Feb 25

Volt fleet to cross 400 million EV miles today

 

The running tally of Chevrolet Volt miles kept by GM shows cumulative electric only miles are enough to walk the Great Wall of China 30,000 times.

668x357xIMG_3534.jpg.pagespeed.ic.gdFbSbI6uC
 

Or, in simpler terms, it’s over 399,700 as of 11:30 p.m. EST Feb. 24 and when I checked 24 hours ago, it was somewhere close to half a million less or thereabouts.

Screen Shot 2014-02-24 at 11
 

Assuming the same rate today (2/25) the EV mile count should be ticking along nicely towards four hundred million miles.

UPDATE: This assumes also GM’s Web site is accurate. Presently at 10:50 a.m., if you refresh the page the supposed running count re-starts at 399,714,060. That’s right. You can watch the purported real-time data run up but if you refresh, it starts again at a lower count …

As you can see by screenshots taken around the same time, documented total miles are over 639.6 million and gallons of gasoline saved are over 20.7 million.

Screen Shot 2014-02-24 at 11.1
 

(Oh also, the EPA says the Volt gets 38 miles all-electric range, not 28 miles, in case some of you were beginning to think I forgot that. I was out video shooting all day and could not edit yesterday’s article.)

Screen Shot 2014-02-24 at 11.a
 

Source: Chevrolet

Link of interest: Voltstats

Thanks to: kdawg who mentioned the EV miles milestone the other day in comments.

This entry was posted on Tuesday, February 25th, 2014 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 60


  1. 1
    xiaowei1

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (6:06 am)

    its probably considerably more when you add in all foreign owned Volts/Amperes too – I’ve got 8,700+ EV miles that should be added on… Yay for us!


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    Dave G

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (6:42 am)

    Anyone have an idea of how this compares to other cars? How many total miles on all Leafs? How many total miles on Model S? How many total EV miles on Ford Energi and PiP models?


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    Mark Z

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (7:00 am)

    Dave G,

    I have been searching the Tesla stats. The data is separated. The 2100+ Roadsters get a real time webpage of almost 42 million miles. http://www.teslamotors.com/enthusiasts/millions-of-miles

    The Model S SuperCharger miles driven is being tracked, but not posted. It displayed 8,284,624 miles on January 29, 2014 while viewing the “Supercharger Dashboard” in Hawthorne. http://flic.kr/p/jC2YZJ

    http://green.autoblog.com/2014/01/13/superchargers-power-tesla-model-s-evs-for-over-8m-miles/

    There does not appear to be any real time display of total Tesla miles for Model S. Since Tesla Motors gives the owner the option to not share data, the exact total might be difficult to determine. Tesla Motors has given a recent estimate on their Twitter page. “Owners have driven almost 200 million cumulative miles in Model S, enough to circle the Earth 8000 times!” (Posted: 12:28 PM – 21 Feb 2014)

    https://twitter.com/TeslaMotors/status/436960627240624128/photo/1


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    James McQuaid

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (7:00 am)

    I believe that the purpose of citing fleet statistics with tag lines like those in the infographic (i.e. “Walking the Great Wall of Chine 30,000 times”, “1 Trip to Mars from Earth”, etc.) is to convey the Volt’s reliability.


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    Gary L. Norton

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (7:07 am)

    Earth to the Moon always works for me, but 1674 doesn’t really roll off the tongue.


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    jegund

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (7:38 am)

    How timely,

    Me and Sparkie (congrats), per VoltStats.Net both passed 50,000 EV miles yesterday. For me, I estimate that’s at least 143 trips to the gas station I did not have to make over the almost 3 years of owning my Volt. That’s what I like.


  7. 7
    Raymondjram

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (7:39 am)

    Congratulations to all the Chevy Volt owners, especially for the pioneers who both the 2011 model year and ordered their vehicles unseen. I still cannot buy one, and in two visits to Florida recently I haven’t seen one yet, but I have high hopes that GM will produce new EREV models, such as a CUV, a larger sedan (the Impala would be perfect!) and a pick-up. My best opportunity would be getting a Spark EV probably for the 2016 model year if GM increases production (maybe at a local U.S. plant), increases its market area across the entire U.S. and its territories, and my local GM dealer (which sells the gas Spark) adds the EV to its inventory.

    Keep those electric motors humming!

    Raymond


  8. 8
    Dave G

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (8:04 am)

    Mark Z: Tesla Motors has given a recent estimate on their Twitter page. “Owners have driven almost 200 million cumulative miles in Model S …

    Great, thanks!

    For me, more EV miles is what its all about.

    As for the Leaf, the only comparison I’ve seen is this:
    Chevy Volt Owners Drive More Electric Miles Than Nissan Leaf Drivers: Why?
    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1088628_chevy-volt-owners-drive-more-electric-miles-than-nissan-leaf-drivers-why

    On average, owners of the Nissan Leaf battery-electric car cover 629 miles a month, while those who drive the Chevrolet Volt range-extended electric car go 60 percent further, logging 1,012 miles.

    Of those Volt miles, 75 percent are in electric mode using a battery charged from the grid, not the gasoline range extender…

    The data comes from the EV Project Vehicle Summary Report (April-June 2013) issued by the U.S. Department of Energy.

    (end quote)

    By the way, here are the links to the U.S. Department of Energy data:
    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/evproj/evproj_gmvolt_q22013.pdf
    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/evproj/evproj_nissanleaf_q22013.pdf


  9. 9
    Tony Broadway

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (8:08 am)

    jegund:
    How timely,

    Me and Sparkie (congrats), per VoltStats.Net both passed 50,000 EV miles yesterday. For me, I estimate that’s at least143 trips to the gas station I did not have to make over the almost 3 years of owning my Volt. That’s what I like.

    Have you noticed any difference in electric range?


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    'georgeBower

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (9:01 am)

    Dave G:
    Anyone have an idea of how this compares to other cars?How many total miles on all Leafs?How many total miles on Model S?How many total EV miles on Ford Energi and PiP models?

    Good question Dave. These charts I put together put the fuel savings in perspective. The chart shows how many MILLIONs of gallons of fuel are saved for the Volt in one year compared to the Tesla S and the Prius hatch back (and the new Ford F150 aluminum truck). The amount of fuel savings is listed in descending order. It shows that the Volt, even in the small numbers now produced has a profound effect on fuel savings. Imagine what the effect could be if GM got serious about selling this powertrain.

    Slide1_zps13a94bea.jpg

    Slide2_zpse71619af.jpg


  11. 11
    Charlie H

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (10:32 am)

    ‘georgeBower,

    Your estimates for fuel savings in the F-150 are probably overstated:

    http://www.drivealuminum.org/research-resources/PDF/Research/2008/2008-Ricardo-Study.pdf

    See page 23. If they reduce weight by 10% and downsize the engine to match, fuel economy improvement will be in the range of 6-7%.

    Still, the one thing Lutz was right about was that improving the fuel economy of a guzzler by a few per cent has more impact than improving the fuel economy of a compact car by a few per cent. Of course, trading a guzzler for a compact car still has a remarkably large impact.

    Ford is said to be working on a hybrid system for pickup trucks. If they can pull that off at reasonable cost, it could have great impact on fuel consumption.

    The cheapest and fastest ways to reduce fuel consumption are still:

    - Car pool
    - use mass transit, if available
    - Downsize
    - Walk and bike (it’s healthier, anyway).


  12. 12
    'georgeBower

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (10:59 am)

    Charlie H:
    ‘georgeBower,

    Your estimates for fuel savings in the F-150 are probably overstated:

    http://www.drivealuminum.org/research-resources/PDF/Research/2008/2008-Ricardo-Study.pdf

    I assumed 700 lbs wt savings out of 5000 which is 14%. That gives 10% savings from the wt only. The other 10% is from going to the turbo 2.7 liter V6 which is probably a good assumption compared to the base engine used as a comparison that does not have DI OR stop start. The new 2.7 l turbo V6 is a very trick engine. It has start stop, direct injection and dual overhead cams with variable geometry as complicated as Toyota’s Prius engine so 10% is probably a good number there as well so 20% is NOT overstated.

    Speaking of Toyota. There was an article today in the WSJ stating that a fuel cell vehicle in Ca will receive TWICE as many Zero emissions credits in Ca as an electric car. Now you can see why Toyota is pushing FSV’s ……they get more government money. (I’d post the link but you need a subscription to read it).


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (11:32 am)

    ‘georgeBower: Speaking of Toyota. There was an article today in the WSJ stating that a fuel cell vehicle in Ca will receive TWICE as many Zero emissions credits in Ca as an electric car. Now you can see why Toyota is pushing FSV’s ……they get more government money. (I’d post the link but you need a subscription to read it).

    That’s mind boggling to me. What is the reason for giving twice the credits for FCV’s?


  14. 14
    Charlie H

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (11:38 am)

    ‘georgeBower,

    The 700lbs is from the biggest version of the F-150 (quad-cab, long-bed). You can figure 400-500lbs will be more typical.

    I didn’t realize the 2.7 would be quite so interesting. Given what you describe, yeah, 10% improvement from ICE improvements alone does not seem unreasonable. Still, bear in mind that these things don’t exactly add. For example, the vehicle mass doesn’t matter if it’s stopped, where the idle-stop feature comes into play and vehicle mass is less important at highway speeds, where aerodynamics plays a larger role.

    Still, if it works out to 15% overall, that would be very significant for Ford. Even 10% could be a significant competitive advantage.


  15. 15
    Raymondjram

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (11:43 am)

    Charlie H,

    You missed one: Move closer!

    I did this 37 years ago (from 21 miles to 6) and I saved thousands of dollars a year in gasoline and maintenance. And my GM vehicles last longer (average of twenty years).

    Raymond


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    Charlie H

     

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (11:46 am)

    ‘georgeBower,

    As for Toyota and the double ZEV H2 credits, that seems mildly nuts but CA probably had some reason.

    Bear in mind that these double ZEV H2 credits are not just for Toyota; any manufacturer could take advantage of them. If it was a huge economic incentive, we’d see other manufacturers working to get them.

    Not to be too snarky about it but GM likes to talk about its H2 FCV Equinoxes, so why let Toyota take the lead? I think the answer there is cost; Toyota has found some way to get the cost of the stack down to approachable levels and nobody else has yet achieved that.

    I would also guess that Toyota, like Tesla, has some plan for making H2 available enough that they think they can avoid having H2 fuelling look like an inconvenience, at least in CA. That will be the more interesting part of the project, can they do for H2 what Tesla did with Supercharging? Maybe Toyota is looking to make home refuelling feasible, too (Honda was working on that a while back).


  17. 17
    Raymondjram

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (11:47 am)

    ‘georgeBower,

    I also ask the same question since it takes more than twice the amount of energy to move the same weight with a fuel cell than with pure electricity. The fuel cell need energy to generate the hydrogen first!

    Someone in the California government is getting money “under the table” to promote hydrogen fuel cells!

    Raymond


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    'georgeBower

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (11:48 am)

    ClarksonCote: That’s mind boggling to me.What is the reason for giving twice the credits for FCV’s?

    I know. It makes no sense and there is no justifying link in the article. It’s definitely unfair if true. Perhaps the oil companies have their hands in it somehow….


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    Charlie H

     

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (11:56 am)

    Raymondjram: Charlie H, You missed one: Move closer! I did this 37 years ago (from 21 miles to 6) and I saved thousands of dollars a year in gasoline and maintenance. And my GM vehicles last longer (average of twenty years).Raymond

    I didn’t forget that, I left it off deliberately. There’s lots of reasons for where one lives. I’d like to see sprawl ended but that’s not going to happen any time fast and would involve replacing a lot of housing stock.

    I live less than 3 miles from where I work. On nice days, when I have the time, I walk. On nice days, when I have less time, I bike.


  20. 20
    Kent

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (11:56 am)

    Charlie H:
    ‘georgeBower,

    Bear in mind that these double ZEV H2 credits are not just for Toyota; any manufacturer could take advantage of them. If it was a huge economic incentive, we’d see other manufacturers working to get them.

    Please also bear in mind that the $7,500 EV credit is not just for the Volt and any manufacturer can also take advantage of this. You seem to harp on this quite a bit every time the EV credit is mentioned. Just sayin’…..


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (11:58 am)

    Charlie H:

    As for Toyota and the double ZEV H2 credits, that seems mildly nuts but CA probably had some reason.

    Raymonds “under the table” comment probably applies if this is really true about the FSV getting twice the credit as an EV.

    I’m totally speculating but I think these credits have something to do with GM’s lack of interest in expanding Voltec. They undoubtedly have figured out that they can do better economically by doing a pure EV than an EREV if you include the ZEV credits……..and Toyota has figured they can do WAYYYYY better by doing a FSV.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:14 pm)

    Charlie H: I didn’t forget that, I left it off deliberately. There’s lots of reasons for where one lives. I’d like to see sprawl ended but that’s not going to happen any time fast and would involve replacing a lot of housing stock.

    I live less than 3 miles from where I work. On nice days, when I have the time, I walk. On nice days, when I have less time, I bike.

    But you had to move somehow to where you are living now, so you did this step, too. Many car owners don’t see moving closer to their main destinations as a money saver. They prefer to search for better paying jobs or a raise and still spend that pay raise and more in gas and lost travel time while traveling farther. EV owners can get away from this as they save by not burning gas, especially in traffic jams.

    Raymond


  23. 23
    Charlie H

     

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:17 pm)

    ‘georgeBower: Raymonds “under the table” comment probably applies if this is really true about the FSV getting twice the credit as an EV.

    That’s basically an accustion of bribery, corruption or fraud. I guess I’d like to see a little supporting documentation. Here are several reasons why this might make sense for California:

    1. H2 development was lagging. They simply doubled the ZEV credits to see if they could further encourage it. The problem with supply-side incentives is that the government is essentially picking winners. I’ve remarked before that the Fed EV incentive of so much per KWH maxing out at 16KWH is very arbitrary. It encourages the development of medium size batteries and little else. If EV advancement is important, why does the Tesla get the same encouragement as the Volt? It encourages existing Li-Ion technology at exactly the same rate as it would a super-battery of many times the density. This encourages manufacturers to do safer “incentive harvesting” than to go out on a limb with something entirely new. From where we stand now, encouraging diversity of options is far better than picking a winner.

    2. CA’s focus has long been on Air Quality, not alternative fuels or particular tech per se. There may be some reason they think H2 furthers those goals more rapidly – or at least needs some encouragement to rule it out.

    3. It may be CA’s opinion that an H2 fast-refuelling infrastructure could be built out faster than an EV fast-charging infrastructure. This might help speed adoption of vehicles that address their real goal (Air Quality, remember?). Prior to Tesla’s introduction of the Supercharger network, I also thought EV charging was doomed to be hopelessly slow. I am impressed by the progress made but maybe CA thinks H2 is more promising or, given the length of time it takes to get things done in government, was of the opinion a few years ago that EV fast-charging was unrealistic.

    Now, maybe somebody’s on the take but there’s no proof of that. The Internet doesn’t exactly encourage critical thinking as much as it encourages mindless yahooism and conspiracy theories and it’s kind of unfortunate that, now that we have this tremendous information resource, people use it to reinforce and spread their prejudices and conspiracy theories rather than going after facts and doing some learning.

    In the case at hand, H2 can ultimately come from seawater and solar power. Using CH4 to make H2 is more readily accessible but it’s not the end goal for H2, either, and fossil fuel exploration companies don’t have a lock on H2 production.


  24. 24
    Raymondjram

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:18 pm)

    Kent: Please also bear in mind that the $7,500 EV credit is not just for the Volt and any manufacturer can also take advantage of this.You seem to harp on this quite a bit every time the EV credit is mentioned.Just sayin’…..

    I wish the credit was changed to a rebate and only applied for American brands (not “American assembled” like the Leaf) with the same minimum battery size so anyone who buys a Volt can get it. Too much of that tax credit is going to those who don’t deserve that money.

    Raymond


  25. 25
    Charlie H

     

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:23 pm)

    Raymondjram: But you had to move somehow to where you are living now, so you did this step, too. Many car owners don’t see moving closer to their main destinations as a money saver. They prefer to search for better paying jobs or a raise and still spend that pay raise and more in gas and lost travel time while traveling farther. EV owners can get away from this as they save by not burning gas, especially in traffic jams.Raymond

    Yes, I did. I moved 1200 miles. Once. Over twenty years ago. I’ve probably bought 10 cars since. People buy cars and trucks more often than they buy new houses.

    Say you did move to save money on gas. On a $200K house, closing costs and commissions will easily run to $20K. That would fuel a Prius for 20 years (longer if you had the money up front to invest in something that pays 2.5-3.5%). The payback in gas savings, even if you choose to drive a Silverado, is many years.

    That’s why “move” is not on my list.


  26. 26
    DonC

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:23 pm)

    I see SO MANY EVs where I am I’m wondering if they are having an effect on demand for gasoline. What’s funny is that I see more Model S than anything, but there are plenty of Volts and Leafs as well. Last week was something of a milestone. When stopped at a red light for a left turn three Volts came the other way. That’s three at one intersection in maybe a minute and a half.

    ‘georgeBower: Speaking of Toyota. There was an article today in the WSJ stating that a fuel cell vehicle in Ca will receive TWICE as many Zero emissions credits in Ca as an electric car. Now you can see why Toyota is pushing FSV’s ……they get more government money. (I’d post the link but you need a subscription to read it).

    I can’t read the article but I’m familiar with the issue. First we are talking about CARB credits not government money. No one gets any money. Toyota gets more CARB credits (which I guess could save them money if they don’t have to buy credits but that’s a different story). Second is that you get the fast fueling credits because slow fueling — like what you see with all EVs — is considered detrimental to wider consumer adoption of clean technologies.

    Every manufacturer can of course take advantage of these credits. You may remember when Elon Musk was doing a lot of demos about the battery swap for the Model S. Haven’t heard about that lately have you? The reason is that CARB changed the rules and battery swapping is no longer eligible for the fast fuel credits, and, since battery swapping is not really viable, Tesla has abandoned the idea.

    ‘georgeBower: These charts I put together put the fuel savings in perspective.

    Great charts. Not only do small changes in a huge seller make a big difference, increasing MPG for vehicles that have low MPG gives you a lot of bang. You’ll save more gallons of gas moving from a vehicle that gets 15 MPG to one that gets 20 MPG than you’d get moving from a Prius to BEV.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:26 pm)

    Why twice the credit for fuel cells? The commercial source for most hydrogen is natural gas. The carbon isn’t magically vanishing.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:26 pm)

    Charlie H quote:
    If EV advancement is important, why does the Tesla get the same encouragement as the Volt?

    I don’t think the Volt gets the same credit if you take into account both the ZEV credits AND the tax break of 7500$. This is what I was trying to get across as to why GM hasn’t been forthcoming on expanding Voltec. They think they can do better economically after all incentives by doing something else.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:28 pm)

    Charlie H,

    I am posting that comment on purpose because we need to release our national dependency on fuels, either oil, gasoline, or hydrogen, and sponsor more pure electric power. Fuel Cell vehicles are just a way to allow large corporate business to replace one fuel for another and keep the dependency and their billion-dollar incomes.

    California must sponsor more energy independence, and not fuel dependency to get cleaner air. So I insist that someone is being influenced to keep the dependency alive.

    Raymond


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:31 pm)

    steve:
    Why twice the credit for fuel cells?The commercial source for most hydrogen is natural gas.The carbon isn’t magically vanishing.

    see DonC’s #26. He says you get more ZEV credits from CARB for a FSV because of the faster fueling.


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    DonC

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:31 pm)

    Charlie H: That’s basically an accustion of bribery, corruption or fraud. I guess I’d like to see a little supporting documentation. Here are several reasons why this might make sense for California:

    I don’t know how long the fast fueling rule has been in effect but it’s been there for a long time. Again I haven’t read the article but if it’s suggesting anything untoward then just consider it more WSJ BS.

    I used to subscribe to the WSJ but it’s turned into something of a rag. Too much politics infused into the stories and too much opinion. The quality of the reporting in the paper is probably down two notches from where it was when Murdoch bought it.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:33 pm)

    DonC: I see SO MANY EVs where I am I’m wondering if they are having an effect on demand for gasoline.

    It’s negligible. I got a lot of downvotes a couple of months ago for pointing out that the increase in fuel sucked up by the increase in F-150 sales more than wiped out any reduction in demand but downvotes don’t prove my math incorrect.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:35 pm)

    Raymondjram: I am posting that comment on purpose because we need to release our national dependency on fuels, either oil, gasoline, or hydrogen, and sponsor more pure electric power.

    Ohhh… Well, as long as your motives are pure, please feel free to accuse anybody you like of any crime you care to think of.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:36 pm)

    Charlie H: Yes, I did. I moved 1200 miles. Once. Over twenty years ago. I’ve probably bought 10 cars since. People buy cars and trucks more often than they buy new houses.

    Say you did move to save money on gas. On a $200K house, closing costs and commissions will easily run to $20K. That would fuel a Prius for 20 years (longer if you had the money up front to invest in something that pays 2.5-3.5%). The payback in gas savings, even if you choose to drive a Silverado, is many years.

    That’s why “move” is not on my list.

    Buying a home is a question of tastes and needs. Besides, my newer home has increased in value over five time from its original cost, so moving closer actually made money for me, since the money I didn’t spend in gas paid for the new mortgage. After moving in 1977, I have bought only three new vehicles (all GM vehicles), and I still have two of them.

    Moving is still a real and logical solution.

    Raymond


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:39 pm)

    DonC: I don’t know how long the fast fueling rule has been in effect but it’s been there for a long time. Again I haven’t read the article but if it’s suggesting anything untoward then just consider it more WSJ BS.

    I was referring to the “under the table” comment by Raymond.

    As it happens, I don’t care for the WSJ, either.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:41 pm)

    Charlie H: Ohhh… Well, as long as your motives are pure, please feel free to accuse anybody you like of any crime you care to think of.

    Volt owners follow my messages here because they have reduced (and in some cases eliminated) their dependency on fuel. This is the purpose of buying an EV.

    Raymond


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    DonC

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:52 pm)

    Here’s a story about the fast fueling credits and how changes in the formula would effect Tesla from Jim Matavalli, one of the leading writers about green technologies. The point you want to focus on is that “The highest ZEV credit tier is reserved for cars that can go 300 miles on a charge (check for the Model S) and recharge 95 percent in 15 minutes.” http://www.plugincars.com/will-likely-loss-zev-credits-hurt-tesla-127916.html

    The regulations are all designed to encourage vehicles that consumers will want, and obviously cars with a good range and an ability to refuel quickly will be more desirable than vehicles with short ranges and long refueling times.

    I’m generally not a fan of CARB particularly when it comes to EREVs, but the fast fueling accelerator isn’t crazy and it’s not inherently unfair.


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    Shock Me

     

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (12:54 pm)

    Had my first Tesla Model S sighting today but then 80s Pontiac blocked my view. It was the unique upper rear brake light that caught my eye. For such a large car it sure flew off the line though when the light turned green.


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    Charlie H

     

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (1:06 pm)

    DonC: The regulations are all designed to encourage vehicles that consumers will want, and obviously cars with a good range and an ability to refuel quickly will be more desirable than vehicles with short ranges and long refueling times.

    Which makes considerable sense.

    On the other hand, and this is the problem with relying on regulations and supply-side incentives to change our energy course, we find that they can work against common sense. I refer to the BMW i3′s situation. I’d be interested in such a car (given it was available at a decent price) but the intentionally crippled range-extended range is ridiculous. I would not buy an RE-EV that, if I needed to take a long trip, required me to stop every 80 miles for fuel. I understand that CA requires the gas range for whatever incentive the i3 is aiming for to be less than or equal to the EV range. In CA’s big cities, if you get HOV access, the i3 might be a win but elsewhere that short range is a killer.


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    Charlie H

     

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (1:07 pm)

    Charlie H: It’s negligible. I got a lot of downvotes a couple of months ago for pointing out that the increase in fuel sucked up by the increase in F-150 sales more than wiped out any reduction in demand but downvotes don’t prove my math incorrect.

    And I got a downvote for that. Color me suprised.


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    `Noel Park

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (1:16 pm)

    Raymondjram: Someone in the California government is getting money “under the table” to promote hydrogen fuel cells!

    #17

    One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was:

    Never invent a conspiracy theory to explain something which can be explained by simple incompetence.”

    As to the 400 million miles:

    GO VOLT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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    Kent

     

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (1:17 pm)

    DonC:
    I see SO MANY EVs where I am I’m wondering if they are having an effect on demand for gasoline. What’s funny is that I see more Model S than anything, but there are plenty of Volts and Leafs as well.

    I was in Denver last week for five days (flew in Monday, out on Friday). The whole time I was there, I saw one Tesla and one Volt. That was it.


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    `Noel Park

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (1:19 pm)

    kdawg,

    You must really have your head down at work today, I don’t see you at all so far, LOL

    To answer your question from yesterday, we went the 2 years before changing the oil. There was still life left showing, but we decided what the heck and went ahead and did it.


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    'georgeBower

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (1:29 pm)

    DonC:
    Here’s a story about the fast fueling credits and how changes in the formula would effect Tesla from Jim Matavalli, one of the leading writers about green technologies.

    Good read DonC. Everyone should read this.

    As I said, I think CARBS ZEV credit structuring is having a big effect on GM’s decision (or lack thereof) to NOT expand the Voltec product line and also why Toyota has decided to go the FSV route.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (3:24 pm)

    steve:
    Why twice the credit for fuel cells?The commercial source for most hydrogen is natural gas.The carbon isn’t magically vanishing.

    True but because you are doing the reforming at a central location rather than individual tail pipes the CO2 can be more easily sequestered and used to gror algae which can then be used to produce carbon neutral bio-fuels.


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    hvacman

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (3:54 pm)

    bobchr: True but because you are doing the reforming at a central location rather than individual tail pipes the CO2 can be more easily sequestered and used to gror algae which can then be used to produce carbon neutral bio-fuels.

    And how many kg’s of CO2 are currently being sequestered at those NG-to-H2 reforming plants, much less growing algae for new fuel production? When is CO2 sequestering technology going to commercially applied anywhere? With current EV’s, electricity from CCGT power plants now operating produce a lot less CO2 than NG-H2 reforming. Add in hydro, wind, solar, bio-mass, and other carbon-neutral electric generation processes already in-place and it’s a landslide – EV’s are the hands-down greenhouse gas winner over H2. They are greener, cheaper to operate, less complex, and use existing energy distribution networks, even right at home….

    Hydrogen..I JUST don’t get it….


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    `Noel Park

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (3:59 pm)

    hvacman: Hydrogen..I JUST don’t get it….

    #46

    Me neither. +1


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    RobbertPatrison

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (5:32 pm)

    400 million miles sounds like a lot, until you put it in perspective:
    Total EV mile driven by all Volts together over 3 years: 400,000,000
    Total miles driven annually in the USA is 3 trillion: 3,000,000,000,000

    So that’s just 0.013% of the total miles driven. Assuming that EV driving saves 50% CO2 emissions (generous), this saved 0.006% in greenhouse emissions.

    Still a lot of work to do to make an impact. Volt is a great start and a great car/


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    Eco_Turbo

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (6:00 pm)

    RobbertPatrison,

    So true… Right now if everybody drove electric, charging stations would look like this border crossing station. But you have to start somewhere.

    25zq9ht.jpg


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (6:17 pm)

    bobchr: True but because you are doing the reforming at a central location rather than individual tail pipes the CO2 can be more easily sequestered and used to gror algae which can then be used to produce carbon neutral bio-fuels.

    Someone should write an article about the GOOD things about fuel cells. After all if you need some heavy lifting you need some fuel density as compared to electric. As much as the general opinion is negative here about fuel cells, I think they have some good apps, like big trucks as you say.

    I still think my riding lawn mower fuel cell vehicle is a good app. People think I’m crazy but if you think about it, the RC cars is where fuel cells are the most economical right now (you can get solid fuel) so a lawn mower would be the next step up.

    Also look on the bright side, the oil companies will have something to do.

    I predict fuel cells will happen.


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    Thomas J. Thias ~ Selling Volts At Sundance

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    Feb 25th, 2014 (6:32 pm)

    Not so fast, Eco_Turbo,

    —————–]=

    Remember, with north of 1.5 billion 110/120V AC outlets in North America – ALL EV’s REFUEL THIS WAY – we have been EV Charging ready for decades!

    Oh, ya, and for bout a buck a day!

    Best-

    Thomas J. Thias


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (6:53 pm)

    Thomas J. Thias ~ Selling Volts At Sundance,

    A charging station would be that full just with people driving farther than 300 miles in a day, if they drove all electric. Volt is the perfect bridge technology for today.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (8:31 pm)

    ‘georgeBower: Someone should write an article about the GOOD things about fuel cells. After all if you need some heavy lifting you need some fuel density as compared to electric. As much as the general opinion is negative here about fuel cells, I think they have some good apps, like big trucks as you say.

    I still think my riding lawn mower fuel cell vehicle is a good app. People think I’m crazy but if you think about it, the RC cars is where fuel cells are the most economical right now (you can get solid fuel) so a lawn mower would be the next step up.

    Also look on the bright side, the oil companies will have something to do.

    I predict fuel cells will happen.

    Here’s a link to an old PBS documentary, http://www.pbs.org/saf/1506/features/myths.htm


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (8:45 pm)

    `Noel Park: kdawg,
    You must really have your head down at work today, I don’t see you at all so far, LOL
    To answer your question from yesterday, we went the 2 years before changing the oil. There was still life left showing, but we decided what the heck and went ahead and did it.

    Hi Noel. Yes, crazy busy at work right now. I checked the article earlier. 2 years is great. I think I should be able to do that. I just hit 14K miles on my Volt today, but unfortunately it was while driving 200 miles (RT). I burned 3 gallons of gas, and my lifetime MPG just dropped below 200. Doh!


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (8:54 pm)

    ‘georgeBower: As I said, I think CARBS ZEV credit structuring is having a big effect on GM’s decision (or lack thereof) to NOT expand the Voltec product line and also why Toyota has decided to go the FSV route.

    I sorta wish the Federal government would just raise the gas tax instead of using incentives.

    * The $ should be put to good use. Don’t want to debate the gov wastes money.
    * Don’t want to debate that this hurts the poor, BS.
    * Don’t bother with the argument that shipping costs & costs of goods will go up.

    A higher gas tax will put competitive pressure on all manufacturers to create more fuel-efficient solutions. And it will put pressure on consumers to buy the best ones for the $. This is probably better than every manufacturer trying to gear their designs to maximize the benefits of some law.

    If the goal is cleaner air & energy independence, then increase the sin-tax on oil.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (9:05 pm)

    OT: Tesla stock up 14% today. Closed at $248/share. Dang.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (9:08 pm)

    Dave G: Anyone have an idea of how this compares to other cars? How many total miles on all Leafs? How many total miles on Model S? How many total EV miles on Ford Energi and PiP models?

    MarkZ already mentioned Tesla’s tweet about 200 million, but you may be interested in this article.

    http://insideevs.com/the-top-two-selling-evs-have-now-logged-over-one-billion-miles-their-story-so-far/

    The Nissan LEAF just turned 700,000,000KM or 435,000,000 miles. The Chevy Volt has logged 400,000,000 electric miles and 640,000,000 overall. These two pioneering EVs have now logged over a billion miles.


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    Feb 25th, 2014 (9:13 pm)

    hvacman: And how many kg’s of CO2 are currently being sequestered at those NG-to-H2 reforming plants, much less growing algae for new fuel production? When is CO2 sequestering technology going to commercially applied anywhere? With current EV’s, electricity from CCGT power plants now operating produce a lot less CO2 than NG-H2 reforming. Add in hydro, wind, solar, bio-mass, and other carbon-neutral electric generation processes already in-place and it’s a landslide –EV’s are the hands-down greenhouse gas winner over H2.They are greener, cheaper to operate, less complex, and use existing energy distribution networks, even right at home….

    Hydrogen..I JUST don’t get it….

    One thing to note Hydrogen fuel cells are batteries that are just fed by an external fuel. Check out this link to a PBS documentary http://www.pbs.org/saf/1506/features/myths.htm
    Also google this corporation; GreenFuel Technologies Corporation
    and finally there was a Yahoo link to a newly developed process that uses high pressure and cooking to extract oil from algae in a matter of hours. It is on my computer at work which I will post tomorrow. The reason why it hasn’t been done is the same reasons why mining companies choose polluting inefficient means to extract minerals from the ground, commercial laziness and irresponsibility. Since 2004 water treatment plants in Seattle have been using Solid Oxide fuel cells to burn the methane produce by anerobic bacteria used in the digester phase of water treatment. There fuel cells produce enough electricity to power the whole plant. Before the methane was collected and burned off like it was in oil fields and like they are now doing in the North Dakota. Check out the Hydrogen economy in Iceland where they use a lot of Geothermal as their base energy stock. Iceland has no oil fields but they seem to have a cost effective Hydrogen economy.


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    Feb 26th, 2014 (6:10 am)

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/algae-crude-oil-less-hour-120108380.html here’s a link from Yahoo finance outlining a process of converting algae to crude in about an hour. If the process is scalable we could see a lot of oil fields and fracking operations transition over or go out of business.


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    Feb 27th, 2014 (12:55 pm)

    Charlie H: Still, the one thing Lutz was right about was that improving the fuel economy of a guzzler by a few per cent has more impact than improving the fuel economy of a compact car by a few per cent. Of course, trading a guzzler for a compact car still has a remarkably large impact.

    I believe he said beats improving the small car by double digit percentages.

    ‘georgeBower: Someone should write an article about the GOOD things about fuel cells.

    You could do that George. I won’t do it, yet. If there was an optimized system for refueling, I would be convincing someone to pay three times as much as using electrons in an EV, cutting off their path to be energy independent with solar panels, and tying them to the whims of large corporate fuel providers for years. Can’t do it :)