.au/utils/pca/ImageResizer.ashx?n=http%3a%2f%2fbackoffice.ajb.co m.au%2fimages%2fnews%2felectric-car.jpg&w=220 JoeReal 11-03-2008, 04:19 PM BUT LITHIUM SUPPLY IS NEVER A PROBLEM!!! These guys might be seeking funds for mining lithium in other countries or perhaps a prelude to A123 going IPO to make us believe that lithium is in short supply and so they are all profitable. Ahh, I found some old notes back: From this site: http://lithiumabundance.blogspot.com/ "Posted by R. Keith Evans Saturday, March 29, 2008 ABSTRACT In 1976 a National Research Council Panel estimated that Western World lithium reserves and resources totaled 10.6 million tonnes as elemental lithium. Subsequent discoveries, particularly in brines in the southern Andes and the plateaus of western China and Tibet have increased the tonnages significantly. Geothermal brines and lithium bearing clays add to the total. This current estimate totals 28.4 million tonnes Li equivalent to more than 150.0 million tonnes of lithium carbonate of which nearly 14.0 million tonnes lithium (about 74.0 million tonnes of carbonate) are at active or proposed operations. This can be compared with current demand for lithium chemicals which approximates to 84,000 tonnes as lithium carbonate equivalents (16,000 tonnes Li). Concerns regarding lithium availability for hybrid or electric vehicle batteries or other foreseeable applications are unfounded. " And another one by Mike, sorry, I lost the original link to my notes, but here's what he said: "Currently around 20,000 tonnes of lithium are mined each year, meaning that the US Geological Survey's figure of 11 million tonnes equates to a reserve of centuries at today's usage. It occurs at around 50ppm in the crust, making it more common than lead or tin and about ten times as abundant as uranium (uranium, for comparison, has estimated reserves of 4 million tonnes). With increased demand and a rise in its price it is therefore reasonable to conclude that reserves will grow with time. Indeed, this is what the historical data show: an 8.4 million tonne reserve in 1996, 9.4 million tonnes in 2001, and 11 million tonnes in 2006. In order to facilitate the necessary advances in battery technology and increased extraction of minerals such as lithium, we need to be encouraging the adoption of hybrid cars at a greater rate. As we discussed on a previous thread, these could reduce liquid fuel use in transportation by up to 50% alone and could be converted to plug-in hybrid vehicles (giving a projected 80% drop in l.f. use) at a later date when greater capacity batteries are available. Your idea of small, localised "pods" is a comforting fallback option when considering the problems caused by peak oil. Indeed, it is already occuring in the UK in a small way as people are moving back into the city centres in increasing numbers. However, the loss of freedom, mobility and choice inherent in the scheme makes it a far less desirable way of life than the one we currently enjoy. Speaking personally, I would give up many other things before sacrificing my car. Thankfully, technology may mean I won't have to. :) " My only conclusion is that with respect to known very cheap and easy to extract lithium mines maybe in short supply, but there will be more prospectors, and there is too much abundance of lithium to really worry about it. The salt flats where drainage water concentrate and dry out have higher concentrations of Lithium, aside from the normally mined deposits. You can look at the data where oil drillers took samples of the earth, they sure knows where there are concentrated deposits of Lithium. Perhaps, they could be hoarding the information so that they can mine for it themselves. Let the tsunami type demand come, and more will be mined if such demand will outstrip the current and newly found reserves, it has never been and will never be a problem. JoeReal 11-03-2008, 04:23 PM There are great strides in ultracapacitor technologies and they are going to be alternatives to powering electric vehicles. And these capacitors are not made of Lithium. And I am not even counting EESTor's vapor UC's. There are also other batteries aside from Lithium based. For example, GE has molten salt batteries, and there are still others in various development stages.