Dr. Lyle Dennis, the founder of this Web site, GM-Volt.com, which once upon a time contributed to GM’s decision to build the Chevy Volt, is trading in his 2011 Volt for a Ford C-Max Energi.
The only reason, he says, is the pending five-seat Ford plug-in hybrid has room for his wife and three growing children, whereas the Volt is a four-seater.
Lyle noted further that his wife used to have a three-row SUV but wanted a Nissan Leaf. Now that they have the Leaf, the two-EV family needs a five-seat long hauler, he said, and observed otherwise the Volt has been a great car.
Have you driven a Ford … lately?
“I have had the honor of owning the eighth unit off the production line since December of 2010,” wrote Dennis yesterday on his new blog site, InsideEVs. “So far I have driven the car 14,000 miles with a lifetime 190 mpg. It has been a fun high tech and dependable car. In fact I always imagined I would own the car for 20 or 30 years. That is until this summer.”
Lyle created a buyer list of 54,632 names from 97 countries that as it was growing helped convince GM the Volt would be viable, and eventually earning him a spot on GM’s Volt Consumer Advisory Board.
He was given opportunity to meet with, interview and in cases become friends with GM engineers, executives, and many others involved with – or cheering on – the Volt’s expedited development from 2007-2010.
Writing of the C-Max Energi decision, Lyle said he was surprised and disappointed when he first learned the Volt’s large T-shaped battery pack impeded rear seat room, eliminating the rear middle spot. But next month, Ford is launching the new plug-in hybrid he said, which should meet his family’s needs.
“The vehicle is a small wagon or crossover design and has a 7.5-kwh lithium battery pack mounted below and behind the seats,” said Lyle. “It offers a real world EV-only driving range of at least 20 miles (down from the [2011] Volt’s roughly 36 miles). However in hybrid mode, the Ford delivers an impressive 47 mpg combined city/highway mileage, way up from the Volt’s 37 mpg. The car is also reasonably priced at $33,745 before a $3,750 tax rebate.”
On Friday, after having long pondered changes at GM, I offered a longish commentary discussing how little GM was willing to divulge about its plans for Voltec technology.
The positive news is GM says it wants to continue with Voltec development and is contemplating other models. The possibly frustrating part for some who have believed in Voltec is GM has not yet said anything solid about introducing lower priced variants. Instead it is developing a more-expensive variant, the Cadillac ELR, which may likely be a four-seater also.
Volt Advisory Board. Lyle Dennis is fourth in on the left.
It has often been suggested here that GM should show as much boldness now as it did in bringing the Volt to market. Various and repeated Volt enthusiast requests have been for GM to strike while it still has the lead and perhaps announce a Voltec crossover, a lower priced Volt version, a high-performance model, and so on.
Last year at an industry conference in Washington, GM’s former Volt media representative, Rob Peterson gave a speech touting GM’s policy of communications “transparency” during the dark days leading to and after its 2009 bankruptcy. With regard to the Volt, Peterson, who is now working in another capacity for GM communications, said this aided GM’s credibility and it was the beginning of a public perception turnaround that bought GM great faith from early adopters eager to see the Volt succeed.
But GM’s Voltec communications policy has since subtly shifted. Although it has not come out and stated a non-transparent policy, it is playing it conservative while the Volt has faced and seems to be overcoming much politicized criticism.
While saying he still likes the Volt, and conceding the C-Max Energi may not go as far on electric power nor is it as aesthetically pleasing, Lyle said the Ford is simply more practical for him.
“I am grateful to GM for launching the plug-in revolution, and I have enjoyed my two years of Volt driving. Change however is an inevitable fact of life,” said Lyle. “After all the Volt’s greenlighting GM CEO Rick Wagoner is long gone, vehicle line executive Frank Weber is at BMW, vehicle line director Tony Posawatz is CEO of Fisker, and Volt spokesperson Rob Peterson is gone from the Volt team. And so it is that the Volts number one fan, and founder of GM-Volt.com has no choice but to trade in his car.”
In making this decision, Lyle said nothing actually negative about the Volt, and continues to believe in its technology.
Many others do too, and some hope to see a five-seater and other models priced down-market from the Volt, not just up. When this will be, is something GM has yet to announce.
As for Lyle’s announcement, I asked, and he said he would accept offers for his Volt. Anyone interested in buying Lyle’s VIN #8 Volt can hit him up at Lyle.dennis@gmail.com
This entry was posted on Tuesday, October 9th, 2012 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+32
Oct 9th, 2012 (6:43 am)Lyle’s choice is understandable; 3 kids says it all
Personally, I would have traded in the Nissan Leaf, but it could be that he wants to keep a BEV in the game.
The Leaf is not selling as well as Nissan had hoped, and it will be interesting to see what is discovered in their upcoming focus groups. That the PiP PHEV is also outselling the Leaf suggests that vehicle range between charging may be significant.
One possible market niche for G.M. might be to introduce a plug-in Sonic with 10 or so miles of electric range. This might allow a price point more consumers are accustomed to.
In the current hyper-competitive global economy, G.M. cannot be faulted too much for playing their cards close to the chest. Dan Akerson recently spoke to the importance of secrecy on a corporation-wide con call after a video was leaked by an employee.
Regardless of the outcome of the U.S. elections, it is too late for the oil and gasoline refiners (and their bought and paid for politicians) to kill plug-in electric vehicles. They are here to stay, and G.M. will be bringing more PHEVs to market.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Bush-feb07.jpg
+12
Oct 9th, 2012 (7:08 am)Whilst I would love to know all about up-coming models for the Volt and other vehicles in the works, this does not help sell current vehicles. E.g. To say, wait 6 months and you get a battery which is now guaranteed for 20 years will kill sales.
The transparency the first time around was deliberate, as there was no product the transparency could hurt. Why have there not been a multitude of variants? After the investment into the Volt, sales really are not at levels to recoup investment just yet. Just about every manufacture with an EV project would be feeling this pinch. The market is growing in leaps and bounds, but its just not competing with the ICE market to any great extent yet. Why spend another billion on a car that will have the same limited sales. It’s coming, be patient.
With regards to Lyles choice, Ford supporters will probably milk this for all its worth.
+8
Oct 9th, 2012 (7:47 am)While I understand that change does happen, a suggestion to him is to purchase a used small suv. He has a 13 year old who will soon be driving. The suv can be the teenagers car, and he and his wife can keep the volt and leaf, and when a road trip is needed they can take the suv. Works for my family. If they are sure about the ford then he get the ford, mom gets the volt, kid gets the leaf. Another solution! Have a good day and keep being American fueled!
+15
Oct 9th, 2012 (7:51 am)So, in the final analysis, Lyle’s wife wears the EV pants.
Good luck Lyle. Thanks for the site.
+14
Oct 9th, 2012 (8:05 am)Maybe we’ll hear from Lyle again with Gen 2.0, assuming they’ll figure out how to get the third seat in there. Thanks for all you’ve done….
MrEnergyCzar
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (8:32 am)I guess we will find out what the resale value on a Volt is. Good luck w/the C-max Lyle. (Did you consider a VIA truck
)
+14
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:04 am)Hey Lyle,
Thanks for the incredible amount of energy and passion that you’ve invested in the Volt. Without your efforts (and Volt Nation 1.0), I sincerely doubt that the Volt would have made it past the concept level.
Having seen your beautiful family, I guess the celibacy option didn’t get toooo much consideration (g).
Be well and again, thanks for everything,
Tagamet
+4
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:06 am)It really smarts that one of the main reasons the Volt got off the ground, Lyle Dennis, is saying goodbye to his Volt but family surely out trumps cars, even our beloved Volt! But look what the Volt has inspired–a lot more EV options and that is a very good thing.
+17
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:08 am)I am glad that Ford is getting into the plug in game, nothing says success like Competition!
The Volt is still king in my eyes, but nothing bad can come from Ford help grow the marke and expand the consumer market for plug ins…
maybe this will also kick GM into rolling out its cross over / mini SUV version of the volt!
+5
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:14 am)Leon Musk designed the Tesla Model S and X with additional seating for larger families. He has 5 sons and decided to build the car to hold seven. The X has extra room for pets behind the rear seat (a perfect Presidential car for either party.)
Now, if Lyle’s choice doesn’t give GM a wake up call to get busy on designing Gen II with additional seating, then Bob Lutz can provide those who need more room with an E-Rev Via Motors VTRUX.
http://www.viamotors.com/lineup/
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:25 am)Lyle, did you consider waiting for the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV? Personally, I’m happier with you buying a Ford/US product, especially since I’ve personally worked on a lot of the equipment in that plant, but was just curious. Would it behoove GM to come out with a wagon-style Volt, similar to the C-Max, or an SUV-style car like the Equinox? I’m asking which is more desirable to you as someone with 3 kids.
+5
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:30 am)I’m sorry to see Lyle give up his Volt but I understand. I have only two kids, so my Volt works for our family although it’s only me in the car to and from work 90% of the time. We have an old minivan as our family hauler which we plan to replace by next summer. I was hoping for a Voltec mini-van type vehicle for the ’14 model year but I’m pretty sure that’s not going to happen. Since we want a 3rd row seat, it looks like we’re forced into another ICE vehicle until next time.
Still love my Volt – 11 1/2 months old, 11,200 miles, only 38 gallons of gasoline used.
+4
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:30 am)The C Max is kind of an interesting car and with 3 kids I guess this decision makes sense.
Sounds like #8 will be a collectors item…..can’t wait to see who gets it.
Thx for everything you did for the Volt along the way Lyle. I really enjoyed the trip!!!
+4
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:40 am)Personally, I would have kept the Volt, but, I don’t have that large of a family (just us old folks) living with me anymore.
Looking forward to an op-ed from Lyle after he has the Ford for a while.
What does a used Volt sell for these days? I can’t find any for less than a new one!
+21
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:43 am)All I can say is thank you Lyle for spreading the word and helping America move off of foreign oil. The most corrosive force in the world today is oil, foreign oil. Thank you. I like every EV rolling off the line. The Volt is perfect for me. Me and my daughter sit in the front and wow the efficiency. Next up is the Volt will be a hand me down to my college daughter in a few years. Then I’m stepping into a Tesla S made in USA or a Caddy ELR. The deals on the Volt are pretty astounding though, so I’m hedging my bets for another Volt as a backup. Thank God EVs came in my lifetime. As a former Airman, and my wife served by my side, and I her side, we thank you Lyle. Run for Congress – we need people like you serving.
+3
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:50 am)It would be interesting, Lyle, if you could post some technical pics and descriptions.
While 20 miless ER is a good starting place, there are lots of possible topics that can come from the FMC effort.
GM engineers could also provide us with comparative statements, (meant to be positive, of course), regarding the two technologies. Patent and Trade Laws force these differences for the most part, so we can objectively appreciate the staring places that FMC needed to begin with..
Thanks for the years of scholarship, Lyle!!
Dan.
+7
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:52 am)P.S., I became a Volt owner following Lyle’s commitment to seeing EV’s launch in the modern world and create jobs and energy choices for the host nation beyond another War in the Middle East. I couldn’t be happier. The Volt has TWICE the efficiency of a Prius, and that frankly shocked me. I was just hoping to see 40ish MPG with the Volt. I’m averaging 91 MPG and cheap electricity (made in USA energy) solves the rest. This car will pay for itself.
I see his dilemma though. I’m 50 and my kids are driving their own cars except for my 11 year old. If I had kids of age, the Ford- C-Max looks like a sparkling choice. I don’t think I’d drive a Tesla S in NY area personally either without the bigger battery. Here in Colorado, I think the Tesla is a great choice and hope to have one in the garage, or the Caddy, or another Volt. I’m all in on EVs and that incredibly smooth, reliable drive. Thank you Lyle.
Oct 9th, 2012 (10:03 am)Have fun with it. You can see why he looked at the C-Max if you have children. Less sporty than the Volt perhaps, but more utilitarian for those hauling kids or extended family. http://www.ford.com/cars/cmax/hybridgames/
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (10:23 am)Thank you for creating this magnificent website ! Good luck with your Ford enjoy ev’s!
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (10:25 am)Circumstances change, and you have to do what’s best for your situation. While I am sad to see such a strong advocate of the Volt move on, I’m much more grateful to Lyle for this website and his many contributions that helped bring this amazing car to reality.
Thank you Lyle and enjoy the C-Max. I’m eager to hear of your impressions of it.
+3
Oct 9th, 2012 (10:26 am)I have posted on the forums some news on the 2014 Impala, which will be produced on the same line as the Volt: http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?17604
I hope GM will consider putting the Voltec system in the Impala next year. As soon as this happens, all the present Volt owners and fans can buy the best five-seater EREV on the market! Maybe Dr. Lyle Dennis will consider leasing the Ford and return it when the EREV Impala comes out.
Raymond
Oct 9th, 2012 (10:33 am)Ah the EV world is changing so quickly! Lyle is gone and Shai Agassi of Better Place has been fired as CEO. GM’s entire original Volt team is gone and they went from a winning transparent strategy to a completely closed one.
It also looks like the Plug in Prius just might overtake Volt’s sales next year, looking at the rates of growth. Perhaps the smaller battery decision (far less cost) was the right strategy to take in order to get the price low enough to get the volumes up, which further lowers the cost.
They can always up the size of the battery in later years, as the costs continue to drop.
Ford is going to love this bit of news! Even Lyle defected! Damn.
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (10:37 am)Fox news running the story. Title is a little nasty, but story does not have the hatchets I was expecting. Has a link to HybridCars.com, but just mentions “GM-Volt.com” — no link.
“Chevy Volt superfan trading his in for a Ford”
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/10/09/chevy-volt-superfan-trading-his-in-for-ford/?intcmp=features#ixzz28oROLKzq
moderator: not sure if this is appropriate…
+24
Oct 9th, 2012 (10:52 am)Hello everyone and thanks for the well wishes and sympathetic understanding. This was not an easy decision for me but if you read my original report you can see why:
http://insideevs.com/why-im-trading-in-my-chevy-volt-for-a-ford-c-max-energi/
Now that we have a LEAF I need a five seater for long distances. This is in no way a slant against GM its just that they don’t offer the vehicle I need yet. I can’t afford to wait for them or someone else to bring one to market. The Ford will be here next month.
I am so grateful to this community for keeping me going the years I waited for my Volt. and grateful to GM for launching the revolution which has now led to choices in the plugin market.
Oct 9th, 2012 (10:57 am)I too am a little sad to see our founding father give up his Volt, although quite understandable. I myself have always been a bigger fan of Fords than GM since I have had better experiences with Ford. That being said, until Ford puts out a 40+ mile range EREV, I’ll stick with my Volts. I live in the suburbs of the SF Bay Area and a 20 mile EV range just won’t do for my family. We have already experienced a little EV range anxiety with our 2012 Volt, which was somewhat alleviated by the extra few miles in our 2013 Volt. Once I have experienced 40+ miles, I just can’t go backwards.
That being said, I like the looks of the C-Max. Give me 40+ EV miles and I’ll trade in the Mustang.
+5
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:03 am)That fifth passenger requirement is likely vetoing more sales than one might think. Most of the time 4 is plenty, but just like battery range, sometimes a little more is needed.
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:07 am)Kent,
Range axiety about the gas engine starting up doesn’t really count unless you drive around with an empty tank on purpose. If that’s the case, you deserve it.
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:15 am)Will there be an fmc-energi.com web site?
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:16 am)Not at all…my version of range anxiety exists because I don’t want to use any gas at all. I know I’ll never be stranded.
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:30 am)Super gasoline is now over $5 per gallon here in Santa Barbara. The more EV’s the better.
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:33 am)Congrats to Lyle on his new ride!
Having the Volt and the Leaf, and watching my all range on the Leaf shrink, the far better plan would have been to replace the Leaf with the Energi. I’m assuming the reason this didn’t happen is that it’s easier to sell a car you own than to get out of a lease.
The Energi is somewhat Volt like in that you can force it into an EV only mode good for 20 miles, more or less. If your commute is short, and I believe Lyle’s new commute is, and you don’t have much highway driving, then the difference between a Volt and an Energi won’t be that significant. Plus the Energi gets great gas mileage on the highway. All in all a great choice for his situation as I understand it.
In some ways the Energi is what the PIP should have been. Too bad because Toyota has a large customer base and it would have been cool to move some big numbers for a car which is this electrified.
+3
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:42 am)Not quite. Andrew Farah was Chief Engineer for Volt 1.0 and has been selected for 2.0 as well.
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:46 am)This is “gas-anxiety”. It’s when you get nervous you might use some gas
FYI – Just hit 2000 miles on my Volt. Still haven’t bought gas.
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:48 am)#7
Hi guy. All the best. +1
+4
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:54 am)#31
Thank God for little favors. +1
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:58 am)As to today’s story, I am reminded of what the late, great, Jim Healy said so often:
“Comment………………………………………………………………….. No Comment!”
+5
Oct 9th, 2012 (12:01 pm)So how many miles do you drive in a day? If less than 40 the Volt is still a much better choice.
Combined highway only makes a difference if you intent to be driving significantly more than 40 miles routinely.
I think Dennis should have traded in the Leaf. The Ford may have a extra seat in the back but not much more room and can’t match the Volts performance. I personally think a Chrysler mini van is still the best choice for families with a plug in Volt for daily running.
Oct 9th, 2012 (12:21 pm)Wondering is this related to new ford marketing strategy (attaching GM at grass root levels and get the GM asset ( the American enthusiast community )
questions will be like
Why leaf was not traded ? ( more interior space ?, 5 th seat ? )
Why not Prius V ? ( non american ?? )
Why not back to a full size 7 passenger as this 5 seat is again going to cramp the kids
The fact is with Lyle publishing this , Ford was getting a free marketing for the Cmax with pointing advantage as more space, 5 seat, more CS mpg ,family friendly etc
Yes I too agree the ideal product for families is a minivan with or without a plug ( i really dont know why none are working to get a hybrid version. I think dodge doesn’t have hybrid technology.
+3
Oct 9th, 2012 (12:23 pm)I think he just has new-car-itis……………..
Otherwise he would have kept the Volt and dumped the Leaf for the Ford. Then he would have two electric vehicles that have no range anxiety!
But it is his money, and he can spend it however he pleases.
JMHO
+4
Oct 9th, 2012 (12:47 pm)Thanks again, Lyle, for all you have done to encourage and guide GM into making the Volt the fantastic car it is.
Hope to see a really in depth comparison of the two cars, once you have enough real world experience with the Ford.
It will be great to see an honest, unbiased, report on the Ford. I am a little skeptical of the 47 mpg claim, my ’99 Dodge Caravan was rated 27 highway, but only gets about 19 at real freeway speeds. It will also be nice to hear whether you can keep the Ford in “all electric” mode under normal driving, and what kind of real world range it gets.
Hope you don’t suffer too much from VSS. (Volt Separation Syndrome)
+6
Oct 9th, 2012 (12:55 pm)Good luck Dr. Dennis, the Ford C-Max Energi is a neat car. I looked at the C-Max here in West Michigan a couple weeks ago. The C-Max didn’t have the cargo capacity I was seeking, that is, enough space to accommodate four adults with large suitcases. However, for two adults or a small family with the backseat entirely or partially lowered, the C-Max cargo space is greater. Passenger seating is comfortable with plenty of space.
The C-Max Hybrid Energi Plug-In specs show less cargo capacity than the C-Max Hybrid-only version because of the Energi’s larger battery pack. The Hybrid-only 47 mpg city & and highway ratings look very good, the Energi’s MPGs are even better. The C-Max’s ICE performance specs look good with greater horsepower and torque. Maybe the larger Mitsubishi plug-in SUV, whenever it arrives, will help fill the gap for those like myself looking for a plug-in with greater cargo carrying ability.
I’ve a friend who leases a Volt for his daily 30 mile roundtrip commute. He enjoys the Volt and five days a week uses zero gas, estimates he’s spending $1.50/day in electricity costs, recharges at his office and at home. He has two young children and said the Volt’s cargo capacity eventually could become an issue. Nonetheless, he’s optimistic GM’s Voltec platform will continue to improve with greater capacity and availability in larger vehicles. The Volt’s high cost continues to be a turn off for many folks even with rebate incentives.
Attached is a link with video to a recent sad television news report from Holland, Michigan about furloughs at LG-Chem’s new Volt battery manufacturing plant.
http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/local/ottawa_county/LG-Chem-plant-workers-on-furloughs
+4
Oct 9th, 2012 (1:00 pm)I don’t remember a story from Lyle about his wife getting the Leaf. Anything ever go up in the past few years? Fox would have run that story too such as “Volt site moderator’s wife causing marital stress by driving the competition…divorce possible” (if written by chief actor Neil Cavuto)
Thanks for the site, Lyle. Though I do feel that in some small way, this is a ploy for attention than for a necessary family problem to solve. If you wanted to go on a trip with the kids – rent a mini-van
How many days a week will you drive the C-Max to the offices alone? Reminds me of my neighbor who has a commuter car, two motor cycles and a pickup truck where he uses the pickup truck about once a month and keeps it in the garage the rest of the time. He leases the pickup rather than renting once in a while when he needs to haul something. Not the best economical model but we all spend our money in our own ways. Good to be an American with lots of choices.
Sadly, though, it appears you’re going to be yet another doctor on the road driving two foreign cars if the C-Max Energi is indeed made in Mexico like the Hybrid is.
I may get negatives for this post. I do hope you know people may feel a little betrayed or saddened by your relatively quick jump from the Volt you spent so much time promoting through 2010+.
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (1:03 pm)Remember the EPA changed the way it rates cars in 2008. You can go here to read about it and also look at the revised value of your 1998 Caravan.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (1:07 pm)Read the original story here. He had a bad renting experience.
http://insideevs.com/why-im-trading-in-my-chevy-volt-for-a-ford-c-max-energi/
Oct 9th, 2012 (1:11 pm)I agree! I think Dr. Dennis just likes to drive the newest thing, and has the money to trade cars often. Quite honestly I like the looks of the Ford C-max and so glad to see another American maker enter the market. If I had the finances that Dr. Dennis obviously has, I’d love to get one to replace my wife’s ’97 Chrysler Van, but for my commuting to work the 20 mile AER just would’nt work for me, plus I don’t need more seats to go to work and back. Back to Dr. Lyle, he’ll likely be back if Chevy builds the MPV5 with a 40 mile AER.
+4
Oct 9th, 2012 (1:22 pm)Let’s see what happens post Oct 15th when the Volt line starts up again. And how come no one is bashing Ford for not selling its Focus EV that is suppose to use batteries from the same plant? Oh, that’s right, Ford isn’t tied to President Obama, but somehow GM is (sigh)
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (1:35 pm)————————————————————————————
Here is an article with a different point of view:
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/mobile_opinion/x738672703/OUR-VIEW-Patience-Local-battery-plants-are-hardly-a-bust?zc_p=1
-2
Oct 9th, 2012 (1:50 pm)Not bad experience, bad renting plan. When going on a Sunday multi-day trip, you pickup rentals on Saturday to make sure you have one. I side (a little bit) on “user error” here. It’s not a big enough reason to do the move. He’s involved in another “open” EV site, he wants to continue to try new stuff and be able to talk about the experience. This is a reason or perhaps excuse to get a new car. No big deal – just needs to admit it. If the Volt sale/trade is entirely based on the rental experience, I have doubts.
Oct 9th, 2012 (2:04 pm)#41
Probably not, LOL. +1
+3
Oct 9th, 2012 (2:05 pm)Right now, the Voltec gen 1 powertrain is too expensive to be made on other vehicles. Building a $40,000 MPV 5 vehicle, with a 20 mile electric range, limited cargo-space, at best 5 person capacity, is not very wise. Gen 2 Voltec powertrain, will be less expensive, be made on other vehicles, have a longer range, and allowing more then 5 people capacity.
+3
Oct 9th, 2012 (2:06 pm)#$47
That’s the bottom line IMHO. +1
Oct 9th, 2012 (2:11 pm)When will you take delivery of your Ford C-Max Energi? December? November? January?
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (2:39 pm)All I have to say is thank God I don’t have any kids yet. I would hate to have to trade in my Volt. I doubt the Ford will be as much fun.
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (2:47 pm)Thanks Noel.
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Oct 9th, 2012 (3:01 pm)Hey another angle for Cavuto! “Chevy Volt prevents couples from having kids. Divorce imminent.”
Oct 9th, 2012 (3:22 pm)What’s the warranty on the C-Max Energi? 8-year 100K miles?
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (3:43 pm)Lyle – thank you for your pioneering work with this site as well as being part of the inaugural Volt CAB.
Noe about the PiP sales hoopla…
What everyone needs to realize with respect to PiP sales figure is the single occupant HOV lane access granted in California. I don’t have the sales breakdown to see how many PiPs were sold in California, but I’m willing to bet big that majority of them are running around here. I drive my Volt to work, just a mile away from Toyota’s Torrance HQ, and I know for fact that Toyota made numerous PiPs available to its employees who are taking advantage of the HOV lane access. How do I know this? I befriended a Toyota marketing person who I see daily at the ChargePoint EVSE.
It was a brilliant move by Toyota getting the HOV access. They certainly seem to know the ins-and-outs at CARB and SCAQMD. Without this perk, PiP sales would be a fraction of what they are now. Of course GM also received a much needed sales boost with 2012+ Volts receiving the same HOV lane privilege.
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (3:53 pm)Howdy stranger. Any chance of a Volt in your future? I know of a lightly used Volt with single owner, 14k miles, low vin#
+6
Oct 9th, 2012 (3:59 pm)There are two kinds of people who post to this website. There are people who want to see success for the Volt ONLY and there are people who want to see success for all clean energy technology. I’m of the second type.
When Lyle takes possession of the C-Max Energi he will have purchased three energy saving plug in vehicles. That’s three more than most people.
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (4:09 pm)No sympathy here for you Lyle!
A family man does what he needs to do for the family. If that’s what you need for the family then go for it! That’s just “Normal” so you get nothing special from me for being normal……..lol
I am personally looking closer at the C-Max Energi for the lead foot wife of mine. I figure the 20AER she’ll get at least 12AER and that’s how long her commute is.
Maybe after her “Men-on-Pause” is done she’ll drive better?
Lyle, keep us updated on what your experience is on this PHEV or is it PHV….potato potahttoe…..
/Ford had bad timing, they shudda rolled the C-Max Energi out this month with $4.80/G gas!!!
+3
Oct 9th, 2012 (4:13 pm)I agree and I favor the electrification of our transportation, but in my case I can’t get any EV locally! I have more envy of you guys and gals than you could guess. My best chance is the 2013 Malibu Eco (with eAssist) for $27,000 at my local GM dealer. Other than that, I could betray my GM loyalty and buy an import hybrid, but I rather keep my 20 MPG Regal, drive less, and keep waiting, which is what I am doing.
Raymond
+4
Oct 9th, 2012 (4:14 pm)From one Volt Fan to another, I salute you, Dr. Dennis.
I see the issue you now face: the Leaf has the space but not the range, and the Volt has the range but not the space.
Will be looking forward to reading about your experience with the C-Max Energi, and hopefully we’ll also get to read about what replaces your Leaf.
Best wishes, and thanks for creating this site.
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (5:09 pm)Lyle, good luck on your new hybrid. Hope to hear more from it in the near future.
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (6:10 pm)I applaud Ford for tripling the AER of the Prius, but as you can see from the chart below, it’s still short of what’s required. I think GM hit the sweet spot with 40miles of AER.
(from Voltstats.net)
Oct 9th, 2012 (6:28 pm)color me suspicious but i sense that there is commerce afoot! lyle could have kept the volt and replaced the leaf. i mean, even setting aside the issue of reduced battery capacity, when you are driving a BEV and run the charge level down (which is a lot easier to do during the colder months), you are literally out of commission for hours.
there is greater commercial value to ford if lyle dennis trades in a chevrolet volt to purchase a ford than if he bought the ford outright. thus, the “announcement” is not surprising because there is a segment for which the announcement has the import of a “celebrity” endorsement.
i don’t begrudge anyone trying to make a buck and think it would be a good idea for lyle dennis to cash in on the value of his opinions, but i find it hard to buy the explanation being presented at face value.
Oct 9th, 2012 (6:51 pm)Huh? I thought the PIP got an AER of 12? The Energi get’s 20 AER……..doesn’t it?
/I could be wrong
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (6:55 pm)there are other practical reasons why gm hit the “sweet spot” with their battery range and that has to do with recharge time.
i think that the reality is that most buyers of electric cars are going to charge them from a 120v outlet – i don’t think that the typical, non-enthusiast, buyer is going to rewire his residence for a dedicated charging station for their car. at a 120v charging rate, you can drive the volt, run down the charge, recharge overnight, and have a full charge the next day. by contrast, if you run down the charge in a nissan leaf, it is going to take you the better part of 15-20 hours to fully recharge. and since the leaf is a pure BEV, you’ve got a car that you can reliably drive only every *other* day.
i used to be a critic of the range in the chevrolet volt, but now i see the battery capacity as being practical for 120v charging use. this has the side benefit in which i don’t end up paying for additional battery capacity.
my only gripe about the volt is the vision from the driver’s position, but other than that, i think that the chevrolet volt team did a really solid job of choosing the right tradeoffs. that said, i appreciate that the 4-seat versus 5-seat capacity thing is a legitimate issue, but no car is for everyone, and right now the electric car segment is too small to try to make a car for everyone. that’s why i am not too optimistic about the prospects of a company like fisker, which seems to be trying to identify a “luxury ev” segment – the overall segment is just too small to try to segment at the present time.
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (7:00 pm)I am one of those who have followed the Volt from the beginning, but have hesitated to purchase one even with the purchase price saved and in the bank. The Ford makes good sense and I will consider it when it is available in my area. I don’t expect to purchase a Volt at this time. I was also disappointed with the 2+2 seating. It just does not work for me. I will look at the Ford and compare it to the Prius. I might then purchase one. I am not in any hurry.
Oct 9th, 2012 (7:16 pm)…..and cost.
+9
Oct 9th, 2012 (7:16 pm)Lyle! I’m a bit surprised you didn’t wait a little longer and went with a Fisker or a Tesla…. then give the VOLT to the Mrs…. Like I’ve been saying for over 2 years now, the VOLT MPV5 would be a huge hit!!! Why doesn’t anyone at GM listen?
+9
Oct 9th, 2012 (7:21 pm)OK I’ll be the sour puss… Although it is a poke in GM’S eye, and the media will run with it; at least Lyle ordered a domestic vehicle. One of my main reasons for driving a Volt is that its domestic technology, using primarily domestic energy. The trade deficit is liquidating our nations wealth, and diminishing our standard of living. No nation can consume more than they produce and expect prosperity. I see the Volt as having the potential of creating a new technology that will contribute to the re-invigoration of our nations manufacturing sector, which has been, and will continue to be, one of the primary sources of wealth creation in our country.
Finally, as said by so many, so many times before: “Best car I ever owned!”
(And by the way, I would have ditched the leaf and kept the Volt….)
My 2012 Volt: 13291 total miles. 9.1 gallons used.
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (7:34 pm)As a father of 3, Volt-owner, and 2-vehicle household I disagree with this decision. It would have been better to be patient, and stick to your guns. What happened to the big cost analysis that proposed buying over leasing? I don’t think there was a 2-year turn-over in that cost model.
My volt is used for work and when I want to take a couple of the kids out. When it comes time to take everyone out, we simply take the wife’s CRV which seats 5. Do I wish the volt was a 5-seater? Sure. Will I abandon my volt for a leaf (which is essentially what has happened here; NOT abandoning the volt for a c-max) just because it isn’t? Definitely not.
-2
Oct 9th, 2012 (8:18 pm)Yesterday morning’s commute delivered 16 miles of EV. How could it be triple? It doesn’t even make sense to propose that. How would 7.5 kWh deliver 3 times more than 4.4 kWh?
As for requiring 40 miles, when did that become a necessity? And for that matter, what about the falling short of that due to the demands of heating in the winter?
In other words, capacity is only one of many purchase factors. This is why GM must diversify by offering other configurations of Volt.
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:35 pm)Lyle’s goal is simple, use the least amount of electricty possible. The Leaf enables his wife to do her daily chores fossil fuel free. The Ford will enable Lyle to do his daily drive fossil fuel free, and have the fifth seat when needed for long drives.
When his eldest is of age he can keep the Ford and Lyle will get another EREV hopefully a five seat Voltec by then.
Good to see you Tag, so how Volt #8?
In other news, the Volt is nearly here saw my first teaser add yesterday. http://www.holden.co.nz has a neat app that let’s you place the Volt in your driveway in the colour choice you want, black for me, gosh, if only I had 85,000 to spend on a car!
+3
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:42 pm)The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) issued two EV range ratings to the Prius Plug-in. A driving range for blended operation electric-gasoline of 11 mi (18 km) until the battery is depleted. The second rating is for all-electric operation with a range of 6 mi (10 km).
6 x 3 = 18
18 < 20
+6
Oct 9th, 2012 (9:59 pm)It’s not a necessity, it’s a sweet spot. Why do you always try to change what people post?
How are you going to spin the C-Max so it fails in comparison to the PiP?
Price = C-Max wins
Power = C-Max wins
AER = C-Max wins
Top EV Speed = C-Max wins
Looks = C-Max wins
Made in the USA = C-Max wins
It’s basically a PiP-killer, or should I say, the PiP is now dead at birth if it wasn’t already. And as stated previously, I applaud Ford’s efforts, but the C-Max still isn’t a Volt.
-4
Oct 9th, 2012 (10:04 pm)No. That’s simply the first time the engine starts, which clearly coincidences with the high-demand portion of the driving course. The engine shuts off shortly afterward and electric-only travel resumes.
The appropriate response is to point out that those are cherry-picked categories.
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (10:58 pm)john1701a,
What categories do you have left, the minuscule 47 vs. 50 mpg in CD mode? The 21.6 vs 19.2 cu-ft of cargo space? Is that it? Note, I didn’t even mention that fact that the Ford will most likely handle much better than the PiP, which is consistently described as an Econobox on wheels. So what have you got left? Nothing.
Head room front = C-Max wins
Head room rear = C-Max wins
Leg room front = C-Max wins
Leg room rear = C-Max wins
Hip room front = C-Max wins
Hip room rear = C-Max wins
Shoulder room front = C-Max wins
Shoulder room rear = C-Max wins
Passenger volume = C-Max wins
(waiting for the spin)
+1
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:04 pm)Here it is; right on the EPA sticker. 6 miles of all electric. Keep trying.
-2
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:25 pm)So… all this time there’s been a huge effort to remind people of how EPA doesn’t represent real-world driving. But when that doesn’t work as favorable, preach EPA as gospel. Whatever.
I’ll just point out one of my morning commutes this summer:
http://john1701a.com/prius/thumbnails/Prius-PHV_Commute_ElectricOnly.jpg
+2
Oct 9th, 2012 (11:45 pm)LOL, did you NOT just say I was cherry-picking data, and now you are going to use yourself as the 1 data point the proves we should NOT compare vehicles based on EPA ratings? Too funny.
+1
Oct 10th, 2012 (12:18 am)where i think i might agree with john1701a is that i don’t think that the market is as finely segmented as you appear to think. i think that the general market is buyers of alternative powered vehicles (including various hybrids). so in reality, i think that volt, leaf, prius, c-max, &c. are largely going after the same customers. customers make decisions on the basis of a variety of product attributes. one of them (but by no means the only one) is ev-range. i don’t think that these various offering as expanding the market because it is not clear to me that alternative powered vehicles (and especially variations of electric vehicles) are very well understood by the vast majority of vehicle purchasers.
so, i don’t see the c-max as being specifically a PiP-killer. if the PiP fails (which i suspect is highly unlikely), it will be for reasons other than the c-max.
+1
Oct 10th, 2012 (12:25 am)i am less inclined to be critical of the epa methods. for example, the epa specifies an electric range of about 37 miles for the volt. during the warmer months, and using fan-only or eco-mode cooling, i tended to get close to 50 miles of range on a charge. as the temperatures have dropped, i have seen the range that i am getting drop. during the colder months, i am probably going to switch to using comfort mode heating to keep the cabin warm. at that point, i would not be surprised if my electric range is cut in half relative to the warmer months. so i am not so convinced that the epa 37 mile figure for the volt is such a bad figure after all.
the epa is not trying to cheerlead for any particular car; i think that they are trying to give consumers figures upon which they can rely when making a car purchase decision.
-2
Oct 10th, 2012 (12:32 am)Are you STILL using gas?
Again, if every car owner traded in their cars for, ehem, a Prius, we would put a serious dent in crude imports. If every one of those new Pruis owners traded their cars for a Volt, the imported crude would virtually stop.
Lyle,
smart move in letting manufacturers know what the next step is. Good luck with the Ford in helping to introduce the plug in to the next generation.
Billtrez
+2
Oct 10th, 2012 (5:04 am)Lyle Dennis is trading in his Volt for a Ford C-Max Energi
Next, you’ll be telling us there’s no Santa Claus!!!
(But seriously, congrats and let us know how it goes. Thank you for the site).
… and HELLO Tagamet!!!
Oct 10th, 2012 (5:15 am)I hope more people make this dicission. It’ll put more EVs on the road and maybe bring down the price of a used Volt. Lyle, please stay to the right when trying to stay gas free in your Ford. Be courteous to your neighbors needing to get somewhere gas free in their Volt. Seriously.
Oct 10th, 2012 (7:32 am)There’s the spin.
85 MPG is a serious dent.
The plug-in Prius achieves that goal, as does C-Max Energi.
Oct 10th, 2012 (8:30 am)“Variety of product attributes”…… I went through them all, as most buyers will do before spending $30K. The C-Max wins. Who would ever buy a PiP? What “attribute” would steer you that way? Is it, that you want to pay more for less? I didn’t even mention another one; Overall Range = C-Max wins.
PiP = DOA
Oct 10th, 2012 (8:35 am)the problem is that you limited your comparison to the C-Max and the PiP. what i am telling you is that the people who would look at the C-Max and PiP would also look at the chevrolet volt, nissan leaf, &c. where i am disagreeing with you is that you seem to believe that there is a segmentation of the market based on ev range.
+1
Oct 10th, 2012 (9:33 am)no comment,
My point WAS to compare the C-Max and the PiP. Yes, there are many other plug-ins out there, but if you are looking for slightly cheaper, smaller battery plug-in hybrid/wagon-esque style/etc…, (AKA the PiP/C-Max market), it’s a no-brainer to choose the C-Max over the PiP. They are direct competitors, thus the comparison. I don’t like comparing the Volt to these cars, as it is more of an EV, where both of these will use more gas in comparison. And the BEV’s are in another different segment. Comparisons between different segments tend to lead to apples/oranges discussions. However, we finally have a situation, where 2 cars really are going head to head, and one just blows the other out of the water.
Oct 10th, 2012 (2:57 pm)I don’t speak for Lyle, of course, but don’t forget that the Leaf’s back seat holds 5.
Oct 10th, 2012 (7:54 pm)Daddy speed up, I feel like such a loser.
Oct 10th, 2012 (9:37 pm)http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/images/us06dds.gif
Detail of the EPA testing cycle.
-1
Oct 10th, 2012 (11:26 pm)“Lyle noted further that his wife used to have a three-row SUV but wanted a Nissan Leaf. Now that they have the Leaf, the two-EV family needs a five-seat long hauler, he said, and observed otherwise the Volt has been a great car.”
Oct 11th, 2012 (1:35 am)Yawn.
Zzzzz.
+1
Oct 11th, 2012 (7:38 am)Unfortunately, this story is being used to bash the Volt, so I’m not sure what the original intentions were, who started the conversations, etc. Was it to put some pressure on GM? Was it to get one of the first C-Max Energi’s? Would it have been different if GM finally announced this: http://gm-volt.com/2010/04/22/chevrolet-volt-mpv5/?
Oct 12th, 2012 (11:21 am)kdawg,
Kdawg, technically you are correct about the aer of the PiP. However, the PiP does have the battery power for about 13 miles of EV driving.
As I understand it, the problem is that the PiP starts using gas at a certain speed (62 mph I think) and will dip into it and use gas for other purposes. It will return to all battery mode pretty quickly when those reasons are no longer present.
I agree that the Cmax looks to be most directly competing with the PiP and looks to have it bet in most if not all areas.
I also thank Lyle for all his work and am happy he has cars that fit his family needs. Competition is good for everyone and hopefully this will help spur on production of a Volt family of vehicles:)
+1
Oct 13th, 2012 (4:08 pm)a five seat “long hauler” could also be used as a five seat “short hauler”; in which case, the more workable plan would be to replace the leaf with the c-max. so there was no requirement to replace the volt. this leads one to suspect other motives were involved…this is why i find it so hard to believe this story at face value.
+1
Oct 13th, 2012 (4:15 pm)there are always people in this forum who will criticize the volt for not having some feature that they personally want. so the comments in this thread are not really significant in that respect. but there are a fair number of lyle dennis “fanboys” in this forum who take their cues from his opinions. that’s part of what gives this “announcement” value to ford.
Oct 13th, 2012 (4:20 pm)this doesn’t look like an unreasonable driving cycle to me.