Yes we have been quoted that the Volt is $40K, and the battery costs $10K. Are we suppose to believe that it costs GM $30K to produce a Malibu body that has an electric motor and a genset?

There are cheap reliable electric motors, there are very cheap generators, and the car's body should be very cheap to produce at this time and age. I would be more forgiving if the body is that of the original Chevy Volt concept car.

Is the new Malibu style body, the electric motor, the genset, and the accessories actually costs $30K ? If it really does, GM has a tremendously large overhead and will not be a viable company.

The battery, although a major cost is really not to take all the blame. The $10,000 battery price is way too high, considering that this would be a large contract.

So I don't think this would really add up to $40K, even if you factor in the approportioned cost of R&D and finance charges for retooling.

I can emphatize that GM wants to get as much dough during the first few releases, but for a game changing technology such as the Volt, price would be a major barrier. Loss leader is the way to make the technology hit critical mass.

I'm assuming that you'll be able to buy a PHEV Prius in 2010 for $30,000. Honda is also targeting its Insight to less than $20,000. If GM goes with a price of $40,000, I don't see how they'll get much market share. They are already way behind Toyota and Honda.

Toyota and Honda are already the quality leaders so I should pay more to buy a Volt because...?

I'm assuming that you'll be able to buy a PHEV Prius in 2010 for $30,000. Honda is also targeting its Insight to less than $20,000. If GM goes with a price of $40,000, I don't see how they'll get much market share. They are already way behind Toyota and Honda.

Toyota and Honda are already the quality leaders so I should pay more to buy a Volt because...?

Because it's a fully electric vehicle unlike the prius or insite. For 90% of your driving you won't be burning any gas at all! That's not to say that the japanese hybrids won't be very competitive given their lower price and high mileage, but it's silly to compare them directly to the volt.

GM can release the Volt at $40,000, and it won't bother me. I'll just wait a year or two until one of their competitors comes out with a superior product (ahem, MAZDA, ahem) at a lower price.

GM will have the benefit of a monopoly on this technology for the first year or two until the rest of them catch up, so I can't blame them for trying to take advantage of it. They should limit production and make the car $39,995 for the first few years. They will make all kinds of money on a niche product.

Fact is, most people won't pay more for the car than they will save compared to a similar alternative, EREV or no EREV. If the Volt isn't cheaper in the long run, it won't succeed.

The plug-in Prius will still be a parallel hybrid, lacking a full-electric drivetrain. Those companies will continue to make money on parts and service for a very long time. I think that GM doesn't want to rip us off, but will not cut us a break on this car, due to it's low maintenance and parts costs. You could think of conventional cars as having a subsidy. The manufacturers give you a really good price, because they know that you have to come back for parts and service. (Sort of like a phone company gives you a nice price on a phone, but you have to come to them for service.) I know there are other variables involved too, but this is probably a factor. Another thing to consider is that GM is also including the price of an extra battery replacement in the warranty. Well, they are pricing the car to expect that. I'm not sure I like that, but anyways it is what it is.

$40K is a bit much for many to spend on a new car of this class. The Volt in order to be competitive against a regular gasoline car needs to be priced $30K, $35K at the most. Reasoning here is that if you save say $900 a year on gas by buying a Volt instead of say a Malibu for $27K, you will be paying to much up front in order to save money on gas. If the Volt costs $13K more than a comparable Sedan like the Malibu, it will take you about 14 and a half years to recoup the extra money you spend to save money on gas! Hopefully they can get the price of the car down to $30K or so. It would be nice if they can price it at the current price of a Toyota Prius which sells for around $28K fully loaded.

lets see a American Built roller with a nice equipped interior including unions costs $12.000
ICE 2000
Generator 1500
Battery pack 10,000
AC motor and controller should be around 6000
gear box?
charger 700
now what about RD costs?

GM wants to sell these cars. To help make them affordable they're asking congress to give buyers a $7k tax credit. With any new technology, the first models are always the most expensive. In a few years costs comes down and the products also improve. Look at the cell phone and the PC in the early years. Lets just be happy GM is leading the way in getting us off of gas. Because of their leadership all of the other car companies are in warp speed with their own innovations trying to catch up. In a few yars mass production will kick in coupled with competion and price will be nothing to worry about.

To help pay for mine I'm thinking about getting a second job and put that money into GM stock, which I expect to go through the roof, then cash it in to buy my volt.

$40K is a bit much for many to spend on a new car of this class. The Volt in order to be competitive against a regular gasoline car needs to be priced $30K, $35K at the most. Reasoning here is that if you save say $900 a year on gas by buying a Volt instead of say a Malibu for $27K, you will be paying to much up front in order to save money on gas. If the Volt costs $13K more than a comparable Sedan like the Malibu, it will take you about 14 and a half years to recoup the extra money you spend to save money on gas! Hopefully they can get the price of the car down to $30K or so. It would be nice if they can price it at the current price of a Toyota Prius which sells for around $28K fully loaded.

If you drive the Volt for the length of the powertrain warranty (150,000 miles) and assume 30 mpg and $4 / gallon it adds up to $20,000 of gasoline over the life of the car. That compares to about $2,500 if you drove the same miles all electric. That's a savings of $17,500. If you also get a $7,000 tax credit, you've now knocked $24,500 off the cost of the car leaving the final cost at about $15,500 or less than a Civic.

For a much nicer car.

:p
GM can release the Volt at $40,000, and it won't bother me. I'll just wait a year or two until one of their competitors comes out with a superior product (ahem, MAZDA, ahem) at a lower price.

GM will have the benefit of a monopoly on this technology for the first year or two until the rest of them catch up, so I can't blame them for trying to take advantage of it. They should limit production and make the car $39,995 for the first few years. They will make all kinds of money on a niche product.

Fact is, most people won't pay more for the car than they will save compared to a similar alternative, EREV or no EREV. If the Volt isn't cheaper in the long run, it won't succeed.

How is Mazda going to produce a superior product? From what Ive seen, the Volt appears to be top of the line technology. Im buying the Volt because I dont want to send anymore money to OPEC. Even if it does cost more at first! Oil prices are unstable and unpredictable.

the simple answer ... profit...

The RD is not all GM's nickel ... the U.S. government has been feeding GM allot of money every year for many many years trying to encourage them to do the research and make a better car... although I doubt we will ever know the true price of the research... I expect more than 50% of all the RD costs for the volt were already paid for by U.S. Tax dollars.... and the U.S. already passed a bill in 2007 that is giving $25 Billion to help pay for the retooling costs.... also it is not like they have not been selling and getting money for the research they have been doing.

The company is just in die need of improvement... more so in the company structure and management than in the products they sell.

In the first year almost all the Volts are going to be sold long before the dealers even get them. IF you can find one that isn't already sold the Dealer isn't even going to even want talk to you unless you have a wad of cash in your hand.

It happens all the time here in Anchorage, you go to the GM dealership and they have some new model on the showroom floor and its 10~20K over sticker price for no other reason then its the last unit they have and they know someone will buy it at that price.

My guess is the car will be retailing near $40k ($39999.999999).

plus a buttload of incentives once production picks up. They will all be sold out of first year production - regardless of price. You can pretty much count on that.

It happens all the time here in Anchorage, you go to the GM dealership and they have some new model on the showroom floor and its 10~20K over sticker price for no other reason then its the last unit they have and they know someone will buy it at that price.

Sadly, that is one thing dealerships do that gives car companies bad names,

Production numbers have a lot to do with cost of the vehicle. The less of a car that is produced the more it costs to make/make money off of.

Production numbers have a lot to do with cost of the vehicle. The less of a car that is produced the more it costs to make/make money off of.

I won't buy any car unless 100% of it has been produced! ;)

If you drive the Volt for the length of the powertrain warranty (150,000 miles) and assume 30 mpg and $4 / gallon it adds up to $20,000 of gasoline over the life of the car. That compares to about $2,500 if you drove the same miles all electric. That's a savings of $17,500. If you also get a $7,000 tax credit, you've now knocked $24,500 off the cost of the car leaving the final cost at about $15,500 or less than a Civic.

For a much nicer car.


what do you work for GM or something (sure sounds like it):eek:

what do you work for GM or something (sure sounds like it):eek:

Do you dispute the information LampCord posted? Whether or not he works for GM is irrelevant if the information is good. It seems that his assumption of 30mpg might be a little low, and who knows where the price of gasoline will end up. We have seen it upwards of $5/gallon, and even though it's now approaching $2/gallon, I think it's likely that it will be rising in the future. The $7,500 tax credit is a done deal, AFAIK.

The only point where LampCord's opinion comes into play is where he compares the Volt to a Honda Civic. I suppose that is arguable if you are a Honda fanboy . . .

Do you dispute the information LampCord posted? Whether or not he works for GM is irrelevant if the information is good. It seems that his assumption of 30mpg might be a little low, and who knows where the price of gasoline will end up. We have seen it upwards of $5/gallon, and even though it's now approaching $2/gallon, I think it's likely that it will be rising in the future. The $7,500 tax credit is a done deal, AFAIK.

The only point where LampCord's opinion comes into play is where he compares the Volt to a Honda Civic. I suppose that is arguable if you are a Honda fanboy . . .

One of the members of the forum posted a good Excel model on Volt economics. My conclusion is that the economics of the Volt are very iffy when compared to a Prius (and you get one less passenger) unless gas prices get very high or the Volt price comes down significantly, even with the $7500 government incentive.

One of the members of the forum posted a good Excel model on Volt economics. My conclusion is that the economics of the Volt are very iffy when compared to a Prius (and you get one less passenger) unless gas prices get very high or the Volt price comes down significantly, even with the $7500 government incentive.

No argument from me. My point was that the posted information was what should be discussed, not whether or not the poster worked for GM.

That "one less passenger" thing might steer me away from the Volt - I am wondering if there will be three seatbelts in the back (with the middle seat position being decidedly uncomfortable, but usable for short periods), or only two belts.

No argument from me. My point was that the posted information was what should be discussed, not whether or not the poster worked for GM.

That "one less passenger" thing might steer me away from the Volt - I am wondering if there will be three seatbelts in the back (with the middle seat position being decidedly uncomfortable, but usable for short periods), or only two belts.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I should have thought about your post more carefully before responding. I agree with your point.

I'll get a Volt (if I can) even with the limit of 4 seats, but only because I only have two kids and I really want a RE-EV.

One of the members of the forum posted a good Excel model on Volt economics. My conclusion is that the economics of the Volt are very iffy when compared to a Prius (and you get one less passenger) unless gas prices get very high or the Volt price comes down significantly, even with the $7500 government incentive.

One thing that no one seems to have mentioned is that the general
consensus is that we have reached peak oil. This means that there
will not be any large new sources of oil coming - it's all downhill from
here.

Depending on who you listen to, oil shortages could begin within
20 years, or maybe not for 50 years, but the current burn rate
is not sustainable, and that assumes that demand from emerging
markets like China and India do not increase, which is a fairly
ignorant assumption.

So, one of the big advantages of the Volt over a Prius, is that most
folks can get to work and back on electricity alone with a Volt. If
there is ever another oil embargo, or prices suddenly shoot
through the roof (no precendent for that, eh?), the Volt owner
will be much less affected.

Yes we have been quoted that the Volt is $40K, and the battery costs $10K. Are we suppose to believe that it costs GM $30K to produce a Malibu body that has an electric motor and a genset?

There are cheap reliable electric motors, there are very cheap generators, and the car's body should be very cheap to produce at this time and age. I would be more forgiving if the body is that of the original Chevy Volt concept car.

Is the new Malibu style body, the electric motor, the genset, and the accessories actually costs $30K ? If it really does, GM has a tremendously large overhead and will not be a viable company.

The battery, although a major cost is really not to take all the blame. The $10,000 battery price is way too high, considering that this would be a large contract.

So I don't think this would really add up to $40K, even if you factor in the approportioned cost of R&D and finance charges for retooling.

I can emphatize that GM wants to get as much dough during the first few releases, but for a game changing technology such as the Volt, price would be a major barrier. Loss leader is the way to make the technology hit critical mass.


You hit the nail on the head - It was bad enough that the final version wasn't what we were looking forward to based on the concept visuals, just another ordinary looking car but they want $40K?? Forget it, not interested any longer!

40 mile range
No country wide infrastructure
Europe is miles ahead in motor and battery design, not to mention efficiency of electric motors

I just don't see how a car that is only more fuel efficient compared to other modern cars should cost $40,000. How do you drive it cross country? The generator running the entire time?

I am a huge enthusiast about electric cars. I have been waiting for one for many years, but this is ridiculous. The only people willing to spend that much money on a car with the limitations this one has, are the people who have the money not to care about fuel economy and the environment to begin with.

Europe is miles ahead in motor and battery design, not to mention efficiency of electric motors

If so, why haven't I seen a European EREV on the road? Support for this kind of statement is needed. Please supply links proving these statements.

The plug-in Prius will still be a parallel hybrid, lacking a full-electric drivetrain. Those companies will continue to make money on parts and service for a very long time. I think that GM doesn't want to rip us off, but will not cut us a break on this car, due to it's low maintenance and parts costs. You could think of conventional cars as having a subsidy. The manufacturers give you a really good price, because they know that you have to come back for parts and service.

The typical American consumer will not appreciate that GM will justify hiking the price to reflect the "low maintenance & parts costs" of the Volt. If anything they have demanded that reliability no longer be sacrificed in the name of lower prices. Witness the rise of Japanese market share in the last 20+ years.

Ok, so we all acknowledge this. So what new point am I making?

If GM believes that a $40k or even $30k price tag is a good starting point for a mainstream electric vehicle, then they are arrogant at best, and hopelessly out-of-touch at worst. I vote for the latter.

Folks, have we forgotten that this will be badged a CHEVROLET? $30 to $40k for a Lexus Volt? Yeah, that's realistic. $30k for an Acura Volt? Yup, that's do-able. But for a Chevy? Come on. When was the last time that a premium-priced car worked on a value-conscious GM brand. Or did we forget the disaster that was the Saturn Sky (beautiful car, btw)?

In this economic climate, it will be difficult to convince ppl to absorb a higher upfront cost to realize potential savings down the road b/c Americans now want it three ways. Low pricing + low maintenance + high mpg.

For that reason, I predict that unless GM finds a way to lower it to $23 to $27k, the Volt will be seen as a textbook case of a good idea that failed in the execution stage.

If you're gonna sell it for $40k, at least have the decency to call it a Cadillac. Geez.

Europe is miles ahead in motor and battery design, not to mention efficiency of electric motors

Battery design?... I think you're confusing Europe with Asia. Japan is and always has been dominating lithium ion battery production. Korea and China are catching up quickly.

Sweeping statement + no supporting evidence = rubbish

Showed A coworker the volt, he was in love with it.. until he heard the price. he said there was no way he would spend more than 20k and nothing I said changed his mind.

I'll spend the 40k though!

I don't know how you guys can quibble about the $40k price point at this point without having full disclosure of every component found on the car.

I mean seriously, go price a Sigma 200-500mm f/2.8 camera lens. *cough* $25,999.00

What's with everyone's obession with buying junk? Man, I just took a new 22" monitor out of it's box today, and wow, talk about junk. The VGA cable was so thin it amazes me it can even pass an acceptable signal, perhaps they made up for the signal loss, by shorting the cable, the thing was like 4 feet long! The video scalar couldn't even handle certain signals. Not sure how much any of that matters as the thing will probably fail within a couple of years due to low grade electronics.

People need to educate themselves on what more money gets you.

The poor engenieers and designers right now are probably trying to figure out what "nice" components they can swap out with "junk" to bring the price down and make you people happy.

My guess is by the time this vehicle makes it to market, it WILL be closer to 30 then 40, and it will have hubcaps, and everything that goes along with that price point!

People talk about how demand will strip supply. With that said, they should be making something "decent" and correspondingly "$40k" if you can't afford it, don't cry about it and wreck it for those that want something "decent".

Why did you buy a junky monitor? What model was it?

Why did you buy a junky monitor? What model was it?

Fair question! :) I didn't buy it - this was a monitor at work; and it was a Samsung display.

While I personally own a Sony; Eizo (not to be confused with Vizo) makes the good stuff for those interested.

----

Back to the Volt - Has GM officially released any pricing or is it all ballpark speculation or target pricing?

The typical American consumer will not appreciate that GM will justify hiking the price to reflect the "low maintenance & parts costs" of the Volt. If anything they have demanded that reliability no longer be sacrificed in the name of lower prices. Witness the rise of Japanese market share in the last 20+ years.

Ok, so we all acknowledge this. So what new point am I making?

If GM believes that a $40k or even $30k price tag is a good starting point for a mainstream electric vehicle, then they are arrogant at best, and hopelessly out-of-touch at worst. I vote for the latter.

Folks, have we forgotten that this will be badged a CHEVROLET? $30 to $40k for a Lexus Volt? Yeah, that's realistic. $30k for an Acura Volt? Yup, that's do-able. But for a Chevy? Come on. When was the last time that a premium-priced car worked on a value-conscious GM brand. Or did we forget the disaster that was the Saturn Sky (beautiful car, btw)?

In this economic climate, it will be difficult to convince ppl to absorb a higher upfront cost to realize potential savings down the road b/c Americans now want it three ways. Low pricing + low maintenance + high mpg.

For that reason, I predict that unless GM finds a way to lower it to $23 to $27k, the Volt will be seen as a textbook case of a good idea that failed in the execution stage.

If you're gonna sell it for $40k, at least have the decency to call it a Cadillac. Geez.
Since when does a Chevy have to be some stripped down piece of crap with no options and a sub $30k price tag? Why would the Cadillac nameplate make any difference to you if all of the components are the same?

Since when does a Chevy have to be some stripped down piece of crap with no options and a sub $30k price tag? Why would the Cadillac nameplate make any difference to you if all of the components are the same?

Clearly they don't have to all be sub $30K. The Corvette demonstrates that. I think the Corvette ZR-1 at $104,920 is the most expensive car GM sells. It has a bow tie on it and there is a wait list to get one.

Having said that, there is a public perception that all Chevy does is cheap crap, and perceptions do matter when it comes time to market something. There will be people that will see the $40K price tag on the Volt and pass on it because it has the Chevy branding. Those same people probably would take a chance on the car if it said Cadillac. Conversely though, If the Volt were to be marketed as a Cadillac, I think there would be many who would never check it out because of the feeling that it must be out of their price range.

Had I been in charge, I would have made it a Buick. This would have given Buick much needed product, their quality rep would have not scared people away and it would be a good fit with their price ranges. Later, when they figure out how to make Voltec cheaper, I would then have done a Chevy. That's just me though.

I agree with DaV8or however I believe that Chevy was the right brand to market the Volt under as opposed to Buick. Assuming customers are "Brand loyal" Chevy has a larger consumer base, and IMO would better reach the target audience.

(For the record, I've never owned a Chevy)

Chevy has a larger consumer base, and IMO would better reach the target audience.

That raises an interesting point, who is the target audience? Given the necessary high price of the Volt, I think it needs to be people with disposable income that are either concerned about the environment or foreign oil. To me, this sounds more like Prius owners rather then Cobalt or Malibu owners. People accustom to Toyota reliability are going to be wary of switching to any GM product, but in the case of Buick, they can at least point to the fact that Buick consistently rates highest in the GM family for reliability and customer satisfaction. I think this would help the Volt's case to a suspicious group of potential buyers.

It's a moot point though. The Volt's a Chevy. End of story.

That raises an interesting point, who is the target audience? Given the necessary high price of the Volt, I think it needs to be people with disposable income that are either concerned about the environment or foreign oil. To me, this sounds more like Prius owners rather then Cobalt or Malibu owners. People accustom to Toyota reliability are going to be wary of switching to any GM product, but in the case of Buick, they can at least point to the fact that Buick consistently rates highest in the GM family for reliability and customer satisfaction. I think this would help the Volt's case to a suspicious group of potential buyers.

It's a moot point though. The Volt's a Chevy. End of story.
You also have to think that Buick has a stigma of being and old person's car. My girlfriend still says "Buick? Who wants to drive a Buick?" Now I know that Buick has really come up a ton in quality. My grandparents have a Rendezvous which is a great car. So quiet and refined even though it's essentially a Tahoe. I think the Volt works well as a Chevy, and I really wish GM would get their head out of their ass and keep Saturn around because that'd be the perfect nameplate for the Ampera.

I think the Volt works well as a Chevy, and I really wish GM would get their head out of their ass and keep Saturn around because that'd be the perfect nameplate for the Ampera.

I'm sure GM would love to keep Saturn, but they're broke, sucking off the government teat and Obama's steering the ship. If the markets were functioning as they should, there would be no General Motors anymore. At this point, the Ampera may never come to be. With Saturn gone and Fiat hot and bothered to buy Opel, it may never happen.