Apr 14

Why Honda Says 80 Miles Range Is Enough For Its 2017 Clarity Electric

 

On Wednesday Honda unveiled its spacious and nicely appointed Clarity Electric sedan whose approximately 80 miles of estimated range would be about on par for a 2011 model year electric car.

To be offered initially later this year in California and Oregon with “an attractive lease program” based around an MSRP in the mid 30s, the all-electric Clarity is Honda’s latest entry in a market where 200-plus miles range for the mid 30s is the new norm.

The Japanese automaker’s nifty new EV is actually one variant within a three-in-one platform, and the Clarity also comes in a fuel cell version that’s available now, and a 42-mile all-electric range plug-in hybrid version due in 50 states later this year.

Given even base EVs these days are pushing 100-plus miles, and the 238-mile Chevy Bolt and 215-plus-mile Tesla Model 3 are priced within a couple thousand or so of it, many have asked what was Honda thinking.

No Mistake

If, as some commentators have suggested, Honda is suspected of being out of touch with the market, that would not incorrect, according to Honda.

“Today, there are a lot of claims in this space but no automaker knows more about customers of electrified vehicles than Honda,” said Steve Center, vice president of the Connected and Environmental Business Development Office at American Honda.

Steven Center introduces the new Clarity Plug-In Hybrid and Clarity Electric at the 2017 New York International Auto Show on Wednesday.

“Our first dedicated electric car came to market two decades ago,” said Center, “our first fuel cell vehicle more than 15 years ago. And along the way we have benefited from close relationships with our customers, which has informed the strategies we now pursue with the Clarity series.”

So, the 80-mile range in an otherwise “premium” five-passenger EV along the lines of an Accord was most deliberate, and Honda says it’s walking into this with eyes open.

This decade the automaker has also released limited-availability models which enabled it to collect copious amounts of customer data, which lends credence to its assertion of its expertise. The 2013-2014 lease-only Fit EV is one example, and the 2014 Accord Plug-in Hybrid was another. Before that, Honda’s 2000 Insight was the first modern-era hybrid-electric car sold in the U.S., and Honda’s assertion of a wealth of “electrified vehicle” customer experience comes also from that and subsequent hybrids.

If EV fans are still underwhelmed, Honda is otherwise embracing battery power to a greater degree than Toyota or any other Japanese carmaker, but like Toyota, Honda is convinced hydrogen fuel cell vehicles have far greater long-term potential.

“The Clarity Fuel Cell is for the true believers, the most devoted of green motorists, who really want to cut the cord altogether and be on the absolute leading edge of an advanced technology future,” said Conrad. “For the long term, we continue to believe that fuel cell technology has the greatest potential to address society’s energy and environmental concerns while better serving the needs of customers in terms of driving performance, range and refueling, which for the Clarity is 366 miles range with a 3 to 5 minute refuel.”

Clarity Electric Fits A Sub Niche

Not unlike another one-of-three-variants, the Hyundai Ioniq EV, which has limited space for batteries, a similar case is true of the Honda Clarity Electric. Its not very big 25.5-kWh pack occupies available space in the platform that Honda saves cost with in making three electrified versions. The smaller battery further keeps costs down, and there are EV fans who’ve said 80 miles is a right-sized setup, and they don’t wish to lug around or pay for a bigger battery.

It may be observed a Tesla Model 3 or a Chevy Bolt or next Nissan Leaf are priced similarly, but aside from the 2017 Clarity Electric’s range being no greater than a 2013 Nissan Leaf, it otherwise is a solid package.

Its electric motor is rated 161-horsepower (120-kilowatt) and 221 pounds-feet of torque, and this power may be routed via three selectable drive modes – Normal, Econ and Sport. The battery can be by charged with 240 volts in just over three hours or with DC fast charging it can achieve an 80 percent charge in just 30 minutes via SAE Combined Charging System connection.

Honda projects it will earn a relatively respectable EPA fuel economy rating of 120 MPGe city, 102 highway, 111 combined.

According to the world as Honda sees it, the 80 or so mile range EV does indeed fit a niche it knows to exist.

“We have more than 1,000 Fit EV customers who live within the range similar to that of the Clarity Electric,” said Honda’s Natalie Kumaratne, Environment & Safety Public Relations. “Honda has offered our lessees the opportunity to extend their leases since July 2015, and almost 70 percent of them have taken advantage of the offer, proving there is a customer base for the range the Clarity Electric provides.”

What’s more, said Kumaratne, “the Clarity Electric is content rich and is very spacious.”

“Our approach with the Clarity Electric needs to be considered in the context of the overall vehicle series. Based on our experience, we believe there is a market for a larger, more premium EV at an affordable price,” she said. “While pricing has yet to be announced, considering the size, performance and premium features, you can expect it to be very competitive.”

Features for the Accord-like sedan include available Apple CarPlay and Android Auto, Honda Sensing suite of safety and driver-assistive technologies standard, and high efficiency LED lights and 18-inch aluminum wheels.

Compliance Car

Honda has not made sales projections for the EV, but the entire Clarity line is not intended to set new electrified vehicle records.

“We are targeting 75,000 Clarity vehicles over the first four model years,” said Kumaratne. “We aren’t breaking out each variant’s projections; however, the Clarity Plug-in Hybrid is the volume leader.”

First Fit EV delivered.

A lot of those sales are expected to come from Honda loyalists, as alluded to with the Fit customers. Leases of that converted EV which had 82 miles range amounted to 92 in 2012, 569 in 2013, 407 in 2014 and 2 in 2015.

Honda has objected to the somewhat pejorative term “compliance car,” but as the saying goes, said advocate Mark Renburke of Drive Electric Cars New England, if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a compliance car.

A “compliance car” is called such as it complies with California zero-emission vehicle mandates held by that state and around a dozen others in the U.S.

Admittedly cynical of Honda’s latest electric car when Tesla, GM, Nissan, VW Group, BMW, and others are planning more than short-range limited market plug-ins, Renburke sees the Clarity Electric as a pure play by Honda to meet California’s ZEV rules.

“Basically they want to tap in to their existing base of environmentally-minded, already hybrid or EV driving customers, and continue to extend or ‘recycle’ EV credits, as they have done with the Fit EV,” said Renburke. “It’s essentially a carefully crafted compliance move to delay serious EV market offerings while ensuring acquisition of continued ZEV credits and minimal loss of existing loyal Honda or Fit EV customers.”

Other pro-plug-in states following California-style ZEV rules in the Northeast may follow, he suspects, but meanwhile the aim is to “sell a steady but low volume of BEVs … to earn ZEV credits required for 2018-2025 in order to be able to continue to volume selling its lower efficiency gasoline only cars, SUVs, etc.”

But Renburke predicts Honda will still come up short next to more bullish efforts including the Tesla Model 3, Chevy Bolt, etc., which will sell in tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, as Tesla predicts.

“Honda is still going to lose, but this product will mitigate their short term loss while ensuring they don’t have to take the plunge for a larger short term loss to gear up and actually selling 100,000-plus, 200-plus-mile EVs,” said Renburke.

Reports have alleged that automakers such as Fiat-Chrysler, GM, Ford, and others are losing more money than a legacy automaker would normally like in pushing EVs at this stage. Automakers have also petitioned President Trump saying they don’t sell in sufficient volumes, but the’ve been forced to build and market them by regulations they wish to see eased.

Consumer tax credits up to $7,500 have helped, but Tesla and GM are already on track to exhaust their allotment of 200,000 federal credits by 2018. In not diving in head first, Renburke suspects Honda is being cagey, taking its time with only toes in the EV waters, as industry production costs continue to come down.

It is, after all, about profit, and Honda is not the Goodwill, but a corporation, and so this is what it’s willing to do, based on its risk tolerance, and prediction of market timing.

To its credit also, offers Renburke, the Clarity is a larger, and more attractive vehicle priced in line with the old Fit.

“The Clarity has a better form factor, with a sedan look and appeal, than the Fit EV, so that will help convert more brand loyal Honda drivers who couldn’t stomach being seem in a Fit while being fine for the existing Fit EV lease returnees,” he said.

The Bright Side

Every new EV is one more in a market where other automakers have also dragged their heels, or are standing back even more than Honda, and more electric cars are expected this decade into next.

And according to a J.D. Power survey, the top three reasons any new car buyer chooses a certain vehicle over another are brand loyalty and styling, and number one is expected reliability. So, any plug-in car Honda offers already starts with a couple legs up.

Whether fuel cell technology does take off as robustly in coming years as Honda and others predict, and as the rulemakers at the U.S. EPA and California Air Resources Board also encourage, will remain to be seen.

Meanwhile, consumers in markets where the Clarity Electric is offered are promised a well-appointed, carefully engineered dedicated zero-emission car from a highly experienced and well-regarded automaker, and to each his own.

HybridCars.com

This entry was posted on Friday, April 14th, 2017 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

COMMENTS: 89


  1. 1
    Big Game James

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (6:45 am)

    It is nice to see a full-sized sedan electrified.

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    MnVikes

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (6:46 am)

    The only one of interest to me is the PHEV.
    Fuel Cell? We all know the reasons NOT.
    80 miles EV? DOA

    A nicely sized 5 passenger sedan with 42 miles AER? Now that is something I would be willing to consider.

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    Dave G

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (7:12 am)

    MnVikes: The only one of interest to me is the PHEV.

    Ditto. +1

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    Nelson

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (7:28 am)

    Honda is drinking some bad Kool-Aid. 80 mile EV could work, for $22K MSRP.

    NPNS! SBF!
    Volt#671

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    bro1999

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (7:30 am)

    Seriously, who is the target market for this car? Diehard Honda Fit EV fanatics? All 2,000 of them?

    The Clarity Electric might even be more of a joke than the fool cell version. Anyone who would buy the electric version over the PHEV one is crazy. With 200+ mile BEVs soon to become the new normal, Honda decides to go backwards with an 80 mile one? Really is mindblowing.

    But hey, the Clarity Electric is just a compliance car, so I’m sure Honda will sell the small # they have in mind.

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    Mark Z

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (8:00 am)

    Honda can give an award to the sales person who fools the most buyers into purchasing either of their hydrogen or BEV vehicles. Hopefully Consumer Reports will warn their readers of the danger of driving vehicles with inadequate refueling stations or antiquated battery range.

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    john1701a

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (9:12 am)

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    volt11

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (9:30 am)

    The plug-in hybrid version of the Clarity spells some trouble for Volt, I think. Much roomier, a class or two higher in interior trim with more luxury features (like power seats), better standard equipment (like ACC), charges in half the time (not like we haven’t been yelling at GM’s deaf ear since 2010 that they should have a 6.6kw charge system in the Volt), and might be cheaper.

    So it’s weird that a savvy entry like that is accompanied by this lame duck, 80 mile range electric only version. If you live in a warm climate, and only want it for running local errands and going out to dinner, an 80 mile range could make sense. Like it’s a good second car for retired Florida couples. But unless it’s under 30K before incentives, it’s so far behind the leading edge that I think they’ll be lucky to sell a thousand of them in a year.

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    Ryan

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (9:36 am)

    That would incorrect.

    Compliance car, unlike others, Honda needs very few zev credits so their Zevs only need to sell the n the hundreds

    Only car of interest is the PHEV

    Ah well

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  10. 10
    DonC

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (10:21 am)

    Still thinking a day late and a dollar short. We can see how well short range BEVs sell. Then again might make sense for Honda from a regulatory standpoint. It may need to do something given its FCV efforts have not panned out.

    One question is why the people who say GM should have brought out the Volt as a Cadillac don’t say the same thing about these cars from Honda and Toyota. Why didn’t Honda badge this as an Acura? Why is the Clarity not a Lexus? I have no idea but it’s interesting that most of the major automakers are all choosing to release its vehicles under the downscale badges.

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    MotoBCT

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (10:27 am)

    Dave G: Ditto. +1

    Ditto

    Has Honda stated who is the target in 2017 for this EV? How many actual miles will this vehicle travel with mom, dad,and three children. Glad that it is larger but that will encourage using it like regular car.

    Mom, dad, two children, and 200 lb grandma? Just don’t expect 80 AER

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  12. 12
    Loboc

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (10:37 am)

    volt11: lame duck, 80 mile range electric only version.

    It makes sense if they want to have all versions in the same price range.

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    Bacardi

     

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (10:43 am)

    Nelson:
    Honda is drinking some bad Kool-Aid.80 mile EV could work, for $22K MSRP.

    NPNS! SBF!
    Volt#671

    Was going to say the EXACT same thing…

    Imagine if Tesla could make a $19,995 MSRP Model 3 for with only 80 miles of range? It would become the first vehicle to break 1M sales…

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    Viking79

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (10:54 am)

    The Clarity plug-in hybrid is of far more interest and the one most likely to be of interest to the readers here. Range in between the two generations of Volt and possibly even Voltec drivetrain with more space and more power.

    Even Honda admits the EV version is a compliance car and says the PHEV will be the bigger seller and only one available in 50 states (at least initially).

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    Viking79

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (10:55 am)

    Bacardi: Was going to say the EXACT same thing…

    Imagine if Tesla could make a $19,995 MSRP Model 3 for with only 80 miles of range?It would become the first vehicle to break 1M sales…

    Tesla knows you have to have more than 200 mile range to get more sales, if they made an 80 mile range car it would sell poorly too.

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    Todd

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (10:55 am)

    Nelson,

    As a Fit EV lessee I will not touch an 80 mile BEV again when there are 200+ mile range cars available. We have 55,000 miles on our 2013 Fit EV, but it has taken daily planning to keep it charged for the day’s activities. It has been very good to us and reliable, but as soon as our Tesla Model 3 reservation is fulfilled the Fit goes back to Honda.

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    bro1999

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (10:56 am)

    john1701a: Who is the market for Volt ?

    Anyone who wants primarily EV driving but still has the flexibility to drive on gas to eliminate range anxiety.

    Majority of Prius drivers also fit the bill. Many have already made the switch.

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    Dave G

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (10:59 am)

    Ryan: Compliance car, unlike others, Honda needs very few zev credits so their Zevs only need to sell the n the hundreds

    Very true. +1.

    The Honda Clarity BEV and Fuel Cell versions are just compliance cars to satisfy CARB ZEV mandates.

    Ryan: Only car of interest is the PHEV

    And this is the only one they plan to sell nationally.

    With this in mind, I’m not sure why the article focuses on the BEV version. The big news is the PHEV.

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    bro1999

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (11:08 am)

    Going off on a tangent here, but it seems Toyota is desperate to prop up Prius sales, as it has now introduced a “Prius 1” trim that undercuts the previous lowest price Prius by $1,200.

    An even cheaper Prius….bet that is a blast to drive. Lol

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1109920_eco-cheap-new-2017-toyota-prius-one-trims-hybrid-price

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    Dave - Phoenix

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (11:24 am)

    I had a Nissan LEAF for a brief period, and learned that the Phoenix Metro area proved to be too large for an 80-mile range EV.

    There were several local trips that I simply could not use the LEAF for.

    Range anxiety is very real. Honda will learn this lesson the hard way, when sales fall well below expectations.

    But it does make a nice “compliance” car…

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    Dave - Phoenix

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (11:36 am)

    Bacardi: Imagine if Tesla could make a $19,995 MSRP Model 3 for with only 80 miles of range? It would become the first vehicle to break 1M sales…

    An 80-mile EV would be Tesla’s first failure.

    But in reality, Tesla would never build an 80 mile EV. Tesla has adhered to one philosophy with all their EV’s. Long range with high speed charging. An 80 mile EV does not fit into this philosophy.

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  22. 22
    MnVikes

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (11:41 am)

    bro1999:
    Going off on a tangent here, but it seems Toyota is desperate to prop up Prius sales, as it has now introduced a “Prius 1” trim that undercuts the previous lowest price Prius by $1,200.

    An even cheaper Prius….bet that is a blast to drive. Lol

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1109920_eco-cheap-new-2017-toyota-prius-one-trims-hybrid-price

    Stay tuned for John’s retort.
    3, 2, 1…… 😎

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  23. 23
    Viking79

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (11:49 am)

    The Prius has been fading. A completely new design usually boosts sales, and unfortunately for them they kept up their decline with the brand new model. One might say the Prius Prime is doing well, but the regular Prius has dropped that much more since its release. They aren’t getting many new buyers I don’t think.

    Before anyone says that the customers are buying other Toyota Hybrids, I have been tracking Toyota sales for the last 3 years, and for the YTD for 2015, 16, and 17 and it looks bad for their hybrids. They were 40,300, 39,420, and 36,109 respectively. 10 % decline in hybrid sales over the last year to date (Jan-Mar).

    Also, looking at only newer Prius and Prius Prime, the sum of the two are less than just the 2016 Prius last year (i.e. first 3 months last year the 2016 Prius sold 21,632 and this year the Prius Prime + Prius sold 20,115 over the same period).

    Toyota is falling behind on this front, considering they practically invented this segment 20 years ago.

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    john1701a

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (12:13 pm)

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    john1701a

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (12:29 pm)

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    Dave - Phoenix

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (12:45 pm)

    Viking79: The Prius has been fading.

    Yesterday’s news.

    Now that most automakers have hybrid versions of their mainstream passenger vehicles, people don’t have to buy an ugly hybrid to get good fuel economy.

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  27. 27
    Jackson

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (12:47 pm)

    Who is the market for Prime? Existing Toyota customers. This is mostly due to Toyota’s years of saturation and often excellent Prius advertising. That much I’ll give them.

    Who is the market for Volt? Statistically, many are former Prius owners. Drawn to the eco car by Toyota, a significant number have been motivated to check out a great breakthrough in the field without much additional advertising. I’m not aware that many Volt owners later traded for Prii.

    Don’t compare engineering, specs and cost without considering perception. When it comes to cars, perception is worth 60% or more to a sale. If GM would match half the advertising the Prius has gotten, the numbers would be very different.

    Is it truck month again?

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    john1701a

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (1:42 pm)

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    Viking79

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (1:59 pm)

    john1701a: What front ?
    They are pushing diversity by spreading the new design to Camry, RAV4, and C-HR.
    They are pushing lower cost by not depending upon a large-capacity battery or tax-credit.
    They are pushing to avoid expense & complexity by eliminating the need forliquid-cooling.
    They are pushing both EV and HV efficiency results.

    Exactly, they aren’t doing anything special. The Hyundai Ioniq is now the class leader in efficiency, most major companies have a hybrid CUV, they aren’t doing anything to set themselves apart. There is nothing wrong with them (except arguably styling), but there is nothing exciting about them either. The C-HR is maybe 6 years late to the party (I bought my Nissan Juke in 2010 which offered AWD and 50 more HP).

    Toyota is still has the best selling hybrids, but the trend of declining sales for many years now is not promising. They need to do something to stall that slide, but it isn’t happening.

    I will say it over and over, that Toyota is looking more like GM of the late 1990s. All it will take is some good competition and the giant will be toppled. I imagine this is Tesla is set to be “David” in this situation (and it won’t just be Toyota falling).

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    Tim Shevlin

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (2:00 pm)

    The Clarity PHEV is an example of not targeting what competition will be 3 years out (or whatever development time Clarity required) Chevy is doing a good job of leapfrogging existing EV parameters with both Bolt and Volt. Malibu is more likely to be Clarity’s competition from GM., based on everything but EV range.

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    cyaopec

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (2:02 pm)

    john1701a:
    Jackson,

    Volt gen-2 not targeting GM’s own shoppers is a death sentence when the tax-credits are used up.The stats you refer to were the result of conquest sales in the early years, when lease deals were so good it would be nuts not to take advantage.

    As for advertising Prius, when & where were they?I certainly didn’t encounter them. I heard Volt commercials daily on NPR.Of course, no amount of market awareness can deal with being priced too high.

    What the heck with GM do to draw buyers away from Tesla?The small & ordinary styling of Bolt, combined with a higher price poorly positions it.Honda is trying to avoid that by offering something larger and appealing, trading off range for a lower price.

    Easy, my Chevy dealer is not a hour away like the closest Tesla showroom or service center. I don’t want to do a four hour round trip if it will take Tesla four or five hours to fix a problem. (Home to service center and back–rinse and repeat.) No one knows what a stripper 35k M3 will have. Will it even come standard with XM radio? Or will that require the 1,500 dollar audio upgrade package plus 2k pano roof like the model S? I can get heated seats and steering wheel for 500 on the Bolt. Wonder how much that will be in the M3? The M3 will be great, no doubt. But only time will tell how much a “nice” M3 will really cost. Oh, and I don’t give a s**t if my Chevy gets dinged, goes unwashed or has lots of dog hair in it. That alone is worth the price of admission. Ever see an unwashed Model S? That’s pretty gross. But I have other things to do on Saturday morning than wash and wax a nice car. I’m glad the Bolt gives you 60 kWh without any associated smugness.

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    Steve

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (2:20 pm)

    An 80 mile range is insufficient for me for a vehicle in the $30k range. If the choice is between a 200 mile car and a 80 car at about the same price guess which I’d choose.

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    john1701a

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (2:25 pm)

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    Jackson

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (2:25 pm)

    john1701a: As for advertising Prius, when & where were they? I certainly didn’t encounter them. I heard Volt commercials daily on NPR. Of course, no amount of market awareness can deal with being priced too high.

    You must be blind.* Do you ever watch television? Did you never see the polar bear kissing the Prius owner, or the Prius wandering next to a field of flowers (which were really dressed up babies)? I haven’t seen a lot of P ads lately, but they aren’t as necessary now; the perception is already built.

    *Conveniently.

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  35. 35
    Jackson

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (2:31 pm)

    john1701a: The votes & comments that followed didn’t reveal anything new, same old responses.

    The question itself never reflects anything new, same old same old; even though you’ve asked it for close to 8 years: ignoring actual history. Why should we respond to it now? You’ll always bash GM and support Toyota, nothing new to see here. You’ve more than established a reputation from which you can never recover. Why do you even come here except to scratch some idiomatic itch in your noggin? None of it is ever constructive. We give you just the responses you deserve, nothing more.

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (2:41 pm)

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    BillR

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (2:46 pm)

    And now for the rest of the story.

    I seems that our friend John1701a likes to come here for the sole purpose of being negative about the Volt, while promoting his beloved Prissy.

    Well, he can no longer hide behind the internet. His last name is FAGNANT, and here is his Facebook page.

    https://www.facebook.com/john.fagnant

    Now I don’t have a facebook account, but my son does, so I made a comment under the picture of his new car which read “You would have been better off with a Chevy Volt”. That comment no longer seems to be posted. uummh?

    But it might be only fitting that we now all frequent this website to help our naive fellow poster realize that he could have made a much better choice.

    Looks like his wife is pretty handy with the sawzall!

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    Jackson

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (2:53 pm)

    BillR: I made a comment under the picture of his new car which read “You would have been better off with a Chevy Volt”. That comment no longer seems to be posted. uummh?

    John cannot tolerate an opposing viewpoint, but always offers his own. Hypocrite. Let him offer a comments section on his website, john1701a.com if he’s so balanced and fair-minded.

    He’s on Twitter now, too:

    https://twitter.com/john1701a

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    Jackson

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (3:13 pm)

    john1701a,

    We have issues with GM, and you’ve touched on many of them. Our heads are not in the sand, as you seem to think. You apply your judgments against us based on your perceptions, not reality.

    What we are not going to allow is for you to dictate to us some list of demands. Your actual purpose here is not to “help,” but to dispirit and disrupt; this is the engine that drives your criticisms. This is also something that never changes, and you will not succeed. We’re not going anywhere either.

    Don’t bother to deny this assessment. We know you oh so well.

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (4:02 pm)

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (4:05 pm)

    Be sure to load up on negative votes for our friend, he’s already digging himself out of the hole; one wifi hotspot at a time (and he’ll continue to do it, until Tuesday. Doubt me? Look at some past visitations). It’s not thoughtful people who are agreeing with him; our votes are cast when the thread is new, and the offense appears to the greatest number. His positive votes appear one at a time, over many hours and late into the night. And how many votes are cast by thoughtful people 4 days later? He has an advantage on Fridays because the post will be easy to find for a couple of extra days. Don’t forget the late entries, too. We can’t get rid of him, but we can help keep him from seeming like a normal person. At least, make him work for it. If you haven’t voted yet, go back.

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    Dakster

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (4:09 pm)

    cyaopec: Easy, my Chevy dealer is not a hour away like the closest Tesla showroom or service center. I don’t want to do a four hour round trip if it will take Tesla four or five hours to fix a problem. (Home to service center and back–rinse and repeat.) No one knows what a stripper 35k M3 will have. Will it even come standard with XM radio? Or will that require the 1,500 dollar audio upgrade package plus 2k pano roof like the model S? I can get heated seats and steering wheel for 500 on the Bolt. Wonder how much that will be in the M3? The M3 will be great, no doubt. But only time will tell how much a “nice” M3 will really cost. Oh, and I don’t give a s**t if my Chevy gets dinged, goes unwashed or has lots of dog hair in it. That alone is worth the price of admission. Ever see an unwashed Model S? That’s pretty gross. But I have other things to do on Saturday morning than wash and wax a nice car. I’m glad the Bolt gives you 60 kWh without any associated smugness.

    I have two Chevy dealers within 15 minutes of driving. Nearest Tesla showroom is over 2,000 miles away.

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (4:18 pm)

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    CDAVIS

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (4:23 pm)

    Honda said: “Today, there are a lot of claims in this space but no automaker knows more about customers of electrified vehicles than Honda…”

    ——–

    Not

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    Dave - Phoenix

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (4:45 pm)

    Jackson: john1701a,

    We have issues with GM, and you’ve touched on many of them. Our heads are not in the sand, as you seem to think. You apply your judgments against us based on your perceptions, not reality.

    What we are not going to allow is for you to dictate to us some list of demands. Your actual purpose here is not to “help,” but to dispirit and disrupt; this is the engine that drives your criticisms. This is also something that never changes, and you will not succeed. We’re not going anywhere either.

    Don’t bother to deny this assessment. We know you oh so well.

    We definitely have issue with many of the decisions GM has made and how they market the Volt.

    Our biggest frustration is that GM could and should be selling more Volts, but is choosing not to for reasons not revealed to us.

    The one thing most of us seem to agree on (if we are not name John1701a), is that GM built an amazing vehicle in the Volt that has both performance, style and efficiency. We Volt owners continually feel like we are having our cake and eating it too.

    I feel that way every day in my Volt.

    I have owned other hybrids and EV’s and never felt the way about them, that I do my Volt. There was always some “trade-off” that took some of that luster off compared to the Volt. Usually that trade-off was in performance or style.

    What keeps me in love with my Volt every day is that I don’t feel like I’m driving an eco-box even though I rarely use even a drop of gas unless I’m going on a long trip. I can maneuver as I see fit in any city traffic condition, having the performance I need, when I need it.

    That keeps me smiling every day 🙂

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    Eco_Turbo

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (4:59 pm)

    bro1999,

    Can’t imagine why anyone would buy a car that doesn’t have pockets on the backs of the seats. 😎

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    Mark Z

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (5:05 pm)

    Jackson: He’s on Twitter now, too: https://twitter.com/john1701a

    While the tweets are from 2010, John’s third and last tweet says it all. The attitude in the second tweet isn’t a surprise and shows how others suffer for him to get 50 mpg.

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    Dan Petit/Petit Technical College

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (5:32 pm)

    Honda could be setting this up for the Sodium (alkaline-doped) Glass battery, which has three times the energy density.

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    john1701a

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (5:41 pm)

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (5:46 pm)

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (5:53 pm)

    john1701a,

    It’s been said already. We know where you’re coming from, and will never forget.

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    Mark Z

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (6:32 pm)

    john1701a,
    Here is what you can do to delete the fake twitter account: https://cksyme.com/report-shut-fake-twitter-accounts/

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (7:09 pm)

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (7:19 pm)

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (8:25 pm)

    bro1999: Anyone who wants primarily EV driving but still

    Viking79: Exactly, they aren’t doing anything special.

    cyaopec: Easy, my Chevy dealer is not a hour away like the closest Tesla

    Jackson: You must be blind.* Do you ever watch television?

    It may be time to stop feeding the trolls. Just click -1 and move on.

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    Dan Petit/Petit Technical College

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (9:01 pm)

    More interesting news about the University of Texas at Austin’s Technology Commercialization Dept.;

    The Sodium Glass Battery Technology is available for Licensing.

    The reference from Houston, the oil refining center of the country, regarding a cathode developmental issue, is ***very*** obsolete.

    See
    news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough

    But I will check with University of Texas by phone on Monday, and report back here late in the day.

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    American First

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (11:12 pm)

    Dave – Phoenix: Yesterday’s news.

    Now that most automakers have hybrid versions of their mainstream passenger vehicles, people don’t have to buy an ugly hybrid to get good fuel economy.

    Very true! My 2014 Ford Fusion Hybrid has reached up to 54 MPG, and constantly gets over 40 MPG every day. It is admired by all my friends who have imports, including Toyotas and Hondas.

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (11:17 pm)

    BillR:

    Well, he can no longer hide behind the internet.His last name is FAGNANT,

    Sounds like “FAG GNAT”, small and queer!

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (11:21 pm)

    Dakster: I have two Chevy dealers within 15 minutes of driving. Nearest Tesla showroom is over 2,000 miles away.

    Same with my case. But I can NEVER drive to the closest Tesla dealer which is in Florida, unless the make a Model SUB (as in “submarine).

    Raymond

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    Apr 14th, 2017 (11:25 pm)

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (1:46 am)

    Raymondjram: Same with my case. But I can NEVER drive to the closest Tesla dealer which is in Florida, unless the make a Model SUB (as in “submarine).

    Raymond

    It isn’t much of a picnic for me to drive to Washington state and I sure could drive a Tesla back without taking a Ferry. (and even then I would be concerned about range).

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    MnVikes

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (6:25 am)

    john1701a:
    Jackson,

    It won’t make the sales problem go away.Reaching a new audience remains unfulfilled until it is finally addressed.

    Again, this is what Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda are all attempting to do.

    John,
    Find one person here who has not criticized GM for different aspects of their Voltec rollout? We all wish the Voltec drive was in multiple vehicle formats, ala Toyota HSD. Did they meet their initial price and sales goal? Nope, but at least they tried. They are still the number one all time seller for PHEVs in the US. Even with increasing competition they still had their best 1st Qtr sales ever. Maybe as more companies roll products out people are choosing the Volts over the competition.

    Question for you: All else aside, do you even like the Volt? Have you ever drove one? If not I’d gladly meet and let you take mine for a spin. When I purchased in June of 2014, my choice came down to one of two vehicles. The loaded MY13 Volt or a loaded Lexus ES300h, quite the variant I’d say 🙂 I gave up the larger very plush sedan with a very respectable MPG by a company known for its quality and resale value to support the Voltec technology. In 2014, it was really the only choice for me as Tesla’s was to new, Leafs didn’t have the range, and all other PHEVs didn’t have the AER I needed to drive months at a time without using gas. My work requires me to take 3-5 300 mile round trips a year.

    I came back to GM after being a Toyota and Honda fan for years after I swore off the big three in the 80’s. My knock on the Volt? I wish it was bigger. I would gladly pay 5-10k more for a PHEV with at least 40 miles AER and more passenger room. But of course I also require some decent cargo space which is what eliminated the Fusion Energi back when I purchased. The Volt makes most trips to Home Depot a breeze.

    I am interested to see what kind of trunk space the Clarity has as that might be the deciding factor if it’s on my cars to consider list. For all its imperfections, GM won me over with the Volt. If they keep me by offering the Voltec drive in a larger vehicle time will tell.

    All things aside, it is STILL the all time sales leader for PHEVs and has sold more in the 1st qtr than any other PHEV in an increasing competitive market. A market that the Prius Has been in since what, 2012? What will happen when the tax credit runs out? Who knows. Maybe they get extended, maybe it’s eliminated. I’d like to see it modified to only be a credit for cars with X % American made and assembled which fits right in with President Trumps “Make America Great Again” theme. Again, time will tell 🙂

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    Dave G

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (6:39 am)

    Raymondjram: Same with my case. But I can NEVER drive to the closest Tesla dealer which is in Florida, unless the make a Model SUB (as in “submarine).

    I’ll never buy a pure BEV, so Tesla is a mute point.

    For our next car, we’re looking at either the Pacifica Hybrid plug-in, or the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. This will replace our current CUV.

    When it comes time to replace our Volt, it will either be another Volt, or the Honda Clarity PHEV. If the Clarity’s 42 miles all-electric range is real, that makes it a real contender. It would also be nice having a little more room than the Volt for our main car. In the end, it will come down to price. The Volt doesn’t offer any lower trim options, so the base model is very well equipped, which means it’s a better deal than most people realize. On the other hand, Honda is our favorite brand, with excellent reliability and value, but as I’ve said before, with so few plug-ins available, brand loyalty seems kind of stupid to me. At this stage of the game, every plug-in should be evaluated individually, without any bias of brand loyalty.

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    Dave G

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (8:50 am)

    MnVikes: Find one person here who has not criticized GM for different aspects of their Voltec rollout?

    Don’t feed the trolls.

    No matter how how rational he seems at first, he’ll end up trying his best to upset you. And he’s done this every weekend, almost without fail, for the last 5 years. This leads me to believe he’s a sick individual.

    I’ve learned to not even bother reading his responses anymore.

    Just click -1 and move on…

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    Dan Petit/Petit Technical College

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (10:05 am)

    Every OEM must conform to the limiting physics of their developmental timeframes.

    8 years or so ago, there was nothing.

    Honda has now caught up with the 42 mile EREV.

    All OEM’s go more slowly because of the many new types of parts and systems.

    With the Sodium Glass Battery, engineers will need, we estimate, to reformat 18% of the power handling designs, taking 3 to 5 more years, but the motoring public will understand the cost benefits very well by then.

    Meanwhile, we are ecstatic about our Volt engineering masterpiece.

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    john1701a

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (10:22 am)

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (12:47 pm)

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (12:57 pm)

    Dan Petit/Petit Technical College: Honda has now caught up with the 42 mile EREV.

    Yes, if the 42 miles all-electric range is real.

    In the past, we’ve seen many car makers over-promise and under-deliver on this.

    With the Volt, back in 2007, GM originally said it would be 40 miles, but when the real product arrived in 2011, it was only 35 miles. More recently, the Cadillac CT6 PHEV also had a similar over-promise and under-deliver issue with the electric range.

    Back in 2015, Toyota leaked that the next Prius plug-in would have 30-35 miles electric range:
    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099222_next-toyota-prius-plug-in-hybrid-to-have-30-to-35-miles-of-range-source
    but when the real Prius Prime specs were announced, it was only 25 miles AER.

    Also, if I remember correctly, when Honda announced their Accord PHEV several years ago, they originally said it would have over 20 miles electric range, but ended up with only 13 miles AER on the real product.

    So this is why I keep saying IF the 42 miles is real…

    By contrast, Chrysler originally promised 30 miles AER on the Pacifica Hybrid, but actually delivered 33, so that was a pleasant surprise.

    And let’s not forget, the Gen2 Volt promised 50 miles AER, and delivered 53.

    I’ll be VERY interested to see the final the EPA rated electric range for the Honda Clarity PHEV.

    This is especially important because these types of range differences are on the steep part of the curve. If it were 60 vs 55 miles AER, the difference would be a lot less, as you can see below.

    curve_zpsy2jwhctv.jpg

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    john1701a

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (1:46 pm)

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    American First

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (1:48 pm)

    Dave G: Yes, if the 42 miles all-electric range is real.

    In the past, we’ve seen many car makers over-promise and under-deliver on this.

    With the Volt, back in 2007, GM originally said it would be 40 miles, but when the real product arrived in 2011, it was only 35 miles.More recently, the Cadillac CT6 PHEV also had a similar over-promise and under-deliver issue with the electric range.

    Back in 2015, Toyota leaked that the next Prius plug-in would have 30-35 miles electric range:
    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099222_next-toyota-prius-plug-in-hybrid-to-have-30-to-35-miles-of-range-source
    but when the real Prius Prime specs were announced, it was only 25 miles AER.

    Also, if I remember correctly, when Honda announced their Accord PHEV several years ago, they originally said it would have over 20 miles electric range, but ended up with only 13 miles AER on the real product.

    So this is why I keep saying IF the 42 miles is real…

    By contrast, Chrysler originally promised 30 miles AER on the Pacifica Hybrid, but actually delivered 33, so that was a pleasant surprise.

    And let’s not forget, the Gen2 Volt promised 50 miles AER, and delivered 53.

    I’ll be VERY interested to see the final the EPA rated electric range for the Honda Clarity PHEV.

    You need to add the 2017 Chevy Bolt EV to the right of the Model S point on that graph, because there are several Bolt EV owners who have passed the 300 mile EV range. And you are missing the Ford Fusion Energi on the left side.

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    Dan Petit/Petit Technical College

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (2:12 pm)

    That’s my favorite graph, Dave G.; clean, clear, and gets the practicality in focus.

    Keep it handy for OEM’s to reference.

    Yes, if Honda really gets to the 42 miles, that would not only be really nice, but if an OEM is going to all that trouble to go EREV, they can maximize that spec by doing an idle boost above 57 mph due to wind resistance, of running “Maintenance Mode” to idle the fluids around the engine and transmission so quietly, that you actually can not hear the engine getting exercised a few minutes a day to offset those few miles of higher wind resistance at the very same time as running “Maintenance Mode”. We recommend 5 minutes or more to heat up the exhaust system to clear the condensate and light up the catalytic converter to keep it clean also.

    Doing that, we get our 44-45 mile rating up to 48 to 51 miles electric range easily, but we have to keep track of when we’re at 57 mph for a few miles to switch to “hold” manually.

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    john1701a

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (5:01 pm)

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    Kdawg

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (8:07 pm)

    john1701a,

    What’s wrong with your brain? No seriously, do you have some condition that has been diagnosed?

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    john1701a

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (9:27 pm)

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    Dave -Phoenix

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (11:19 pm)

    john1701a:
    Kdawg,

    It’s all the engineering & business classes, combined with decades of firsthand experience, that give me a different perspective on the situation.

    That explains the lack of people skills… We keep all our engineers locked up so the customers don’t see them.

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (11:34 pm)

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    Dave -Phoenix

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (11:55 pm)

    john1701a:
    Dave -Phoenix,

    Many here have engineer blinders on.That’s why it is so painfully difficult to get them to acknowledge the challenges GM faces getting the technology from enthusiasts to mainstream consumers. They don’t understand the counter-intuitive and passion verses logic nature of the automotive business.Great engineering does not translate to great sales.

    I wasn’t talking about them…

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    Eco_Turbo

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    Apr 15th, 2017 (11:55 pm)

    john1701a: Think about how handy that feature could be

    It would also be very handy for you, because it would make the Volt by definition a hybrid with a much bigger battery than necessary.

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    BillR

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    Apr 16th, 2017 (8:21 am)

    Kdawg:
    john1701a,

    What’s wrong with your brain?No seriously, do you have some condition that has been diagnosed?

    Kdawg,

    Anyone with a brain, and especially anyone with an engineering background, understands that the Volt has leapfrogged the Prius in technology and value.

    Compared to his new “Prime”, the 2nd Gen Volt,

    1) Accelerates faster
    2) Handles better
    3) Has much more range
    4) Has a battery technology with pharmaceutical quality – failure rates of 1 in a million
    5) Millions of miles of proven plug-in experience
    6) With a clean grid like here in New England (less than 800 lbs or CO2 per MWh) the carbon emissions are less than half that of a 50 mpg hybrid
    7) Is much more attractive and eye catching

    If Johnboy is truly intelligent, he knows the Volt is superior in just about every way. But look at his website, and his constant posting on this site (where he really doesn’t belong).

    I think you will find that Johnboy is on the Toyota payroll (or gets kickbacks, discounts, incentives, etc.).

    Either that or you are correct, he is totally delusional.

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    john1701a

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    Apr 16th, 2017 (9:17 am)

    Anyone with a brain, and especially anyone with an engineering background, understands that the Volt has leapfrogged the Prius in technology and value.

    There it is!

    No matter how much I try to direct the discussion to GM’s own product-line, asking how Volt is going to attract GM’s own loyal customers, all you care about is conquest. That brain-dead attitude of “must be better than Prius” is what destroyed any chance of it actually drawing in owners of Cruze, Malibu, Impala, and Equinox.

    If Johnboy is truly intelligent, he knows the Volt is superior in just about every way.

    That has absolutely nothing to do with what I’ve been posting about. The whole “vastly superior” nonsense is the trophy-mentality. You’ve become so obsessed with winning against Toyota, you’ve sacrificed everything else for the sake of the single battle. The war itself is against traditional vehicles… which Volt is clearly losing.

    I think you will find that Johnboy is on the Toyota payroll (or gets kickbacks, discounts, incentives, etc.).

    Nothing. Not a penny. No association beyond being just a customer.

    That doesn’t make any sense anyway. If I am somehow here to promote Prius, how come I don’t actually post about it? Notice there hasn’t been any mention of my Prime. None of the experiences have been posted. No data. No photos. Nothing.

    …he is totally delusional.

    Who is the market for Volt ?

    That question, asked scores of times about Volt and now relevant to Bolt too, is what set everyone off here. They know conquest is a dead-end choice and has serious consequences later. Yet, it’s just pretend everything is fine. Negative vote.

    Pointing out that GM’s own loyal customers continue to disregard Volt as a viable purchase choice gets me the label of delusional. After 6 full years and 2 generations, what in the world are you seeing? The concern for too little, too slowly has been validated. Detroit, we have a problem.

    Remember the suggestions for dealing with it? Honda obviously does.

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    Dan Petit/Petit Technical College

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    Apr 16th, 2017 (9:18 am)

    Using the engine beyond trace amounts of gasoline as measured by about a cup of gas for maintenance mode is wasteful if there is plenty of electric range available to complete the day.

    A settable speed margin, duration, and portional-blended slight power contribution is what I am describing, not an all-out high torque engine take-over of propulsioning.

    For example:
    People start out their workdays frequently driving a several-mile stretch of high speed before getting into the usual 5 mph to 45 mph traffic the rest of the way to work.

    In our Volt, there is an 8.5 mile stretch of highway that “Hold” is selected to maintain the higher efficiency of below 55 mph electric range for later, since traffic behind it wants to go the full (or more) 65 mph.

    Running any EREV engine to charge up the battery for later use, while at the same time propelling the vehicle isn’t as efficient, and is only for saving some electric power for more quietly going up mountains such as Pikes Peak, without running the engine at the higher end of output, which it easily can do.

    That’s a non existing event for 99.9999999% (nine nines) of all miles traveled, but GM put it in there anyway.

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    Dan Petit/Petit Technical College

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    Apr 16th, 2017 (9:28 am)

    Just a quick note for posters, unless it is complimentary, I recommend avoiding direct references to other posts, as if you are teaching the public, which we are.

    That way, when a post is collapsed, the reading flows more logically for new visitors.

    Use third person technical facts about technical facts, (“spoken about”). (Not first person being “speaker” or second person being “spoken to”).

    When teaching a class, illogic is passively and politely dismissed by continuity of the next valid set of technical facts.
    (The illogical subconscious can not sort out/distinguish between a wish and a fact, especially if it has been long term unsettled for some reason).

    Teaching continuity continues.

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    Rickoshay

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    Apr 16th, 2017 (9:57 am)

    Dave – Phoenix: We definitely have issue with many of the decisions GM has made and how they market the Volt.

    Our biggest frustration is that GM could and should be selling more Volts, but is choosing not to for reasons not revealed to us.

    The one thing most of us seem to agree on (if we are not name John1701a), is that GM built an amazing vehicle in the Volt that has both performance, style and efficiency. We Volt owners continually feel like we are having our cake and eating it too.

    I feel that way every day in my Volt.

    I have owned other hybrids and EV’s and never felt the way about them, that I do my Volt. There was always some “trade-off” that took some of that luster off compared to the Volt. Usually that trade-off was in performance or style.

    What keeps me in love with my Volt every day is that I don’t feel like I’m driving an eco-box even though I rarely use even a drop of gas unless I’m going on a long trip. I can maneuver as I see fit in any city traffic condition, having the performance I need, when I need it.

    That keeps me smiling every day

    Exactly how I feel about my Volt. I have owned other hybrid vehicles as well. It is exhilarating, though, to drive a car that performs very well, looks good, is reliable, and is well thought out. And best of all requires, for me, a trip to the gas station every 6 weeks.
    I should be seeing other Volts more often than I do.

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    john1701a

     

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    Apr 16th, 2017 (9:59 am)

    Dan Petit/Petit Technical College: Running any EREV engine to charge up the battery for later use, while at the same time propelling the vehicle isn’t as efficient, and is only for saving some electric power for more quietly going up mountains such as Pikes Peak, without running the engine at the higher end of output, which it easily can do.

    If used properly, there can be an overall benefit. For example, when you’re on a road trip and don’t have anywhere to recharge. Taking advantage of charge-while-cruising could result in an overall benefit.

    Giving the choice of how much of a load to put on the engine is an option. Most people wouldn’t have a clue though which is overall best and would simply choose max. The suggestion of lighter load could work well in combination with GPS, where the system recognizes you are far from home and automatically tops off a buffer.

    And now this is where I break the no reference to Prius… since obviously, some claim I do anyway, so why not? The plug-in owners group here welcomes operational detail sharing (teaching moments). Prime does offer this. There’s a charge-mode available. It rather aggressively replenishes electricity too, from 0 to 80% (that’s 20 miles range) in 30 minutes.

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    stuart22

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    Apr 16th, 2017 (10:59 am)

    No disagreement here – the 80 mile BEV version will fly like a dead duck. Honda execs are fooling themselves in saying they know the EV market better than any other automaker. Apparently they missed the news that the market standard for range has tripled with the Bolt and soon to be Model 3.

    I bet none of them have lived with a car that gets only 80 miles of range. Or if they have, they have many other options to call on to round trip them to places an 80 mile range car could not.

    I know – I’ve been driving an 80 mile range Spark EV for over a year, and while it is a great car for local driving, it does not come close to covering all my destination needs and wants in the San Francisco Bay Area where I live.

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    Francois Charbonneau

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    Apr 16th, 2017 (11:39 am)

    Dave – Phoenix,

    For quite some time I also have been wondering why GM did not advertise their VOLT? Does not make sense right? But think of this if you may, the system was set-up flawed from the beginning. 250k each manufacturer was the problem. Have you ever seen a bicycle race during the Olympics? The oval one on the specialized track? Where the cyclist wait indefinitely by holding their position before they actually start the race, they wait for the other cyclist to take the lead and usually the one from behind has the advantage and strategy to overtake the lead.
    Until congress changes the rules, this will stall and potentially kill the EV market, add to that the low price of gas and not surprising you see all the manufacturers complaining about EPA rules.
    I can’t believe how many people are so blind to see this and the hypocrisy about subsidies with EV’s and nothing about oil subsidies is a joke.
    The whole subsidy thing should have been based upon a time limit instead of number of sales.

    But lets get back to the article, 80 miles?? I don’t think so, I don’t know how to set up a survey here but if I could I would simply ask, comparing an ICE vs an EV.

    1. Would you pay an additional $7,000 after rebait for an EV that gave you 300 miles and was capable of recharging to 80% in 30 minutes?
    2. Would you be willing to pay an additional $1,000 after rebait for an EV that gave you 80 miles and was capable of recharging to 80% in 30 minutes?
    3. Would prefer to stay with an ICE because of cost difference?

    Let’s see who wins? Any takers on this?

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    Jackson

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    Apr 16th, 2017 (5:54 pm)

    “Why Honda Says 80 Miles Range Is Enough For Its 2017 Clarity Electric”

    Because that’s what they’ll sell, and what they can manage.

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    Dave - Phoenix

     

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    Apr 17th, 2017 (10:57 am)

    Francois Charbonneau: For quite some time I also have been wondering why GM did not advertise their VOLT? Does not make sense right? But think of this if you may, the system was set-up flawed from the beginning. 250k each manufacturer was the problem. Have you ever seen a bicycle race during the Olympics? The oval one on the specialized track? Where the cyclist wait indefinitely by holding their position before they actually start the race, they wait for the other cyclist to take the lead and usually the one from behind has the advantage and strategy to overtake the lead.
    Until congress changes the rules, this will stall and potentially kill the EV market, add to that the low price of gas and not surprising you see all the manufacturers complaining about EPA rules.
    I can’t believe how many people are so blind to see this and the hypocrisy about subsidies with EV’s and nothing about oil subsidies is a joke.
    The whole subsidy thing should have been based upon a time limit instead of number of sales.

    But lets get back to the article, 80 miles?? I don’t think so, I don’t know how to set up a survey here but if I could I would simply ask, comparing an ICE vs an EV.

    1. Would you pay an additional $7,000 after rebait for an EV that gave you 300 miles and was capable of recharging to 80% in 30 minutes?
    2. Would you be willing to pay an additional $1,000 after rebait for an EV that gave you 80 miles and was capable of recharging to 80% in 30 minutes?
    3. Would prefer to stay with an ICE because of cost difference?

    Let’s see who wins? Any takers on this?

    One can’t help but worry, that the end of the tax break is a ticking time bomb for GM, and Nissan, the front runners of the plugin market, and will reward those automakers who lagged behind.

    Under the previous regime, there was hope that political action could be taken as the end of the tax break loomed for GM/Nissan, but there is little hope this President and Congress will doing anything, with their top priority being helping the oil industry, and to make America’s air and water dirty again.

    The first to reach the 250,000 milestone will be Tesla, but one almost has to treat them differently than the rest of the automakers. But still, the Model 3 may give us a little evidence on #1 over the next 2 years.

    For many of us current Volt owners, the tax break was almost a bonus. I would have bought a Volt with or without the tax break. But I can’t speak for the rest of America. Money talks…

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    john1701a

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    Apr 17th, 2017 (12:30 pm)

    Dave – Phoenix: One can’t help but worry, that the end of the tax break is a ticking time bomb for GM, and Nissan, the front runners of the plugin market, and will reward those automakers who lagged behind.

    GM rested on its laurels. That’s what all the “too little, too slowly” concern was about. They had an opportunity, a huge lead over the rest of the industry, but chose not to use it. GM should have been taking advantage of the tax-credits to penetrate their own customer base, to stir interest in GM dealer showrooms. Instead, focus was only on conquest sales. No change among GM loyal buyers. Building their demand never happened. Interest simply faded away. So much time… wasted.

    The failure of gen-2 Volt to make up for the loss made that bad situation worse. GM ended up abandoning their long-time position of being anti-EV in favor of starting over with a push for Bolt. All that effort to promote “range anxiety” as a plug-in selling-point turned into more wasted time.

    Meanwhile, we see the other automakers… who supposedly “lagged behind” …as now having a huge advantage. They have many more tax-credits still available, and more importantly, they stayed true to priorities. Toyota never loss sight of the affordable goal. Ironically, it was GM who had coined the “nicely under $30,000” slogan, which has become an industry target. Nissan has wisely held off with the reveal of their gen-2 upgrade, watching how things play out with GM as it continues to use up precious tax-credits.

    Remember, the goal of that subsidy was to help establish & improve high-volume profitable sales… not to break speed & distance records. That’s why still not getting a clear message of intent from GM is becoming more and more of a concern. The blind defense of enthusiasts (vote down what you don’t like to read) is making this growing worse situation a ticking time bomb.

    The suggested “lite” version of Volt, a second model targeted at GM’s own loyal customers, never came to be. Ironically, that very offering is basically what Toyota delivered with Prime. The reward will come to automakers who paid close attention to priorities… delivering a configuration capable of high-volume profitable sales prior to expiration of the tax-credits.

    Time is almost up.

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