Aug 23

Volt-based Monza to be revealed at Frankfurt

 

By Phillippe Crowe

GM’s European division, Opel/Vauxhall, will unveil the  Monza Concept at the Frankfurt Motor Show next month.

The Monza, according to GM, tis he first car to feature cutting-edge LED projection infotainment and will present an evolution of the Ampera’s revolutionary powertrain.

The Frankfurt auto show runs Sept 10-22.
 

“The Monza Concept represents the Opel/Vauxhall car of tomorrow,” said Dr. Karl-Thomas Neumann, Opel/Vauxhall CEO. “On one hand, it embodies everything that already characterizes Opel/Vauxhall – precision engineering combined with innovative technologies wrapped in captivating design. In addition, it addresses the themes that will be the development-focus of the next generation of Opel/Vauxhall cars: maximum connectivity and optimum efficiency. Connectivity is demonstrated by a trailblazing LED projection technology for instrument and infotainment displays. Efficiency comes in many ways, with lightweight design, optimal use of interior space, and advanced powertrain technology. The Monza Concept is based on increasing electrification of the automobile in everyday driving, from range-extender to fuel cell. And as far as styling is concerned, we are expressing pure efficiency in a new, lean and athletic interpretation of our typical sculptural shapes. The Monza Concept is nothing less than our vision of the automotive future.”

Monza is a name that has been used previously for an Opel model. The original Monza made its world premiere at the IAA back in 1977; it was a large coupe with a six-cylinder engine. It went into production as the Vauxhall Royale in the UK, and was sold until 1982.

GM said the new Monza Concept has a beautifully shaped hood with the distinctive center fold continues the tradition of the Monza front with the typical Vauxhall crease. The large boomerang-shaped air intakes in front of the wheel arches complement the elegant chrome bar that holds the Griffin badge.

VX_13050_OpelMonzaConcept_DirectFront_Open3-668
 

With the Monza Concept, the designers in Brit, Mark Adams’ team introduce a new interpretation of the sculptural design that first went into production with the Insignia. Distinctive lines, high-precision design and perfect sweeping contours remain the core of the evolving design philosophy.

“This is the next bold step along our journey into the future, but at the same time we show that we have established a consistent design in which people can build trust,” said Mark Adams, Head of Opel/Vauxhall Design.

Efficiency and connectivity are the main focus for development in the next generation of Vauxhall cars. The Monza Concept is said by GM to offer a fascinating preview of these developments.

In the Monza, drivers will no longer find the conventional individual, separate monitors that display different information; instead, they face a wide, sculpted dashboard that sweeps from door to door, and is used as a single projection surface. GM said information and decorative elements are displayed on the surface, which the driver can customize according to his needs, taste or mood.

A total of 18 LED projectors create a continuous, adaptable multi-functional display – the first car in the world to feature this. Already established in the events arena, this technology has caused a sensation at major occasions such as the Queen’s Jubilee, and Opel/Vauxhall designers were first to think of implementing it in a passenger car.

VX_13051_OpelMonzaConcept_Rear-668

This also applies to the comprehensive smartphone connectivity in the Monza Concept. With three worlds of connectivity – called ME, US and ALL – drivers can focus solely on their driving experience, or get in touch with friends and family or even connect to the whole internet community. With ME the infotainment system virtually disconnects the drivers’ smartphone and prioritizes the information relevant for the driving experience. US enables the passengers of the Monza Concept to connect with a group of selected people such as friends and family members: these can log-in to the car’s infotainment system with their own communication device and exchange information, music and images, chat and make appointments, etc. ALL goes beyond US. It allows the driver and virtually the whole outside world to connect. Drivers can for example spontaneously share their planned route online over a tablet or smartphone so that people can catch a ride with them along the way – enabling a new kind of instant car-sharing. With this trailblazing infotainment and connectivity technology, the Monza Concept shows how far ahead Opel/Vauxhall’s designers and engineers are thinking, so that the next generation of cars make their contribution to a harmonious, connected society.

The Monza Concept is also said to give a preview of the advancements in “Car-to-Car” and “Car-to-X” systems. By comprehensively connecting road users, intercommunication can be enhanced, as can safety, because dangerous traffic situations are registered earlier and more accurately than before.

Powertrain

 

GM revealed the Monza Concept is based on a modular design to allow highest-possible flexibility when selecting a propulsion system.

For the Monza Concept set to be displayed at Frankfurt, engineers conceived an electric drive with a CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) range extender – a further development of the Volt’s technology. The new-generation three-cylinder 1.0 SIDI turbo – which also makes its premiere at Frankfurt – takes over the task as range extender. But it does so with natural gas instead of gasoline, further improving the car’s CO2 footprint.

VX_13049_OpelMonzaConcept_Rear3-668

“We have a clear vision of how Opel/Vauxhall cars will be in the future, and we have a clear strategy of how we will achieve this goal. The Monza Concept gives this strategy an unmistakable identity,” said Dr. Karl-Thomas Neumann. “It embodies what our customers can expect from us within the next years, not only in terms of design, but also in terms of efficiency and connectivity between drivers and the internet community. So it already anticipates future everyday automotive life, and serves as an important source of inspiration on the road to that destination.”

This entry was posted on Friday, August 23rd, 2013 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 113


  1. 1
    Mark Z

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:14 am)

    CNG: very popular in many locations. It’s exciting to see a division of GM display a design this advanced. Now build it and don’t listen to negative management who reject this brilliant design. If you don’t build it, other manufacturers will be inspired to bring a similar design to market. Please bring this concept to the LA Auto Show to encourage the automotive designers in California!


  2. 2
    Richard Joash Tan

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:23 am)

    what is the first (and second) Volt-based concept in europe? I mean, the exterior design looks so familiar


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    bobchr

     

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:41 am)

    CNG can also be more easily reformed to produce H2 to power fuel cells. A very forward projecting auto if you will excuse the pun.


  4. 4
    GSP

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:49 am)

    CNG is more widely available in Europe.

    Availability in North America is increasing as well, since CNG is getting popular with truckers due to the higher cost of Diesel fuel, almost twice as expensive as CNG.

    GSP


  5. 5
    Taser54

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (7:19 am)

    Great looking concept. Personally, I would ditch the gull wings on a production model. make CNG an option.

    looks like an update Opel flextreme concept.


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    Loboc

     

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (7:57 am)

    GM also made a Monza based on Vega. A V-8 in a Vega!


  7. 7
    Raymondjram

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (8:05 am)

    Jeff, this is not historically correct:
    “Monza is a name that has been used previously for an Opel model. The original Monza made its world premiere at the IAA back in 1977; it was a large coupe with a six-cylinder engine. It went into production as the Vauxhall Royale in the UK, and was sold until 1982.”

    The first Monza that I knew was the 1975 Chevrolet Monza, based on the Vega H-body:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Monza
    http://monza.homestead.com/monza.html
    http://chevyvega.wikia.com/wiki/Chevrolet_Monza
    http://ucapusa.com/car_info_chevrolet_monza.htm

    It was a sports version of the Vega, had different body versions, was the first production car with square headlights, and was the smallest Chevrolet with a V8 engine. It was one of the first with emission controls, and the HEI distributor (with electronic switching replacing the mechanical breaker points). After the model was cancelled, it was replaced by the Cavalier.
    This is one descrption that I like:
    “The Chevrolet Monza, introduced for 1975, was basically a Chevrolet Vega dressed for a night at the disco.”:
    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/chevrolet-monza.htm
    I had the 1975 Chevrolet Vega Kammback Wagon, so I knew well that H-body. I did go to the local “disco” in it with my future wife.

    Raymond


  8. 8
    Jim I

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (8:12 am)

    And just how much of that look and technology would make it into the production model?

    Is anybody guessing on a price?

    Here is mine, if they build it as shown: $90K

    C-5277


  9. 9
    Jim I

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (8:15 am)

    Monza name goes clear back to the 1960 Corvair. My dad had a 1961 model….

    C-5277


  10. 10
    Nelson

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (8:21 am)

    “A total of 18 LED projectors create a continuous, adaptable multi-functional display – the first car in the world to feature this. Already established in the events arena, this technology has caused a sensation at major occasions such as the Queen’s Jubilee, and Opel/Vauxhall designers were first to think of implementing it in a passenger car.”

    First? I don’t think so. See what the children do to their Dads dash in the below Feb. 3, 2012 video link.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZkHpNnXLB0

    And going back further to Feb. 7, 2011 pay close attention at the 2 minute mark in this video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cf7IL_eZ38
    That’s what a dash should look like, not an oversized iPad.
    Are you listening Elon?

    NPNS!
    Volt#671


  11. 11
    Neromanceres

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (8:23 am)

    Love it!

    I think running CNG makes a lot of sense as the next step for Voltec. Now all fuel would be domestic sourced.


  12. 12
    Raymondjram

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (8:34 am)

    A little off-topic for future GM vehicle watchers:

    The 2016 Chevrolet Cruze has been seen (a preview of the next gen Volt):
    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1082324_2016-chevrolet-cruze-spy-shots#100437411

    Personally I don’t like it that much.

    Raymond


  13. 13
    Bobc

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (8:37 am)

    Nelson:
    “A total of 18 LED projectors create a continuous, adaptable multi-functional display – the first car in the world to feature this. Already established in the events arena, this technology has caused a sensation at major occasions such as the Queen’s Jubilee, and Opel/Vauxhall designers were first to think of implementing it in a passenger car.”

    First?I don’t think so.See what the children do to their Dads dash in the below Feb. 3, 2012 video link.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZkHpNnXLB0

    And going back further to Feb. 7, 2011 pay close attention at the 2 minute mark in this video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cf7IL_eZ38
    That’s what a dash should look like, not an oversized iPad.
    Are you listening Elon?

    NPNS!
    Volt#671

    I think you’re confusing simulation with actual implementation. Corning didn’t actually do all those things they were showing possibilities. What you are saying would be like crediting the Star Trek series with inventing the flip phone cell phone.


  14. 14
    Bobc

     

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (8:53 am)

    Neromanceres,

    Also keep in mind that since CNG is mostly methane it is practically a renewable resource. It is generated with practically any decaying bio-matter, in water treatment plants using anaerobic digesters, and hog farms and cow patties. Not to mention cow stomachs. ID like to see a standardization around a 5 gallon rectangular cassette system that could be swappable in a series of racks in behind a flip up body panel. The cassettes could be sold and refilled at gas stations or anywhere that now sells CNG. To refuel simply put the credit card in the dispenser and pull a filled cassette out and place your empty cassette back in the dispenser to be refilled . 10 gallons in 20 seconds.


  15. 15
    Raymondjram

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:05 am)

    Bobc:
    Neromanceres,

    Also keep in mind that since CNG is mostly methane it is practically a renewable resource. It is generated with practically any decaying bio-matter, in water treatment plants using anaerobic digesters, and hog farms and cow patties. Not to mention cow stomachs. ID like to see a standardization around a 5 gallon rectangular cassette system that could be swappable in a series of racks in behind a flip up body panel. The cassettes could be sold and refilled at gas stations or anywhere that now sells CNG. To refuel simply put the credit card in the dispenser and pull a filled cassette out and place your empty cassette back in the dispenser to be refilled . 10 gallons in 20 seconds.

    So if we had some filters and pipes installed in the air conditioning system of the Congress buildings, we can get plenty of gas that has been paid by the taxpayers, and use it to power our future hybrids?

    Raymond


  16. 16
    Taser54

     

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:06 am)

    Raymondjram,

    That’s not the final front end. Chevy has moved away from the bar-type front end.

    Back to the topic at hand. Here is a real picture of the front of the Monza http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2013/07/opel-monza-bright-628.jpg


  17. 17
    Nelson

     

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:07 am)

    Bobc,

    “First to think of implementing” and “first to implement” are two different phrases. Although no monetary compensation was awarded to the creators of Star Trek, that we know of, many (like yourself) have made the acknowledgment that the similarities between the flip phone and Star Trek communicator exist. That acknowledgment sounds like a credit to me.

    NPNS!
    Volt#671


  18. 18
    George S. Bower

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:09 am)

    Well at least GM is up to something. I can’t say that a CNG range extender is all that exciting. I’m more interested in the electric part. Very few details here. They did make a comment about “optimal use of interior space”. Perhaps it will be carbon composite. Maybe they will put the batteries in the floor.


  19. 19
    steve

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:12 am)

    Raymondjram:
    Jeff, this is not historically correct:
    “Monza is a name that has been used previously for an Opel model. The original Monza made its world premiere at the IAA back in 1977; it was a large coupe with a six-cylinder engine. It went into production as the Vauxhall Royale in the UK, and was sold until 1982.”

    The first Monza that I knew was the 1975 Chevrolet Monza, based on the Vega H-body:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Monza
    http://monza.homestead.com/monza.html
    http://chevyvega.wikia.com/wiki/Chevrolet_Monza
    http://ucapusa.com/car_info_chevrolet_monza.htm

    It was a sports version of the Vega, had different body versions, was the first production car with square headlights, and was the smallest Chevrolet with a V8 engine. It was one of the first with emission controls, and the HEI distributor (with electronic switching replacing the mechanical breaker points). After the model was cancelled, it was replaced by the Cavalier.
    This is one descrption that I like:
    “The Chevrolet Monza, introduced for 1975, was basically a Chevrolet Vega dressed for a night at the disco.”:
    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/chevrolet-monza.htm
    I had the 1975 Chevrolet Vega Kammback Wagon, so I knew well that H-body. I did go to the local “disco” in it with my future wife.

    Raymond

    There was also the Corvair Monza model back in the 1960s. Monza isn’t exactly a new name.


  20. 20
    George S. Bower

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:20 am)

    Raymondjram:
    A little off-topic for future GM vehicle watchers:

    The 2016 Chevrolet Cruze has been seen (a preview of the next gen Volt):
    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1082324_2016-chevrolet-cruze-spy-shots#100437411

    Personally I don’t like it that much.

    Raymond

    Good catch Raymond. It is always hard to tell what a car will look like with camo on but I think it may look pretty good. They make reference to Tru140S. kdawg has mentioned that concept before as a baseline for a 200 mile GM EV and I also like that styling.

    Tru_140S_Concept_zpsbee82dab.jpg


  21. 21
    Dave G

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:24 am)

    …yawn… Another concept car that will never make it to production.

    For cars, CNG make little sense to me, as it would require a whole new infrastructure, and still have issues with sustainability and carbon output.

    For 18-wheel trucks, CNG makes sense near-term, as a stop-gap transitional solution. This would require much less infrastructure and help decrease the effects of peak oil.


  22. 22
    Mark

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:26 am)

    And NO side mirrors… Finally ! No more wondering if the daughter is going clip the mirrors trying shoehorn it into the garage. I would buy it just for that ( and its looks ) alone.


  23. 23
    Texas

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:27 am)

    This gets me wondering what the new Tesla model will look like. If anyone can get it to look as good as this concept car, it will be Elon Musk and friends.


  24. 24
    MotoEV

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:41 am)

    I wish GM would be more forthcoming about their BEV, EREV, Hybrid strategy

    Examples:

    1) Create a Chevy sub-brand dedicated to BEV / EREV with the next three products or
    2) Spell out more clearly the plan to offer the Hybrid option across all the car products or
    3) State the plan to create niche EREV/BEV products when an opportunity arises

    I would be more eager to consider a GM product if I could see a clear strategy and fewer concepts and marketing blurbs that provide plenty of wiggle room. If GM stated in 2016 along side the Volt sedan would be a Volt CUV, I would become a ‘true believer’.

    For example, when Honda shows a product concept at an auto show, the final production version is not far behind.


  25. 25
    pjwood

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:50 am)

    CNG vs. Coal means a 50% reduction in CO2 emission, in electricity, but the units burning oil produce at about the same .5lb per kwh rate. So, CO2 gains may also be nominal in a car (all I’m sayin’).

    Worse, electric/CNG would have to be the biggest non-starter on infrastructure, in US. Very few stations, though I’ve read Civic CNG owners claiming about the same $.03-.04 as electric drivers. I know at the home heating meter it can get marked up 200-400% over the Henry Hub price (1mmbtu = ~10 therms), making it much less economic when you run the same $/mile numbers, away from the limited CNG filling stations that exist.

    Amorphous CNG tanks for passenger cars are in development. Their success at >3000 pound compression rates has yet to be seen. EV’s will easily keep their lead, trucks will go CNG/LNG, and the narrative that “CNG would have been better”, in psgr cars will always be there. Just my prediction. The oil co’s, who have NG assets, make better margins on gasoline.


  26. 26
    Jeff Cobb

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:54 am)

    Raymondjram: Jeff, this is not historically correct:
    “Monza is a name that has been used previously for an Opel model. The original Monza made its world premiere at the IAA back in 1977; it was a large coupe with a six-cylinder engine. It went into production as the Vauxhall Royale in the UK, and was sold until 1982.”

    The first Monza that I knew was the 1975 Chevrolet Monza, based on the Vega H-body:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Monza
    http://monza.homestead.com/monza.html
    http://chevyvega.wikia.com/wiki/Chevrolet_Monza
    http://ucapusa.com/car_info_chevrolet_monza.htm

    Hi Raymond,

    I hear you on that. Not sure at the moment the discrepancy, but Phil nearly copied that bit of history straight out of the GM/Opel official press release. It reads as follows:

    An Opel Monza already made its world premiere at the IAA back in 1977: it was a large coupé with a silky smooth-running six-cylinder engine. The Monza was in production until 1986 and has long since belonged to the elite circle of iconic cars. The new Monza Concept now follows in its wheel-tracks …

    SOURCE:

    http://media.opel.com/content/media/intl/en/opel/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/intl/en/2013/opel/08-21-monza-concept.html

    NOTE: I added the video to the above article too …

    Have a nice weekend,

    Jeff


  27. 27
    Steverino

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (10:21 am)

    Yawn. I’m so over concept cars. This is yet another in a long line of concept cars that will never see the light of day. Car companies love to roll these out at car shows, but what rolls down the street is a mere shadow of the concept.


  28. 28
    George S. Bower

     

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (10:23 am)

    pjwood:

    Amorphous CNG tanks for passenger cars are in development.

    I’ve shown comaprison photos of pure EV skateboard designs with the Volt before. Adding a range extender and all the associated clap trap like gas tanks makes for a really bad package.

    Putting a CNG tank in Voltec seems like a bad idea from a packaging point of view.


  29. 29
    DonC

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (10:32 am)

    Looks like a cooler version of the Model S, especially from the front. It would be great if they’d built something like this, sans the silly doors of course.

    I find it funny that people talk about there not being any CNG fueling stations. My friends who have CNG vehicles fuel at home, avoiding those pesky trips to the filling station. Moreover, at the moment there are 602 CNG fueling stations in the US. In a couple of years there will probably be a couple of thousand more. Compare that to the 18 — I repeat 18 — Tesla supercharger stations which are currently in operation, or for that matter the promised 200 when the stations are completely built out — and you begin to realize both how paltry the supercharger network will be and how relatively robust CNG fueling will be. For example, right now there is one charging station between LA and Chicago but 39 CNG fueling stations.

    You can find the CNG stations on the map: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_locations.html

    The big problem with CNG is where do you put the tank. CNG is not nearly as energy dense as gasoline or diesel.

    George S. Bower: I can’t say that a CNG range extender is all that exciting.

    If you lived in CA you might have a different opinion. That CNG range extender would get you a white HOV sticker rather than the green one. Not only does the white sticker look better, it gets you into the HOV lane for a very long time!


  30. 30
    Nelson

     

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (10:32 am)

    pjwood: CNG vs. Coal means a 50% reduction in CO2 emission, in electricity, but the units burning oil produce at about the same .5lb per kwh rate. So, CO2 gains may also be nominal in a car (all I’m sayin’).

    Has anyone read which type of burning (coal, CNG or oil) consumes the most oxygen per BTU produced per hour?
    How’s that relevant you ask?
    Humans need oxygen.

    NPNS!
    Volt#671


  31. 31
    Nelson

     

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (10:39 am)

    Steverino,

    I agree. I wonder if a concept car is funded by the R&D budget, or does it get funded under another heading? If it doesn’t make it to production (like the Volt did) it’s a total waste of money.

    NPNS!
    Volt#671


  32. 32
    Bobc

     

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (11:30 am)

    Nelson:
    Bobc,

    “First to think of implementing” and “first to implement” are two different phrases.Although no monetary compensation was awarded to the creators of Star Trek, that we know of, many (like yourself) have made the acknowledgment that the similarities between the flip phone and Star Trek communicator exist.That acknowledgment sounds like a credit to me.

    NPNS!
    Volt#671

    Vast difference between visualization and execution, just because you have a great idea doesn’t mean you have any idea about it’s execution. Corning had no resources to execute tha projection dash board, otherwise they would would have done it answer sold it to car companies. Credit for a concept and credit for development and execution are vastly different. Plus this was way out of Cornings comfort zone and business plan. What they could provide is a tool to get you ere. He’ll back when I was younger having e to paint wall and houses were a chore. I thought of what it would be like to have walls that were in essence giant TV screens hat were either monochrome or a mural scene like the holo deck in Star Trek but implementation of such an idea was way beyond he tools available and the resources I had. He’ll the Internet had not even been preeminent yet. This is back in the ARPAnet days.


  33. 33
    George S. Bower

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (11:47 am)

    DonC:

    The big problem with CNG is where do you put the tank.

    Agreed DonC. It is a very poor choice for an EREV where one needs to find room for lots of stuff.

    This concept should have been a 200 mile EV.


  34. 34
    George S. Bower

     

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (11:49 am)

    DonC:

    Not only does the white sticker look better, it gets you into the HOV lane for a very long time!

    Agree again. Those HOV stickers are really an eye sore.

    I suppose another way to get a white one would be to buy a Leaf…wink, wink :)


  35. 35
    hvacman

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (11:50 am)

    “The new-generation three-cylinder 1.0 SIDI turbo – which also makes its premiere at Frankfurt – takes over the task as range extender. ”

    Another clue that the new 1.0L 3-cyl. engine will be the Gen 2 Voltec range extender.

    I hate concept designs – As much as they think they are “advanced, most concept designers are still stuck in the 20th-century ICE-era, incorporating things like front air intake scoops (largely non-functional) that will be one of the first things axed to improve Cd once the engineers get the model in the wind-tunnel. Truly advanced concept designers will be thinking about that, learning about aerodynamics, and proposing innovative body designs optimized for the 21st century.

    re: CNG tanks – I agree with other posts above that the combination of a decent-sized battery and a bulky CNG tank with any range in a small passenger vehicle will be a non-starter, even with a skateboard concept. Tesla has raised the bar for usable automotive storage space. Once they actually build a working version of one of these, this will become obvious.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (11:53 am)

    Dave G:

    For cars, CNG make little sense to me, as it would require a whole new infrastructure, and still have issues with sustainability and carbon output.

    For 18-wheel trucks, CNG makes sense near-term, as a stop-gap transitional solution.This would require much less infrastructure and help decrease the effects of peak oil.

    Good point to consider, however when one realizes how infrequent one would need to refuel, the need for CNG infrastructure beyond what currently exists becomes less of a concern with EREVs. A greater battery range than the gen 1 Volt would definitely help mitigate things.


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    Raymondjram

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (12:11 pm)

    steve: There was also the Corvair Monza model back in the 1960s. Monza isn’t exactly a new name.

    I heard that name before, but I still believe that the 1975 Monza was the first to use it as a full model name, not a model style. That is what I posted first, since the article is about an Opel Monza model.

    Raymond


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (12:25 pm)

    dude, you are in fantasyland. unfortunately, the rest of us have to live in the real world…

    BEVs are just not practical, even with 200 miles of range. that’s because if you live in minnesota, where you have to run the heat during the winter, you are going to get a lot less than 200 miles. and then what happens when the range runs out? fast charge? that gets you maybe 100 miles or range or less with a 20-30 minute charge. that’s a car for local driving. but even at that, it could get annoying because with a gas powered car, a fill up takes less than 10 minutes and gets you at least 200 miles of range even for a fairly large car. so, if a person fills up with a gasoline car 2 or 3 times a week (for someone who does a lot of driving), the 20-30 minutes/week that they spend at gas stations turns into as much as 90 minutes at fast charging stations. battery swap, while faster, is a high capital proposition and would be very expensive, particularly if you wanted some means to get your battery back.

    in other words, range extension is the only practical way to introduce an EV into the real world market. tesla is largely about marketing of the cult of elon musk – he is trying to be the steve jobs of transportation. fair enough, but marketing and PR isn’t going to be of much use to me when i am trying to get from pointA to pointB. that the ampera is popular in europe says more to me about the extent to which people in europe take a more practical view of transportation. by contrast, some of the posters who post here seem more concerned with the crazy notion of wanting a “high performance” electric vehicle. the problem is, when you consider the cost of your time, wasteful energy usage with EVs is more expensive than it is with gasoline powered automobiles.

    for me, i like the design of the Volt. if i didn’t have one, i would want one; i like the exterior design, i like the dashboard layout (but i used to own a saab 9000 and liked the dashboard layout of that car); i like the small size of the car; the only thing that i don’t like about it is that the sight lines are not so great from the driving position. it would be great to get 100 miles of range but even at that, since i have a 120v outlet, i wouldn’t be able to recharge 100 miles of range in an overnight charge, so i am ok with the 37 mile range (although this time of the year i am actually getting close to 50 miles) in the interest of a lower price.

    George S. Bower: Agreed DonC. It is a very poor choice for an EREV where one needs to find room for lots of stuff.

    This concept should have been a 200 mile EV.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (1:01 pm)

    Correction – Oil used in electric looks to have CO2 closer to something between coal and natural gas. I also blew the NG stat (S/B ~1.0lb/kwh). I posted too quick thinking 1,000/ton=.5, instead of 1,000lbs/1,000kwh. Anyway, at least that would imply a material improvement from gasoline, to NG. The numbers in electricity vary, mostly from old to newer plant efficiency, and oil’s numbers aren’t considered as much, these days, because price has lead to it hardly ever factor in.


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    Nelson

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (1:02 pm)

    Bobc: Credit for a concept and credit for development and execution are vastly different.

    I agree with that statement. Probably why credit for execution comes with monetary compensation. i.e. Jules Verne is a good example. From Wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Verne
    Under: Scientific influence
    [The pioneering submarine designer Simon Lake credited his inspiration to Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea,[105] and his autobiography begins “Jules Verne was in a sense the director-general of my life.”]

    NPNS!
    Volt#671


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (1:19 pm)

    no comment: BEVs are just not practical, even with 200 miles of range.

    If a reasonably sized (not a sub-compact) 200 mile EV were available for $30-$35K today I would buy it in the blink of an eye. My wife’s daily commute is 80 miles round trip 80% highway. A 200 mile EV would give her sufficient range to handle weather and traffic uncertainties. The way I see it the first 100 miles is its range the next 100 miles is the gas free range extender. :)
    For long distance trips we have our Volt.

    NPNS!
    Volt#671


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    Larry4pyro

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (1:23 pm)

    I think this is a much better solution than BMW’s I8. Hope this isnt only a design exercise.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (1:47 pm)

    “Monza?” Seriously?

    2aa0w2b.jpg aavjfd.jpg

    At least we should all appreciate the irony of a cheapo-muscle-car-become-technology-leader-EREV.

    Did they never use the “Monza” name in Europe? Wouldn’t be surprised.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (1:55 pm)

    Larry4pyro: Hope this isnt only a design exercise.

    Gull-wing doors = design exercise show car.

    There’s also that raft of speculative design features crammed in: CNG? LED projector display (how will that work out in bright daylight)? Etc.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (2:02 pm)

    Raymondjram:
    A little off-topic for future GM vehicle watchers:

    The 2016 Chevrolet Cruze has been seen (a preview of the next gen Volt):
    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1082324_2016-chevrolet-cruze-spy-shots#100437411

    Personally I don’t like it that much.

    Raymond

    Yes, I don’t care for it either. Maybe that’s one reason it’s being delayed a year. Shades of the recent underwhelming Malibu that had to be hurriedly reworked.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (2:06 pm)

    Mark: And NO side mirrors… Finally ! No more wondering if the daughter is going clip the mirrors trying shoehorn it into the garage. I would buy it just for that ( and its looks ) alone.

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1086180_tesla-takes-the-lead-on-dumping-door-mirrors-for-video-cameras


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (2:10 pm)

    George S. Bower: I suppose another way to get a white one would be to buy a Leaf…wink, wink

    After two years of owning a BEV I am so over the concept. A BEV with a 200 mile range would work for local driving but, even then, the amount of concern about range would prove aggravating. I think you have to live with a BEV to appreciate the limitation of only having available the energy equivalent of less than a gallon of gas. Going to two gallons, which is pretty much what the Model S does, helps but doesn’t solve the PITA problem.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (2:12 pm)

    no comment: BEVs are just not practical, even with 200 miles of range. that’s because if you live in minnesota, where you have to run the heat during the winter, you are going to get a lot less than 200 miles. and then what happens when the range runs out? fast charge? that gets you maybe 100 miles or range or less with a 20-30 minute charge. that’s a car for local driving.

    +1


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (2:14 pm)

    I will say this for CNG as a range-extending fuel:

    CNG would solve the stale-gas issue. Having lived for awhile with a REAL LIVE EREV, I appreciate more the strength of EV drive as a motivation to avoid gasoline usage at all cost. My wife strives to find every EVSE in our area, and swears out loud when she has to burn gas. Natural gas filling stations are few and far between in many areas, but a modest increase in AER would make obtaining it much less of a trial, since refueling would be rare.

    For long distance travel: If Tesla can put up a nationwide network of Superchargers, setting up CNG filling stations (or mapping existing ones) ought to be childs’ play (and without weakening an expensive battery pack to use).

    Just as the Volt has helped strengthen the case for all plug-ins (by increasing the number of vehicles using J1772 chargers), wider scale use of EREVs with CNG could offer some impetus for purely CNG-based ICE vehicles; by helping open more Methane fueling points.

    Yes, this reflects a change in my position. Chalk it up to experience.

    EDIT: Sorry, I missed stuart22’s comment. I agree with him, obviously.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (2:26 pm)

    stuart22: … when one realizes how infrequent one would need to refuel, the need for CNG infrastructure beyond what currently exists becomes less of a concern with EREVs. A greater battery range than the gen 1 Volt would definitely help mitigate things.

    Frequency of fill-ups has little to do with it. If you need to refuel, and there’s no filling station nearby, you’re stuck. Since cars travel just about everywhere, that means we need filling stations just about everywhere.

    For EREVs, I think the low frequency of fill-ups means we should stay with liquid fuel. The amount of gas used is so small, it’s just not worth the trouble of replacing our current filling station infrastructure. Better to concentrate on how to power planes, ships, and 18-wheel trucks.

    Also, the low frequency of fill-ups for EREVs means very low usage of liquid fuel, at which point biofuels become viable, sustainable, and carbon neutral. So there’s no need to replace our liquid fuel filling stations.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (2:34 pm)

    Jackson: Having lived for awhile with a REAL LIVE EREV, I appreciate more the strength of EV drive as a motivation to avoid gasoline usage at all cost. My wife strives to find every EVSE in our area, and swears out loud when she has to burn gas.

    I hear you, but if you step back and use logic, the amount of gas used by the EREVs is so small, it’s not worth the trouble.

    In my mind, the only advantage of CNG is the ability to fill up at home. In other words, you can buy a natural gas compressor. But even this has issues. You’re still using fossil fuels and adding carbon to the atmosphere. And if everyone fills up CNG at home, what’s the business case for CNG filling station owners? In other words, there would not be many filling stations.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (2:49 pm)

    Dave G: You’re still using fossil fuels and adding carbon to the atmosphere.

    Where do you think electricity comes from? LOL


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (2:59 pm)

    DonC: Where do you think electricity comes from? LOL

    From moving electrons, not necessarily from burning fossil fuels. There are thousands of ways to move electrons, and the first method done by man was rubbing a piece of amber against animal skins (wool). The name “elektron” means amber in Greek.

    Raymond


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    Bonaire

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (3:14 pm)

    This is a very cool design. They should display it in shopping mall showrooms when it’s ready for sale.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (3:38 pm)

    Dave G: I hear you, but if you step back and use logic, the amount of gas used by the EREVs is so small, it’s not worth the trouble.

    That is the point. EREVs have a weakness that very few other vehicles have; keeping fuel for so long that it can no longer be used. It may not be worth the trouble considering total energy supply, or for carbon emissions; but it could well be worth it to the EREV owner.

    As for logic, what we’re really talking about is human behavior. Beyond the enabling tech, like it or not, this is what will steer future design, through sales. My wife could get excellent mileage burning a gallon of gas a week, but she doesn’t want to. I think there are many on the site who can relate.

    In my mind, the only advantage of CNG is the ability to fill up at home.In other words, you can buy a natural gas compressor.

    Why go to that expense when you can already “fill up” at home with electrons? Compressed NG is most efficiently and safely provided at larger than home-scale, and I disagree that home stations will be common for EREVs (though it might be for all-CNG cars, if they take off).

    You’re still using fossil fuels and adding carbon to the atmosphere.

    Vs. gasoline in RE mode. What’s your point?

    Forget CO2 for a minute and realize that there are EREVs to improve, using energy from America vs. overseas (there is a lot of NG in this Country). There is also ‘good-old-fashioned’ pollution to be mitigated not just from batteries, but from cleaner-burning NG.

    In other words, there would not be many filling stations.

    Who cares if you’ve got 50 – 60 AER miles to go find one which you’ll use once a year (maybe), unless you go on a long trip? I think there could be more stations in response to CNG EREV, but fewer would be needed than for gasoline. Every potential fuel settles into it’s own paradigm, we can’t really project the gasoline status quo on it.

    I believe that the larger, historical point of EREV is that it can bridge from one technology to another. You carry a gasoline engine and a charger to use existing infrastructures, which paradoxically has the effect of gradually* building up new infrastructure for the non-EREV.

    I think EREV may also be a bridge over more than one river. To accept them, people have to make a paradigm shift to using more than one transportation fuel, which has never happened before within their experience. Is it going too far to suppose that different bridges might be used at the same time, to different fuels? If one side of the (Plug-In) “bridge” is freely accessible, might not the other side be almost anything else?

    *Gradually in this case means: small start, bigger finish. “so small, it’s not worth the trouble” doesn’t really apply to EREV when you look at it that way.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (4:54 pm)

    George S. Bower: I suppose another way to get a white one would be to buy a Leaf…wink, wink :)

    #34

    Or a Spark.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (5:03 pm)

    Waaaaaaay off topic…..

    Apparently Ford used MPG ratings of the Fusion for the C-Max because they used the same drive train?!?!?!?

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/video-hub/cars/hybrids–alternative-fuel/ford-cmax-hybrid-mileage-downgrade/14786539001/2611615786001/?EXTKEY=NWWS13033

    /what’s worse, Ford doing that or the EPA accepting it?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:12 pm)

    no comment: BEVs are just not practical

    You forgot to clarify your statement. They are not practical for you.

    Guess what, a Ford F250 isn’t practical for me, but they still make a ton of them.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:14 pm)

    George S. Bower: They make reference to Tru140S

    I didn’t see the Tru140S reference, but I as soon as I saw that first pic of the Monza concept I was going to say how much it looks like a larger Tru140S. Especially from the angle of the pic you posted.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:25 pm)

    no comment: so, if a person fills up with a gasoline car 2 or 3 times a week (for someone who does a lot of driving), the 20-30 minutes/week that they spend at gas stations turns into as much as 90 minutes at fast charging stations.

    I’m surprised you say you own a Volt because I thought you would be familiar with this concept. When you own an EV, you wake up every morning with a full tank. I’ll say it again. You wake up every morning with a full tank. This is something that is hard to get across to people that drive gas cars. They only have 1 option to refuel. They have to find a public station somewhere on a regular basis. Fueling their car at home is an unfamiliar concept. What I try to do is relate it to a cell phone. I ask them “Would you rather plug your cell phone in each night, or would you rather drive your cell phone to a public refueling station once a week and stand in the cold for 10 minutes while it charged?”

    So back to your comment. If you wake up every morning with 200 miles, why would you be spending all this time at fast chargers? And if you are driving over 200miles/day, 5 days a week, then a BEV is probably not a good car for you. In fact, putting on that many miles, I’d find a disposable cheap used car. But if you have a 100 mile commute and charging at work, then it works out.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:27 pm)

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:27 pm)

    no comment: battery swap, while faster, is a high capital proposition and would be very expensive

    It cost the same as a tank of gas.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:30 pm)

    DonC: Moreover, at the moment there are 602 CNG fueling stations in the US. In a couple of years there will probably be a couple of thousand more. Compare that to the 18 — I repeat 18 — Tesla supercharger stations which are currently in operation, or for that matter the promised 200 when the stations are completely built out — and you begin to realize both how paltry the supercharger network will be and how relatively robust CNG fueling will be.

    You need more CNG fueling stations because there is no other means for CNG car owners to refuel. Related to my post above, in an EV you have a full tank at the start of every day, so you only need a refueling station when you want to go beyond your AER.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:31 pm)

    Reminds me a lot of the recent Shanghai Auto Show Buick Rivera, Doors and all. I liked it better. Gull wing doors are much better.

    I think GM is surprised at just how much Volt owners try to make the car a virtual BEV. If you read “a tale of two Volts” you’ll see GM expected more frequent and extensive ICE use than has resulted. It’s really annoying to have to run the ICE to get diminishing battery capacity back.

    Now that Tesla has trademarked Model E I wonder if displaying their Alpha concepts is far off.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (6:52 pm)

    kdawg: You need more CNG fueling stations because there is no other means for CNG car owners to refuel.Related to my post above, in an EV you have a full tank at the start of every day, so you only need a refueling station when you want to go beyond your AER.

    #63

    Honda used to sell a home CNG refueling gizmo. I think that they divested the company that made them, but they’re still available AFAIK. i tried that one on my wife and got the same stonewall as for the EV1, LOL. Ergo, the Volt.

    But CNG cars can start out the day with a full tank

    Full disclosure – I’m aware that somebody already referred to that above. Sorry if I’m restating the obvious. if they have one of those things.

    Anyway, that cute Opel is very svelte, but it’s not going to make me trade in my Volt.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (7:03 pm)

    Noel Park: Honda used to sell a home CNG refueling gizmo.

    From what I’ve read they are expensive and unreliable. I don’t know the percentage of CNG car owners that have home compressors, but I’m pretty sure 90% of EV owners have a plug at home.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (7:20 pm)

    Mark: And NO side mirrors… Finally ! No more wondering if the daughter is going clip the mirrors trying shoehorn it into the garage. I would buy it just for that ( and its looks ) alone.

    We’ll see if the Gov approves camera’s for side mirrors. At least most mirrors today fold back when impacted.

    I hope the cameras are OK’d, because not only do they reduce drag, but cameras have advantages over the human eye. They can see parts of the spectrum humans cannot and this can be coupled with software to do almost anything a designer can imagine (think infrared at night, or motion tracking, lots of possibilities)


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (7:39 pm)

    kdawg: You need more CNG fueling stations because there is no other means for CNG car owners to refuel.

    Not true kdawg, honda sells a home refueling station and so it is a viable system. That’s what I would do because NG is really cheap here in AZ……and also our electricity. Totally unlike California where electricity is very expensive along with everything else.

    The Arizona Corporation Commission has a bill up for approval to limit the amount of electricity that California can get from our Nuclear plant.

    Since CALIFORNIA is so against Nuclear there is no reason for us to sell them Nuclear Powered electricity at such a low price.

    The proposal will significantly increase their cost of electricity even over and above what they are going to have to pay for shutting down San Offre NPP.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (7:40 pm)

    Isn’t CNG stored at 10,000 PSI in order to get useful range? I hope a CNG tank never explodes in a city, it might take out an entire block. Ethanol sounds like a safer alternative to me, and it works very efficiently in turbocharged engines.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (8:22 pm)

    Eco_Turbo:
    Isn’t CNG stored at 10,000 PSI in order to get useful range?

    Eco, there is CNG and LNG.
    the C stands for compressed and the L stands for liquid. Long haul truckers will use LIQUID as it is has a higher energy density. It also has a much higher cost storage system because LNG has to be kept cold.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (8:47 pm)

    Eco_Turbo:
    Isn’t CNG stored at 10,000 PSI in order to get useful range? I hope a CNG tank never explodes in a city, it might take out an entire block. Ethanol sounds like a safer alternative to me, and it works very efficiently in turbocharged engines.

    There was a fantastic propane explosion up near Toronto a few years ago. Not much injury but apparently quite loud and tons of huge flames. The psi isnt as bad as you think. Its the burning liquid that is sent up in an aerosol causing a large fireball. Hydrogen tanks would be safer than cng and other fuels due to fast dissipation. The hindenburg fire was not all hydrogen but rather mostly the blimp’s materials.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (9:42 pm)

    George S. Bower

    The Arizona Corporation Commission has a bill up for approval to limit the amount of electricity that California can get from our Nuclear plant.

    Since CALIFORNIA isso against Nuclear there is no reason for us to sell them Nuclear Powered electricity at such a low price.

    The proposal will significantly increase their cost of electricity even over and above what they are going to have to pay for shutting down San Offre NPP.

    That will be interesting to see. After the Enron debacle California is just so ready to take them to court over “overcharging” for wholesale electricity. You are correct but, California is depending on its ability to buy out of state electricity cheaper than build anything but renewable power stations.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (10:27 pm)

    Raymondjram:
    A little off-topic for future GM vehicle watchers:

    The 2016 Chevrolet Cruze has been seen (a preview of the next gen Volt):
    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1082324_2016-chevrolet-cruze-spy-shots#100437411

    Personally I don’t like it that much.

    Raymond

    You have recall how different today’s Cruze looks when compared to the current Volt, which is built on the same platform. This could also apply for the new Cruze / Volt. If the new frame is a foot longer, think of what it would mean for Volt 2.0, especially where rear seat leg and headroom are concerned.

    I can’t say I like the black and white paint job, though. :-P


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (10:30 pm)

    Eco_Turbo: Isn’t CNG stored at 10,000 PSI in order to get useful range? I hope a CNG tank never explodes in a city, it might take out an entire block.

    I don’t know the actual pressure, but our local transit buses (“MARTA”) run on CNG, and to my knowledge, there has only been one fire (no explosion), with everyone getting off safely. The tanks are made of some super-strength plastic, not the giant scuba tank you are probably imagining (granted, I don’t know how, or if, this helps in a fire).


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (10:42 pm)

    Bonaire: Hydrogen tanks would be safer than cng and other fuels due to fast dissipation. The hindenburg fire was not all hydrogen but rather mostly the blimp’s materials.

    Liquid hydrogen is extremely cold, even compared with liquid nitrogen (-423 vs -320 degrees Fahrenheit*). Boil-off alone would make liquid hydrogen impractical for any road vehicle (though it’s been used for years in spacecraft). A car would carry H2 compressed like CNG, or in some kind of chemical absorb-and-release system. It would also be carried underneath the passengers, unlike the airship (though as a compressed gas, the rapid flammability might actually be safer than gasoline: like deployment of the airbag, it might all be over before the occupants can realize what has happened).

    Hydrogen has other issues though, not the least of which is the fact that it is an energy carrier, technically not a fuel at all: Some different energy source must be used to liberate hydrogen from the compounds that contain it. Electrolysis from water has been talked about for decades, but you have to start with electricity (which could instead be used directly to charge an EV). In fact, the most economic means of hydrogen production is from high-temperature steam and … natural gas. The reaction releases CO2. The fossil fuel industry has shown great interest in hydrogen-powered cars; and I don’t think there can be any doubt which of these sources would be used.

    *Liquid Methane boils at a relatively torrid -263.2 degrees Fahrenheit, which could probably be safely maintained on board a professionally run vehicle like a large truck, train or plane.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (10:54 pm)

    rdunniii: That will be interesting to see.After the Enron debacle California is just so ready to take them to court over “overcharging” for wholesale electricity.You are correct but, California is depending on its ability to buy out of state electricity cheaper than build anything but renewable power stations.

    I don’t think we have been overcharging them. Arizona has been UNDER charging California for electricity. All we want is to charge them the same rates for our clean nuclear electriciy as they pay for their electricity they generate from their windmills……what is it 30 cents a kwh or more?


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (11:32 pm)

    George S. Bower: Not true kdawg, honda sells a home refueling station and so it is a viable system.

    Noel beat you to it, but $7400.. I’ll pass

    http://www.cngpump.com/shoppingcart/products/CNGPUMP%252d2gge-%28Time-Fill%29-Hydraulic-Fueling-Station-for-cars%7B47%7Dtrucks-%282gge-per-hour%29.html


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (11:49 pm)

    I wish the Velocity Channel showed more stuff on EVS, EREVS, PHEVS, and other alternative vehicles.

    If so I would watch this channel everyday besides TCM.

    http://velocity.discovery.com/tv-shows/velocity-classics/videos/la-auto-show-la-auto-show-overview.htm

    I wish there was more on alternative vehicles when it comes to this network besides just sports cars unless there alternatives.

    Guys if you watch the Velocity channel let me know if there’s anything good on if they are showing this kind of stuff?

    The Future is Electric!


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    Cameron Chien

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (11:52 pm)

    The point of a concept car is to create buzz about an upcoming car. Practicality of the final design is secondary.

    Personally I think the car looks SEXY.


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (12:26 am)

    Yeah but I want to learn more about them not simply just to be entertained if you know what I mean by?

    Though I like to be entertained but I like to learn as well too just to say.

    Also here’s a picture of NASDAQ showing that the Tesla Model S got the safest crash test of any car in history and I do hope it creates buzz and makes people think Mercedes-Benz is no longer the king of crash test no more.

    Enjoy.

    http://evnewsreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/tesla11.jpg


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (12:44 am)

    George S. Bower,

    Noel Park,

    Some more considerations regarding CNG:

    Compromises

    Purchase cost
    CNG-powered vehicles have generally cost more to purchase new than comparable gasoline models. Suggested retail for the Civic Natural Gas is $26,155 plus $770 for destination charges. A comparably equipped, gasoline-powered Civic LX lists for $18,242. A home refueling unit, plus installation, can cost upwards of $5,000, making the premium to drive a CNG Civic can top $10,000, before incentives.

    Availability
    CNG stations are not available in some areas. Check the U.S. Department of Energy Web site for availability in your region.

    Range anxiety. With a usable range of 160-180 miles, you’re going to feel range anxiety as soon as the low fuel light comes on. Given the scarcity of public access CNG filling stations, that’s a concern.

    Gassing up with CNG
    Even if you have access to natural gas, refueling can be a hassle. There are a limited number of refueling stations in the United States, and many are operated by fleets and not open to the public.

    In addition, the pressurized CNG pumps take some getting used to. They use a special fitting to seal to the vehicle, something most motorists might not recognize. A Honda representative suggested a 15-minute training session before using the pumps. Many pumps also work on a card-reader system specific to the fuel supplier. Users are billed monthly, which may be less convenient than handing over cash.

    And the pumps take about twice as long to fill the car as a regular gas pump.

    If you choose to fill up with a home system
    An advantage of refueling stations over a home unit is that the gas is already pressurized, so the tank can be filled in a matter of minutes. Gas fed to the home is under very low pressure. The home refill device acts as both a pump and a compressor, which is why it takes overnight to fill the tank. But refueling at home can cost much less than a refueling station, so it can be worth the wait, especially if the refueling is done overnight. Of course, it would take time for the payback of the initial unit cost and installation. Also, installation is likely to require a building permit.

    Honey, they shrunk the trunk
    Even though a CNG tank is larger than a gasoline tank, you get fewer miles per tank. With the Civic Natural Gas, roughly half the trunk capacity is given over to the tank, with 6 cubic feet left for your luggage. The range between fill-ups also shrinks. Honda claims a 220 to 250 mile range from the Civic Natural Gas. But when we tested a 2008 model, we couldn’t get more than about 130 before the low-fuel indicator came on.

    Other considerations

    Safety
    The Department of Energy says vehicles powered by natural gas are as safe as conventional gasoline or diesel vehicles, and their pressurized tanks have been designed to withstand severe impact, temperature, and environmental exposure. CNG is lighter than air, so if fuel were to escape in a crash, it would evaporate rather than create a puddle under the car. While the gas is escaping the storage tank, it is highly volatile. But once the gas has evaporated, the fire danger is diminished. In contrast, a gasoline spill remains a danger until the pooled liquid is removed. 

As for the potentially scary business of home refueling, BRC FuelMaker Corp. of Italy, says that the unit will not operate if it is not connected properly and that a built-in sensor shuts it down if the system senses a methane leak or any other malfunction. The manufacturer also says the device is considered a home appliance by municipalities, like a hot-water heater or gas dryer. Still, it would be wise to check with local authorities before making the investment.

    Don’t want a Honda?
    There are companies that specialize in converting other models to run on CNG. The Department of Energy says you can expect to pay between $2,000 and $4,000 if you chose to go that route. Several other automakers, including Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors will offer CNG trucks for 2013 and beyond.

    No promises of cheap fuel
    Natural-gas prices have been volatile, and today’s good deal might not look so good tomorrow. As anyone who has bought gasoline in the last few years knows, fuel prices can change quickly.

    SOURCE: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/03/the-natural-gas-alternative/index.htm?loginMethod=auto


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (7:42 am)

    Sean:
    I wish the Velocity Channel showed more stuff on EVS, EREVS, PHEVS, and other alternative vehicles.

    If so I would watch this channel everyday besides TCM.

    http://velocity.discovery.com/tv-shows/velocity-classics/videos/la-auto-show-la-auto-show-overview.htm

    I wish there was more on alternative vehicles when it comes to this network besides just sports cars unless there alternatives.

    Guys if you watch the Velocity channel let me know if there’s anything good on if they are showing this kind of stuff?

    The Future is Electric!

    I watch the Velocity Channel sometimes when time permits me. I just scanned the future shows, and today, Saturday Aug 24, at 2:00 PM AST (EDT), they will review the Bugatti Veyron. I am interested not because it is the world's most expensive production car, but because it is a new Autobot in the fourth Transformers movie. I do hope Jolt (the Volt Autobot) returns!

    Raymond


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (10:14 am)

    This is not serious. In US it could work somehow but internationally CNG price is the same as gasoline. For me would be no point using CNG in Lithuania especialy as RE.


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (10:52 am)

    Jackson: EREVs have a weakness that very few other vehicles have; keeping fuel for so long that it can no longer be used. It may not be worth the trouble considering total energy supply, or for carbon emissions; but it could well be worth it to the EREV owner.

    This is not an issue. If you stay within your electric range for several months, the Volt automatically runs the engine before the gas goes stale. In this driving scenario, the amount of fuel used is trivial. As I said before, we’d be much better off figuring out how to power planes, ships, and 18-wheel trucks than worrying about the small amount of fuel used by EREVs.


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (10:59 am)

    Jackson: Hydrogen has other issues though, not the least of which is the fact that it is an energy carrier, technically not a fuel at all: Some different energy source must be used to liberate hydrogen from the compounds that contain it. Electrolysis from water has been talked about for decades, but you have to start with electricity (which could instead be used directly to charge an EV). In fact, the most economic means of hydrogen production is from high-temperature steam and … natural gas. The reaction releases CO2. The fossil fuel industry has shown great interest in hydrogen-powered cars; and I don’t think there can be any doubt which of these sources would be used.

    Exactly. +1.

    Hydrogen is the biggest scam going. Classic red herring.


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (12:03 pm)

    Raymondjram,

    What about the 1962-1964 Corvair Monza?


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (12:44 pm)

    Dave G,

    One last thing about CNG, then I’ll leave it alone.

    It has been suggested that GM doesn’t want to make a high-AER EREV because of the stale gas issue. If this is the case, I don’t mind CNG so much as a solution. More AER means you can go farther to reach a station for something you might need semi-annually.

    If GM agrees with you about gasoline for RE, that’s fine.

    The point being, GM, how ’bout a serious increase in AER?!!


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (12:55 pm)

    Jackson:

    One last thing about CNG, then I’ll leave it alone.

    The point being, GM, how ’bout a serious increase in AER?!!

    This whole thing about a CNG range extender is so stupid I can’t believe it. Jeez, who frickin cares. Why didn’t GM explain how they are going to get more performance out of the electric part of the system. Sometimes I wonder if they even have a clue.


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (4:06 pm)

    Jackson: It has been suggested that GM doesn’t want to make a high-AER EREV because of the stale gas issue.

    I’ve never heard of this before.

    Jackson: The point being, GM, how ’bout a serious increase in AER?!!

    GM’s CEO, Dan Akerson, wants to see ’50-60 miles or more’ AER for Gen 2 Volt
    http://gm-volt.com/2013/08/09/dan-akerson-wants-to-see-50-60-miles-or-more-aer-for-gen-2-volt/

    That sounds pretty serious to me.

    I think 50-60 miles is about right. In hot or cold weather, you would still get at least 40 miles AER.

    If and EREV had more than 70 miles of range, you would just be lugging around a lot of unnecessary weight most of the time. For example, the Tesla Model S weighs almost as much as a Cadillac Escalade.


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (6:44 pm)

    Dave G: If and EREV had more than 70 miles of range, you would just be lugging around a lot of unnecessary weight most of the time. For example, the Tesla Model S weighs almost as much as a Cadillac Escalade.

    Until the EREV AER reaches 200 miles, i will want a RE. Even the BMWi3, which has 90 miles AER, i would not want to own w/out the RE. Note the BMW i3 with it’s range extender weighs almost 1000lbs less than the Volt.


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    Aug 24th, 2013 (9:52 pm)

    Hey everybody I got some real exciting news to tell you guys!

    Starting on Monday here in Renton,WA.

    The City of Renton will be replacing there Sodium Street Lamps with energy efficient LED Street Lamps except neighborhoods though it does mention that those might be replaced in the future.

    Here’s the article.

    Enjoy.

    http://www.rentonreporter.com/news/220696981.html

    If anything like this is happening in your neighborhood I don’t mind hearing about it.


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    AMERICA1ST

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    Aug 25th, 2013 (2:33 am)

    The Cadillac ELR won me over. I really like the Tesla – OUTSTANDING car, but out of my price range. This one is just a bit over the top – very concept still.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (2:43 am)

    Sean,

    Thanks for sharing this. There is hope for those of us who suffer at night with cars that can’t be recognized with sodium lighting. LEDs will bring back the car color we originally purchased.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (8:08 am)

    AMERICA1ST:
    The Cadillac ELR won me over.I really like the Tesla – OUTSTANDING car, but out of my price range.This one is just a bit over the top – very concept still.

    You’re right (& on the topic of Volt-based cars)! I would buy a Caddy ELR before ANY non-EREV car!


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (9:17 am)

    AMERICA1ST,

    I am anxious to see the ELR, to see in person if it wows the senses more than a photograph. Here is an EV that is much more exciting in person: http://torqev.com/

    On Saturday, I was able to attend a meeting of electric vehicle enthusiasts. Amazing group of people. Leaf, Toyota EV, Tesla, Torq, Brammo and Prodeco owners who enjoyed an afternoon that reminded me of the excitement of the “Homebrew Computer Club” seen in the movie “Jobs.” These folks are commitmented to driving electric only vehicles. Some convert ICE vehicles to EV. Loved their spirit of adventure.

    The number one goal appears to be getting the electrons into their vehicles faster. I applaud the efforts I saw. They are taking the idea of the Tesla SuperCharger and applying it to their own vehicles. It’s the manufacturers who need to give the customer the freedom to have DC charge circuits so the entrepreneur can invent a faster way to get the power transferred. There are people who love to drive with an electric motor so much that they are willing to put up with limitations when they cannot afford a 60 or 85 kW battery car. To the Leaf and future Spark owners who own DC circuits, I look forward to more success stories that help others charge faster. Convert the high amperage AC power available to you and invent the future.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (9:59 am)

    kdawg: Even the BMWi3, which has 90 miles AER, i would not want to own w/out the RE.

    I would not want to own the BMW i3 period. The range extender is only good for 80 miles, so it’s no good for long distance driving. The range extender is also underpowered, so no good for driving in the mountains. Basically, the range extender is just a limp-along mode to get you to the next charging station.

    kdawg: Note the BMW i3 with it’s range extender weighs almost 1000lbs less than the Volt.

    With an underpowered range extender, 2 gallon gas tank, and carbon fiber body, it’s no surprise it weighs less, but for me it’s not a useful car.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (10:03 am)

    Mark Z: There are people who love to drive with an electric motor so much that they are willing to put up with limitations when they cannot afford a 60 or 85 kW battery car.

    I love to drive with an electric motor as well, and do so most of the time. But with the Volt, I don’t have to put up with limitations at all.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (10:16 am)

    Sean: The City of Renton will be replacing there Sodium Street Lamps with energy efficient LED Street Lamps except neighborhoods though it does mention that those might be replaced in the future.
    Here’s the article.
    Enjoy.
    http://www.rentonreporter.com/news/220696981.html

    Looking at energy savings and interest on debt, it would take 28 years to break even.

    So from a cost point of view, the main savings would have to come from the labor of not having to replace the light bulbs as often. Which leads to the question: How long do high pressure sodium light bulbs last, and how long do the LED bulbs last?


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (10:57 am)

    Sean:
    Hey everybody I got some real exciting news to tell you guys!

    quote from the article:

    “Zimmerman said the debt service on the bonds will be about $216,000 per year, making the net savings to the city an estimated $55,000 per year for the first 15 years with the savings jumping to the full amount after the bonds are paid.”

    This is laughable. They have to borrow the money to change the light bulbs.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (2:07 pm)

    Dave G: If and EREV had more than 70 miles of range, you would just be lugging around a lot of unnecessary weight most of the time. For example, the Tesla Model S weighs almost as much as a Cadillac Escalade.

    So what you would need for higher EREV AER is a lighter Range Extender, and cheaper, more powerful batteries. Hey wait, didn’t Akerson also say something about a 3-cyl engine? Could the lower announced price of the 2014 model reflect a lower cost for cells? And if they can achieve greater DOC on the pack, doesn’t that imply they are more powerful than first thought?

    Also, we don’t yet know if there will be more cells in the Gen 2 pack (enough for an additional serial set? Remember, the greater the number of cells, the closer the whole pack can come to supporting a true serial hybrid mode; so this may mean more efficient range extension as well). The weight transfer from lighter RE to heavier pack may be, at worst, a wash.

    George S. Bower: This whole thing about a CNG range extender is so stupid I can’t believe it. Jeez, who frickin cares. Why didn’t GM explain how they are going to get more performance out of the electric part of the system. Sometimes I wonder if they even have a clue.

    Without a Range Extender, there is no purpose for EREV, or the Volt. The fuel is less important, but without the RE what you’ve got is a BEV: range anxiety, lack of infrastructure and all.

    In my reply to Dave (above), I argue that a lighter RE can lead directly to profound improvements in EV performance.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (3:26 pm)

    Jackson: So what you would need for higher EREV AER is a lighter Range Extender, and cheaper, more powerful batteries.

    Yes, batteries will be getting cheaper, but I doubt they’ll be getting significantly smaller or lighter any time soon. So assuming you want more AER, then you need to lose weight somewhere, and the range extender is a good place to start. The Volt’s current 1.4L is probably over-kill, and the BMW i3 650cc is obviously underpowered, so a 1.0L sounds about right.

    Jackson: Hey wait, didn’t Akerson also say something about a 3-cyl engine?

    First they said they would make it a 2.0L Atkinson engine, but lately they’ve been hinting at a 1.0L 3-cylinder.

    Jackson: Could the lower announced price of the 2014 indicate a lower cost for cells?

    Yes, and everything else as well. Remember that many of the Volt’s parts prices were negotiated with suppliers as GM was on the verge of bankruptcy. That uncertainty, plus the Volt being a completely new type of vehicle with uncertain sales, this let to higher priced parts contracts. I imagine the contracts last for 3 years, so 2014 sounds about right for the first round of cost reduction.

    Jackson: Also, we don’t yet know if there will be more cells in the Gen 2 pack …

    We don’t know much at all about the Gen 2 battery design. GM’s CEO has suggested that Tesla may be on the right cost track by using consumer cells. Or they may use something like the Spark EV pack. The only thing that seems certain is that Volt Gen 2 will have a different battery design. Beyond that, who knows?

    Jackson: Remember, the greater the number of cells, the better the whole pack can support a true serial hybrid mode; so this may mean more efficient range-extension as well).

    Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that more smaller cells is better than fewer larger cells? Or are you just saying that more energy storage in the battery is better?

    I’m still wondering if adding a capacitor would help. Compared to batteries, capacitors don’t have much energy density, but they have much higher power density. Perhaps a properly sized capacitor could supply short bursts of power for acceleration, and accept short bursts of power from regenerative braking. In other words, a capacitor acting as a short term buffer could reduce the wear and tear on the battery cells.

    For the range extender, an ICE isn’t the best choice. In normal cars (engine->transmission->wheels) an internal combustion engine (ICE) works best, but for a range extender, an ICE doesn’t make a lot of sense. The main advantage of the ICE is torque. In a regular car, torque corresponds directly to acceleration. But in an EREV, all the torque comes from the electric motor. So the main advantage of the ICE is lost in a range extender.

    I believe a Sterling engine would make a much better range extender. In a Sterling engine, the fuel never enters the piston chamber. All combustion occurs outside the cylinder walls (external combustion). The resulting heat differential automatically causes the pistons to move.
    128px-Stirling_Animation.gif

    So unlike an ICE, Sterling engines have no popping expositions inside the cylinders. The fuel just burns continuously. Since the fuel never enters the cylinder, there are no valves, camshafts, or timing belt. There’s just a fuel injector that controls continuous combustion. Also, since the heat differential causes the pistons to move automatically, there’s no starter motor. Basically, the only moving parts are the pistons and crankshaft. And since there are no popping explosions, there is no muffler. In addition, continuous combustion is much cleaner than the popping explosions of an ICE, so the catalytic converter would be simplified or eliminated. Also, since torque is not an issue for range extenders, and there are no popping explosions causing vibration, fewer larger cylinders could be used, further simplifying the engine.

    The reason Sterling engines haven’t been used much is this: they don’t change speed quickly. They’re like the old locomotive steam engines from the 1800s. So in a regular car, imagine 0-60 in 30 seconds. But again, a range extender doesn’t need to change speed quickly. The electric motor takes care of that completely. In fact, Volt owners can attest to this. The Volt’s software purposely changes the range extender RPMs slowly to reduce noise, vibration, and harshness.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (3:49 pm)

    I’m just glad that the city is trying to save money but if you want me to search up facts on High Pressure Sodium Lights and LED Street Lamps here’s some links.

    http://www.digikey.com/us/en/techzone/lighting/resources/articles/energy-efficient-led-street-lights.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_street_light

    Note) you will need to drag the marker below the video before watching the video sorry about that.

    But once you do you’ll get some facts on what LED Street lights are like when it comes to
    there advantages and disadvantages of the good and bad’s.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr1Bqk7BuuA#t=929

    I hope this clears up your minds if there better then sodium lighting if not I can still search
    more info if you need it.

    The Future Is Electric!


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (4:33 pm)

    Sean: I’m just glad that the city is trying to save money but if you want me to search up facts on High Pressure Sodium Lights and LED Street Lamps here’s some links.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_street_light

    From the Wikipedia link:
    “The lifetime of LED street lights is usually 10 to 15 years, three times the life of current technologies adopted. The much less frequent need to service or replace LEDs means low maintenance cost.”

    So it sounds like it will pay for itself in maintenance costs more than energy costs.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (5:56 pm)

    Dave G: Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that more smaller cells is better than fewer larger cells? Or are you just saying that more energy storage in the battery is better?

    A Lithium Ion battery is limited to a certain number of complete charge/discharge cycles. It is less sensitive to charge/discharge within a relatively narrow ‘sweet zone,’ near the middle of it’s capacity. When buffering widely varying driving loads, it is best to minimize corresponding swings in charge/discharge to prevent premature failure of the battery. With enough cells, the total buffering requirement is split among them such that no single cell is subjected to excessive cycling. If the RE is smaller, it may imply that more buffering is used; which would be less harmful if there are more cells.

    Dave G: For the range extender, an ICE isn’t the best choice

    Agreed.

    Dave G: So unlike an ICE, Sterling engines have no popping expositions inside the cylinders. The fuel just burns continuously. Since the fuel never enters the cylinder, there are no valves, camshafts, or timing belt. There’s just a fuel injector that controls continuous combustion

    There are several designs which use external, continuous combustion; including the Stirling*.

    I am fond of the Nutating engine:

    5aoylj.gif

    15s8x37.jpg

    I agree this is the overall way to go (in addition, a continuous combustor should more easily be designed to use multiple fuels). The only caveat is that the EREV employing it must be capable of a pure serial mode in extended range.

    Unfortunately, the old Otto is what everyone knows, and it could be awhile before we see any of the external combustion designs in a car.

    *Note the spelling, although I’m not saying the engine isn’t “sterling.” ;-)


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (7:24 pm)

    Dave G: I love to drive with an electric motor as well, and do so most of the time. But with the Volt, I don’t have to put up with limitations at all.

    Other than the 40 mile AER limitation between plug-ins. ;-)

    One new frustration for the CHAdeMO users; gone are the free DC days. Now it’s $5 for a fill at the Blink stations. With the DOE financial plug plugged for Blink, it may be a bumpy road ahead. Should SAE Combo companies buy it and install their combo plug? With the effort to rid Europe of CHAdeMO, it might be best if Nissan fights back and buys Blink instead. The DC plug war continues.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (7:49 pm)

    Jackson: I agree this is the overall way to go (in addition, a continuous combustor should more easily be designed to use multiple fuels). The only caveat is that the EREV employing it must be capable of a pure serial mode in extended range.

    I don’t see why. A planetary gear could be used with an external combustion engine. The software would just know that the external combustion engine can’t change speed quickly, and use the electric motor for acceleration. For an EREV, the electric motor is high power, and so could provide any amount of assist necessary through the planetary gear set.

    To be clear, I’m not saying that’s preferable, only that it’s possible. I think a pure series would save cost and weight.

    Jackson: Unfortunately, the old Otto is what everyone knows, and it could be awhile before we see any of the external combustion designs in a car.

    Which is why we need new players in the EREV game. And that’s why I’m upset that Tesla changed their minds about EREVs (or REEVs, as they call them):
    http://www.teslamotors.com/de_CH/node/3936
    If Tesla had continued developing REEVs, that would have really accelerated the technology for range extenders.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (8:05 pm)

    Mark Z: Other than the 40 mile AER limitation between plug-ins.

    How is that a limitation? The Volt’s range is 380 miles, and you can refuel 340 miles in 5 minutes, yet the majority of the miles driven are all-electric.

    For pure BEV owners, every one I’ve questioned has admitted using a regular gas engine car for longer trips. So their total solution uses some amount of gas anyway, perhaps more than the Volt.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (8:08 pm)

    Jackson: There are several designs which use external, continuous combustion; including the Stirling*.
    I am fond of the Nutating engine:

    Nutating uses internal combustion:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutating_engine
    A nutating disc engine (also sometimes called a disc engine) is an internal combustion engine comprising fundamentally of one moving part and a direct drive onto the crankshaft.

    The only other external combustion engine I’m familiar with is the steam engine.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (8:42 pm)

    Dave G: How is that a limitation?…

    The limitation is the vibration and sound of the engine, especially at high RPM. The goal for manufacturers should be for a silent and vibration-free generator. It should create all the power needed for a no-compromise electric experience at all times.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (10:01 pm)

    Dave G: Nutating uses internal combustion:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutating_engine
    A nutating disc engine (also sometimes called a disc engine) is an internal combustion engine comprising fundamentally of one moving part and a direct drive onto the crankshaft.

    The only other external combustion engine I’m familiar with is the steam engine.

    The only actual test series performed on a nutating engine indicates that the truth is a bit more complex than “does not” / “does so.”

    PDF alert (sorry):

    http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20060056193_2006257489.pdf

    There is more than one kind of nutating engine, it seems; or at least more than one way to look at it. The description I’m familiar with does conduct combustion externally:

    “… in the simplest version, half of the single disc (one lobe) performs the intake/compression function, while the other lobe performs the power/exhaust function. [...] The intake/compression side of the disk feeds the compressed air into an accumulator. From there it is metered to a combustion pre-chamber (at the power/exhaust side of the disk), via valves, which open at the appropriate time (the pre-chamber is that volume into which the fuel and air charge is introduced and contained when the nutating disk is at the position of minimum chamber volume). Fuel is injected, and a spark plug is fired (for a non-compression ingnition cycle). The burning gas then expands through the power/exhaust side of the disk.”

    So the actual combustion occurs outside the engine, in the pre-chamber. However, you are correct about the continuous part; the nutating engine is midway between otto and stirling (at least where combustion is concerned). It supports a longer, slower burn cycle (which is nevertheless intermittent):

    “The burning (power producing) process continues over 270 degrees of crank angle (versus 180 degrees for a conventional IC engine). This means that, for heavy fuel the Nutating engine can run at higher speeds than a conventional IC engine before the limiting speed (set by the fuel burning rate) is reached.”

    Sorry about that.

    Even at this, the nutating engine is an intriguing potential solution worthy of a look from any automaker, IMO.

    Actually, the cumbustor in some gas turbine designs can be thought of as external (plumbed off-axis from the compressor and turbine sections), and is definitely continuous. Thinking of the nutating disk as a lower-speed lower-cost version of a compressor/turbine set is likely what mislead my failing memory.


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    Aug 25th, 2013 (11:37 pm)

    Dave G: but I doubt they’ll be getting significantly smaller or lighter any time soon.

    Your “soon” needs to be clarified.

    If there was a BEV that had a 700 mile range, weighed 2500lbs, could be easily recharged in 1 hour at locations which exist at levels equivalent to gas stations, would you buy it for $35,000?


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    Aug 26th, 2013 (7:33 am)

    kdawg: If there was a BEV that had a 700 mile range, weighed 2500lbs, could be easily recharged in 1 hour at locations which exist at levels equivalent to gas stations, would you buy it for $35,000?

    No. I will never buy a pure BEV, period.


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    Aug 27th, 2013 (9:22 am)

    Dave G,

    I figured you were a RE purist, but wanted to verify. You should not limit yourself like this. If electricity is as quick/plentiful/safe (insert any other hold-back you have) as gas, why would you ever want to mess with gasoline? What is your case for gasoline? I know you like bio-fuels, but if they are obsolete, why is so important to use them?