Jun 12

Elon Musk Goes On Twitter Rant About Automakers Killing EVs

 

By Tim Healey

Who killed the electric car?

Most of us know that phrase as the title of a documentary that explores factors that limited production of EVs, specifically General Motors’ EV1. The actions of automakers, specifically those of GM, are one of those factors blamed in the film.

Now one of today’s key figures in the EV world is also blaming GM, claiming the genesis of his company was inspired by the automaker crushing EVs.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk took to Twitter to take investors to task for shorting his company’s stock. In so doing, he said that he and others started Tesla in 2003 as a response to GM sending electric vehicles to the crusher.

SEE ALSO: Elon Musk Is At It Again With Another Wild Transportation Idea – Video

He further asserted that since large “legacy” automakers were busy killing off whatever EV programs they had, the only chance for EVs was for him to start his own company, even though, in his opinion, any new company started to sell EVs was certainly doomed to failure.

SEE ALSO: Elon Musk Adds Details On What To Expect From Model 3

Musk says he didn’t start Tesla to make money or chase government incentives, and he thought Tesla was the only chance for EVs, despite what he calls a 90 percent probability of failure. On that note, he also claims the company almost failed “many times.”

Musk’s Tweetstorm brings back memories of the 2006 film referenced above.

Certainly, Musk had already made plenty of money before Tesla, so perhaps he’s telling the truth about not starting Tesla to make money, but on the other hand, just about all businesses aim to turn a profit at some point.

Maybe Musk was simply on the defensive after reading an article that claimed Tesla is the most shorted stock in the U.S. equity market, with short interest in the company totaling around $10.4 billion.

If so, he might be cheered to know that as of the end of the day Thursday, Tesla stock was at $370 a share, which was an all-time high. The company’s stock is up 73 percent since the beginning of 2017 and 61 percent over the past 12 months. Much of that is based on anticipation of the upcoming Model 3, which is set to launch this year.

The rise of Tesla’s stock has caused consternation among industry observers, as legacy automakers have taken hits on Wall Street amid sales that are leveling off and dropping after the industry hit its post-recession peak. This despite the fact that legacy companies like GM are seeing record earnings, sales slump or not, while Tesla has yet to show a sustained profit.

Tesla has a lot riding on the Model 3, and a history of development delays caused by defects and other problems. Perhaps Musk is feeling a little punchy, knowing that any launch problems with the Model 3 will cause critics to pounce – and be a boon to those who shorted the stock.

CNBC, HybridCars.com

This entry was posted on Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

COMMENTS: 97


  1. 1
    Mark Z

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (6:08 am)

    Musk is brilliant. Post comments to Twitter and get a million dollars of free advertisement from the media. He is crushing the competition with superior performance.

    With Bolt, Model 3 and the used Model S market, the 200+ mile BEV is affordable as well. Who would have dreamed all of this occurring just 5 years ago.

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  2. 2
    BAZINGA

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (6:31 am)

    I’m not smart enough to understand “shorts”, “market cap” etc but I do know or at least FEEL after owning three Volt’s that GM doesn’t have their heart 100% into EV’s. How else can you explain questionable dealer enthausium for selling EV’s and almost ZERO advertising. I know selling Silverado’s feeds the beast and allows GM to live, but the wall to wall TV commercials of all these “real folks” wetting themselves over Silverado’s popping out of boxes is getting old.

    And say what you will I still believe GM’s lack of support for ANY sort of super fast charging infrastructure for the Bolt speaks volumes to me at least.

    I love our Volt(s) having driven them over 55K miles over 96% of the miles electric with almost ZERO defects. But when I have to tell dealer staff I’m able to do this they look at me like I have lobsters growing out of my ears.

    I’ve as miffed as Elon.

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  3. 3
    MnVikes

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (6:54 am)

    So he tweets about an event that happened 14 years ago?
    What this is really about is TSLA stock price.
    Even if the Model 3 is a smashing success, I’m not sure it justifies their current stock price.
    Don’t get me wrong, I’m hoping they succeed and are rewarded for their leading the EV revolution.

    Tesla performance has boosted their appeal even though consumers don’t need 4,500 lb vehicles that do 0-60 in less than three seconds. He better start focusing on reliability or the Model 3 could doom Tesla if thousands of customers are waiting weeks to months for parts.

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    Taser54

     

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (7:32 am)

    Isn’t Elon supposed to be on the assembly line working the same tasks as his overworked and oft injured line workers? Oh right.

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  5. 5
    Ziv

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (7:50 am)

    Never let the truth get in the way of a meme.
    “… against the will of their owners” Uh, Musk, not one person ever owned an EV-1. They were leased because GM knew how much of a risk they were taking. What they didn’t realize was just how far the nut jobs would go with the polemic when the brass hats at GM decided to minimize the risk of long term liability and costs by crushing the EV-1 fleet.
    GM was stupid but they weren’t evil. The EV-1’s were recalled in 2003 and the Volt program began in 2007. The knowledge they gained from the EV-1 is why the Volt is such a solid car.

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  6. 6
    Dan Petit/Petit Technical College

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (8:00 am)

    I think Elon ought to tweet more, and rally even
    **********
    ***more***
    **********
    stock out so that mini-dealerships can be set up in Texas.
    Why “mini”?
    Because service departments for a Tesla are one fifth the technological tasking of ICE.

    This is not as financially cumbersome as it would seem.
    As I wrote yesterday, a hyper-management “just-in-time” service scheduling for vehicular needs can be crafted to overcome typical scheduling delays caused by customer schedule changes.

    This can be done, as Elon has proven a brilliant capability to drive the mission relentlessly forward.

    All of us, no matter what type of vehicle we drive, have a MORAL obligation to the next generations to help in any way we can.
    At this point in time, each of us should ask ourselves,
    Is this guy and his mission worthy if my support even as an attempt to mitigate what will surely happen to humanity and my very own grandchildren most assuredly?

    Can you even say “I need to think about it more as I look at my children and grandchildren and great grandchildren outside right now playing?”

    Could you have an answer for yourself right now? Tomorrow?

    *******************************
    * The Day After Tomorrow? *
    *******************************

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  7. 7
    bro1999

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (8:01 am)

    MnVikes:
    So he tweets about an event that happened 14 years ago?
    What this is really about is TSLA stock price.
    Even if the Model 3 is a smashing success, I’m not sure it justifies their current stock price.
    Don’t get me wrong, I’m hoping they succeed and are rewarded for their leading the EV revolution.

    Elon has said himself that TSLA’s stock price is overvalued, saying “I do believe this market cap is higher than we have any right to deserve” and “We’re a money-losing company”.

    Boiled down to market cap per car sold, Tesla is valued at $800k/unit sold, compared to around $6k/car and $5k a car for Ford and GM. Even BMW, which outpaces Ford and GM in this metric by a lot, still is only valued at around $25k/car sold.

    If there is any hiccup with the Model 3, expect that stock price to adjust downward accordingly. I’ve already placed a sell order on my Tesla holdings. 105% net profit is a decent time to get out I think. 🙂

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  8. 8
    bro1999

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (8:03 am)

    Ziv:
    Never let the truth get in the way of a meme.
    “… against the will of their owners”Uh, Musk, not one person ever owned an EV-1. They were leased because GM knew how much of a risk they were taking. What they didn’t realize was just how far the nut jobs would go with the polemic when the brass hats at GM decided to minimize the risk of long term liability and costs by crushing the EV-1 fleet.
    GM was stupid but they weren’t evil. The EV-1’s were recalled in 2003 and the Volt program began in 2007. The knowledge they gained from the EV-1 is why the Volt is such a solid car.

    Honestly, I think Elon just has sour grapes that GM, the “murderer of EVs” beat Tesla at its game in getting out an affordable, 200+ mile BEV to the market. Page literally taken right out of Elon’s master plan.

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    Sheldon

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (8:22 am)

    I’m not smart enough to understand “shorts”, “market cap” etc but I do know or at least FEEL after owning three Volt’s that GM doesn’t have their heart 100% into EV’s… And say what you will I still believe GM’s lack of support for ANY sort of super fast charging infrastructure for the Bolt speaks volumes to me at least.

    Kudos to Elon, and also to our local Chevrolet dealer, who I’m very happy with. I also think its weird the GM didn’t add 32 amp (6.6kw@208v) charging support to the gen2 Volt. That makes it much harder to take advantage of public charging.

    As far as GM and Bolt fast charging infrastructure – that’s a tough one. Anything GM could have done comes up way short compared to Tesla’s supercharging network; so better to position the car as a mostly local car and take advantage of the growing DCFC network provided by others.

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    Dan Petit/Petit Technical College

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (8:26 am)

    Who killed the electric car?

    Battery tech just wasn’t there.

    Ford used 24 8-volt flooded lead acid batteries in the E-Ranger.
    It was a superb set of highest quality parts and systems except for the batteries that lasted 18 months due to limited physics of lead acid.
    Replacement was a 3 week * nightmare * that took up a third of the dealership shop bays, and the 60 individual battery terminal torque specs were difficult to assure.

    Nickel metal hydride still wasn’t good enough as a three to four year proposition, as cells in series could never be managed electronically to conform within a half percent confidence for a 100,000 mile industry standard warranty.

    So, the answer to “Who killed the electric car?” is;

    Limitation of the physical chemistry, and nothing more.

    GM likely had the benefit of a suggestion of the existence of a super superior solid electrolyte years ago, (at the start of someone’s 1,500 charge/discharge testing of it) and, at least in part, allowed this discovery to be incorporated into decision making overall.

    Do you think this could be the case?

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    Kdawg

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (8:52 am)

    Ziv: The EV-1’s were recalled in 2003 and the Volt program began in 2007. The knowledge they gained from the EV-1 is why the Volt is such a solid car.

    And I find it odd that so many are still angry with GM, when they were one of the few who actually did have an EV program in the 90’s. Where were all the other automakers when GM was working on the EV1? So GM takes a 4 year hiatus, comes back with the much improved Volt EV, follows up with a Gen2 Volt, a Spark EV, an ELR, and a Bolt EV, but somehow they are the bad guys?

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  12. 12
    Neromanceres

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (9:05 am)

    EV1 was a little ahead of it’s time. Blaming GM for that is silly. Yes GM handled the situation poorly but considering that just a few short years later the Volt program was born. (note the Volt concept was shown in January 2007 but the program launched more than a year before that). Bob Lutz and Jon Lauckner discussed doing an EREV in 2005 to “leapfrog the Prius”.

    Also Elon Musk didn’t start Tesla. Tesla was started by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning. Elon didn’t get involved in Tesla until about a year later in 2004 and didn’t become CEO until late 2008.

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  13. 13
    George S. Bower

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (9:20 am)

    I remember watching all the news about the EV1 and I was fascinated. Even though in those days I knew nothing about climate change. I thought it was a super challenging problem statement.

    ….and as usual GM’s engineering team did an incredible job of solving the problem.

    ……….and GM management did what they always do

    …………………squash the product (quite literally)

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  14. 14
    Loboc

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (9:20 am)

    This is a typical Musk ploy to misdirect investors and M3 reservation holders. Expect the July 2017 start of M3 production to stretch to July 2018. I wouldn’t expect any sort of volume production until Spring of 2018. Maybe someone will write a new song ala ‘Summer of ’69’.

    My limited understanding of ‘shorting’ is as an off-set to exuberance with any particular stock. So far though, short players are getting their arse kicked. Tesla stock is more a cult than a realistic play. The company has only made a limited profit on paper only. Right now they have more debt than anything.

    All car companies are diversifying as Musk struggles. The writing is on the wall. TAAS is the new paradigm whether ICE, EV, or whatever.

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  15. 15
    joe

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (9:41 am)

    MnVikes,

    Elon Musk basically runs a cult. He spews BS and his followers eats it all up. I find it funny when Wall Street compares Tesla to the big boys. Tesla has one assembly plant whereas the big boys have plants all over the world and builds more cars in one day then Tesla does in one year. I see this company failing like Tucker did.

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  16. 16
    George S. Bower

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (9:51 am)

    BAZINGA:
    I’m not smart enough to understand “shorts”,

    The only thing you need to know is that there is no ceiling on how much you can lose. If you buy a stock long the most you lose is the original amount.

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  17. 17
    Nelson

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (9:53 am)

    Kdawg: So GM takes a 4 year hiatus, comes back with the much improved Volt EV, follows up with a Gen2 Volt, a Spark EV, an ELR, and a Bolt EV, but somehow they are the bad guys?

    Though GM has the largest stable of plug-ins on the market (Volt, BoltEV, CT6) 3 out of about 30 does not show commitment in my book.

    In addition to its current plug-in stable if GM had a plug-in SUV and a plug-in pickup truck as well as a plug-in Buick, I think it would go a long way to proving its commitment to automotive electrification.

    NPNS! SBF!
    Volt#671

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  18. 18
    American First

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (10:02 am)

    Neromanceres:
    EV1 was a little ahead of it’s time. Blaming GM for that is silly. Yes GM handled the situation poorly but considering that just a few short years later the Volt program was born.(note the Volt concept was shown in January 2007 but the program launched more than a year before that).Bob Lutz and Jon Lauckner discussed doing an EREV in 2005 to “leapfrog the Prius”.

    Also Elon Musk didn’t start Tesla. Tesla was started by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning. Elon didn’t get involved in Tesla until about a year later in 2004 and didn’t become CEO until late 2008.

    Tesla Motors didn’t start from “scratch” either. They used Lotus bodies and other “off-the-shelf” parts (especially the Panasonic cells) to produce the Roadster. GM has only built one EV using an existing body: the Chevy Spark EV. I see it as a “test bed” or a “mule” for the Chevy Bolt EV.

    Ford did use an existing gas body for its first BEV, the Focus Electric, and reused gas bodies for the Escape, Fusion, C-Max, and Lincoln MKZ hybrids, So in the U.S. GM was the first to design a unique body for its EV1, and later for the Chevy Volt. Elon Musk copied GM ideas.

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  19. 19
    American First

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (10:06 am)

    Nelson: Though GM has the largest stable of plug-ins on the market (Volt, BoltEV, CT6) 3 out of about 30 does not show commitment in my book.

    NPNS! SBF!
    Volt#671

    3 out of 30 what?

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  20. 20
    Qinsp

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (10:09 am)

    Elon is being dishonest. He wasn’t with Tesla in 2003. And he’s wrong about the EV1 program.
    Only 42 people were willing to extend their leases at the end of the EV1 program. Many turned the cars in early. There were un-sold cars sitting on lots, and GM dropped the prices at the end.
    The car was a product of the Advanced Propulsion division and was a controlled test study about the acceptance of EV cars. A previous GM study indicated 80% of people would consider an EV as an option. The truth was much less.

    Elon either knows this, or has people who tell him. But instead he regurgitates a common urban myth about the EV1. It was rated as one of the 50 Worst Cars Of All Time by Time? Magazine.

    But in some ways the EV1 is still more sophisticated than the 2017 Teslas.

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  21. 21
    Bacardi

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (10:56 am)

    One often overlooked tidbit of info, GM sold the S10 EV at the same time as the EV1…It even had a heat pump! According to this story about 60 were sold and the rest leased and crushed…Overall just under 500 were built…

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  22. 22
    George S. Bower

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (11:05 am)

    bro1999: Honestly, I think Elon just has sour that GM, the “murderer of EVs” beat Tesla at its game in getting out an affordable, 200+ mile BEV to the market. Page literally taken right out of Elon’s master plan.

    The sad part is that GM could have run away with the M3 market. They have an excellent power train. All they needed to do was package it in a desirable body. Instead they put it in a teeny little compact knowing full well that US consumers don’t like small cars.

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  23. 23
    American First

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (11:16 am)

    George S. Bower: The sad part is that GM could have run away with the M3 market. They have an excellent power train. All they needed to do was package it in a desirable body. Instead they put it in a teeny little compact knowing full well that US consumers don’t like small cars.

    I believe you are mistaken about “small cars”. If your statement were true, Toyota and Mitsubishi wouldn’t be the top sellers in that market at all. And GM wouldn’t have the Chevy Cruze as its third best selling vehicle, after the Silverado and Equinox. BTW, isn’t the Chevy Volt a “small car” for most “US consumers”?

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  24. 24
    George S. Bower

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (11:35 am)

    American First: I believe you are mistaken about “small cars”.

    YTD total small car sales—————–1.12 million off 8.5%

    YTD light duty trucks………………………4.3 million up 4.7%

    YTD total SUV/crossover………………….2.8 million up 7.3%

    http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

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  25. 25
    JeffNY

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (11:39 am)

    I am so sick of this condescending “EV arrogance” by some people who challenge the commitment and motive of others….while demanding they lose even more money. Nobody even did a car like the EV1 until GM did. Even today ZERO car companies make money on EV’s. We all want that to change, and because of GM, Nissan and Tesla it now is. But this is really rich coming from Elon, who’s car company hasn’t turned an annual profit in over 12 years and who lives off Wall Street to keep the company going. Elon should also be THANKING GM too for the building he got an amazing deal on – the building every Tesla is built in (the same plant that was later operated by GM and Toyota). Every other car company has to fund their EV programs out of current EARNINGS, and not just by telling Wall Street a good story. When will we see ALL the car companies fully committed to EV’s? Simple; when they can make money on them. Really sick of this GM (and only GM) bashing (a lot/most car companies did far less or NOTHING on EV’s the past 20 years), hey, you can blame GM for a lot going back through history….not doing enough on EV’s is not one of them. The past two months GM actually sold more cars in the U.S. with plugs than Elon did (….maybe that’s why he is so nervous?). Hey Elon, when Tesla actually turns a profit and sells a car that most people can afford, call me. But this last twitter rant really has me re-thinking I might own a Tesla in a couple years. Right now I think the odds of that just dropped dramatically.

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  26. 26
    Nelson

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (11:52 am)

    American First: 3 out of 30 what?

    “3 out of about 30 Vehicles.” What did you think I was referring to.

    Buick Cascada
    Buick Enclave
    Buick Encore
    Buick Envision
    Buick LaCrosse
    Buick Regal
    Buick Verano
    Cadillac ATS Coupe
    Cadillac ATS Sedan
    Cadillac CT6 Sedan
    Cadillac CTS Sedan
    Cadillac Escalade
    Cadillac XT5
    Cadillac XTS Sedan
    Chevrolet Bolt EV
    Chevrolet Camaro
    Chevrolet City Express (VAN)
    Chevrolet Colorado
    Chevrolet Corvette Stingray
    Chevrolet Cruze Hatchback
    Chevrolet Cruze Sedan
    Chevrolet Equinox
    Chevrolet Impala
    Chevrolet Malibu
    Chevrolet Silverado
    Chevrolet Sonic Hatchback
    Chevrolet Sonic Sedan
    Chevrolet Spark
    Chevrolet Suburban
    Chevrolet Tahoe
    Chevrolet Traverse
    Chevrolet Trax
    Chevrolet Volt
    GMC Acadia
    GMC Terrain
    GMC Yukon
    GMC Yukon XL

    NPNS! SBF!
    Volt#671

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  27. 27
    larry4pyro

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (11:55 am)

    The decision to kill the EV1 made sense because CARB dropped their mandate for zero emission cars and GM was spending a lot more to build the EV1 than any lease could cover. It should also be mentioned that the other major automakers discontinued selling EVs for the same reason but these cars didn’t make the news because they were not nearly as advanced as the EV1.

    Here’s a link to a very interesting piece on the history of the EV1, unfortunately it is only one part and I couldn’t find the rest but what is there is very informing.

    http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/electriccar.htm

    As for Elon Musk, I think he should really blame CARB for the early interest and demise of EVs in general and the EV1 in particular. But on the other hand, many kudos to Elon and Martin Eberhard for having the courage to make and sell electric cars when everyone thought it impossible. Tesla has changed the automotive industry for the good.

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  28. 28
    realdb2

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (11:56 am)

    I can see both sides of this argument. On one side I want to praise GM for even building the EV-1, turning around and building the Volt (the best car I’ve ever owned) and then building the first affordable long range EV (the Bolt EV).

    On the other hand I can’t help but agree with others who question GM’s ultimate commitment to electrification. Do they and their dealers REALLY want to sell EVs? Or do they simply want to be in a good position when the market as a whole shifts to EVs in large numbers?

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    jbakerjonathan

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (12:21 pm)

    realdb2: Or do they simply want to be in a good position when the market as a whole shifts to EVs in large numbers?

    IMO, there’s your answer, just remover the question mark.

    I’ve said it before, GM is acting the part of a good fiduciary in generating current profits on ICE vehicles, particularly trucks, while positioning itself to be at the forefront with EV products in anticipation of the market awakening to a desire for EVs. Elon is taking the big risk in trying to awaken the market’s desire for EVs. When the market awakens, GM will be pushing forward, already prepared. (President Trump pushing aside the prime minister of Montenegro to stand in front of the group comes to mind 8^)

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    JeffNY

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (12:23 pm)

    Nelson,

    …..yes, and right now the sale of 27 of them are funding the sale of the other 3 and future EV development. Thanks GM for all you have done, and are doing, do make EV’s affordable and mainstream for the masses.

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  31. 31
    Tall Pete

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (12:41 pm)

    joe:
    MnVikes,

    Elon Musk basically runs a cult. He spews BS and his followers eats it all up. I find it funny whenWall Street compares Tesla to the big boys. Tesla has one assembly plant whereas the big boys have plants all over the world and builds more cars in one day then Tesla does in one year. I see this company failing like Tucker did.

    Tucker didn’t make it that far (± 50 cars assembled) and got killed almost instantly. Even if Tesla doesn’t have an outstanding volume yet, they are getting there quite fast and are improving manufacturing even faster.

    At this point, even if they go into bankruptcy, another manufacturer will buy them and keep the name and tech and will continue to produce Tesla cars.

    To me, that’s success already. Add that they decided GM to get back in the EV game and their role in electrifying transportation is huge.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (12:41 pm)

    jbakerjonathan: …anticipation of the market awakening to a desire for EVs…

    Sorry to disappoint, but when gasoline hits $1 a gallon, what GM dealership is going to push EVs?

    Elon deserves to rant. He sees the ICE industry continuing to manufacture a majority of their vehicles that increase global warming while Tesla slaves away to reduce global warming.

    If it wasn’t for California’s CARB and the Clean Air Act, there wouldn’t be any EVs at all. How soon we forget who forced the auto industry to manufacture the ZEV.

    Quote: “The California Air Resources Board (“CARB”), under pressure from the federal Environmental Protection Agency (“EPA”), was trying to reduce car emissions “by 10%” with a deadline of 2003. The Zero Emission Vehicle (“ZEV”) provided one easy, bureaucratic method for doing so: CARB simply “mandated” that “10%” of all cars sold by 2003 must be ZEV!”

    http://www.ev1.org

    Quote: “…(CARB) subsequently passed a mandate that made the production and sale of zero-emissions vehicles (ZEV) a requirement for the seven major automakers selling cars in the United States to continue to market their vehicles in California.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

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    Voltowner

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (12:43 pm)

    Ziv:
    Never let the truth get in the way of a meme.
    “… against the will of their owners”Uh, Musk, not one person ever owned an EV-1. They were leased because knew how much of a risk they were taking. What they didn’t realize was just how far the nut jobs would go with the polemic when the brass hats at decided to minimize the risk of long term liability and costs by crushing the EV-1 fleet.
    GM was stupid but they weren’t evil. The EV-1’s were recalled in 2003 and the Volt program began in 2007. The knowledge they gained from the EV-1 is why the Volt is such a solid car.

    Whoa!

    Ziv gets +17 for his post calling those who leased an EV-1 “nut jobs”?!

    I think the uproar GM caused was justified. GM didn’t crush the cars because they were a liability – EV-1s were solid and reliable.

    We can’t rewrite history. GM built these cars just as Honda built their (also crushed) electric car – to satisfy California’s legislation over zero emissions vehicles.

    Wish I could see a comparison of how much GM spent on legal fees and lobbyists fighting those California laws so that they didn’t have to build the EV-1 or ANY electric car. You can’t just cast a blind eye to what GM management does. Just like you can’t ignore that Mary Barra digs Tesla when she introduces Bolt EV at 2016 CES by saying “some electric car manufacturers won’t service the car in the state you live in” ! Of course, Mary – your company is funding unfounded legal fights in several states by auto dealer associations against Tesla (this has been verified*)!

    *https://electrek.co/2016/05/01/tesla-gm-direct-sales-connecticut/

    Defend those efforts of blockading a tiny car company in comparison to your behemoth one. How is direct selling of your product a conflict of existing laws when there are zero private franchises of/for that company anywhere?

    I stand with George and others on this site who laud GM engineers for inventing and developing fantastic electric and electrified vehicles (industry leading) for GM. GM as a corporation deserves any and all outcries for not advertising and producing Volt and Bolt EV as if it were a normal model in their lineup.

    It is what it is.

    Nobody has to come to the defense of GM.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (1:15 pm)

    To that point GM wore lots of scar tissue from past liabilities. Obviously obliterating the entire line eliminates further potential liability. Now whether that was a priority issue no one knows except those in the board room at that time. As noted in these posts, GM jumped in with both feet first. And that’s commendable. One other point. EV1 became the text book model (literally) for EV design. Without a whit of doubt his engineering in the Roadster era read EV1’s modeling words off the page.

    Insofar as Elon’s tweet storm…he’s throwing rocks from a glass house. New GM’s made more money than TESLA will earn in the next few years maybe the next decade.

    Elon did good resigning from Trump’s commission in protest to the Paris Accord withdrawal. So now why he’s kicking GM makes zero sense. Note to Mary B.–ignore Elon and while electrifying work on getting Caddy (and maybe a new ELR) back to its roots.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (1:16 pm)

    George S. Bower: The sad part is that GM could have run away with the M3 market. They have an excellent power train. All they needed to do was package it in a desirable body. Instead they put it in a teeny little compact knowing full well that US consumers don’t like small cars.

    But the Model 3 is going to be smaller than the Bolt EV?

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (1:18 pm)

    Voltowner: Ziv gets +17 for his post calling those who leased an EV-1 “nut jobs”?!

    I believe there were some nut jobs, such as Chelsea, that placed their bodies and signs in front of trucks shipping EV1s off to their demise.

    The reality is that GM had to remove these cars from the market as liabilities. Can you imagine having to carry parts for 15 years for a hand-full of hand-built cars? (Well, 1117. A little under half of ELRs.)

    The nut jobs went on to form EV enthusiast groups that promoted EVs in their own web-eriffic way. Not really a bad thing.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (1:26 pm)

    Voltowner: “some electric car manufacturers won’t service the car in the state you live in”

    What’s stopping Elon from installing service centers everywhere? You can buy a car online anywhere in the US, but I would have to drive 3 hours to get my Tesla serviced.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (1:44 pm)

    Kdawg: But the Model 3 is going to be smaller than the Bolt EV?

    Tesla Model 3 Wheelbase: 113″

    Chevy Bolt EV Wheelbase: 102.4″

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (1:46 pm)

    Kdawg: What’s stopping Elon from installing service centers everywhere?You can buy a car online anywhere in the US, but I would have to drive 3 hours to get my Tesla serviced.

    What’s stopping GM from ceasing the funding of unconstitutional lawsuits by state dealer
    associations?

    Just checked the map. Tesla has service centers in states
    where it is banned from selling their cars. Texas, for example, has 4 service centers.

    Call on your governor, Rick Snyder to grow a backbone. Michigan is the center of the U.S. auto giants – and the strongest fortress against Tesla’s direct sales model. A quote from this Detroit Free Press article on the subject: “Earlier Tuesday, General Motors urged the governor to sign the bill” – Detroit Free Press http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2014/10/17/michigan-verge-banning-tesla-stores/17386251/

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (1:47 pm)

    Mark Z: when gasoline hits $1 a gallon

    Just when (and how) will this be?

    Petroleum is a finite resource, and world demand is rising. We’re at a temporary lull in a prevailing upward trend. Let disruption occur due to natural or man-made catastrophe, and watch it hit a temporary peak overnight; as it did after Katrina. The average baseline will go in only one direction.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (1:56 pm)

    Mark Z: when gasoline hits $1 a gallon

    Gasoline has never been $1/gallon in today’s dollars. It hovers around $2.50/gal historically.

    Electricity, on the other hand, can go below $0/kWh. See Germany.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (1:59 pm)

    Voltowner: Tesla Model 3 Wheelbase: 113″

    Bolt EV Wheelbase: 102.4″

    How about by usable interior volume?

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (2:07 pm)

    Loboc: I believe there were some nut jobs, such as Chelsea, that placed their bodies and signs in front of trucks shipping EV1s off to their demise.

    The reality is that GM had to remove these cars from the market as liabilities. Can you imagine having to carry parts for 10 years for a hand-full of hand-built cars?

    The nut jobs went on to form EV enthusiast groups that promoted EVs in their own web-eriffic way. Not really a bad thing.

    Count me in as a “nut job” then! 🙂

    – Chelsea Sexton is terrific, BTW

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (2:16 pm)

    Jackson: How about by usable interior volume?

    Bolt EV: Seats 5 with adequate headroom front and rear.

    Model 3: Seats 5 with adequate headroom front and rear.

    This leaves the argument of a hatch. Bolt EV, a fine car indeed,
    has a small area in back, but equal to cars in that size category,
    like Honda Fit and Nissan Versa. Fold the seats down and the
    hatch becomes much handier as you can load relatively tall
    items back there. Honda Fit gets kudos for it’s magic seat that
    flips and folds, allowing things like bikes to fit behind the front
    seats while storing cargo in the rear – very innovative.

    Model 3 being a sedan has sedan advantages, aerodynamics
    and appearance being two major ones. As you know, Musk says
    you can put a surfboard in the 3, but tall items won’t fit in the
    trunk. This type of utility will come from the Model Y crossover.

    Rear wheel drive = enthusiast handling, no understeer related to all front-drive cars. Front-drive was invented with cost in mind, not performance, but there is an advantage on snow for those in northern climes. The Tesla with all-wheel-drive will come later, but at added expense. No all-wheel option is forecast for the Bolt EV.

    A rear wheel drive electric compact luxury sedan with midsize interior
    volume vs. a front wheel drive electric subcompact wagon ( GM calls a crossover )
    seems a stretch to compare side-by-side, don’t you think? If just
    a comparison my interior cubic feet, they still compare favorably.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (2:27 pm)

    Jackson: Just when (and how) will this be?

    IMHO, sometime during the next seven years in states with lower taxes (i.e.: Oklahoma).

    Assuming 8 years for POTUS and California regulations (or Governor actions) increasing ZEV manufacturing that lowers the demand for gasoline.

    Prices did hit low prices in 2015. It could happen again:

    http://abcnews.go.com/Business/find-cheapest-gas-country/story?id=28187509

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (2:33 pm)

    I can see nothing more hilarious than news media covering protesters at GM dealers
    picketing in front because they want a Bolt EV or Volt but there are none in stock and
    none ordered.

    How could this happen? Well, if Tesla succeeds in selling 500,000 Model 3s at an
    average price of $45,000, and scores of people see them on the road but want
    a more economical EV at around $30,000…. Plus, they demand a little wagon
    form factor over a sedan…

    Hey, it could happen!

    Surely I jest, but in all truth, the big car companies will be forced into making
    mainstream EVs through consumer demand and challenges from Tesla.

    Mark may be fantasizing about $1/gal gas, but I can see a direct attack by Big Oil
    to kill electric cars should we get to the point where consumers are demanding them.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (2:46 pm)

    Voltowner: Tesla Model 3 Wheelbase: 113″

    Chevy Bolt EV Wheelbase: 102.4″

    And the WB on my Gen II 2017 GMC Acadia is 112.5″ and it’s a mini LIMO for me and my family

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (2:51 pm)

    Nelson: Though GM has the largest stable of plug-ins on the market (Volt, BoltEV, CT6) 3 out of about 30 does not show commitment in my book.

    In addition to its current plug-in stable if GM had a plug-in SUV and a plug-in pickup truck as well as a plug-in Buick, I think it would go a long way to proving its commitment to automotive electrification.

    NPNS! SBF!
    Volt#671

    Big +1

    Plus – if they made a commitment to sell more than 20-30,000 units/yr.

    Plus – if they distributed the cars in the same manner as they do their IC models.

    Plus – If they ceased fighting Tesla in courts all over the nation and supporting
    auto dealer associations that are so far inside state legislature’s bank accounts
    as to not ever see the light of day. “CONSUMER PROTECTION” my sweet ass.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (3:00 pm)

    Kdawg: And I find it odd that so many are still angry with GM, when they were one of the few who actually did have an EV program in the 90’s.Where were all the other automakers when GM was working on the EV1?So GM takes a 4 year hiatus, comes back with the much improved Volt EV, follows up with a Gen2 Volt, a Spark EV, an ELR, and a Bolt EV, but somehow they are the bad guys?

    Yes, they are bad guys when they show they can make a better car but hold it back from
    you and me – the consumer.

    What part of playing ZEV games is good? Slow rollouts – emphasis on California? Do you
    seriously feel GM the company wants electric cars to compete with it’s IC cars?! You are
    talking incredible losses to their parts and service business. This means losses of
    billions plus if EVs took off in the marketplace, they’d be forced to build battery plants
    at $billions apiece!

    You honestly think GM wants this? Actions are louder than words. No MPV5, no electrified
    vehicle that directly competes with one of their IC models. You think this is all by
    chance?

    George has stated it so eloquently. GM engineers are the best. I stand with you in
    defending them. Just look at Voltec and the Bolt EV, they are outstanding machines.
    Then look at what the corporate heads of GM do with those wonderful achievements.
    They play ZEV games, petition government to stifle EV sales and work overtime at
    defeating the EPA and C.A.R.B..

    Don’t you get it?

    GM had to build the cars you mentioned. They felt FORCED to. You would have a
    solid point if you stated – “GM has proven it has the engineering smarts and dedicated
    staff to invent and build the best EVs produced so far”. Now if they would just make
    Volt with a big back seat, a crossover and then send them to market in 50 states in
    September along with all the rest of their models…..You could defend them and
    make some sense.

    GM defenders here as it is – make no sense.

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    American First

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (3:06 pm)

    Voltowner: Tesla Model 3 Wheelbase: 113″

    Chevy Bolt EV Wheelbase: 102.4″

    I don’t measure cars by their wheelbase, since I have driven very long cars (over 18 feet long) that had medium sized interiors. The correct indication is passenger (cabin) volume. Not the wheelbase, body length, or cargo volume. The 2017 Chevy Bolt EV interior space is equal or slightly larger than the TM Model S, and will be much larger than the Model 3.

    Edit: I agree with Jackson in his post #42.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (3:09 pm)

    Bro 1999 is a stand up guy, a real EV advocate and a gentleman.

    But he defends GM even after he had to order his Bolt EV from California and put it on a truck to be shipped back East to his home! You don’t get a deal on a car you have to special order. You don’t get a break on the shipping cost.

    He defends GM because he likes the great 238 mile AER electric car it’s engineer’s built. He
    doesn’t look at the fact GM is fighting the “REVENGE OF THE ELECTRIC CAR” tooth and nail.
    State by state, courtroom by courtroom – GM is fighting the onset of the electric car. They made
    a darn nice one – but they lose money on each one. They don’t want to make them. They show
    us this by making 20-23,000 of them = not advertising them, and then ultimately showing
    sales results that prove that “AMERICAN CONSUMERS DON’T WANT THEM”.

    This is wrong.

    Tesla has 470,000+ preorders that stick that message in the eye. We, the American
    consumer DO WANT THEM!

    GM sits at president Trump’s side – daily reminding him to dump the EPA and ditch the mandates that literally make them and others build electrified cars.

    Despite what others here say, Tesla will prevail and GM, Ford and Fiat will have to build large
    battery factories and team with LG Chem, Panasonic and Samsung to enter the fray.

    Badmouth Tesla all you want – but GM is NOT heralding in the era of the electric car.

    They proved they can built them. That’s about it.

    In fact, GM is crazy. Building the very cars they want to destroy. Whodathunkit?

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (3:15 pm)

    Voltowner: Tesla Model 3 Wheelbase: 113″
    Chevy Bolt EV Wheelbase: 102.4″

    Don’t go by wheelbase. The Bolt EV is a TARDIS. It has the same interior volume as a Model S. The Model 3 is smaller than the Model S.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (3:19 pm)

    Voltowner: unconstitutional lawsuits

    What’s “unconstitutional”?

    Voltowner: Just checked the map. Tesla has service centers in states
    where it is banned from selling their cars.

    Good for them, but not enough, and not in my state. That is the point Mary was making. Meanwhile I have 3 Chevy dealers less than 10 miles from me.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (3:21 pm)

    Pointing out GM, Toyota, Audi, VW, Jaguar, BMW’s strategies is so hard when people have
    closed minds.

    On other EV websites, you see people all excited that Jaguar or Audi is building a 2 row
    crossover with 300 miles range and selling for $60,000-$90,000 due out in 2020.

    2 rows. $big.

    So what?!

    Even funnier is that these articles call these cars “TESLA KILLERS”!!! Now that is funny.

    Model X is out now. You can buy one. It has 3 rows.

    You see, Bolt EV doesn’t directly compete with any other IC car on the market. Neither
    does Volt. Those 2 row “TESLA KILLERS” are the same. Ingeniously positioned NOT
    to compete with the 2 row crossovers that companies sells like hotcakes for $50,000.
    Neither do they compete with their 3 row offerings.

    No legacy gas car company wants to build an EV that directly competes with anything
    they already make. If some upstart disrespects the fraternity of GAS and actually
    makes an electric car that directly competes with other’s gas models, they wouldn’t
    be invited to the country club!

    Gas car companies have a good thing going. Why would they, by volition, build
    $billion battery factories if they don’t have to? Why would they volunteer to build
    unprofitable electrics when they cash in on the car consumer so successfully by selling
    them old-fashioned tech which also benefits them in service and parts dollars so well?

    The whole industry will have to change. Be forced into change. By Tesla.

    Yet you knock Tesla and defend the status quo – in this case, GM.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (3:30 pm)

    American First: I believe you are mistaken about “small cars”. If your statement were true, Toyota and Mitsubishi wouldn’t be the top sellers in that market at all.And GM wouldn’t have the Cruze as its third best selling vehicle, after the Silverado and Equinox. BTW, isn’t the Chevy Volt a “small car” for most “US consumers”?

    What you say is true, A.F., but what George S. B. said is also correct. In America, larger vehicles are ascendant, small sedans and coupes are steadily getting the cold shoulder from families looking for utility in their personal transport. As many others have previously said, GM should prioritize putting Voltec, and now Bolt EV, powertrains in crossovers, pickups and, as they are doing with Caddy CT-6 PHEV, larger sedans. I prefer smaller cars, but I’m far from representative of the American buying public in everything from eating habits to car-buying decisions.

    Please forgive if this entry comes out looking odd. It is my first time trying to use the quote function.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (3:32 pm)

    Kdawg: What’s “unconstitutional”?

    Good for them, but not enough, and not in my state.That is the point Mary was making.Meanwhile I have 3 Chevy dealers less than 10 miles from me.

    Many articles a Google away re: GM funding and support of state auto dealer’s fights
    against Tesla.

    It’s unconstitutional to block the free choice of a business as to how to sell it’s wares.
    Forcing a company into a franchising scheme just to be able to sell in a state is wrong.
    And it’s unconstitutional.

    Just reading a defense in Automotive News of GM’s fight against Tesla in courts. Turns
    out she was called upon in Michigan to testify on behalf of the auto dealers as an
    “expert”. Gee – her writing is unbiased!!!! And in her article, she cites consumer
    protection. As in trade-ins. I’ve known folks who’ve traded in their used cars of
    different makes for a Tesla. Tesla has mechanisms and relationships for this – so
    indeed this defender of GM and dealer associations is wrong.

    Anyone ever in this world who has feared the camel trade of the 20th century
    franchise car consumer fiasco knows it’s wrong to blockade a new car company that
    wants to sell it’s product in a new way – especially when there are no conflicts of
    interest.

    How is there a conflict of interest when Tesla has no franchises to conflict with?
    Who are they conflicting with?

    Scan all the different angles attorneys have taken against Tesla. Not all states
    attack Tesla the same way. One cites conflict of interest, the next, “consumer
    protection”. PROTECTION FROM WHAT – From sly salespeople using your trade in
    value AGAINST YOU in the purchase?!” I sold cars. It is trained into you to do this.
    From all the traps, ploys, tricks and scams played on you by car dealers? They are
    LEGEND.

    So you support attempts to ban me from walking into a Tesla store and hearing
    price and getting a test drive?!!!

    Give me one reason you and GM are right?

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (3:42 pm)

    Kdawg:

    Good for them, but not enough, and not in my state.That is the point Mary was making.Meanwhile I have 3 Chevy dealers less than 10 miles from me.

    So sorry you live in Michigan.

    You make it sound like it’s Tesla’s fault you cannot service a Tesla should you buy one –
    in your own state.

    Be angry at Michigan.

    Look for the legislators in your state on the take from car dealer associations like N.A.D.A.. Vote for a candidate who isn’t. Use social media. There are things we can do. In fact – buy a Tesla anyway and screw the Chevy dealer down the street. Make a statement.

    You say-“Hey, it’s handy for me!”. I think GM has you where they want you.

    It’s a fair argument that you- buying a Bolt EV – would be supporting GM’s fight against
    electric cars by buying one from them.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (3:47 pm)

    Voltowner: You make it sound like it’s Tesla’s fault you cannot service a Tesla should you buy one –
    in your own state.

    It is Tesla’s fault if they don’t build a service center.

    Is this James under the name “Voltowner”?

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (3:54 pm)

    Kdawg: Don’t go by wheelbase.The Bolt EV is a TARDIS.It has the same interior volume as a Model S.The Model 3 is smaller than the Model S.

    I think you are a customer for a Bolt EV. Not everybody wants a rear drive performance
    sedan. If utility is priority for you the Bolt EV may be a better choice.

    I look at a purchase of a Fusion Hybrid, Golf EV or even a Bolt as an endorsement of
    the ludicrous actions of a car giant run amok. Not that the car isn’t good. It’s
    overpriced. GM could build them in quanities of over 100.000 per year and send that
    savings to you. With economies of scale, GM could sell the car in all 50 states and
    around the world – even make a right hand drive version, and make a profit. That
    would mean a $25,000 Bolt EV, not a $45,000 Premiere before tax break.

    If GM made electrics in volume and advertised them against competitors like
    Prius Prime and all hybrids – they could sell every one they could make. But
    that is against their current business plan.

    So when you do buy your Bolt EV out of convenience and because it’s a compact
    wagon that suits your utility needs – don’t slight Tesla and side with GM. You are,
    in fact, slowing the revolution of the electric car by just a tad every time you
    buy from the gas guys. You are supporting their strategies of limiting electric
    sales to a dribble not a flood.

    Not that you are a bad person – and not that you aren’t buying a great little 238 mile machine. But you are contributing to GM’s law machine fighting electrification and the EPA. You are supporting that lobbyist and that GM exec that is visiting with Trump this very day to stifle the EPA and California. You are helping to fund GM’s fight to kill Tesla in court.

    You may choose a different outlook. You may say to yourself:,
    “I am using my consumer power and showing GM we want electric cars – that’s why I’m paying $40,000 for a subcompact electric car with a plastic interior”. In fact, what you are doing is supporting their fight against mainstream electric cars. I have given you all the proof, and you can easily support my case by reading what GM is doing at the White House and in courts around the nation as we speak.

    The Bolt EV is a fine car. The status quo dealer franchise arrangement is a dinosaur that hurts not helps consumers.

    The Bolt EV is a subcompact wagon that should sell for $30,000
    BEFORE TAX BREAK. If built in mass numbers and marketed JUST LIKE GAS SUBCOMPACTS are, it should sell in the 100,000s. This would mean GM would profit from each one sold.

    I don’t like the games GM plays. You shouldn’t either. Justifying
    it by convenience is just adding to the problem.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:09 pm)

    Kdawg: It is Tesla’s fault if they don’t build a service center.

    Is this James under the name “Voltowner”?

    What if this was James’ wife?

    Got a problem with that?

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:19 pm)

    Kdawg: Is this James under the name “Voltowner”?

    Hey, “Voltowner,” don’t use carriage returns after each line. It’s a dead giveaway. 😛

    Why do you want to post under another name, James?

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:21 pm)

    I don’t understand Musk’s tweets and I don’t understand why anyone cares. GM is going to do what it thinks makes the most sense for its shareholders, customers, and employees. At the moment this means manufacturing some EVs because of government regulation and building the Bolt EV as a means to offer an autonomous vehicle. Tesla is doing what is best for its shareholders, customers, and employees. Since it doesn’t make anything but electric cars, at the moment this means claiming the moral high ground and cloaking itself in the mantle of EV evangelism.

    I understand that people think they’re helping the cause by supporting Tesla, and they are, but as a practical matter they would do more by writing a check to the Democrats, who are, after all, responsible for all these EVs. We would have EVs without Musk. We would not have EVs without CARB.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:24 pm)

    Voltowner: It’s
    overpriced. GM could build them in quanities of over 100.000 per year and send that
    savings to you. With economies of scale, GM could sell the car in all 50 states and
    around the world – even make a right hand drive version, and make a profit. That
    would mean a $25,000 Bolt EV, not a $45,000 Premiere before tax break.

    This would simply be wrong. We’ve had several cost breakdowns and GM isn’t making any money on the Bolt EV and wouldn’t even at a volume of 100K/year. The price is more than fair.

    Voltowner: But you are contributing to GM’s law machine fighting electrification and the EPA. You are supporting that lobbyist and that GM exec that is visiting with Trump this very day to stifle the EPA and California. You are helping to fund GM’s fight to kill Tesla in court.

    All valid points. Mary Berra seems to think she can eat her cake and have it too, but I don’t think this works in the internet age.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:32 pm)

    I cut and paste her comments from Google Docs.

    She wanted it under her own voice. Share your gripes with her…But I wouldn’t advise it. I often fall into that trap —- I never win! 🙂

    I should point out that my wife is a major EV advocate. She doesn’t believe the Volt went far enough,
    as in being pure BEV. She and I disagree on this point, as I consider Volt THE solution for most of us
    in that there is no need for charging station infrastructure buildout, charging station problems of all
    sorts.

    I do agree with her points 100% though and back them up
    completely. This has been the topic of
    many a dinner time discussion for many years.

    She and I watched the documentary “Who Killed The Electric Car”
    together and we both became EV converts immediately after. I’d say she may be even more passionate about BIG AUTO’s complicit activities to kill EVs than I am.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:33 pm)

    Learn about the latest version of AP2 with this link to 11:33 in the short video:

    https://vimeo.com/221199071#t=11m33s

    https://teslamotorsclub.com/blog/2017/06/12/see-the-smooth-as-silk-autopilot-update-in-action/

    How long before this issue is solved? Maybe Tesla will request a police escort for their cross country autonomous drive later this year. 🙂

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:38 pm)

    Kdawg: But the Model 3 is going to be smaller than the ?

    Jackson: How about by usable interior volume?

    Not his discussion again.

    Not only is the M3 a larger wheelbase it’s a good looking car. It’s desirable. 300,000 people put down a rez. GM can’t even sell 2000 BoltEV’s a month.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:42 pm)

    DonC: This would simply be wrong. We’ve had several cost breakdowns and GM isn’t making any money on the Bolt EV and wouldn’t even at a volume of 100K/year.The price is more than fair.

    All valid points. Mary Berra seems to think she can eat her cake and have it too, but I don’t think this works in the internet age.

    I think what my wife means is that ( same thing I’ve said forever ) the Bolt EV or Volt’s
    price seems fair to you.

    You are a person who endorses the engineering, the cause of electrification, etc. – otherwise
    known as an early adopter. To you, the price seems reasonable – all things considered, like
    the price of batteries.

    What she and I mean is the price to the average consumer. What they see is a subcompact
    Versa with electric motor and batteries that costs twice as much as that Nissan Versa.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:42 pm)

    Dave Riley: Please forgive if this entry comes out looking odd. It is my first time trying to use the quote function.

    That’s OK we need new blood:)

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:44 pm)

    Jackson: Hey, “Voltowner,” don’t use carriage returns after each line.It’s a dead giveaway.

    Why do you want to post under another name, James?

    See #60 and #64

    Kdawg: It is Tesla’s fault if they don’t build a service center.

    Is this James under the name “Voltowner”?

    I’m plus one’ing all her comments as we speak – and I suggest you do the same, if you know what’s good for you!

    L 🙂 L!

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:46 pm)

    Voltowner:

    Give me one reason you and GM are right?

    He’s not right he just likes to argue….and he’s quite good at it. Like William F. Buckley:)

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:54 pm)

    DonC: This would simply be wrong. We’ve had several cost breakdowns and GM isn’t making any money on the Bolt EV and wouldn’t even at a volume of 100K/year.

    Negative. At a fixed development cost, the cost per vehicle is lower if spread over a larger number of cars. GM’s development cost per car is estimated to be 7000$.

    GM’s estimated direct cost for the BoltEV are around 29,000$.

    http://insideevs.com/swiss-financial-giant-ubs-tears-down-chevy-bolt/

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:55 pm)

    Coming to a theater near you Summer 2020:
    Who Resurrected the Electric Car? Plot, Director TBD.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (4:58 pm)

    DonC:

    We would have EVs without Musk. We would not have EVs without CARB.

    How many?

    20,000 – 24,000/year out of 3,000,000+ cars sold/yr?

    C’mon now, that argument is very weak, indeed. C.A.R.B. resulted in some Honda EVs and
    a couple thousand EV-1 leases. They were all scrapped after GM and the “Auto Alliance” as they
    like to be called – strongly lobbied ( and paid off ) California’s
    legislature to reduce the requirements.

    This is history. It’s in the books. We can move on – but GM hasn’t really changed it’s tune.
    Cite Bolt EV and Volt all you want. But GM’s actions are plain as the nose on our faces.

    EV adoption will come if Tesla succeeds in pulling the market with sales successes in the
    hundreds of thousands, not dribbling out units.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (5:07 pm)

    I’m not anti-GM.

    Never have been.

    I could forget what GM did and does today if they would just move on and move up.
    If they’d stop fighting Tesla direct sales and start building affordable mass market EVs and
    EREVs I wouldn’t hold any grudge.

    Thing is – they fight, balk, scheme and play ZEV credit games all day long – then tout
    Bolt EV as some form of proof that A) GM can build the best EV ; B) People don’t want
    them as sales numbers prove out.

    Just you wait. When Volt goes away and Bolt EV remains a side show until they have
    to discount prices and make more of them…

    We here are sick and tired of the game. Sure, they have stockholders to please and
    crossover SUVs and trucks are the best way they know how. But to play a game
    attacking the world’s only mass EV maker in courts, yet claiming they’re the green car
    champ? We don’t buy it for one second.

    The saga continues until Tesla bursts the dam. No government regulations required.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (5:08 pm)

    Four members of my family, several friends and I have worked in the automotive industry. I have every reason to be loyal to American auto makers but I’m looking forward to Tesla putting them all out of business. I’m also looking forward to Tesla putting Japanese, Korean and European auto makers out of business. None of them ever took Tesla seriously, including GM and Nissan. The Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt and Chevy Bolt are all pitiful attempts at competing with Tesla. Every one of these auto makers has the resources to compete with Tesla but they have chosen not to manufacture and sell a competitive EV. They all DESERVE to go out of business. Good riddance!!

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (5:15 pm)

    George S. Bower: He’s not right he just likes to argue….and he’s quite good at it. Like William F. Buckley:)

    I promise when the Mrs. gets home I’ll have her log on and give you a +1.

    When she reads today’s post and finds out I outed her, I’ll get chewed out.
    She’s posted on here as Voltowner for years now. Go back and check the
    archives.

    Just think – for all these years we all thought there was only 1 female
    regular poster here on GM-Volt!

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (5:15 pm)

    George S. Bower: Not his discussion again.

    You’re the one who keeps saying the Bolt EV is a tiny car and assuming the M3 will be large.

    If you want a larger car, get a Model S, not a Model 3.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (5:22 pm)

    James: I promise when the Mrs. gets home I’ll have her log on and give you a +1.

    When she reads today’s post and finds out I outed her, I’ll get chewed out.
    She’s posted on here as Voltowner for years now. Go back and check the
    archives.

    Just think – for all these years we all thought there was only 1 female
    regular poster here on GM-Volt!

    Are you kidding James. If true that’s cool as sh*t!!

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (5:22 pm)

    Kdawg:

    If you want a larger car, get a Model S,

    I already did:)

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (5:33 pm)

    Voltowner: It’s unconstitutional to block the free choice of a business as to how to sell it’s wares.

    Which part of the Constitution?

    Voltowner: Not everybody wants a rear drive

    Rear drive is not so good in MI. I’ll have to pay for AWD, or take it EZ in snowy weather.

    Voltowner: You are,
    in fact, slowing the revolution of the electric car by just a tad every time you
    buy from the gas guys.

    I don’t agree with this philosophy. By voting with my dollars, it shows traditional OEMs there’s a market for their EV products. Tesla can’t do it all by themselves. We actually need all automakers to provide EVs. There’s also a large portion of buyers who will not consider a pure BEV (see DaveG for example). Tesla doesn’t make an EREV.

    Voltowner: The Bolt EV is a subcompact wagon that should sell for $30,000
    BEFORE TAX BREAK.

    What you want, and what reality is are two different things. The cost of Li-ion batteries is still to high to sell at $30k for a profit. Tesla will lose money at $35K (if we ever see any at that price). I can say “I think Tesla should sell me a Model S for $25K” but why would they, and go in the red on it?

    Voltowner: Justifying
    it by convenience is just adding to the problem.

    I’m speaking as a consumer first. If I can’t get easily serviced, that comes from a company that has a history of needing service, and on top of that long service waits, then it may sway me from making that purchase. Again, that is just reality. I don’t make a habit of throwing $40K down money pits.

    Voltowner: What if this was James’ wife?
    Got a problem with that?

    When I noticed the similar thought process, and also the same typing (and long posts), it reminded me of Jame’s posts, so I asked.

    James: I’m plus one’ing all her comments as we speak – and I suggest you do the same, if you know what’s good for you!

    There’s nothing wrong w/civil discussion. Everyone is different, and that’s OK. We don’t all have to think the same.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (5:34 pm)

    George S. Bower: I already did:)

    So you’re admitting the Model 3 is not for you… too small.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (5:45 pm)

    Too many people here say GM was ‘right’ to destroy the EV1 after the CA requirement for ZEV was overturned by the supreme court. The fact is that GM is one of the companies that sponsored that case going to court in the first place! Just like they are doing now in fighting Tesla sales state-by-state. THAT is what makes GM the ‘bad guy’ in all of this.
    (I also agree that GM engineers do a fantastic job when allowed to by management.)

    Oh, and Elon didn’t go on a twitter ‘rant’ – he was reminding people of the actual history of EVs in America. (OK, maybe he was gloating just a little…)

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (6:32 pm)

    George S. Bower: GM’s estimated direct cost for the BoltEV are around 29,000$.

    This is incorrect. GM has never given a direct cost for the Bolt EV. But we have two separate tear downs, including the one you mention, that put the factory direct variable cost in the $34K range. Here is the direct quote from UBS: “selling price less variable production costs is in positive territory at ~$3k”. Since they consider MSRP to be selling price, which is weird in and of itself BTW, you’re looking at factory variable costs of $34K. This is exactly what Jon Bereisa said it was a year ago. (The UBS estimate might come from Jon Bereisa but I think it came from Munro & Associates).

    GM can’t wring out $5K in cost savings by producing 100K units a year. Even if it could, it would have to sell that many units. Hard to see that happening.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (6:37 pm)

    ParkTalk:
    Too many people here say GM was ‘right’ to destroy the EV1 after the CA requirement for ZEV was overturned by the supreme court.The fact is that GM is one of the companies that sponsored that case going tocourt in the first place!Just like they are doing now in fighting Tesla sales state-by-state.

    Enough of the “alternative facts”. CARB voluntarily curbed the ZEV mandate when GM came up with the cat converter. That was a good deal BTW. Having all vehicles have cat converters gives you far more pollution reduction than than you’d get from replacing a few ICE vehicles with BEVs. For the same reason, CAFE continues to be important for reducing pollution and emissions despite the fact that CAFE requirements can be met without ZEVs.

    That said, the decision to crush the EV-1 was stupid beyond belief. I doubt many people would seriously argue otherwise. Not continuing to develop the technology was also a bad decision, though that is not as clear cut.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (6:52 pm)

    Kdawg: So you’re admitting the Model 3 is not for you… too small.

    No

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (6:54 pm)

    DonC: This is incorrect.

    It was on UBS chart. Did I read the chart wrong?

    Edit: I just looked again. Its on the chart: 29K$ direct cost
    http://insideevs.com/swiss-financial-giant-ubs-tears-down-chevy-bolt/

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (7:02 pm)

    James: C’mon now, that argument is very weak, indeed. C.A.R.B. resulted in some Honda EVs and
    a couple thousand EV-1 leases. They were all scrapped after GM and the “Auto Alliance” as they
    like to be called – strongly lobbied ( and paid off ) California’s
    legislature to reduce the requirements.

    Really? The ZEV requirement was not “scrapped”. It is alive and well. Why do you think the Volt has 50+ miles of EV range and the Bolt has over 200 miles. Or why Tesla’s battery program died. It’s all ZEV. Without ZEV Tesla simply would never have gotten off the ground. No interest from investors. No interest from Toyota or MB. Sales of ZEV credits has always been part of Tesla’s business plan and, in fact, is the only reason Tesla has occasionally announced a profitable quarter.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (7:38 pm)

    George S. Bower: It was on UBS chart. Did I read the chart wrong?

    I think so. The chart is confusing. They break the line at the bottom but the entire part of the bar above the zero line is direct costs. AFAIK the spacer line, which might be construed as the break between direct and indirect costs, isn’t a break line. It’s just there so they can call out the contribution. This lines up with the text, which says a $3K margin between selling price and direct costs.

    The other huge issue is that there is really no good way to calculate development costs. GM rolls those into gross margin but doesn’t break this out by model, for obvious reasons.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (8:16 pm)

    Instant replay:

    Coming to a theater near you Summer 2020:
    Who Resurrected the Electric Car? Plot, Director TBD.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (8:58 pm)

    DonC: I think so. The chart is confusing. They break the line at the bottom but the entire part of the bar above the zero line is direct costs. AFAIK the spacer line, which might be construed as the break between direct and indirect costs, isn’t a break line. It’s just there so they can call out the contribution. This lines up with the text, which says a $3K margin between selling price and direct costs.

    The other huge issue is that there is really no good way to calculate development costs. GM rolls those into gross margin but doesn’t break this out by model, for obvious reasons.

    29K seems like a reasonable direct cost for the Bolt. GM inflates the number because they try to write off the costs too up front. They are sunk costs. Looking at the direct cost gives a better sense of what it costs to plunk one out.

    I think the direct costs are what matter if u want a basic understanding.

    GM isn’t losing money on each one.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (9:58 pm)

    DonC: Sales of ZEV credits has always been part of Tesla’s business plan and, in fact, is the only reason Tesla has occasionally announced a profitable quarter.

    I saw a blib from Elon that said GM gets more for ZEV credits than Tesla since Tesla has a surplus and has to sell them on the open market.

    I believe it.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (10:14 pm)

    George S. Bower: 29K seems like a reasonable direct cost for the Bolt. GM inflates the number because they try to write off the costs too up front. They are sunk costs. Looking at the direct cost gives a better sense of what it costs to plunk one out.

    I think the direct costs are what matter if u want a basic understanding.

    GM isn’t losing money on each one.

    I have no idea whatsoever what a “reasonable” cost is for the Bolt EV. I’m thinking we have three expert teams and three different estimates. (And GM has said it loses $9K on the Bolt EV whereas UBS is saying $7K). Seems like there is more a reasonable range than anything, and $29K seems on the low end. It could be right, certainly it’s not crazy low, but I’m thinking it’s too low.

    I don’t think GM is losing money once you count CAFE and ZEV credits. However, I think the Bolt EV is selling close to break even once you count the credits. Dealers are discounting $3.5K, and I’m assuming they not losing money. So I’m thinking GM is at break even over factory variable costs.

    But factory variable costs are not all short run variable costs, and, consequently, it would seem that GM is not recovering all of its short run variable costs. Also note the concept of “sunk” costs is wholly dependent on what you consider the short run. In the long run all costs are variable. In any event I don’t think GM worries a great deal about losing some money on its EV efforts at this point.

    Also note that GM follows the industry standard and includes all R&D in costs when determining gross margins. It’s definitely not standard. You could call that “inflating” the costs, but the industry has been doing it forever. Not a reason to criticize or assume there is some sinister motive.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (10:18 pm)

    George S. Bower: I saw a blib from Elon that said GM gets more for ZEV credits than Tesla since Tesla has a surplus and has to sell them on the open market.

    That was the biggest bit of BS I’ve ever read. Didn’t make sense. He seemed to be saying that GM and the other automakers didn’t need to buy credits from Tesla because they earned their own, so this makes Tesla’s credits less valuable than they should be. No idea what that means or how you get there.

    If you believe it I’d love for you to explain this to me.

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (10:34 pm)

    I just want to say I support EVs from all manufacturers. I own a 2011 Volt and did not buy it because I do not like Tesla or because I think GM is the best. I bought an EV so I could use less gas period. I’d like to add I’ve driven over 100k miles on my battery.

    I want to share an experience I had this weekend. Met someone at a cookout this past weekend. A friend introduced me as they guy that owns an electric car. She immediately spoke up saying I’d consider an electric car if they were not so expensive. I played the devils advocate asking her why she thinks they are so expensive. She said she heard that Teslas cost almost $100 grand. And that the cheaper ones weren’t worth the investment and had very little range. She knew that Chevy made the Volt but thats about it. So my thought was how do you get someone seriously interested when they immediately drop the EV option based on price. For her a reasonable price is around 25k. I told her about the model 3. She was not interested in the coolness of the Tesla. She needs a car to get to work everyday and an occasional trip to NH or Maine. I explained to her the concept of the Volt and that there are other models like the Prius Prime that might suit her needs. She also New very little of the federal tax credit and the Mass. refund. I did convince her to shop early fall for a potential deal on a 2017 and that she would be close to her $25k price on a well optioned EV. So in at least this case the Tesla was a hindrance to selling an EV.

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    James

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    Jun 12th, 2017 (11:16 pm)

    George S. Bower: Are you kidding James. If true that’s cool as sh*t!!

    She is cool. I remember her dreaming about solar panels and
    sustainable energy — I always thought that made her more
    attractive.

    I’m not just saying that because she will read this later. I have a feeling she will be responding to more posts, including mine…

    I’m always encouraging her to read the site. Especially on days like today. She digs Musk and Tesla. Who Killed The Electric Car? really blew our minds when a friend loaned us the DVD.

    I can say it is something we really have in common.

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    James

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    Jun 13th, 2017 (1:49 am)

    Update:

    Let’s just say the outing of my anonymous poster did not go well. And leave of at that.

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    Tim Shevlin

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    Jun 13th, 2017 (2:55 am)

    DonC: consider

    So much 20-20 hindsight displayed here by enthusiasts with no skin in the game. As for
    EV1 development, I seem to recall that years LATER, when Volt was released for production, Bob Lutz claimed they had no workable battery but they counted on one being ready just in time.

    We are lucky to have Elon here in the U. S. And we are lucky to have G. M. and Volt/Bolt here in the U. S. too. You want to yell at myopic car companies? Try M-B and BMW for starters. Enjoy the show.

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