http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/124258,toshiba-unveils-new-battery-prototype.aspx

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Toshiba has unveiled a battery prototype that offers a 90 percent charge capacity in just 10 minutes.
The Super Charge Ion Battery (SCIB) is capable of handling 5,000 to 6,000 recharge cycles, compared to the typical 500 offered by standard lithium-ion batteries.

The new battery is composed of a durable material that offers a high level of thermal stability and prevents overheating. In addition, the unit will not explode when crushed.

According to Toshiharu Watanabe of Toshiba, the "excellent performance of the SCIB will assure its successful application in industrial systems and in the electronic vehicles markets as a new energy solution".

Indeed, the long-awaited Schwinn Tailwind electric bicycle will reportedly feature a SCIB battery that charges in less than 30 minutes


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This is some very exciting news. Imagine all the individuals living in apartments and condos that can now drive to charging stations and charge their cars to 90% in 10 minutes.

I am excited to see what the future holds. I just hope that the auto industry does not let us down.

The same with Tesla's batteries. It gets quickly recharge to 90% in 10 minutes. And I think A123's batteries can be quickly recharged to 90% in roughly the same time.

NOW, let us tie this information with the Volt spec. GM has repeatedly mentioned that they will only recharge batteries to 80% SOC from 30% SOC. The 80% SOC level is obviously less than 90%, in other words, if your "dedicated" line can deliver the amperage, you can theoretically recharge the Volt in under 10 minutes if you use these batteries.

I can't understand why you need to prolong to long hours, ie, overnight, to recharge your batteries to 80% SOC.

But for 10 minutes recharging of 8 kWH on a 220 Volt line, you need about 220 Ampere rated line, and if you want some factor of safety, you would use a 240 Ampere capacity line, which I haven't seen in any typical household residence. So the 10 minute recharging cannot be supported by any typical household circuits.

But I know connecting RV's have been an option, so 220 Volt 60 Ampere line is more common. It is going to cost me about $930 (material and installation) to add a 220 Volt 60 Ampere line into our existing household circuit panel, for use with a dedicated EV recharging outlet or to connect an RV.

If I drain the line at 50 A for the Volt, without frequent tripping of the breakers, this would take 45 minutes recharging to load up 8 kWH, which is still not really pushing the limits on how fast the battery can handle.

But GM had been saying the 3-hour recharging time for the 220 Volt line, and 6 hours for the 110 Volt line. This means that the bottleneck in these cases is not the household circuit, rather it is the on-board recharger that the Volt has or perhaps the inferior cheaper batteries used.

“ But for 10 minutes recharging of 8 kWH on a 220 Volt line, you need about 220 Ampere rated line, and if you want some factor of safety, you would use a 240 Ampere capacity line, which I haven't seen in any typical household residence. So the 10 minute recharging cannot be supported by any typical household circuits… ” – JoeReal

Yes, indeed! Future gas stations will have a good size shed full of batteries charged during off-peak hours by special industrial power line. Just as you drive to gas stations to refill gas today, you will get charged with new supply of juice in 10 minutes or so. By that time super-cooled inductive charging pad over which you park your car should be available.

The Toshiba battery in question is now being shown at an industry show in Japan. Toshiba’s explanation for quick charge feature is that since the negative side electrode is made of oxide (remnant of combustion) rather than carbon or other combustible material, it can withstand high temperature and, therefore, does not cause fire. Cost wise it is still 2 to 3 times more expensive than other Li-ion batteries according to a report.

A123's battery is superior to this Toshiba "new" battery. And A123 had it 3 - 4 years ago!

How come Toshiba is not telling what the chemistry is, if its so great?

Joe, where I am, 100 A 220v household circuits is typical, and many people put in 200 A circuits.

Also, if GM is using LiMn2O4, then I doubt you can charge that 80% SoC in 10 minutes. That is basically a laptop battery. No laptop battery can charge that fast. Its not difficult to look up the ratings, but only nLiFePO4 can be so fast.

Are you sure Joe about recharging LG Volt in 10 minutes for 30 - 80% SoC? LG cannot handle that.

G35X -- why would you need batteries at charging stations?

A typical 25 kV line can deliver 25 MW easy. Divide by 8 kWh / .166 = 48 kW and you get 520 !!!

That is, the gas station is charging 520 Volt like cars simultaneously, every 10 minutes! Why would you need such huge power, when you will have only 6 cars bay?

It is amazing how much power a transmission line can deliver, and how little an EV requires.

No need for charge station batteries, unless you want to charge more than 520 Volt EVs simultaneously!

Joe, where I am, 100 A 220v household circuits is typical, and many people put in 200 A circuits.

Also, if GM is using LiMn2O4, then I doubt you can charge that 80% SoC in 10 minutes. That is basically a laptop battery. No laptop battery can charge that fast. Its not difficult to look up the ratings, but only nLiFePO4 can be so fast.

Are you sure Joe about recharging LG Volt in 10 minutes for 30 - 80% SoC? LG cannot handle that.

Yes, you help confirm my suspicion about GM using LG instead of A123 batteries.

I'll talk to my electrician about the 200 A circuit for the 220 Volts line. Maybe he has spare 60 A circuit from his other previous contracts and trying to save money for himself and have me install those. I'll ask around some more.

I hope one of these days, GM would use better batteries and better on-board recharger, then the recharging would even be quicker at 200 A, that would be about 11 minutes only.

You don't just istall a 200 amp breaker to have 200 amps capacity. That decision goes all the way back to the pole. You would need larger gage wire from the pole to your house and a larger 200 amp panel. Even then a 200 amp service would be for your entire house so you still wouldn't have 200 amps available for any single circuit. In fact I doubt you will find anything larger than a 100 amp breaker built for the type of panel you would typically find in a house. Also a power company will charge you more for having a 200 amp service vs 100 amp service. So you would want to figure that into your cost of being able to charge faster.

You don't just istall a 200 amp breaker to have 200 amps capacity. That decision goes all the way back to the pole. You would need larger gage wire from the pole to your house and a larger 200 amp panel. Even then a 200 amp service would be for your entire house so you still wouldn't have 200 amps available for any single circuit. In fact I doubt you will find anything larger than a 100 amp breaker built for the type of panel you would typically find in a house. Also a power company will charge you more for having a 200 amp service vs 100 amp service. So you would want to figure that into your cost of being able to charge faster.

It is assumed to have that kind of power rating and capacity already, from the "pole" to the new houses. Actually most new housing have underground distro rather than from poles. Usually bigger houses have bigger power capacity, you know, you use bigger HVAC and other appliances, including space for RV connections. Houses that are usually greater than 4,000 square ft with 3 or more car garage, they don't use wimpy lines when built.

But of course, I haven't checked the blueprints myself, may have to spend time to look over microfiche films from the city.

My house (just 12 years old) came with 200A service. I know 100A is common because that is what I have feeding my garage from the house. I do know it is feasible to get another 200A line feeding my garage, but that's definitely extra and it may even a separate meter.

“ …why would you need batteries at charging stations? “ – Mohsen

Because if direct charging is done during peak hours it adds burden on the grid, which is already in a rather sorry state. Charging a bundle of high-capacity batteries (better yet, capacitors) with otherwise wasted energy during off-peak hours saves money and overall emission of pollutants.

G35X, you are correct that there are limits to daytime charging. But that should just raise the price up during daytime, causing people to avoid it and charge at night. If a station does not receive enough power during the day, it will jack up the pump price to the point that it will have to draw less power.

This is supply-demand. Again, you do not need batteries, unless some authorithy comes in and tries to price regulate electricity!

Now some entrepreneur may figure that it makes sense to charge batteries at night and make a tidy profit during the day. That will happen, but will NOT be a necessary condition.A

So you don't need batteries at charging stations, unless you wish to make a profit from low off-peak prices.

So yes, there will be batteries for profit making reasons and not because they are strictly required.

oto recharge an EV batteries back to 90% in 10 min would require conductors the diameter of a telephone pole LOL

At my company we have 440V 80Amp circuits the condiuit is about as thick as a can of spray paint

oto recharge an EV batteries back to 90% in 10 min would require conductors the diameter of a telephone pole LOL

At my company we have 440V 80Amp circuits the condiuit is about as thick as a can of spray paint

Power is current times voltage. Energy is a product of power and time applied.

Current capacity is proportional to the cross sectional area of the conductor.

So I don't believe that we need a copper wire with a cross sectional area of average telephone pole.

do your engineering calcs properly and show it here. ;)

According to http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

A copper wire AWG 4/0 with a diameter of ONLY 0.460 inches (this is by far less than the typical diameter of 8" telephone poles) will have a maximum rating of 380 amperes. And we needed only a 220 ampere capacity line at 220 volt to deliver 8 kWH in 10 minutes.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge
NFPA 70 National Electrical Code 2008 Edition. Table 310.16 page 70-148, Allowable ampacities of insulated conductors rated 0 throrugh 2000 volts, 60°C through 90°C, not more than three current-carrying conductors in raceway, cable, or earth (directly buried) based on ambient temperature of 30°C. Extracts from NFPA 70 do not represent the full position of NFPA and the original complete Code must be consulted.

And for the AWG 4/0 wire, with a diameter of 0.460 inches (LESS THAN HALF AN INCH):
at 60 deg C, the amperage is at 195
at 75 deg C, the amperage is at 230
at 90 deg C, the amperage is at 260.


And to deliver 8 kWH within 10 minutes require only about 220 Amperes and definitely a copper wire that is half an inch thick will do the job. At 440 Volts, it would be far less than that, perhaps only around 1/4 inch diameter. So the company has been had by lousy paranoid engineers. They should all be fired. Some engineering background is not that hard, even a 5th grader can learn some simple engineering calcs from Wikipedia.

Conduits are different than the conducting media... Don't confuse. Conduit sizes are sometimes decided by the city planners or managers who commonly have zero engineering background but surely political support.

oto recharge an EV batteries back to 90% in 10 min would require conductors the diameter of a telephone pole LOL

At my company we have 440V 80Amp circuits the condiuit is about as thick as a can of spray paint

zeksteve, you are wrong (as joereal has shown).

80 amps is not spray paint can diameter. A car battery cable is 300 amps and about 3/8" in diameter.

Also, the electric charge station gets power at 25,000 volts 3 phase or 69,000 volts (grid voltage) and NOT 440 volts.

you are off on both counts (volt and ampere)

zeksteve, conduits have nothing to do with conducter size. there may be a hundred conductors in one conduit, and conduit is sized so that wire can eaisily be pulled in it and there are fire codes as well.

if that is what your engineers are doing (specifying 2.5 inch conductors for 80 amps), then you have been had - that is why managers should have a science degree and not a degree in arts or literature

Finally these batteries seem to be ready for production. I have been waiting since summer - when they were originally expected to go on sale. I'm looking forward to seeing the first EV conversion using these babies. I hope they don't price them too high. I know they can and will but maybe they will drive down the cost ramp quickly.

I disagree with the other posters that feel quick-charging stations do not need electrical storage. I feel it’s essential. Imagine if you will 3 BESUVs (Battery Electric Sport Utility Vehicle) come in off the highway to be charged up. If a Tesla needs 53 kWh every 200 or so highway miles I'm guessing that SUV will need about 80 kWh. That's a massive 240 kWh in 10 minutes! No standard line is going to handle that. It will be much better for our new smart grid to have the ability to charge cars when there is high energy demand and also to store when there’s excess energy supply. If you think big picture you can imagine the many thousands of charging stations acting to help store intermittent sources of energy from our huge solar and wind farms (coming soon) and to help store the massive amounts of energy being pumped out by our nuclear power plants at night (already at the party).

Thus, quick-charge stations with sufficient electrical storage fed by nearby solar and wind farms. An almost ideal renewable solution that will help keep our smart grid happy and stable.

Texas
That's a massive 240 kWh in 10 minutes!

240 kWh/10 in minutes is 1.4 MWs power.

Well guess what -- your standard 25 kV city connection to distro can be as high as 25 MW. Yup, those poles you see in alleys carrying 3 wires each, can deliver 25 MW. That is, they deliver 25/1.4 == 18 times what you need for a high-powered EV charging station!!!

(Note actually most 3 phase 25 kV distros are about 10 to 15 MW max, but can go as high as 50 MW if necessary.)

No batteries are needed, unless you are arbitraging between cheap night time power and expensive daytime power.

Texas

240 kWh/10 in minutes is 1.4 MWs power.

Well guess what -- your standard 25 kV city connection to distro can be as high as 25 MW. Yup, those poles you see in alleys carrying 3 wires each, can deliver 25 MW. That is, they deliver 25/1.4 == 18 times what you need for a high-powered EV charging station!!!

(Note actually most 3 phase 25 kV distros are about 10 to 15 MW max, but can go as high as 50 MW if necessary.)

No batteries are needed, unless you are arbitraging between cheap night time power and expensive daytime power.




I disagree. Randomly switching these huge power draws will cause unwanted spikes that will require additional equipment to smooth the power distribution. Additionally, it is very expensive to have high voltage lines run to a commercial property. Please cost the two options out and you will see the obvious cost advantage of having on-site electrical storage. A small quick-charge station can have a standard (and inexpensive) connection that would be able to charge their electrical storage systems 24/7 at nice even rates that will reduce the problems for the utilities. The utilities can also use the electrical storage systems to help balance out all of the new renewable systems being placed on their grids and thus pay for the privilege. It's a very nice working relationship between the utilities and the quick-charge stations.

We will have to wait and see but I expect that there will be few if any quick-charge stations without electrical storage nearby. Place your bets.

Randomly switching these huge power draws will cause unwanted spikes that will require additional equipment to smooth the power distribution.

Obviously the battery charging module will be smart enough not to instantaneously connect and disconnect the power. It can be easily spread over a few seconds. Remember, the main 138 kV or higher transmission grid will be charging 100s of cars at the same time, so some go on and some go off, and it is a random pattern that will average the load.


Additionally, it is very expensive to have high voltage lines run to a commercial property.

heh, 25 kV is not "high-voltage". That is standard city distribution (which is from 6 kV to 35 kV). Already most main streets have 25 kV or 12.5 kV 3 phase. You wrongly think that city distribution must be 600 volts or something? Check with your local utility company.

25 kV connection is very inexpensive. You find it on poles in most neighborhood with pole mounted transformers to 110 and 220 (or 600 3 phase for industrial use) that look like small barrells.

Why should a charging station invest in huge battery banks when it can cheaply get a 25 kV connection and share the load with other industrial/commercial/residential operations? An industrial operation uses way more than 1.4 MW, and they are all over the place. A high-rise building may use 1 MW easy. These are no less than an EV charging station. How come they dont need batteries?

Batteries are only good for charging cheap power at night and selling it expensive during the day. They do not solve a technological problem. Just an economic problem (opportunity).

Why don't you back up your idealistic "marriage of renewables with EV charging through storage" thesis with some numbers? You are talking out of greenie idealistic ideology, and not out of empiricological reasoning.

cheers

Sometimes I wonder if most people can really grasp just how much 1 MW of power generation is. Thus, here are some pictures that should help put things in perspective. Additionally, The design of the substation needed is a balance of reliability and cost. Many factors must be considered including sufficient land for installation, clearances for safety (don’t be fooled by someone who says that 25 kV is not high voltage - it would fry you in an instant), as well as access for maintenance of equipment like transformers, ground potential rise calculations to protect people in the event of a short-circuit, etc. The design of quick-charge stations is not as simple as some might suggest (just tap a high-voltage line and that’s it). The huge draw of multiple EVs and the possibility of them all being switched on at once requires careful design and planning. Add to that the availability and cost of these power feeds and one can start to see the real picture. Thus, I stand by my earlier prediction that future quick-charge stations will have some form of energy storage to facilitate these huge power transfers. We can argue about it all day but until there are designs done and working stations to examine we will just have to wait. I have my $1 bet already placed. Do you?


1MW solar furnace
http://www.sollab.eu/images/promes-1.jpg


3.2 MW solar installation
http://solardesigns.com/static/solar-farm-mallorca.jpg


2 - 1MW diesel generators
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/10411515/2_1_MW_Diesel_Generator_Sets.jpg


2.5 MW substation
http://www.lincenergy.com.au/IMG/LINC%20WEB%20JPEG%2016.jpg

Impressive pics, Texas! Thanks.

I knew what you meant about the 25 kV. Not to be picky, but I'd like to remind us that it is the current that primarily kills us, not just the voltage. Many of us regularly get a jolt of anywhere from 5,000 to 100,000 volts and sometimes more (depending upon how sharp the edge of contact is), running a current of nano to micro-amperes, lasting for microseconds, but just enough to jolt us, not kill us, and commonly happens during dry winter days when we step out of the car that has ran at or above the implied speed limit.

Why can't you put a trailer hitch on the Volt and tow a 220V generator around behind you, and every 40 miles stop and in ten minutes be on your way for another 40 miles, the generator wont take much gas in ten minutes, I wonder how long it would take to get to New York from Los Angeles


----NO PLUG, NO SALE----- =D----$00.00

Wouldn't work. A small trailer genset can easily crank out voltage (think of water pressure). The problem is the amperage (think of flow).

You multiply the two together to get your total power (or in other words, to turn a waterwheel, you need flow and pressure- and you can turn it faster either by increasing flow [amps] or increasing pressure [volts]).

Water and electricity don't mix... except during analogies :)

If you need a simpler explanation, just think of this: You need a genset that's big enough and powerful enough to crank out enough electrical energy in just 10 minutes to power a car driving 25 miles an hour for almost 2 hours. It could happen, but you would be towing a nuclear power plant.

Sometimes I wonder if most people can really grasp just how much 1 MW of power generation is. The huge draw of multiple EVs and the possibility of them all being switched on at once requires careful design and planning. Add to that the availability and cost of these power feeds and one can start to see the real picture.

Lets be scientific instead of playing language games.

1.4 MW which is what you need for a charging station is relatively small. A generator the size of a small car can easily generate 10 MW (I have one).

A small industrial operation can easily consume 1 to 10 MW. Have you not seen these connections behind warehouses and workshops in industrial sections of the city? (of course for the greenie, there is no such thing as manufacturing. All value is produced by English and art majors pushing paper in government funded projects.)

Your pictures are designed to be misleading because they use solar energy and there is little of it captured per square yard.

Again, the standard in-city distribution is "medium voltage" 3 phase 25 kV. These can deliver up to 50 MW (I know cause I have one of these too). But usually are about 10 MW.

10 MW/1.4 MW = 7. That is, a low current 25 kV connection can feed 7 high-speed charging stations. And the balancing and surge protection is a well known engineering issue with tons of good solutions.

Texas, pls. show numbers, instead of language and pictures. Thanks!

1.4 MW which is what you need for a charging station is relatively small. A generator the size of a small car can easily generate 10 MW (I have one).




A 10 MW generator is the size of a small car?! On what planet would that be on? Here is another exaggeration by the poster and this should show people how out of touch the poster is...


The following is the specification sheet for the latest Cummins QSK78 Diesel Generator:


http://www.cumminspower.com/www/common/templatehtml/technicaldocument/SpecSheets/Diesel/na/s-1529.pdf

It can continuously generate 1.95 MW. Are you ready for the dry weight? 37,791 lbs! Folks, please imagine the size of a 10 MW generator. Size of a small car? I don’t think so.

Now, this poster seems to claim I don’t think running a quick-charge station without electrical storage would work. I just claim that the cost and bother of doing so would be higher than a system that used electrical storage that would allow the use of a more standard utility connection and be much easier to implement. Again, until we see the designs and costs of each we will not know. Again, I ask the poster to place his bet and wait. He seems to just want to argue and scream that I’m not using numbers. The real numbers that matter are the cost of the implementation. For that we need a proper design. It’s not the same as just hooking up a building because they don’t just switch on and off the whole building at once. We are talking about 1MW switching. The poster can claim it’s as simple as plugging in your clothes dryer but it’s not. Picture the amount of energy needed to drive 3 Hummers 250 miles (about 4 hours of driving) and then transfer all of that energy in ten minutes. Yes, that’s what we do with gasoline and it’s amazing. That’s why replacing gasoline and diesel is not that easy. It’s a monumental task.

Hi Texas,

Mohsen said that a 10MW generator could be the same size as a small car - that means space (volume), not mass.

That generator you linked to measures 219.3" L x 88.62" W x 101.1" H. That translates to 18.3 feet long, 7.4 feet wide, and 8.4 feet high. Maybe closer to the size of a small delivery truck, but not too far off from the size of a small car.

A motor-generator should be heavy, since it's basically a solid block of metal.

Hi Texas,

Mohsen said that a 10MW generator could be the same size as a small car - that means space (volume), not mass.

That generator you linked to measures 219.3" L x 88.62" W x 101.1" H. That translates to 18.3 feet long, 7.4 feet wide, and 8.4 feet high. Maybe closer to the size of a small delivery truck, but not too far off from the size of a small car.

A motor-generator should be heavy, since it's basically a solid block of metal.





Thank you. Of course those dimensions are for a generator 5 times less powerful than a 10 MW generator. Then you have to include the housing, safety and maintenance areas, etc. The point is that this is a massive amount of energy to produce and I didn't want readers to think a generator the size of a Honda Civic (small and light) would get the job done. Again, look at the 1 MW generator pictures I posted before. They are massive!! Again thank you for getting out the dimensions of the generator. Are you agreeing with the other poster that supplying 1MW of switched energy is as simple as tapping an overhead line? If so, I guess you should also place your bet.

I would also like people to look at the big picture for a moment. We have over 100,000 gas stations in the US. Now I don't know how many quick-charge stations will be needed in the new paradigm where people will be slow charging at home, work, during shopping, etc. but imagine that all of the quick-charge stations are trying to fill all of those EV SUVs right after work during rush hour which just happens to be very close to peak energy demand. I doubt our previous poster thought too much about that. The grid is at peak demand and all of these massive energy transfers are being zapped from the grid right at the wrong time. Hummmm.

In my design, during peak demand the transfers would be done using the energy stored during non-peak periods. The stress on the grid would be much less than if all of the cars and trucks were also drawing. Anyway, again I will say that I placed my bet for quick-charge stations with electrical energy storage. It just fits much better in the overall smart grid system. The amount of energy our transportation system uses is very large and we need to think about how it will integrate to the grid. It is not a simple design as some posters think.

When dealing with megawatts of energy, nothing is "simple" - especially once you get past the "glib concept" stage. It expect that it IS do-able, though.

Am I the only one who is a little . . . ah, what's the word? Not scared . . how about "respectfully cautious" when considering how much energy is going to need to be transferred to complete charge an electric vehicle in a mere few minutes? I just got back from repairing my sister's electric furnace, who someone else had "repaired" by using an incorrectly small gauge of wire in the supply lead to the resistive heating elements. It wasn't pretty. That was a "mere" 240VAC @ 30A.

Hi Texas,

Mohsen said that a 10MW generator could be the same size as a small car - that means space (volume), not mass.

Texas misunderstands the debate. I am not talking about a diesel generator. I am talking strictly the power generation unit (the alternator). without attachment to the mechanical engine. For example, a generator that is attached to a wind turbine or hydro turbine. He is talking about "generator set" complete with diesel engine and gas tank, etc..

A 10MW power generator is the size of a small car. I will send pictures, because I got one!

Altazi is correct. Its the volume. The mass is about 10 tons, as it is almost solid metal. (size = 3 physical dimensions, weight = energy dimension E=mc2, the 6th dimension). Texas got the dimensions wrong. He is confusing dimensions #1, 2, 3 with dimension #6. (not telling what is dimension #5 -- anybody wants to venture a guess?).

Thanks Altzai.

Texas misunderstands the debate. I am not talking about a diesel generator. I am talking strictly the power generation unit (the alternator). without attachment to the mechanical engine. For example, a generator that is attached to a wind turbine or hydro turbine. He is talking about "generator set" complete with diesel engine and gas tank, etc..

A 10MW power generator is the size of a small car. I will send pictures, because I got one!

Altazi is correct. Its the volume. The mass is about 10 tons, as it is almost solid metal. (size = 3 physical dimensions, weight = energy dimension E=mc2, the 6th dimension). Texas got the dimensions wrong. He is confusing dimensions #1, 2, 3 with dimension #6. (not telling what is dimension #5 -- anybody wants to venture a guess?).

Thanks Altzai.



Altazi, Mohsen has not completely thought though his argument for the real debate - running the quick-charge station directly and thus causing serious drain on the grid (when looking at the big picture) or using electrical storage to smooth out the shock and demand on the grid, especially during peak demand. Now he has grasped on a small technical detail by saying the generator of a 10 MW genset is the size of a small car (please don't forget it's the weight of a ship's anchor).

I posted a picture of a 1 MW generator (yes, you need all the other components to deliver the power, not just one part) just to give people an example so they can get a handle on how much power we are talking about. It's a lot of power! Regardless, I think most people would agree with my arguments (if they read though this thread) that running a quick-charge station directly would cause undue stress on the grid (or the grid would have to be made excessively large and shock-proof) to handle the huge demand of our transportation system (we have around 170,000 gas stations in the U.S.).

I would like to hear Mohsen's rebuttal on that important point of our debate, not how big (volume only please) one part of a gen set is. Does that really support his main argument? No, it does not. We call that grasping for straws.

Texas -

Here is a picture of a 15MW generator. A 10MW is about 2/3 of this size. The folks at the back are far behind so this picture actually appears larger than it is. Look at the railing in front for comparison.

This thing is 10 to 20 tons.

Its size is that of a car.

Texas you are wrong on most counts. One reason is that you refuse to supply numbers because you never took physics or math, and must have graduated in arts and English literature, like most of the greenies. Your method of thinking is value-based idealo-rhetoric. For example when trying to say the generator is heavy, you dont say how many tons. You say "it weighs as much as a ship's anchor". Well duhhhhh, how much does that weigh? Which ship, etc. No wonder the lefto-greenies always lose the arguments when they face people who have studied science and engineering - classes that they failed and had to drop out.

I majored in EE. What is your major (cultural studies? trans-gender studies? FESSUP!)

Your whole point is that a 1 MW charging station with 3 bays will destroy the power supply through transients, and thus needs expensive storage batteries.

A good sized city uses about 5000 MWs. 1 MW, or .4 MW per vehicle gets lost in this system like as if it were noise. The whole charging station is backed up by the 10 MW connection to the grid and beyond. You have no idea how powerful those high-voltage grid transmission lines are. One high-voltage line can carry 2,000 MW or even 3,500 MW for the newer ones.

And 25 kV connection costs very little. Much less than the gasoline storage tanks you find at gas stations.

1- when charging begins, the charger will obviously "ramp in" the load, so that the load does not appear on the line in milliseconds, but in seconds. this allows the system to cope with the load surge.

2- The grid system of 5000 MW is backing up the 0.4 MW load. It makes very little difference to the grid.

3- such transitions get averaged throughout the city. Industrial concerns of 1 MW or so continuously come in and out and the grid handles them.

4- When a major load suddenly appears, this causes a voltage drop and frequency drop. This is why your lights sometimes go dimmer, because a huge load comes on. This immediately is compensated by a huge number of generators who have momentum built into their operation. Then the generator will provide higher power to compensate. Hydro gens will open the valve and draw more water. Gas will fire more gas to the turbine. Breakers will close drawing power from neighboring grids if necessary. Etc.

5- Studies have shown that if 80% of cars become plug-ins and charged at night, there is NO need to increase the power rating of the grid or the generators. You areunder the delusion that EVs will consume too much power. Not so.

6- A 5000 MW city at night about 4 AM uses only 3800 MWs. During the day about 5 pm, that goes up to 5000 MW. 1200 MW gets cut in and out during the day. And you say the system cannot handle 0.4 MW ??

Besides why would everyone want to charge at 5 pm when the price of power is about 6 times that of 2 AM? If that is not a big enough difference, then let the market handle that.

Your problem is that you think socialistically -- that people have to be forced to not charge during certain hours or the system will need storage etc. So you compound 1 problem (forcing hours on people) with another problem: expensive storage (which I am sure you want taxpayers to pay for).

The market can optimize the system, and bring order to charging, by making the daytime prices high so people would charge at night.

Texas says: In my design, during peak demand the transfers would be done using the energy stored during non-peak periods.

Aha, that was my whole point, that you finally arrived at. Storage is best for time shifting power to arbitrage the prices.

So you concede that this is a market activity, after all.

You dont need storage to allow for huge number of charging vehicles during daytime. The price of power will take care of that (if the socialists allow it and dont pass laws trying to set prices on electricity!) Economics 101 (another subject that lefties hate): If the demand exceeds the supply during daytime, the price will rise until the system balances. Just like in a flood: The water level rises until draining can balance the flooding.

Now you go legislate storage, thinking you have such a great idea and are being of such great service to humanity (NOT!). Only that the taxpayer has to pay for this blunder, while if allowed, natural market forces could take care of the imbalance naturally and effortlessly, without destroying good capital - that could have been used for better purposes.

"The road to hell is paved with good lefty-greenie intentions."

No wonder the lefto-greenies always lose the arguments when they face people who have studied science and engineering - classes that they failed and had to drop out.

I majored in EE. What is your major (cultural studies? trans-gender studies? FESSUP!).




Ah, have you ever noticed when someone looses and argument they begin an attempt to regain their lost respect by saying what they do an how great they are? So predictable. If it’s any consolation, Mohsen, I have beat opponents far more intelligent and knowledgeable about energy than yourself. Lift up that chin and keep on plugging away. Consider it a learning experience. A good argument needs no introduction. It can stand on it’s own.


P.S. Since you like to nitpick you said that you majored in EE. Does that mean you didn't graduate or haven't yet? It just seems to me that if you were an EE you would just say so. For example, "I'm an EE and thus all my arguments are correct."

Note to readers: Just because someone is an EE (or have taken some courses) does not make them an expert in power distribution. There are EEs that spend their whole careers working with microchips and thus would not be the best people to design a complicated smart grid that will power our transportation system and be stable and cost effective. Our illustrious poster did not look at the big picture and thus overlooked major design considerations. Place your bets.

Ah, have you ever noticed when someone looses [sic] and [sic] argument they [sic] begin an attempt to regain their [sic] lost respect by saying what they [sic] do an [sic] how great they [sic] are [sic]? So predictable. If it’s any consolation, Mohsen, I have beat [sic] opponents far more intelligent and knowledgeable about energy than yourself. Lift up that chin and keep on plugging away. Consider it a learning experience. A good argument needs no introduction. It can stand on it’s own.



I do notice, Texas, that after all of your pontificating, you failed to answer Mohsen's question: "What is your major?"

I would expand upon that and ask the following:

What is your educational background? What degree(s) have you received, and from what institution(s)? What is your professional background?

Altazi - I think I know where Texas is coming from. Sub-consciously, without even being aware of it, he is thinking that the daytime price of electricity will shoot through the roof (agreed, as EVs want to charge at the office, E-stations, etc.). Then he thinks that a lot of POOR people are going to be burnt, as their electric bills go up.

So he thinks the solution is mandated battery stations so that EV owners get charged the cost of the batteries and not the POOR paying higher power prices.

Just another socialistic scheme to take away from the middle class and hand it to the people who choose to work less or have lesser merits, for whatever reasons.

So Texas is willing to introduce deadweight and waste into society (the not-needed battery storage) just in order to tax one class for the benefit of another class, i.e. redistribution of wealth.

This is where he is wrong. If you want to redistribute wealth, then do it the proper way through social democracy. I.e. different tax rates and welfare checks.

Don't tinker with a sophisticated market mechanism (grid, distro lines, e-stations, EVs, etc etc) because your "good" intentions are just reciepe for disaster and waste, and you can never come close to understanding the empirical complexity that the market can handle.

But of course the average anti-progress greenie-lefty has no idea about economics, science or engineering, so they just blabber on why battery storage must be legislated.

This is the depth of understaning of the NObama crowds. Enuf said.

“ …that the daytime price of electricity will shoot through the roof… “ – Mohsen

We must not forget that the grid system is already maxed out in many areas, California for example. And there are bottlenecks that impede smooth flow of electricity from other areas, thence the threat of brownouts and rotating blackouts. In other words, during hot peak hours it cannot take any more additional heavy draw. However, even in this rather sorry current situation still there is plenty of surplus during off-peak hours. Suppose the surplus is 5GW for 10 hours (actually more in California alone), it is enough to charge more than 6 million Volts fully if this surplus is stored in batteries or capacitors at the charging stations. The benefits are:
1) You do not add burden on the grid during peak hours.
2) It improves the bottom line of utility companies by selling otherwise wasted electric energy.
3) The Volts on the road reduce CO2 emission by replacing gas-powered commuters (at least for the first 40 miles). Emissions from coal- or gas-fired plants do not change since they have to be kept operating anyway, payload or not.

The price at charging stations should settle down to somewhere between the home-charging cost and the price of gas to go for 40 miles.

By the way the U.S. style free-market system is not really Laissez-faire. It is sprinkled with subsidies, tax breaks, protective import duties and quotas and, as we are witnessing these days, government buyouts and rescue loans. It is rather left leaning.

If the price of power were allowed to float, you would see that during the tight summer peak hours on hot days, the price of power will become astronomic, to the point that people would turn off their ACs or other marginally useful consumptions.

Also the high prices would encourage more power production.

The problem with California is that it is a closed system where the utility cos are stopping new transmission lines from bringing power in, so that the existing monopolies can milk the population to their fullest. The Greenies have also sided with the monopolies and have stopped new transmission lines for other reasons.

Power in Washington is $55, and there is excess power available, while its $120 in Socal. There are not enough transmission lines. PG&E & the Greenies have monopolized the market. And then Greenies think they are saving some mountain goats or some owl or something, not knowing that they are tools of the monopolies and millions of poor people are paying through their noses to bloated, unionized, and inefficient power companies.

Another example of where the "well intended" greenie-lefty in total ignorance is impoverishing the masses.

There is a politics forum. This is a forum about batteries. There is a difference.