Aug 22

Ampera Beats Model S; Model S Better Than Volt?

 

It’s not every day that you hear of the Tesla Model S taking back seat to a Chevy Volt in a head-to-head comparison – except regarding price, and potential range anxiety – but in Europe this was the case for the Volt’s Opel-branded cousin.

The extended-range electric Opel Ampera was awarded the “Green Mobility Trophy 2013” by the readers of the trade magazine Auto Zeitung, and it beat 17 other electrified vehicles in the process.

 

The overall selection of vehicles in consideration for the magazine’s awards was large, with 134 models and engines from 34 brands as candidates in seven categories.

To take the top honors in the electric vehicle category, the Opel manufactured in Detroit-Hamtramck beat 18 competitors, including the closest two competitors, the Model S and BMW i3, which reportedly placed “well behind the Ampera.”

This acknowledgement was the result of 18,000 readers participating in the vote for the the award intended to honor models and propulsion concepts that are trendsetting in their class in terms of particularly eco-friendly use of resources.

Opel-Ampera-1
 

“What customers expect from electric cars is clear: they want technology that is more environmentally friendly while offering all the benefits of conventional propulsion systems,” said Andreas Marx, director of marketing for Opel Germany. “The ‘Green Mobility Trophy’ is latest proof that we more than meet these expectations with the Ampera.”

Just like the Volt, the Ampera has accrued a fair number of awards besides this latest one, some of which include “Car of the Year 2012,” “World Green Car of the Year,” and readers’ choice awards from Auto Bild and Autoscout24.de.
 

Tesla Beats Volt?

 

Regardless what Opel says about the Ampera, Elon Musk this week took more pointed jabs at several aspects of the Volt.

Presently the top-three best selling electrified vehicles in the U.S. are the Tesla Model S, Nissan Leaf, and Chevy Volt, and of these, the CEO of Tesla offered Bloomberg his perspective on why his company’s product beats the other two.

model-s-blue-front2
 

The Volt, says Musk, is “a bit of an amphibian” and is “OK but not great” as it provides all-electric operation with only 38 miles EPA rated battery range or gas operation modest rated at 37 mpg.

The Leaf, he says, is poor in electric range, being rated at “75 miles” with a 90-percent battery charge, or 84 miles with 100-percent battery charge.

“It’s just too short of a range to be useful,” Musk said.

Further, he said, neither the Chevrolet nor Nissan handle the road very well or look very good, nor are they nearly as quick as the Model S, and they lack in fit and finish and in their electronics.


 

So there you have it. Hands down, there is no competition as to which is best, says Musk.

One thing he did not mention in the clip is that the Model S costs easily double what the Volt or Leaf do, starting at just over $71,000 and capable of optioning out to over $133,000.

The average new car price is just shy of $31,000, and the Volt which as of 2014 starts at $34,995 and the 2013 Leaf which starts at $29,650 are within this threshold when factoring full $7,500 federal tax credit and potential state subsidies.

This said, Musk makes points, some of which may have merit to one degree or another – speaking in qualified and subjective terms, we would add.

More details to round the story would include that the Leaf and Volt are well-regarded by most reviewers, have each won numerous design and engineering awards, and do offer quality and value perceived to many.

In short, the Leaf and Volt attract different kinds of customers, and offer a different set of advantages.

The Volt’s electric range is considered acceptable for the average daily driving distance of under 40 miles that studies say is required by upwards of 75 percent of drivers. It also offers convenience in that it runs on gas so there is no anxiety over whether one will run out of charge and be stranded in a land where (comparatively slow) charging stations are vastly outnumbered by gas pumps.

Is this a negative or a positive for the Volt? Musk says one thing, other people say something quite to the contrary.

comparo

As for the Leaf, it does accept DC quick charging which makes doubling its daily range possible for those who can take advantage of it. And it can be charged intra-day merely by plugging in to more a conventional level 1 or 2 charger at a destination, where possible, such as while parked at work.

The Leaf’s electric efficiency also happens to be 115 MPGe – higher than the 89 MPGe for the 85-kwh Model S or 95 MPGe for the 60-kwh version.

Really though, one can spin the pros and cons for these three cars any number of ways, and we will not touch the ultimate question of what is “best” with a 10-foot pole – actually, since these cars are in separate sub-categories, we don’t think this question can be unequivocally answered for all.

As they say, “beauty is in the eye of the beholder,” and Elon Musk has not surprisingly shown his preference in cars.

He’s entitled to his opinions but despite any perceived need for solidarity among EV proponents at this juncture, apparently Musk’s view is not the cry of the Three Musketeers: “All for one, and one for all.”

Perhaps at other times he’s spoken more charitably?

This entry was posted on Thursday, August 22nd, 2013 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 117


  1. 1
    Dave G

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (6:12 am)

    From the article: The Volt, says Musk, is “a bit of an amphibian”…

    What’s wrong with amphibians?

    It seems his main issue with the Volt is subjective. It doesn’t fit his vision of the future.

    My vision is different. I don’t believe everything will be powered using solar panels. There’s no one “silver bullet” that will solve all of our energy needs. It will take a combination of solutions working together. Solar panels, solar thermal, wind, hydro, geothermal, nuclear, biofuels, etc. Each has its place. If you try to force any to be the “one and only” solution, it probably won’t work.

    With this vision in mind, EREVs are not a transitional technology. FlexFuel EREVs will be a long-term solution. Range extenders will get smaller, lighter, and less expensive. When DEFCs become cost effective, range extenders will have no moving parts at all, and be twice as efficient as a normal gas engine. Until then, other types of engine designs will steadily improve range extender cost, weight, and efficiency. Biofuels will be sustainable, and cost about what gasoline costs now. Electricity will be cheaper, so people will use that more, but liquid fuel is here to stay.


  2. 2
    Koz

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (6:13 am)

    I think he should have said each car fits completely different purposes and suits different audiences, so they really aren’t very comparable and left it at that.


  3. 3
    GSP

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (6:44 am)

    I think that Musk must be confusing the Volt with the Leaf or Prius when it comes to driving dynamics. The Volt’s 50/50 weight distrubution, low Cg, and performance tuned suspension deliver the goods. The specially developed Goodyear Assurance FuelMax LLR tires are also designed for performance per GM engineering specifications, and greatly contribute to a fun driving experience.

    I think someone needs to challange Musk to a slalom competition:Volt vs. Model S.

    GSP

    PS. The width of the Model S hurts its slalom times considerably


  4. 4
    john1701a

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (6:50 am)

    Dave G: What’s wrong with amphibians?

    There’s an expectation of offering the best of both worlds.

    Depleted MPG isn’t any better than what similar-sized traditional vehicles deliver.

    The need for an efficiency improvement in that mode isn’t fulfilled.


  5. 5
    Dave G

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (6:58 am)

    GSP: I think someone needs to challange Musk to a slalom competition:Volt vs. Model S.

    The Model S would win, but that’s not the point. Average selling price of the Model S is 4 times the Volt. It’s in a different league.

    The real question is how their 3rd generation (Tesla Model E) will compare with the Volt, both in price and performance. Tesla now says it will sell for $35K. I have my doubts on that. They originally said it would cost $30K, but have since revised that upward.

    Meanwhile, the cost of the Volt is decreasing. GM’s CEO said cost reductions will cut $10K from the Volt’s price over the next 3-4 years, so the Volt sticker will probably be under $30K when the Model E is released. He also said the Volt’s electric range would increase to somewhere between 50-60 miles.

    So Tesla is shooting at a moving target.


  6. 6
    john1701a

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (6:59 am)

    GSP: I think that Musk must be confusing the Volt with the Leaf or Prius when it comes to driving dynamics… The specially developed Goodyear Assurance FuelMax LLR tires are also designed for performance per GM engineering specifications, and greatly contribute to a fun driving experience.

    If those tires contribute so much to the driving experience, we should point out that the plug-in Prius uses those very same tires.


  7. 7
    bobchr

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (7:00 am)

    Au-contraire the Volt gets better CS mileage than a Mini, a Smart car and most ICE cars that claim 40+ mpg Highway only to see the high 20′s in the city.


  8. 8
    bobchr

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (7:04 am)

    Dave G: The Model S would win, but that’s not the point.Average selling price of the Model S is 4 times the Volt.

    The real question is how their 3rd generation (Tesla Model E) will compare with the Volt, both in price and performance.Tesla says it will sell for $35K.I have my doubts on that.

    I think the chances of see a Tesla in the $35,000 range in the near future are slim to none. Tesla will not have the economies of scale to offer a roomy and safe enough car in that price range. If it is offered it will be a super bare bones model which will quickly rise to $47,000 to make it palatable.


  9. 9
    john1701a

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (7:05 am)

    Dave G: The Model S would win, but that’s not the point. Average selling price of the Model S is 4 times the Volt.

    Let’s not overlook the reality of profit need. GM is making progress at reducing production cost. The entire amount in the recent $5,000 price drop has not been accounted for though. Tesla isn’t selling at a loss.

    There’s also the reality of the tax-credit expiring. Model S may be 4 times more expensive, but the credit available is the same as Volt, making it only 1/4 the purchase incentive. That dependency will impact Volt much more.


  10. 10
    Texas

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (7:14 am)

    It is hard to deny just how nice the Model S is, especially when you see it in motion. It is an amazingly well designed vehicle. I hope they sell millions of them and the profits fund new designs that are more practical for normal people.

    The Volt is also a well designed vehicle and can be used in more extreme climates because having a few gallons of liquid fossil fuels on-board can be the difference between life and death in a desert or in a blizzard. Batteries just do not compare to the energy density of liquid fuels.


  11. 11
    Eco_Turbo

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (7:18 am)

    john1701a,

    I wonder where the P cars came on the list of Green Mobility winners?


  12. 12
    nasaman

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (7:31 am)

    From today’s topic: “The extended-range electric Opel Ampera was awarded the “Green Mobility Trophy 2013” by (~18,000) readers of the trade magazine Auto Zeitung, and it beat 17 other electrified vehicles in the process……” After spending lots of time all over Europe involved in the European space program, I’ve concluded that most Europeans are noticeably more pragmatic (on average) than most Americans, no doubt at least partly a result of living through WWII only a few generations ago. So, because the Volt/Ampera EREV design is clearly more practical than any “pure BEV”, I’m not surprised Europeans prefer the GM approach.

    Regarding Elon Musk’s views, his opinions/comments are clearly colored by his huge ego. What billionare doesn’t have an outsized ego?


  13. 13
    Dave G

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (7:35 am)

    john1701a: The need for an efficiency improvement in that mode isn’t fulfilled.

    Efficiency only matters when you have a scarce resource.

    Once we transition off of oil, nobody will care about MPG. Solar panels will be dirt cheap. Electricity will be abundant, and biofuels will easily fill the gap that electricity doesn’t. It will be like the 60′s again. Housewives will drive muscle cars.


  14. 14
    john1701a

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (7:44 am)

    Dave G: Efficiency only matters when you have a scarce resource.

    The oil we consume comes from how far away? How much do we already subsidize its price? What about the smog related emissions from it?

    You don’t waste a resource just because it is abundant or cheap. Efficiency matters. If it doesn’t, why is there so much concern about density & capacity?


  15. 15
    Jim Fallston Md.

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:11 am)

    Musk is making comments with the billionaire capitilist mindset that is designed to protect his future income.

    My product is the only great product out in the market place and everyone should buy it even if they can’t afford it just so I make more money.


  16. 16
    KNS

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:23 am)

    The Volt, says Musk, is “a bit of an amphibian…”

    The amphibians learned how to leave the sea, populate the land, build electric cars and broadcast individual opinions far and wide.

    I have heard enough Muskisms to last a life time.

    Jeff, please just stick to the facts.

    Thank you.

    KNS


  17. 17
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:34 am)

    “One thing he did not mention in the clip is that the Model S costs easily double what the Volt or Leaf do”
    ——-

    Exactly. You get what you pay for. In a couple years, we’ll see what the Tesla Gen 3 looks like and its price, then we can revisit this topic.


  18. 18
    Tall Pete

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:37 am)

    Truth of the matter is, Musk’s opinion is biased. Let’s see how the market will respond to the latest Volt price decrease now that it’s obvious GM’s technology is working flawlessly.


  19. 19
    Nelson

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:38 am)

    I think one of the big differentiator between the two cars is that one comes with the promise of “free” unlimited fueling for life via a Supercharging network that’s growing across the country. Maybe GM could roll out an $80,000 ELR and say it comes with free gas for life and hope the price of gas never rises.

    NPNS!
    Volt#671


  20. 20
    Steverino

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:46 am)

    If the Model S were the same price as the Volt, I would still buy the Volt. The MS does not have a key capability I need for my primary car: dual fuel.

    I think Musk came off looking bad by comparing the MS to two cars that are half the price of the MS. I lost some respect for him.


  21. 21
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:48 am)

    Elon seemed to be grasping at straws in the video. For example, comparing the looks is very subjective, and not really a quantifiable metric. And then to say they Volt & Leaf do not have good fit & finish was just a complete falsehood. I think he was just looking for more bullet points but didn’t prepare, so that’s all he could come up with.


  22. 22
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:51 am)

    Dave G: Solar panels, solar thermal, wind, hydro, geothermal, nuclear, biofuels, etc.

    One thing to keep in mind is all of those are, or can be, used to create electricity. It is the most flexible “flex-fuel”


  23. 23
    harrier

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:53 am)

    I really do love my Volt (#900) and will talk someones ear off about it and electric transportation but I cannot argue with Mr. Musk’s assessment on the failings of the Leaf or the Volt. GM did a fantastic job in building the Volt in record time back in 2011, but they are now playing catch up to Tesla. The next version of the Volt needs to be as pulse inducing on all fronts or they will fall out of the leaders circle.

    - Harrier (Volt #900)


  24. 24
    taser54

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:56 am)

    It is hilarious that Musk criticizes the Volt electronics when his Model S has the Vampire Power Draw from hell when the car is just sitting around.

    The leader of a company can go a long way to turning off customers, I could purchase a Model S easily, but I won’t because I will not reward Musk’s behavior.

    Maybe his attitude works for some … but I proffer that it turns off many other potential customers.


  25. 25
    Tim Hart

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:23 am)

    You don’t hear GM dissing Tesla or the other electric options. Elon definitely dropped down a level. The idea is to get more electrics on the road no matter who builds or buys them!


  26. 26
    volt11

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:43 am)

    Of course the elephant in the room is that people make thousands of trips every day that a Tesla S cannot make, because they’re too many miles and insufficient quick charge facilities exist. In that sense, the Tesla is a limited-use vehicle at a very high price.

    Musk has an obligation to spin his product in the best way possible. But when he has to compare his car to others that cost half as much or less to make them look good, that says something.

    Did I miss the link to the Bloomberg article? Could be interesting to read. I expect the usual clueless reporting.


  27. 27
    Kup

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:45 am)

    Steverino: If the Model S were the same price as the Volt, I would still buy the Volt. The MS does not have a key capability I need for my primary car: dual fuel. I think Musk came off looking bad by comparing the MS to two cars that are half the price of the MS. I lost some respect for him.

    While I’m not a fan of Musk’s comments in this article, I would take the Tesla over the Volt, no doubt about. Dont’ get me wrong, I LOVE the Volt. But the truth is I’ve had in almost 2 1/2 years and I’m not completely sure if I have taken it on a trip that exceeds 200 miles round trip. If we go on a trip of that length we will usually take the Honda CRV due to the extra luggage space needed for a trip of longer than 3 days. For day to day driving, the Tesla, I imagine is SOOOOO much better than the Volt. I hear it handles great and the torque just decimates the Volt.

    Now, since they aren’t the same price, I am still driving very happily in my Volt and keeping the extra $40k to $50k in my bank account.


  28. 28
    Ross

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:45 am)

    Great article Jeff,

    I’m one of the many persons that will never be able to afford a Model S; new or used. I’m also more then happy with my “amphibian” Volt. Electric when you want it gas when you need it, as the ad copy goes.

    I couldn’t help but admire how you presented a balanced review of the facts as well as the opinions of Elon Musk.


  29. 29
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:46 am)

    nasaman: What billionare doesn’t have an outsized ego?

    I’d say Warren Buffet.


  30. 30
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:52 am)

    john1701a: Depleted MPG isn’t any better than what similar-sized traditional vehicles deliver.

    You can’t be serious. I get tired of hearing this lie. The Volt get’s better MPG than 95% of the other compacts out there, and better than 100% of traditional vehicles. The ONLY compacts that get better mpg are HYBRIDS. Here is the top 35 out of 188. The Volt is #8 on the list and 2 of the hybrids above it are just a different versions of the Insight.

    If you want the full list, go to http://www.kdawg.com and go to the MPG tab.

    FuelEconomy_zps04c294d3.jpg


  31. 31
    joe

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:58 am)

    Tesla acts like they are now a huge company, but they are not….. in fact they are very small. Unless the Tesla company invents something that really can leapfrog other car companies, which it hasn’t, then Elon Musk lives in a fantasy world. Tesla, let’s come back to the real world….. it’s not that easy. If it were, other companies would have been there a long time ago. We are not all that dumb.


  32. 32
    George S. Bower

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:01 am)

    Why didn’t they mention the Spark.??

    It’s super fun to drive, has almost 100 mile range and it is very affordable.

    GM needs a 200 mile EV in the Tesla segment. They could do it and do it fast. They have all the tools and components already.


  33. 33
    George S. Bower

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:07 am)

    Dave G:

    Meanwhile, the cost of the Volt is decreasing

    Keyes in Ca is giving them away.
    They are offering 3500 off in addition to the 5000$ factory incentives. After the gov rebates you can get a Volt for 22,000.

    Beat that Elon!

    http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?67570-Keyes-Labor-Day-weekend-only-sale.&p=876146#post876146


  34. 34
    volt11

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:14 am)

    kdawg: You can’t be serious.I get tired of hearing this lie.The Volt get’s better MPG than 95% of the other compacts out there.The ONLY compacts that get better mpg are HYBRIDS.Here is the top 35 out of 188.The Volt is #8 on the list and 2 of the hybrids above it are just a different versions of the Insight.

    If you want the full list, go to http://www.kdawg.com and go to the MPG tab.

    I don’t understand your list. Why is only the Prius model C listed, and not the other Prii models?

    Not to encourage John1701a, who is a miserable troll driving an ugly, econobox import, with extremely inferior plug-in performance, and costs as much as the Volt after tax incentives.


  35. 35
    nasaman

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:17 am)

    It’s yesterday’s topic, I know, but here’s today’s news: “Always able to find itself at the center of controversy, Tesla’s latest PR stunt has earned it a slap on the wrist by a Federal safety agency. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has released a statement in rebuttal to Tesla‘s claim that the Model S is the safest car ever and that it earned a “new combined record of 5.4 stars” according to a Tesla release”…* —So Elon also went overboard on safety in NHTSA’s view.

    * http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013/08/tesla-model-s-not-safest-car-ever-nhtsa.html


  36. 36
    George S. Bower

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:18 am)

    volt11:

    Not to encourage John1701a, who is a miserable troll driving an ugly, econobox import, with extremely inferior plug-in performance.

    No doubt about it. Toyota really ‘ucked up with the PIP. Look at the sales numbers. They went the wrong direction on battery size.


  37. 37
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:20 am)

    volt11,

    The data is from FuelEconomy.gov. This is what they list for “compact”. The regular Prius is considered a “Midsize” by the EPA class size.

    And even if ALL the Prius’s were listed, they are still hybrids. John’s comment was that the Volt wasn’t any better than any traditional vehicle in its size. The fact is, it’s better than 100% of the traditional vehicles. Only hybrids can beat its MPG.

    If I get more time today, I’ll try to compile a list of ALL cars (but it’s tedious work)


  38. 38
    Bobc

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:33 am)

    George S. Bower:
    Why didn’t they mention the Spark.??

    It’s super fun to drive, has almost 100 mile range and it is very affordable.

    GM needs a 200 mile EV in the Tesla segment. They could do it and do it fast. They have all the tools and components already.

    You’re right George, they probably could. But as you don’t ask a person fresh off rehab for a knee surgery to run a marathon , it’s probably not wise for a car company 4 years out of bankruptcy to bet the farm on EV’s . A measured response is required here, and we don’t know GM’s future plans.


  39. 39
    john1701a

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:41 am)

    (click to show comment)


  40. 40
    Stephen H

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:53 am)

    I don’t think we should be too hard on Elon, Telsa is after all in competition with much larger companies who have much deeper pockets and doing surprisingly well. The Telsa S is a niche specialty EV vehicle for the rich. The volt is a bit of a stretch (or was before the huge discounts) for a lot of us but the Telsa S it outright not affordable for most folks.

    I find the styling in the upcoming Cadillac ELR to be much more attractive than the Telsa S. The Telsa S actually seems a little bland compared to what you would find in a luxury sedan of it’s price range aside from a massive tablet display which you should not be messing around with when driving. Still I consider this to be in the eye of the beholder so it is a pointless argument.

    I wouldn’t call the comment on the Volt being an amphibious vehicle an insult. The Volt is designed to be practical and to handle pretty much anything our climate and geography can throw at us in North America. There’s no other EV that can pull that off as well. Sure there’s some compromises in performance, space and efficiency to accomplish this but when was the last time you heard a Volt owner say that I can’t drive from x to y because of some actual limitation in the car.

    I would say Elon’s arguments are pretty fair from his point of view (and as a competitor) compared to the “Volt can’t do more than 40 miles!” flat out lies that we see in other news.

    I think the Telsa S is a good EV to have as a flagship. It’s crazy headlines attract people but when most folks realize they can’t afford it, but are still interested, they try for less expensive EV’s like the Volt.


  41. 41
    Kup

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:59 am)

    George S. Bower: No doubt about it. Toyota really ‘ucked up with the PIP. Look at the sales numbers. They went the wrong direction on battery size.

    Yeah, the PIP really doesn’t make much sense at all when you compare it to the Volt. Only Prius fan boys would make the decision to buy a PIP over the Volt. But I haven’t seen any PIP sales figures. Do you know what their monthly average is for sales?


  42. 42
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:09 am)

    john1701a: Argue semantics all you want.

    Semantics, give me a break. So you are sticking by your original statement that the Volts MPG in RE mode “isn’t any better than similar-sized traditional vehicles”, when in fact it is better than ALL of them?

    And this is really not pertinent since the Volt is a plug-in vehicle that gets 250+mpg. Many of us rarely use the range extender. The fact it gets better MPG than all other traditional compact cars is just a bonus.


  43. 43
    hvacman

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:09 am)

    john1701a: It’s hard to believe 37 MPG is actually getting praise in 2013, long after the effort to improve efficiency began.

    Actually, for the Volt, an average of 900 miles between fill-ups of a 9-gallon tank gets well-deserved praise in 2013. Long after the effort to improve efficiency began, still NO hybrid can claim that… and NO EV can claim it can take you anywhere in the country, at any time, without lengthy charging stops. ONLY the Volt…the ULTIMATE can-do EV/hybrid wonder car. Go Volt!


  44. 44
    yoyodyn

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:09 am)

    kdawg,

    The Volt is listed as a compact based on its interior, correct? Are there any classifications that rate based on the exterior size/weight?


  45. 45
    George S. Bower

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:10 am)

    Kup: .Do you know what their monthly average is for sales?

    looks like piP can only sell about 800/mo and YTD they have only sold 5000 with essentially no increase over last year. Pretty pathetic.

    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/02/july-2013-green-car-sales-edition/


  46. 46
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:12 am)

    Stephen H,

    Well put. (And if this is Stephen Hawking, that must have taken you all day to type.)


  47. 47
    kdawg

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:15 am)

    yoyodyn: The Volt is listed as a compact based on its interior, correct? Are there any classifications that rate based on the exterior size/weight?

    This is what the EPA says.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/findacarhelp.shtml#epaSizeClass

    EPA Size Class
    The size class for cars is based on interior passenger and cargo volumes as described below. The size class for trucks is defined by the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR), which is the weight of the vehicle and its carrying capacity. Fuel economy regulations do not apply to heavy-duty vehicles, so they are not tested.
    classsize_zps2ebb1009.jpg


  48. 48
    yoyodyn

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:22 am)

    kdawg,

    I knew that part, it just seems like it could be used to cheat the system. You could take an Escalade, load it up with batteries so the interior space was in the 100-109 range and call it a compact. Ok, perhaps not an Escalade as it would be categorized as an SUV first. But imagine some other large car.

    When a parking space is marked “Compact” what cars can park there, since the spaces a normally see marked that way are a bit smaller than the normal space.


  49. 49
    stuart22

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:46 am)

    The Model S was the easy part for Musk – stuff a humungous battery into a thoroughly modern chassis & body shell and price it at the highest level. GM has the expertise to do this, but not the will to have taken the risk.

    However, Musk is going to find it much, much harder to come up with a world beating, profitable long range EV sedan in the $35k-$40k part of the market, which is where GM resides and excels. That is when Elon will truly realize how hard it is to succeed in the auto business.


  50. 50
    john1701a

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:47 am)

    kdawg: Semantics, give me a break. So you are sticking by your original statement that the Volts MPG in RE mode “isn’t any better than similar-sized traditional vehicles”, when in fact it is better than ALL of them?

    Nope. I’m changing it to “doesn’t deliver hybrid efficiency after depletion” and now everyone will know why.

    Ford’s plug-in hybrids are bigger, yet deliver 43 MPG. How is that even close? Toyota’s plug-in hybrid is bigger too, and it delivers 50 MPG.

    Notice how many Volt supporters are also pushing for higher MPG with the next generation? Clearly, the current isn’t enough. Give the rest of us a break.


  51. 51
    john1701a

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:51 am)

    yoyodyn: The Volt is listed as a compact based on its interior, correct? Are there any classifications that rate based on the exterior size/weight?

    Keep in mind that the “compact” car now is actually bigger than the “midsize” cars of the 90′s, making it more of a relative measure rather than strict dimensions that never change.

    With that being said, it doesn’t change anything beyond parking. Consumers place a high priority on seating space. It’s a big influence in the purchase decision. The rear legroom in Volt is most definitely not roomy. It matches other “compact” cars.


  52. 52
    Zeede

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:59 am)

    Well that’s retarded. Comparing the fit and finish of a $35k car VS a $80k car? Really, Elon?


  53. 53
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:01 pm)

    yoyodyn: When a parking space is marked “Compact” what cars can park there, since the spaces a normally see marked that way are a bit smaller than the normal space.

    When I see those signs, they say “Small Cars Only”. I don’t know of a classification system based on size/weight. You could probably use the curb weights, but with EV’s that can become misleading.


  54. 54
    Noel Park

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:08 pm)

    nasaman: Regarding Elon Musk’s views, his opinions/comments are clearly colored by his huge ego. What billionare doesn’t have an outsized ego?

    #12

    That and his unmatched wizardry at generating “ink” for his ventures. +1

    Again, with apologies to Rhett Butler:

    “Frankly Scarlett, I don’t give damn what Elon Musk says.”

    As to the Ampera, very cool the Germans appreciate our technology more than we do, LOL. Good for them.


  55. 55
    pjkPA

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:08 pm)

    My Volt handles very well… better than most cars and better than any suv…

    I never have to worry about forgetting to charge my Volt … and never have to worry about range…

    There are thousands of dealers all over the US to service my Volt…

    At 70K … early adopters have the money… we’ll see in a year or so who is left to pay high end Caddy price for a car that only goes 200 miles in the summer and half that in the winter.

    The Volt is still the best choice after 3 years.
    Still the best engineered car on the road… and gen II is well underway..


  56. 56
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:09 pm)

    john1701a: Notice how many Volt supporters are also pushing for higher MPG with the next generation? Clearly, the current isn’t enough. Give the rest of us a break.

    No, I don’t notice that many. “Clearly”? When is anything “enough”. I wan’t more EV range. Is 40miles of AER enough, yeah, most of the time, but more is better. If GM gets the Volt to 50mpg in RE mode, fine, but not that important (or as important as you make it out to be). More EV range easily trumps it along with price reductions. If GM can kill 3 birds with 1 stone, great, but I don’t want them to compromise EV range or price reduction to get a higher MPG in RE mode.


  57. 57
    Noel Park

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:10 pm)

    Jim Fallston Md.:
    Musk is making comments with the billionaire capitilist mindset that is designed to protect his future income.

    My product is the only great product out in the market place and everyone should buy it even if they can’t afford it just so I make more money.

    #15

    Exactly. +1


  58. 58
    MrEnergyCzar

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:11 pm)

    Sounds like he’s getting a little cocky… He’s smart to smack the closest competitors since the sales are about equal. We’ll see who breaks away in the coming months…

    MrEnergyCzar


  59. 59
    Noel Park

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:11 pm)

    KNS: I have heard enough Muskisms to last a life time.

    #16

    Amen. +1


  60. 60
    Noel Park

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:22 pm)

    kdawg: I’d say Warren Buffet.

    #29

    Don’t bet on it.

    He owns the BNSF railroad which is one of the most arrogant and greedy organizations I have ever encountered. And one of their biggest business activities is shipping coal out of the Powder River Basin in Wyoming. They are constantly scheming to expand their dirty business including, but not limited to, building port facilities in OR and WA to ship coal to China.

    Not to mention the high polluting rail yard they are trying to build in my area without a care or concern for the low income neighbors.

    When I see these things I lose a LOT of respect for Mr. Buffett. He can have the humblest, aw shucks, persona he wants. Actions speak louder than words.


  61. 61
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:26 pm)

    john1701a: Nope. I’m changing it to “doesn’t deliver hybrid efficiency after depletion” and now everyone will know why.

    And the Plugin Prius doesn’t deliver EV efficiency over 62mph, or after 6 miles.


  62. 62
    john1701a

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:33 pm)

    kdawg: When is anything “enough”.

    It’s when major sacrifices are made, abandoning goals for the sake of drawing attention. Those types of tradeoffs are not worth it. The purpose of achieving profitable high-volume sales is too important to simply postpone.

    Notice how the computer industry has so successfully rolled out well-balanced devices that could support capacity upgrades later, as the cost reductions would allow? They set price-points and stuck to them. There weren’t dramatic & unexpected drops all at once without an upgrade, as we’ve seen with Volt.

    With computers, mp3 players, and phones, they’ve all offered increased memory & battery-capacity as that technology improved. The “enough” approach was a carefully thought out and quite predictable process. And as much as certain Volt owners grumble about it, that is indeed the approach Toyota has taken with Prius. Capacity will increase as cost warrants, keeping price at the clearly established “nicely under $30,000” target consumers have expressed as an important purchase criteria. GM didn’t stick to that very criteria they helped to establish; they didn’t recognize the “enough” tradeoff.


  63. 63
    DonC

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:39 pm)

    Who cares about Tesla? Tesla sells toys for boys. If you have $100K for an electric car that you can use for local driving it’s the best (and only until the i8 arrives) the choice. But for a mainstream car that can deliver the Volt/Ampera is the clear winner. The Volt crushes the Prius, which used to be the leader in the space, like a grape. It has far better performance, much better handling, a much smoother and quieter ride, and gets far better gas mileage. Now with the price cut IT COSTS LESS. If you have access to a plug then the only reason you’d buy a Prius rather than a Volt is that you’re brain dead, have an affinity for 8 track tapes, or work for Toyota.

    GM wanted the Volt to be a Prius killer. It is. Now they just need to market it that way.

    john1701a: Ford’s plug-in hybrids are bigger, yet deliver 43 MPG. How is that even close? Toyota’s plug-in hybrid is bigger too, and it delivers 50 MPG.

    You’re joking, right? Who cares what the MPG is in CS Mode? If the Volt delivered 50 MPG I’d have used 7 more gallons of gas over the last 28 months. Big deal. Contrary to what you’re claiming, MPG in CS Mode is way down on the list of what Volt owners care about. It’s a lot more important to you than to us since it’s your last remaining bullet point in favor of the Prius. LOL

    I’ll just point out what I always do. On voltstats.com the median Volt owner gets 175 MPG. Crushes the Prius like a grape. End. Of. Story.


  64. 64
    john1701a

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:41 pm)

    kdawg: And the Plugin Prius doesn’t deliver EV efficiency over 62mph, or after 6 miles.

    Wow! Taking about arguing semantics.

    Over 62 mph, the battery-pack continues to deliver a significant EV boost. At 65 mph, you’ll see efficiency over 100 MPG. So what if it’s not 999 MPG. Electricity from the plug is still being taken advantage of. The goal is significant consumption reduction is clearly delivered.

    As for the nonsense about 6 miles, that’s just blatant greenwashing. That EPA value does not represent capacity available. Claiming it does is intentional misleading. Owners routinely see between 12 and 15 miles from the 4.4 kWh battery-pack.


  65. 65
    DonC

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:47 pm)

    kdawg: Exactly. You get what you pay for. In a couple years, we’ll see what the Tesla Gen 3 looks like and its price, then we can revisit this topic.

    Given that a smaller car doesn’t cost appreciably less to build than a larger car, I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for a lower cost product from Tesla. Nissan with the Leaf and GM with the Spark so own the low cost BEV space I doubt Tesla will even try to compete there. I think Tesla is stuck in the high end.


  66. 66
    DonC

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (12:51 pm)

    john1701a: Wow! Taking about arguing semantics.

    The PIP is so uncompetitive I wouldn’t be surprised to see Toyota abandon it. And if I’m Toyota I’d be very concerned that GM marketing will actually get on the stick and the Volt will start eating Prius for lunch.


  67. 67
    Mark Z

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:01 pm)

    Posting late in the morning, I find the discussion lively and a fun read. Saw “Jobs” last night, now that was ego, but look at what we enjoy today. People who choose to be different and create totally new successful products will be challenged by the status quo. But the real test is the experience of using the product. Remember DOS and Macintosh OS? Plain cell phones and iPhone? BW and Color TV (yes, some preferred monochrome in the 60′s!) Consumer choice gives us better products when someone is inspired to reinvent, improve and get the product to market.

    Volt and Model S are wonderful plug-in vehicles. Volt excels in flexible fueling. Model S excels in BEV range and performance. For many, neither will work for their situation. We can never agree on what is best because each buyer has their own requirements. I just try to listen to those who ride or drive my Model S to hear their comments. Many of you would be pleased at how often I suggest a Volt for their consideration. ELR will be another option. Spark is an choice for the cost conscious who only want to plug-in. The planned 35K Tesla gives every plug-in lover hope when thinking about their future choices. It’s a great time to experience all the plug-in models and help many to think differently. Plug-in instead of fill-up. Electric torque .vs. ICE gearing. Quiet acceleration or noisy engine. The buyer can choose a superior experience by remembering: no plug = no sale.


  68. 68
    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:05 pm)

    DonC,

    My fear is Tesla will take the nickle & dime approach. So you will have a base model Blue Star for $35K, and by the time you walk out the door it’s $50K.

    Not an issue right now, as I’ll be sitting on my money (and saving up more nickles & dimes), for the next 3 years. It will be an interesting time in 2016, to see what options are out there.


  69. 69
    jeffhre

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:17 pm)

    john1701a,

    That would be correct, only if ignoring the fact that it’s primary mode is derived from electricity from the mains, is your intent. Accounting for that fact, what is really needed is work on a cleaner grid, or installation of solar panels or other clean energy technology by Ampera, EV and Volt drivers to offset pollutants emitted from electricity generation on the grid.


  70. 70
    Dave G

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:20 pm)

    joe: Tesla acts like they are now a huge company, but they are not….. in fact they are very small. Unless the Tesla company invents something that really can leapfrog other car companies, which it hasn’t, then Elon Musk lives in a fantasy world. Tesla, let’s come back to the real world….. it’s not that easy. If it were, other companies would have been there a long time ago. We are not all that dumb.

    I don’t think Elon Musk has any illusions that Tesla is a big car company. What he wants to do is influence big car companies by showing what’s possible. He’s said this many times. Tesla’s goal is to accelerate the electrification of the automobile.

    And by this measure, I think Tesla is having some success. Their influence on the industry is becoming significant.


  71. 71
    john1701a

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:23 pm)

    DonC: The PIP is so uncompetitive I wouldn’t be surprised to see Toyota abandon it. And if I’m Toyota I’d be very concerned that GM marketing will actually get on the stick and the Volt will start eating Prius for lunch.

    The choice of battery-capacity prevented the sacrifice of seating & cargo room. It also positioned it to have a cost within the typical range of upgrade options, what we normally see among model differences.

    We know that Toyota is directly targeting mainstream consumers for profitable high-volume sales with Prius. Adding the choice of a plug but keeping the size to 4.4 kWh keeps it affordable. It also retained MPG, by keeping the influence of weight to a minimum.

    The competition for Prius is ordinary traditional vehicles, buyers who would otherwise purchase a car like Camry or Corolla. Who is the market for Volt? How many times must that continue to be asked? What is its competition?


  72. 72
    Jeff Cobb

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:26 pm)

    KNS:
    The Volt, says Musk, is “a bit of an amphibian…”

    The amphibians learned how to leave the sea, populate the land, build electric cars and broadcast individual opinions far and wide.

    I have heard enough Muskisms to last a life time.

    Jeff, please just stick to the facts.

    Thank you.

    KNS

    Reporting what someone else said is very much in bounds as a “fact.”

    It’s a fact Musk said what he did. He was quoted in context.

    Failing to report it would actually constitute biased reporting.

    Can’t comply on that request, if that is what anyone wants.

    It would be one thing if I personally offered an opinion that the Volt was an amphibian. Actually I balanced Musk’s assertion noting it was subjective opinion, and offered facts in the Volt’s favor.

    I do not see any non-facts passed along.


  73. 73
    Steverino

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:28 pm)

    Regarding styling, the three times I have seen a Model S I was not sure if they even were a Tesla. To me, they look like a Ford or Toyota. I always have to do a double take to be certain it’s a Tesla and not a Ford/Toyota. Up close, they have a nice paint job. But styling? Nothing out of the ordinary in my opinion. Nice but not head turning. Same for the Volt. But that’s subjective.

    Comparing the fit and finish and interior of a $75-$100k car with a $35k car as Musk did smacks of misplaced elitism, the same as someone dissing your shoes because $1200 shoes are “better”. Besides, I think the Volt’s fit and finish and interior are very good.

    I’m taking nothing away from the Tesla, but I have driven my Volt on a fair number of one-day, long distance trips that would exceed the MS capabilities. Hence my statement that if the MS and the Volt were the same price, I would still buy the Volt for my primary car.


  74. 74
    Sean

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:32 pm)

    I have to agree with you guys.

    Why did Musk make a stupid comment about our car is better then the Volt.

    But I can understand why he would do so.

    So he doesn’t lose his money.

    Still in my opinion he should do more research before saying things like that.

    But on the positive side I hope he releases at least two new cars in the future and I do hope one of these new vehicles will be more affordable for the general public, have more electric range then the competition and like the Model S have the safest crash test then any car including Mercedes Benz.

    I hope he gets his Model X out sometime in the future I could see SUV lovers wanting to ride this baby.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_X

    The Future Is Electric!


  75. 75
    jeffhre

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:35 pm)

    Tall Pete:
    Truth of the matter is, Musk’s opinion is biased. Let’s see how the market will respond to the latest Volt price decrease now that it’s obvious GM’s technology is working flawlessly.

    Would be nice to see a point when you will say the same thing but finish with, “now that GM’s (marketing) is working flawlessly.”

    Well we can always hope anyway. NADA, the auto dealers, are looking to short circuit EV’s for a variety of reasons. And contending with that and other desultory issues will ensure that each of the incumbent automakers billions of dollars of resources and 100 years of experience will eventually be applied to EV’s. Though in a fashion that is a day late and a dollar short. That’s why we need companies like Tesla to keep pushing them along.

    Musk, having often said he is using Tesla not just to sell cars, but to proliferate EV technology to replace gas by “pushing them along,” could have simply said the three vehicles compete in different categories within differing classes of vehicle and left it at that. Though I suppose in one sense his criticisms could be seen as more of, pushing them along, as well.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:42 pm)

    kdawg:
    DonC,

    My fear is Tesla will take the nickle & dime approach.So you will have a base model Blue Star for $35K, and by the time you walk out the door it’s $50K.

    Not an issue right now, as I’ll be sitting on my money (and saving up more nickles & dimes), for the next 3 years.It will be an interesting time in 2016, to see what options are out there.

    Are you also in fear for BMW or Porsche as being nickel and dime based business models? That pricing scheme is what they are using. And one good reason why their inventory in stock is so light. Folks so often order what they what, at much higher than base price, rather then take what is on the dealer lot.


  77. 77
    jeffhre

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:48 pm)

    DonC: I’ll just point out what I always do. On voltstats.com the median Volt owner gets 175 MPG. Crushes the Prius like a grape. End. Of. Story.

    Ohhhhhh. That was a lot better than the example I used. A grape, LOL. I’ll have to remember that one, yes siree, a crushed grape, LOL


  78. 78
    jeffhre

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (1:51 pm)

    john1701a: The competition for Prius is ordinary traditional vehicles, buyers who would otherwise purchase a car like Camry or Corolla. Who is the market for Volt? How many times must that continue to be asked? What is its competition?

    Perhaps that is why so many are being traded in for Teslas and Volts?

    Each manufacturer has noted it’s high volume of conquest sales. Though with only prior 2300 Roadster sales, each Model S sale is a conquest by definition.


  79. 79
    Jackson

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (2:06 pm)

    John1701a is nothing but a miserable troll, haunting a place he can never belong; for the pointless purpose of stirrin’ the puddin’. You won’t convert him. He’s been doing this for years.

    Don’t give him the satisfaction of a response. Just vote him down, and move on.

    Maybe he’ll go haunt a Tesla site if we ignore him enough. Or a Nissan site. Or a Ford site …


  80. 80
    Bonaire

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (3:01 pm)

    john1701a: Let’s not overlook the reality of profit need. GM is making progress at reducing production cost. The entire amount in the recent $5,000 price drop has not been accounted for though. Tesla isn’t selling at a loss.There’s also the reality of the tax-credit expiring. Model S may be 4 times more expensive, but the credit available is the same as Volt, making it only 1/4 the purchase incentive. That dependency will impact Volt much more.

    They are absolutely selling at a loss. Cash-flow negative, GAAP accounting negative. No “true” profit made at all. Ever.


  81. 81
    Kup

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (3:09 pm)

    john1701a: The choice of battery-capacity prevented the sacrifice of seating & cargo room. It also positioned it to have a cost within the typical range of upgrade options, what we normally see among model differences.We know that Toyota is directly targeting mainstream consumers for profitable high-volume sales with Prius. Adding the choice of a plug but keeping the size to 4.4 kWh keeps it affordable. It also retained MPG, by keeping the influence of weight to a minimum.The competition for Prius is ordinary traditional vehicles, buyers who would otherwise purchase a car like Camry or Corolla. Who is the market for Volt? How many times must that continue to be asked? What is its competition?

    The market for the PiP is loyal Toyota customers that really have no clue what else is out there and, of course, Prius fan boys that consistently overstate the benefits of the Prius and understate/misunderstand the point of the Volt. As for the Volt’s market….you’ve been here how long and still don’t know the “typical” Volt owner? LOL!!! On the whole we are quite intelligent and well informed and laugh at people that actually, sincerely believe that the PiP is a better car than the Volt.

    And I don’t mean that as a dig at the PiP. If I had the need for a 5 seater with more cargo room than the Volt and I didn’t already own a Volt, I might seriously have considered it. But other than that is inferior in almost every thing that I would consider important.

    On a more serious note, feel free to respond or not, but hypothetically speaking, if a person has a 25 mile one way commute, of which 23 of those miles would be at highway speed, how much gasoline would be consumed in a PiP on that one way journey? Also, how much EV range would be available at the end of it?


  82. 82
    CaptJackSparrow

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (3:12 pm)

    I hate when totally different products are compared to one another.
    Makes a whole bunch of bulls|t!

    /I needabeernow……


  83. 83
    Kent

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (3:21 pm)

    Note to Elon: Since you’re comparing the Model S to the Volt, are you ready to sell me a Model S for $26,000 (after tax credits)? That’s what I paid for my last Volt. If so, please let me know. I’m only 10 miles from your factory and I’ve got the cash ready. I can pick it up today. What time do you close?


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    Raymondjram

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (3:31 pm)

    kdawg,

    So, if I buy a Chevy Spark EV, and stretch it as a EV limousine to seat six inside, will it now classify as a “large “vehicle”? ; – )

    That isn’t hard to do. It will get less range, but will be cheaper than buying a Model X (and solve the five-seat needs for many here)!

    Raymond


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (3:35 pm)

    john1701a: Wow!Taking about arguing semantics.

    Over 62 mph, the battery-pack continues to deliver a significant EV boost.At 65 mph, you’ll see efficiency over 100 MPG. So what if it’s not 999 MPG.Electricity from the plug is still being taken advantage of. The goal is significant consumption reduction is clearly delivered.

    As for the nonsense about 6 miles, that’s just blatant greenwashing.That EPA value does not represent capacity available.Claiming it does is intentional misleading.Owners routinely see between 12 and 15 miles from the 4.4 kWh battery-pack.

    Wow!Taking about arguing semantics.
    Over 99 mph, the battery-pack continues to deliver all of the propulsion power .At 65 mph, you’ll see efficiency over infinite MPG. So what if it’s not a mere 50 MPG when using the generator. Electricity from the plug is still being taken advantage of. The goal is significant consumption reduction is clearly delivered.
    As for the nonsense about 6 to 12 miles and some other plug-in owners routinely seeing between 12 and 15 miles from the 4.4 kWh battery-pack, unless their commute is between 4 to 25 miles, who cares? At below 25 miles significant gas can be saved by the 4.4kWh plug in. Above 25 compared to an average of 175 MPG it’s just greenwashing or like DonC said getting crushed like a grape.

    John, really the continued negative comparisons between two cars, that can save a lot of gas when used well, are unnecessary. THEY BOTH SAVE GAS.

    Overall though you must not have noticed the discussion was on the Tesla Model S, and not a take out your frustrations for a world of bashing on the Prii story. But that is your take all day every day so not sure why I bothered to intrude upon your apparent obsession on righting the universe for not giving the Prius it’s due.


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    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (3:41 pm)

    jeffhre: Are you also in fear for BMW or Porsche as being nickel and dime based business models?

    Nah.. I’ll never buy a BMW or Porsche


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (3:44 pm)

    Kup: And I don’t mean that as a dig at the PiP. If I had the need for a 5 seater with more cargo room than the Volt and I didn’t already own a Volt, I might seriously have considered it.

    Not me. I would have looked at the Energi’s.


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    kdawg

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (3:47 pm)

    Raymondjram: So, if I buy a Chevy Spark EV, and stretch it as a EV limousine to seat six inside, will it now classify as a “large “vehicle”? ; – )

    Hey I didn’t make the rules. But if you can stretch a Fiat, you can stretch a Spark.

    Fiat-limo3.jpg
    Fiat-limo2.jpg


  89. 89
    john1701a

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (3:54 pm)

    Jackson: Don’t give him the satisfaction of a response. Just vote him down, and move on.

    It never ceases to amaze me how smug some responses are. Crush like a grape? Really? Since when does that superiority attitude represent ordinary GM customers? Of course, just ignoring the problem enables it… giving silent approval. So, that isn’t good advice.

    Focusing on the goals of Gen2 would be the appropriate response. Notice how some are making an effort to guide discussions in that direction?


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (4:25 pm)

    The new 2014 Mazda 6 features reengineered paint that contains light reflective metallic. the Soul Red colour combines highlights, shade and depth that emphasize its dynamic shape. Because of this, the car can look quite different depending on the lighting and angle you are looking at it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfTEJZuelEE


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    Dave G

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (4:31 pm)

    George S. Bower: No doubt about it. Toyota really ‘ucked up with the PIP. Look at the sales numbers. They went the wrong direction on battery size.

    Here’s a well written article that explains why that happened:
    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1086374_does-toyotas-hybrid-leadership-blind-it-to-electric-cars


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    Noel Park

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (6:34 pm)

    kdawg: Nah.. I’ll never buy a BMW or Porsche

    #86

    That makes 2 of us. +1

    Slightly OT, but did anyone notice the news item about Walmart convening a big symposium of retailers and manufacturers to try to figure out ways to get more U.S. made products in their stores?

    I’m no fan of Walmart but, if they actually follow through with this, their standing will sure go up with me.


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (6:37 pm)

    john1701a: Jackson: Don’t give him the satisfaction of a response. Just vote him down, and move on.
    #89

    Works for me! -1


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (6:40 pm)

    Why don’t we just challenge Elon with a coast-to-coast race from NYC to LA………..
    Legal speed limit……….Winner takes all…………..Volt vs Tesla………..place your bets…….
    One driver…………stop or not…….sleep or not……at the finish the winning driver waits for the keys of the losing car……………..That will settle all the BS………..

    haroldC


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    joe

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (6:54 pm)

    Dave G,
    To Dave G @70
    ” Tesla’s goal is to accelerate the electrification of the automobile”. What is missing at the end of this statement is: for his company.

    The more I read about Elon Musk, the more I think he’s an egotistical person and I don’t hold much respect for such people. He’s not trying to get the electric car movement going faster like you claim. What he’s doing is degrade the competition so he can benefit from it.

    Sorry but I like to call an ace and ace.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UosLERkvjoU

    http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013/08/tesla-model-s-not-safest-car-ever-nhtsa.html

    http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/tesla-crash-test-rating-high-maker-claimed/story?id=20024779


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    George S. Bower

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (7:54 pm)

    haroldC:
    Why don’t we just challenge Elon with a coast-to-coast race from NYC to LA………..
    Legal speed limit……….Winner takes all…………..Volt vs Tesla………..place your bets…….
    One driver…………stop or not…….sleep or not……at the finish the winning driver waits for the keys of the losing car……………..That will settle all the BS………..

    haroldC

    That’s a first as comments go haroldc, never heard that one before. We should race from west coast to east. That way I can easily beat Noel to PHX…. :)
    +1


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:07 pm)

    haroldC,

    your idea could actually get national news media attention!! and we could beat Mark Z to the east coast.


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:22 pm)

    George S. Bower,

    l wouldn’t want to take Mark Z’s S from him, let Elon put a car on the line……………Put your money where your mouth is Mr Musk…….
    haroldC


  99. 99
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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:29 pm)

    haroldC:
    George S. Bower,

    l wouldn’t want to take Mark Z’s S from him, let Elon put a car on the line……………Put your money where your mouth is Mr Musk…….
    haroldC

    I see it more as a Rally.

    We get all Volt owners and all S owners gathered together at the start. Then we let fly with national news media coverage.

    A coast to coast race.


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    rdunniii

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:42 pm)

    My, my, my The mutual admiration society is in full swing here.

    “My apple is soooo much better than your orange”

    There is only one interview presented here. Add an interview with Carlos Goshn Leaf vs S vs Volt and an interview with Dan Akerson Volt vs S vs Leaf and then decide. Especially when you are judging CEO personalities. All CEOs have big egos, that is how they got the job.

    The Volt would not stand a chance vs an S in any slalom. A 2014 Corvette would not stand a chance vs a P85 S in a slalom.

    Elon has said his goal was not to make the best electric vehicle, it was to make the best vehicle, which happened to be electric. And I have not seen a metric by which he has failed to meet that objective, other than people who like to participate in Cannonball Runs.

    GM is not his competition, Bentley, Rolls Royce, BMW and Mercedes are.

    And the Volt is a transitional vehicle. In a hundred years there will be no more fossil fuel vehicles other than in museums and other collections. The question is, just how fast will the transition occur?


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:48 pm)

    joe:
    Dave G,

    The more I read about Elon Musk, the more I think he’s an egotistical person

    I think his being egotistical is justified.
    Every one said he would fail.
    Even Republican Congressman were against his space X effort even though what he did embodied the free market system that they all praise.

    Go Elon.


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    haroldC

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (8:50 pm)

    George S. Bower,

    Coast to coast race would certainly show which technology is superior….in a race.
    We know Tesla is more powerful….but the ability to go 4000 miles or so and keep up with a Volt might be a little complicated…….Maybe Elon will ask the Volt to wait a coupla years to get the Superchargers or swapstations installed…..lol
    Which car do you think would win a race now?
    haroldC


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    DonC

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:26 pm)

    haroldC:
    Why don’t we just challenge Elon with a coast-to-coast race from NYC to LA………..
    Legal speed limit……….Winner takes all…………..Volt vs Tesla………..place your bets…….
    One driver…………stop or not…….sleep or not……at the finish the winning driver waits for the keys of the losing car……………..That will settle all the BS………..

    Ha ha. No one will take the bet because from the Tesla side it would be an exercise in futility. There isn’t a single supercharger between Barstow in CA and Chicago. That’s a looooonnnggg way to go using J1772 AC charging. LOL

    If there were superchargers along the route the other way to make it not a race is to say you could go any speed. The Model S can’t go very fast because, if it does, it won’t make it to the next charging station. LOL I’m laughing but that’s serious. If you check the Tesla forum a guy I know did a trip from San Diego to Las Vegas and he spent the entire trip in the far right hand lane going put-put while every other car went whizzing by. ROTFL

    More seriously, the long distance travel is just a yarn spun by Elon. The Model S is a great car for local driving. It’s not in any way shape or form capable of long distance travel.


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:26 pm)

    rdunniii: GM is not his competition, Bentley, Rolls Royce, BMW and Mercedes are.

    For the Model S, correct, but Gen 3 is game on.


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:27 pm)

    George S. Bower,

    haroldC,

    I like the idea but not a legal speed limits, that’s no fun. Is battery swapping allowed?


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:31 pm)

    kdawg:
    George S. Bower,

    haroldC,

    I like the idea but not a legal speed limits,

    Nobody said anything about speed limits.
    The S crowd can go as fast as they want.


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:39 pm)

    rdunniii: The Volt would not stand a chance vs an S in any slalom. A 2014 Corvette would not stand a chance vs a P85 S in a slalom.

    The Model S would mostly be able to stay with the Vette 0-60 MPH. However, it couldn’t stay with it 0-100 and its 700 extra pounds make it far to heavy to stay with it in the corners. http://twinrev.com/cars/Tesla-Model-S-vs-Chevrolet-Corvette

    There are plenty of cars, including the Roadster, which are faster than the Model S. Nothing too surprising about this since the Model S is, after all, a sedan not a sports car, though there are plenty of sedans that would easily beat a Model S 0-60. At some point a lot of torque can’t make up for a lot more horsepower.


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (9:51 pm)

    I have to agree, mostly, with kdawg. CS mpg is nice, but MSRP, AER and then backseat legroom are all more important in the short term. Make slow improvements in the MSRP, AER and the rear seat leg room and CS mpg can come along later.
    Lets be real, where is the real savings? It is in keeping the genset off as much as possible, not in reducing the genset mpg that is used less than 20% of the time for most Volt owners, especially when that combined mpg for the Volt is higher than all of its compact competition, other than the hybrids.

    kdawg: No, I don’t notice that many.“Clearly”?When is anything “enough”.I wan’t more EV range.Is 40miles of AER enough, yeah, most of the time, but more is better.If GM gets the Volt to 50mpg in RE mode, fine, but not that important (or as important as you make it out to be).More EV range easily trumps it along with price reductions.If GM can kill 3 birds with 1 stone, great, but I don’t want them to compromise EV range or price reduction to get a higher MPG in RE mode.


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:32 pm)

    kdawg,

    OK…sure, battery swapping allowed and no speed limit……no holds barred…..time in jail doesn’t count……two drivers…….any route…….now that’s a race!!!!!
    haroldC


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (10:41 pm)

    DonC: At some point a lot of torque can’t make up for a lot more horsepower.

    The base 2014 Corvette Stingray’s 6.2-liter V-8 makes 455 horsepower and 460 lb-ft of torque.

    Tesla Model S Performance has a peak of 416 horsepower and 443 lb-ft of torque.

    Close. I wonder at what speed/distance the Vette would take over.


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    Bonaire

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:11 pm)

    George S. Bower: I think his being egotistical is justified.Every one said he would fail.Even Republican Congressman were against his space X effort even though what he did embodied the free market system that they all praise.Go Elon.

    He is currently failing to produce profit without the aid of ZEV and government credits and without the aid of fancy non-GAAP accounting of taking on new debt to pay back the DoE loan. The accounting gimmickry of Q2 is worse than Q1. If free market is to raise all sorts of funds and spawn a cult stock following for a really nice but niche luxury EV, then he’s successful. But he is nothing more than a good businessman who got a deal on a factory and moved from hand-made roadsters to robot-made saloon cars. I think success is no ZEV, no fancy non-GAAP accounting and profits with a growth potential. Still a stock play at this point and at 20K cars a year, perhaps as much as 22K this year, but with simply a marketing “position” for next year and then the next, it’s hard to say if Tesla will “really” succeed or is just a Walt Disney project at this point. Off course WD was successful but much of his success came long after he handed over the keys to his family to continue with. WD’s tomorrowland is where Musk is trying to go. Lots of CapEx and OpEx ahead of him. Might work out but the price of the cars is exclusionary.


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    Aug 22nd, 2013 (11:28 pm)

    DonC: The Model S would mostly be able to stay with the Vette 0-60 MPH. However, it couldn’t stay with it 0-100 and its 700 extra pounds make it far to heavy to stay with it in the corners. http://twinrev.com/cars/Tesla-Model-S-vs-Chevrolet-Corvette

    Slalom, not straight line. The S has better compliance in the corners. It would be an interesting matchup.


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (1:42 am)

    Tim Hart:
    You don’t hear GM dissing Tesla or the other electric options. Elon definitely dropped down a level. The idea is to get more electrics on the road no matter who builds or buys them!

    Didn’t GM trademark “range anxiety”?


  114. 114
    Richard Joash Tan

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (5:44 am)

    DonC:
    Who cares about Tesla? Tesla sells toys for boys. If you have $100K for an electric car that you can use for local driving it’s the best (and only until the i8 arrives) the choice. But for a mainstream car that can deliver the Volt/Ampera is the clear winner. The Volt crushes the Prius, which used to be the leader in the space, like a grape. It has far better performance, much better handling, a much smoother and quieter ride, and gets far better gas mileage. Now with the price cut IT COSTS LESS. If you have access to a plug then the only reason you’d buy a Prius rather than a Volt is that you’re brain dead, have an affinity for 8 track tapes, or work for Toyota.

    GM wanted the Volt to be a Prius killer. It is. Now they just need to market it that way.

    You’re joking, right? Who cares what the MPG is in CS Mode? If the Volt delivered 50 MPG I’d have used 7 more gallons of gas over the last 28 months. Big deal. Contrary to what you’re claiming, MPG in CS Mode is way down on the list of what Volt owners care about. It’s a lot more important to you than to us since it’s your last remaining bullet point in favor of the Prius. LOL

    I’ll just point out what I always do. On voltstats.com the median Volt owner gets 175 MPG. Crushes the Prius like a grape. End. Of. Story.

    but for me the Model S crushes the Ampera for EVERYTHING!!!!!!!


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    Richard Joash Tan

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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (5:46 am)

    nasaman:
    It’s yesterday’s topic, I know, but here’s today’s news: “Always able to find itself at the center of controversy, Tesla’s latest PR stunt has earned it a slap on the wrist by a Federal safety agency. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has released a statement in rebuttal to Tesla‘s claim that the Model S is the safest car ever and that it earned a “new combined record of 5.4 stars” according to a Tesla release”…* —So Elon also went overboard on safety in NHTSA’s view.


    * http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013/08/tesla-model-s-not-safest-car-ever-nhtsa.html

    WHY DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND?! THE MODEL S SHOULD BE THE WINNER IN EUROPE INSTEAD OF THE AMPERA!!!


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    Aug 23rd, 2013 (5:50 am)

    I AM GETTING ANNOYED BY THIS! And you know why? THE MODEL S SHOULD BE THE WINNER IN EUROPE INSTEAD OF THE AMPERA BECAUSE I AM BIASED WITH THAT! AND SHOULD THE MODEL S WIN THE GREEN MOBILITY TROPHY NEXT YEAR?!?!?!


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    john1701a

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    Aug 24th, 2013 (7:39 pm)

    Ziv: Lets be real, where is the real savings?

    Based on the standard measure of 15,000 miles per year:

    500 gallons = 30 MPG
    375 gallons = 40 MPG -> 125 gallons less
    300 gallons = 50 MPG -> 75 gallons less
    250 gallons = 60 MPG -> 50 gallons less
    214 gallons = 70 MPG -> 36 gallons less
    188 gallons = 80 MPG -> 26 gallons less
    167 gallons = 90 MPG -> 21 gallons less
    150 gallons = 100 MPG -> 17 gallons less
    136 gallons = 110 MPG -> 14 gallons less
    125 gallons = 120 MPG -> 11 gallons less
    115 gallons = 130 MPG -> 10 gallons less
    107 gallons = 140 MPG -> 8 gallons less
    100 gallons = 150 MPG -> 7 gallons less

    The reality of diminishing returns is quite clear. The benefit of saving drops off significantly. Even without a graph to illustrate, it’s very easy to see beyond 70 MPG doesn’t accomplish much.

    Take a look at goals. Serious consideration need must be made. Delivering a higher capacity sounds very appealing; however, being real means acknowledging the tradeoff of expense, weight, and space.

    A balance of priorities cannot include such large penalty. Without achieving a large gain, what’s the point?