Mar 15

Can The Modern Electric Car Be Traced To Ronald Reagan?

 

Note: Below Huw reports on an opinion piece about a book. I edited what follows, posted it also to HybridCars.com, and thought it could spur some discussion here. I now want to get the book (linked below plus here as an audiobook) and dig further. -Jeff

By Huw Evans

If a certain view of history is to be believed, then the 40th President of United States, was a linchpin in the push toward sustainable motoring leading right up to the advent of today’s growing electric car segment.

And, if so, it’s quite ironic considering Reagan – who served as president from 1981-89 – is largely held up as a champion of Republican ideals, and many sympathetic to said ideals have demonized cars like the Chevy Volt as symbolic of government policies gone wrong.

But how is Reagan tied into the whole idea of green motoring? Well back when he was governor of California – 1967-75 – Reagan signed legislation that led to the creation of the California Air Resources Board (CARB) – and then consistently defended its right to set de facto policy for autos sold in the U.S.

 

CARB is largely credited for introducing rules mandating the sale of Zero Emissions Vehicles (ZEVs) in the Golden State (in other words, electric cars). And it’s largely from CARB’s stance that electric cars have been able to flourish in a manner not seen since the early 1900s.

At least this is the thrust of an argument presented by Pulitzer-prize winning author Daniel Yergin’s book, titled, The Quest: Energy, Security and the Remaking of the Modern World.

In it, he observes that Arie Haagen-Smit, a former Caltech chemistry professor, who is recognized as the “Father of Smog” (research), was appointed by Reagan’s office as CARB’s first chairman in 1968.

As Yergin wrote, Haagen-Smit began seeking ways to combat a problem he’d been dismayed by since the mid-1950s, when he observed, “a dense blue-gray haze … settled over and suffocated the Los Angeles Basin.” In the worst of those days, LAX would be closed, the author wrote, and kids’ phys-ed and recess periods would be canceled.

On the flip side, Reagan has also been cast as a key antagonist to sustainable mobility, with critics frequently citing the relaxation of Corporate Average Fuel Economy Standards and the de-regulation of the U.S. oil industry during his tenure in the White House.

According to an opinion piece based around Yergin’s thesis in The Daily Caller, Reagan serves as a sort of Rorschach test as to whether he was a hero or villain – but there remain plenty of indicators that he was also a key advocate for cleaner air in the early days as well.

“Reagan was definitely strong on environmental protection as governor of California in ways that are often forgotten,” remarked James Strock, who was the first secretary of the California Environmental Protection Agency and later, a White House official during Reagan’s term. “He was always protective as president of CARB’s right to set stricter standards than federal [guidelines]. The automakers had hoped they could get [Reagan] to override [CARB] authority. They were out of luck.”

But to counterbalance the view again, the prospect of subsidies – these and government bailouts have been called serious wrongheadedness by EV opponents more recently – may have been more of a sticking point even to Reagan, according to The Daily Caller. Fairly enough, it noted Strock also said Ronald Reagan, “would be very skeptical of having the government subsidizing making a car – and then subsidizing buying it.”

However, current smearing against the move toward electrification aside, the main point is that electrified powertrains, although yet a budding technology, are morally and ethically neutral. They therefore do not deserve to be castigated as a “political punching bag” as GM CEO Dan Akerson recently told a Republican subcommittee regarding the Volt.

Further, the underlying premise of “energy independence” and “green cars” as represented by electrified vehicles would have still been seen as defensible, even by the now-lionized Ronald Reagan.

So there you have it: Ronald Reagan, like Barack Obama, would have been pro-EV. Still up for debate are the many finer points of how to get there from here.

Source: The Daily Caller via Green Car Reports.

This entry was posted on Thursday, March 15th, 2012 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 107


  1. 1
    Mark Z

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (6:21 am)

    Let’s not forget two other Republicans who helped the environmental cleanup of our country. President Richard Nixon started the EPA in 1970.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Environmental_Protection_Agency

    Republican California governor Earl Warren should get credit for what he did in 1947. He signed into law the Air Pollution Control Act, authorizing the creation of an Air Pollution Control District in every county of the state.

    http://www.arb.ca.gov/html/brochure/history.htm

    One more thing… Let’s give some credit to Republican President Eisenhower for the Internet, as he established ARPA that became DARPA in 1972. It was ARPA that created the Internet.

    http://computer.howstuffworks.com/internet/basics/internet-start.htm


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    nasaman

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (7:12 am)

    An excellent topic, Jeff! And a terrific opening comment, Mark Z —thanks for your references!

    I was not aware that Reagan started CARB, although I lived in LA for 15 yrs, from the mid ’70′s to the early ’90′s and have always championed CARB. As a life-long Republican who is convinced the Presidents you mention all made important contributions to this Nation, sad to say, I think the GOP base has gone absolutely whacko over the last few years, thanks in large part to George W. Bush, activist/extremist Grover Norquist and more recently to the Tea Party insanity. The GOP radicalists in Congress, not to mention the very poor showing of the candidates for President in the current Republican primary circus —along with the shocking and unthinking bias of so many prominent Republicans against EVs (Gingrich: “you can’t put a gun rack in the Volt!”) are simply the last straw for me! I certainly won’t be voting for any of these GOP idiots running for President!


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (7:26 am)

    All presidents and congressmen since the oil embargo have failed in one thing. Pass a comprehensive energy policy and plan. There is no direction for a path away from the oil- based economy.

    Carter was probably the best advocate but couldn’t git-er-done.


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    Koz

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (8:25 am)

    Let’s say hypothetically, someone came up with an idea that showed promise to be able to:
    -reduce the national trade deficit by 75%
    - diversify the energy sources used for transportation; allowing freedom of choice, lowering the energy cost used for transportation, lowering the total potential energy consumption, severely dampening the inflationary risks in transportation energy consumption
    -significantly reduce transportation pollution thereby significantly decreasing metro-smog issues and particulate health issues.
    -simplify the automotive powertrain from thousands to a relatively few parts operating at much lower temperatures, pressures, and friction.
    -allow refueling at the home from existing infrastructure
    -reduce low speed neighborhood vehicle noise significantly

    What level of societal and governmental support for such an idea would be appropriate for a society that is where it is largely from: civil planning, federal highways, canals, dams, dikes, public university, public research, NASA, regulated grid, regulated communications, etc, etc

    Gov not equal good but gov not equal bad either. One can like the Volt and not like GM. One can like EV gov support but still favor limited gov. One can (should) want encouragement of EVs and still be a republican.


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    Kevin R

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (8:28 am)

    Problem is, those Republicans are a far cry from today’s Republican’s. Today’s Republicans are so far right of their predecessors as to make their predecessors look downright like Democrats. They’re not interested in what’s best for the country overall, but what’s best for big business and big oil.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (8:30 am)

    It’s funny to me how Reagan is the Chuck Norris of many Republicans, yet he started out as a Democrat. People will rewrite history to whatever favors their current stance. It’s called politics.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (8:34 am)

    Koz: What level of societal and governmental support for such an idea would be appropriate

    I think it would depend on who hires the best/most lobbyist. Congress is bought nowadays.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (8:36 am)

    If there was an awards program for dumbest most politically pandering statement, Newt’s “you can’t put a gun rack in a Volt” would be such an obvious winner they should just give it some lifetime achievement type award and let the trophy go to second place. The question though would be was that an off the cuff ill advised attempt at a joke or actual pandering? In the normal world I would have to believe the former but with politics….


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (8:37 am)

    Loboc: All presidents and congressmen since the oil embargo have failed in one thing. Pass a comprehensive energy policy and plan. There is no direction for a path away from the oil- based economy.
    Carter was probably the best advocate but couldn’t git-er-done.

    I’d post the Daily Show bit where they show clips of all the Presidents back to Nixon claiming what this country needs is an energy program, but I think i’ve posted it here 3 times already, so most everyone has already seen it.

    energypolicy.jpg


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (8:42 am)

    ronr64: If there was an awards program for dumbest most politically pandering statement, Newt’s “you can’t put a gun rack in a Volt” would be such an obvious winner they should just give it some lifetime achievement type award and let the trophy go to second place. The question though would be was that an off the cuff ill advised attempt at a joke or actual pandering? In the normal world I would have to believe the former but with politics….

    Romney’s attempts to pander fail miserably. After saying, let the auto industry go bankrupt, he came to Michigan to pander and try to win some votes back. All he could come up with was, “I like Michigan, the trees are the right height.” WTF?


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (9:08 am)

    Koz:
    Let’s say hypothetically, someone came up with an idea that showed promise to be able to:
    -reduce the national trade deficit by 75%
    - diversify the energy sources used for transportation; allowing freedom of choice, lowering the energy cost used for transportation, lowering the total potential energy consumption, severely dampening the inflationary risks in transportation energy consumption
    -significantly reduce transportation pollution thereby significantly decreasing metro-smog issues and particulate health issues.
    -simplify the powertrain from thousands to a relatively few parts operating at much lower temperatures, pressures, and friction.
    -allow refueling at the home from existing infrastructure
    -reduce low speed neighborhood noise significantly

    What level of societal and governmental support for such an idea would be appropriate for a society that is where it is largely from: civil planning, federal highways, canals, dams, dikes, public university, public research, NASA, regulated grid, regulated communications, etc, etc

    Gov not equal good but gov not equal bad either. One can like the Volt and not like GM. One can like EV gov support but still favor limited gov. One can (should) want encouragement of EVs and still be a republican.

    Koz – Why would such a great idea as you framed it need any govt support or subsidies to succeed? When would said subsidies end? Understanding instead of just criticizing the alternative viewpoint is what is needed to actually understand better your own viewpoint. Conservatives are not against progress. To even think that would only show how unbelievably ignorant a person must be. To prop up an industry before its time is to prop up companies/ideas that are inferior and should fail. By not allowing this failure you bar or at the least raise the bar for new companies/ideas from entering the market place. Govt has a nasty habit of supporting individual companies because of their geological/political locations and the success of their lobbying efforts – not those most likely to succeed. There have been plenty of examples in the news lately of govt supported companies failing. Not because the tech failed but rather because other companies did such a better job they could over come the govt subsidized company. In some of these cases those were foreign companies and you can sometimes make a national security argument for keeping a US industry alive but that is another discussion.

    I am a conservative who is also a Republican (not the other way around) and I think the Volt is the single greatest automotive achievement in my lifetime and I do not think it needs govt support or subsidizes. In fact if it needs govt support then how could it be the greatest automotive achievement? History will judge whether or not the Volt was a watershed turning point in automotive engineering and it does not need to be a financial or sales success to do so. If it fails that would be too bad but so be it. Electrification of the auto is here to stay. Maybe with some bumps and some false starts but it is here. To prop up the Volt is only going to make it harder for some other entry. Some other entry that would be even better. So while subsidies my spur some growth in the very beginning it is my belief in the long run they hinder growth. They also have a nasty habit of never disappearing. One may look here at a classic example.

    http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/npr/library/reports/ag01.html


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (9:10 am)

    kdawg: Romney’s attempts to pander fail miserably.After saying, let the industry go bankrupt, he came to Michigan to pander and try to win some votes back.All he could come up with was, “I like Michigan, the trees are the right height.” WTF?

    While I am not going to defend Romney let me just point that neither political side has a monopoly on such things…


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    Darius

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (9:22 am)

    I would think that Reagan would be harsh supporter of electrification. Even more intense than he was opposing Soviet natural gas pipeline towards Western Europe. And he was right on that as he was right on star wars.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (9:38 am)

    ronr64: While I am not going to defend Romney let me just point that neither political side has a monopoly on such things…

    Agreed, pandering by any politician makes my stomach turn, similiar to hearing a laugh-track on a TV show.

    I LOL’d when Stephen Colbert gave a speech not too long ago and his opening words were “I didn’t come here to pander to you beautiful people”.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (9:39 am)

    ronr64,

    Could you give us some example of really game changing innovation or new technology without participation of government? Private business is interesting rather conservation than innovation, or using existing inventions and developments rather really investing into development which is risky business and could give for particular company in the best case scenario only short term advantage. Major investors for real research&development on the global scale still are governments. Major Corporations concentrates more on perfecting existing solutions and reseach&developmet is more often regarded as marketing activity. Small companies or vencher capital sometimes making some new things, but for game changing you need big money to come. That is realty.


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    George S. Bower

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (10:13 am)

    Romney’s statement about the Volt being:

    “a car who’s time has not yet come”..

    makes his position perfectly clear.


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    Raymondjram

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (10:16 am)

    ronr64,

    The government is helping in the electrification of private and public transportation, and the tax rebate is one mean. You are under no obligation to buy a Volt or any EV, and if you did, neither are you under any obligation to take the rebate. So the goverment isn’t forcing you at all. If you don’t like what it has done for GM and the Volt, then take it up to your repesentatives at Congress and have them do your bidding. But most of us agree that without the government’s help, the oil companies will increase their dominion and eradicate the EV once and for all!

    We need protection against the individuals who want to gain and maintain power over us all, and the government is the only help we have now. You may be a conservative, but I consider that a static view. Only those who challenge the present will change the future. I salute GM, the Volt engineers, and all the fellow members who took the risk and bought a Volt, because they are changing our future in our favor.

    We may not need the goverment subsidy at all if we support the changes. You may take a backseat and complain, but watch what happens. Each Volt owner now has the financial liberty that we gasoline consumers don’t have. If the government helped, then it is a benefit we all love to have!

    Raymond


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    DonC

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (10:19 am)

    There are two different currents here. The “dirty air” current which caused Ronald Reagan to start CARB is one. The “too expensive” current which is crippling the economy is the second. It’s newer. New Gingrich aside, it’s clear that $50/bbl oil is not in the cards, regardless of how often you drill and where you drill. The cheap oil has already been found and what’s left is oil that is expensive to extract. There may be a gazillion barrels of oil in deep water off the coast of Brazil but it will cost a gazillion dollars to extract it. And there may be a trillion barrels of tight oil in the US, but it’s going to cost $75/bbl to $150/bbl to extract it.

    The internal combustion engine can be improved to address the “dirty air” problem. In fact a lot of that work has been done already. The ICE can’t, however, do anything to address the “too expensive” problem. The only remedy for oil which is too expensive is to find an alternative, be it electricity or bio-fuel or natural gas, not to find oil which is even more expensive.

    One short term fix is to get a more efficient car. If you drive a car that gets 25 MPG, you can cut the price of gas in half by getting a Prius. Even better, at the very least, you can half the price again by getting a Volt. This shouldn’t be so hard to comprehend, yet we see people like Representative Allen West who complains that the price of gas is too high because it costs too much to fill … his Hummer. Earth to Allen, try a different vehicle dude. Your butt can’t possibly be that big!


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (10:31 am)

    Kevin R:
    Problem is, those Republicans are a far cry from today’s Republican’s.Today’s Republicans are so far right of their predecessors as to make their predecessors look downright like Democrats.They’re not interested in what’s best for the country overall, but what’s best for big business and big oil.

    That is very true. They are a very far cry from the first Republican, Abraham Lincoln. He was a true President that did his best during the greatest crisis in America’s history, and his life was ended short because he kept the nation united. The present generation are divided in opinions now, and under the same crisis can leave the nation divided and weak. Not one of them is worthy to be another”Abraham Lincoln”!

    Raymond.


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    Magilla

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (10:37 am)

    nasaman,

    I have got to agree that the current Republican Party is not the party that Ronald Reagan led in the eighties. At this time in our history, there appears to be no common ground between the two parties which ensures continued inaction on the part of our elected leaders in Washington. I work less than 3 miles from the capital, and I just can’t stand to see it’s dome every day because it reminds me how diametrically opposed the two parties are.

    I think the demonization of electric cars comes from two general views: (1) the Obama administration bailed out GM and made them produce the VOLT (wrong) (2) the electric car industry cannot help me win the re-election, but the UAW — who makes 99% more gas cars than electric — is someone I have to deal with.

    I’m said to say that I’m a republican that does not support 50% of what my party’s candidates advocate,


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    DonC

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (10:42 am)

    ronr64: While I am not going to defend Romney let me just point that neither political side has a monopoly on such things…

    Absolutely right. In fact doing this artfully makes you a good politician. The problem for Romney is that the Republican Party has been captured by the extreme right wing, which has turned the Republican Primary into a heresy trial. As a consequence he’s been forced to dash far to the right, repudiating just about every position he’s ever taken previously. This is not artful and gives the impression of a flip-flopper with a weak character and no leadership skills.

    It also doesn’t help that you think it’s perfectly fine to put your sick dog on the roof of your car when you go on a family vacation. I’m a dog person and maybe other people think this is normal, but actually doing something that you’d expect from the Griswold’s trip to Wally World makes me wonder whether this guy has spent way too much time on Planet Wall Street.


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    Bonaire

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (10:57 am)

    I have some magazines from the 1970s that I found at my mother’s house with some articles on EVs and Solar PV. I’ll scan them and make a post in a few weeks. So much talk about this subject in the 70s due to the oil embargo and oil “shortage” back then. Also, the world only had 4-billion people in 1975 – just two generations ago. Now 7-billion and growing.

    The lower cost of oil, oil company lobbies and political environments just haven’t let the science really flourish until now with the higher energy density found in Lithium cells. The time is finally now for this stuff to flourish.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:32 am)

    ronr64: Koz – Why would such a great idea as you framed it need any govt support or subsidies to succeed? When would said subsidies end? http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/npr/library/reports/ag01.html

    For the same reasons all of those other “ideas” I mentioned needed and got support and have been much to our benefit. Why is that so many people feel that everything must succeed or not exist outside of government? What society in history has been successful limiting government’s role to…nothting? Why was there no tremendous outrage when the ATV program and the EV tax credit were established under a replublican admin or when the concept of the Volt was unveiled in Jan of 2007? Now that we actually have products on the market that qualify for these incentives, they are villified under a Democratic admin? Don’t you think the same Republican admin that initiated these things would have still supported them?

    I understand the “alternative” viwpoint well enough. Conservative ideals are just as valid as liberal ones. I do not see the current attacks on everything “green” associated, non-scientific attacks against AGW, or specifics attacks against the Volt as being based in any reasonable conservative ideaology. They are purely political attacks for political gains and politcal arguments that largely hide, distort, abfuscate or otherwise avoid the truths and realities of the situations. AGW is a scientific discussion, not a political one. It is rediculous that “beliefs” are drawn along party lines. EV’s are of national interest and national benefits, plenty of non-partyline republicans support them and even their gov encouragement as illustrated by the legislation that has been passed in the past. I have no issue with people that are uncomfortable with the auto baliout or with the use of tax incentives to spur tech development. I have no problem with the discussions to define the benefits or lack there of to affect the scope of gov support. That is healthy and essential. I have tremendous issues with ideoligal opposition that thwarts or otherwise inhibits discussion. That pre-determines decision making and completely shuts down the possibility of any action. Liberals can and should support appropriate deregulation without violating their ideals just as conservatives can and should support appropriate regulation. The discussions should be about what is appropriate, not a simple yes and no ideological ones. That isn’t discussion but rather dictation.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:35 am)

    DonC:

    It also doesn’t help that you think it’s perfectly fine to put your sick dog on the roof of your car when you go on a family vacation. I’m a dog person and maybe other people think this is normal, but actually doing something that you’d expect from the Griswold’s trip to Wally World makes me wonder whether this guy has spent way too much time on Planet Wall Street.

    While it is hard not to see that as weird i would ask is it really any different than in the back of a pickup? I see that all the time and my own dogs have ridden in the back of our pickup both in and out of a carrier. And anyone who thinks the cab protects them from the wind hasn’t ridden in the back of a pickup at speed. It helps a bit but it is still plenty windy.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:39 am)

    Threw legislation; Congress has been picking winners and losers in business since the start, this is nothing new. It becomes a problem when: back-scratching; money for power and personal gain from insider knowledge, which Congress seems reluctant to fix are the objectives, instead of what helps the nation as a whole JMO. The tax money our government spends for promoting needed change is peanuts compared to the waste and fraud in: DOD, Tax fraud, fraud in Social programsand general inefficiency of government. If we invest in our Nation’s infrastructure and Clean domestic energy, it will help our Nation many times over in many ways. I do like when the Consumer gets to pick winners, instead of Congress in the form of direct rebates. Direct rebates not only help the taxpayer the most but also moves the Nation in the general direction that helps everyone IMHO.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:45 am)

    Darius:
    ronr64,

    Could you give us some example of really game changing or new technology without participation of government? Private business is interesting rather conservation than innovation, or using existing inventions and developments rather really investing into development which is risky business and could give for particular company in the best case scenario only short term advantage. Major investors for real research&development on the global scale still are governments. Major Corporations concentrates more on perfecting existing solutions and reseach&developmet is more often regarded as marketing activity. Small companies or vencher capital sometimes making some new things, but for game changing you need big money to come. That is realty.

    Government has become ubiquitous in everything that we do. So no matter what example I were to give you, you would come up with some tie to govt to prove your point.

    The great irony I see with the govt subsidies are needed approach regarding electrification of autos is that without the govt subsidies of oil there would be no need for govt subsidies of electrified autos! Even without the Iraq and Afghanistan wars we spend many billions propping up nations we could care less about if it wasn’t for oil. How many Volts would be flying off dealer lots if gas was $8 a gallon?


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:45 am)

    Barack Obama… You’re no Ronald Reagan. World leaders respected, ( and feared ) Reagan’s resolve. Obama has made the USA the laughable ‘paper tiger’ on the world stage.

    Oooo! Did I say that out loud? Sorry.

    On another note, I’m having a tough time selling our Volt Demo now that there are a total of $11,000 in Credits and Rebates here in my town. Everyone wants the new HOV model instead. As long as the credits are there, I’m not sure how we can convince someone to buy used… Unless we give it away…


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:46 am)

    DonC: Representative Allen West who complains that the price of gas is too high because it costs too much to fill … his Hummer. Earth to Allen, try a different vehicle dude. Your butt can’t possibly be that big!

    Gas price is the new attack on Obama (you he controls the gas prices right?, haha)

    I’m actually happy the gas prices are going up. I hope we hit $6/gallon this summer. Maybe our leaders will see more than 10minutes into the future and we will invest in renewable energy as a country instead of going to war with Iran. Let the countries that still need oil fight those wars, and let’s get out of that game.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:48 am)

    CorvetteGuy: On another note, I’m having a tough time selling our Volt Demo now that there are a total of $11,000 in Credits and Rebates here in my town. Everyone wants the new HOV model instead. As long as the credits are there, I’m not sure how we can convince someone to buy used… Unless we give it away…

    Sell it to some one in Nevada/Arizona/etc..
    If you go low enough, i’m sure some one here would buy it {looks towards Loboc and Capn Jack}


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:52 am)

    Magilla: nasaman, I’m said to say that I’m a republican that does not support 50% of what my party’s candidates advocate,

    I keep seeing more of this sentiment and I’m guessing you aren’t in the republican minority. The problem is the current party is vulcanizing and the loudest voices are getting the most press. This is what dissapoints me the most about the current crop of candidates. They seem to all be trying to pander to the media and vocal views of what “replicans” want. I think they are largely missing the base, if one could even be found to exist anymore. The difficulties and failures from the Bush admin are ripping at the part core.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:57 am)

    Raymondjram: That is very true. They are a very far cry from the first Republican, Abraham Lincoln.He was a true President that did his best during the greatest crisis in America’s history, and his life was ended short because he kept the nation united. The present generation are divided in opinions now, and under the same crisis can leave the nation divided and weak. Not one of them is worthy to be another”Abraham Lincoln”!

    Raymond.

    Speaking of President Lincoln, he also created the National Academy of Sciences in 1863, which probably directly led to some technologies used in the Chevy Volt – if someone cares to research those 147 years in detail, I bet they’d find some…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Academy_of_Sciences


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (12:02 pm)

    DonC: This is not artful and gives the impression of a flip-flopper with a weak character and no leadership skills.

    I think Romney could steal Newt’s pandering award, with his flip-flopping. The only person who’s flipped 180-degrees more times than Romney was Dr. Jekyll.

    (Google videos on his views of cross-party voting. He laughed about in in the mid-2000′s when he did it and was proud to vote agaist leading Dems. Fast forward to the Michigan *open* Primary where the thought is was the dirtiest political trick, when referring to Dem’s who voted for Santorum)


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (12:05 pm)

    ronr64: I am a conservative who is also a Republican (not the other way around) and I think the Volt is the single greatest automotive achievement in my lifetime and I do not think it needs govt support or subsidizes. In fact if it needs govt support then how could it be the greatest automotive achievement?

    Perhaps it would need that support to counter the large subsidies that have allowed the ICE lifestyle to appear cheap, convenient and inevitable. Protection of oil supply lines requires an occasional excursion to “the shores of Tripoli” or some added non budgeted millions for personnel, resupplies, and armaments to step up patrols in the Sea of Hormuz from time to time.

    I read that the Volt’s $7500 subsidy will to help keep the Government from coughing up about $10,000 in petroleum subsidies for each ICE car that Volts displace. Someone on the forums recently said that the cell phone industry alone has gotten far more subsidies than EV’s.

    It’s not a level playing field nor a free market, and I can’t even imagine how much countries like China are subsidizing their own EV development and slanting the rules in favor of their own manufacturers to completely push GM and Ford out of this emerging market.

    I would like to think that brilliant inventions have a light of their own that will attract people and create progress moving forward, but I am not naive enough to think that is inevitable, and that every one will envision a better future from new inventions and champion them, for the betterment of all.

    Maybe that happened in Edison and Ford’s time but not now. And even then the history writers likely just wanted us to think great things just inevitably happened, without a lot of sweat, tears, and treasure to support them.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (12:13 pm)

    koz: I keep seeing more of this sentiment and I’m guessing you aren’t in the republican minority. The problem is the current party is vulcanizing and the loudest voices are getting the most press. This is what dissapoints me the most about the current crop of candidates. They seem to all be trying to pander to the media and vocal views of what “replicans” want. I think they are largely missing the base, if one could even be found to exist anymore. The difficulties and failures from the Bush admin are ripping at the part core.

    Other than Ron Paul, who has been saying the same things for 30years. Have to give him credit for his consistency, even if I don’t agree with much of it.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (12:15 pm)

    ronr64: Government has become ubiquitous in everything that we do.So no matter what example I were to give you, you would come up with some tie to govt to prove your point.

    The great irony I see with the govt subsidies are needed approach regarding electrification of autos is that without the govt subsidies of oil there would be no need for govt subsidies of electrified autos!Even without the Iraq and Afghanistan wars we spend many billions propping up nations we could care less about if it wasn’t for oil.How many Volts would be flying off dealer lots if gas was $8 a gallon?

    Exactly – few Americans see the $trillions spent on guaranteeing that our oil puppets (like the dictators in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar…) stay in power, produce roughly at the levels and prices we tell them to, and have pipelines and shipping lanes safe and available to get the oil to us or our allies in Europe and Asia, as “subsidies”. Take away that military spending, and watch what happens to the global oil “market”.

    Notice many major “problem” countries in recent decades: Iraq. Iran. Libya. Venezuela. Saudi Arabia (15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers). Kuwait (invaded by Iraq for slant drilling into Iraqi oilfields, Gulf War 1991).
    What do all these countries have in common ? They are OPEC members.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (12:23 pm)

    OT: Not sure if we are still keeping track of the Chevy Volt awards, but the Volt won the Kelly Blue Book best resale value award for EV’s, and the 2012 Vincintric Best Value in its class.

    http://www.vincentric.com/Home/BestValueAwards/2012BestValueinAmerica/2012BestValueinAmericaWinnersList.aspx


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (12:24 pm)

    ronr64: I am a conservative who is also a Republican (not the other way around) and I think the Volt is the single greatest automotive achievement in my lifetime and I do not think it needs govt support or subsidizes. In fact if it needs govt support then how could it be the greatest automotive achievement? History will judge whether or not the Volt was a watershed turning point in automotive engineering and it does not need to be a financial or sales success to do so. If it fails that would be too bad but so be it. Electrification of the auto is here to stay. Maybe with some bumps and some false starts but it is here. To prop up the Volt is only going to make it harder for some other entry. Some other entry that would be even better. So while subsidies my spur some growth in the very beginning it is my belief in the long run they hinder growth. They also have a nasty habit of never disappearing.

    Well said. Ditto.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (12:26 pm)

    Back to the real heart of the thread…
    Always remember that Reagan took down the White House solar panels that Jimmy Carter put up. You’ll not convince me that Reagan would be anywhere above the current class of GOP clowns.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (12:38 pm)

    It’s humorous how many are “so upset” with the $7500 tax credit for the Volt, but no one complained when Bush allowed $25,000 deductions for SUVs, and wanted to increase it to $75,000.

    http://4wheeldrive.about.com/cs/drivingtipssafety/a/aa041603a.htm


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (12:54 pm)

    Sorry, another OT (i get tired of the political stuff)

    Maybe a peak at Volt Gen 2?
    4G cars

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/livefrom/post/2012/03/chevy-volt-4g-concept-car-sxsw/1#.T19NzWERrU8

    gmchevyvoltx-large.jpg


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (12:59 pm)

    Truman: Exactly – few Americans see the $trillions spent on guaranteeing that our oil puppets (like the dictators in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar…) stay in power, produce roughly at the levels and prices we tell them to, and have pipelines and shipping lanes safe and available to get the oil to us or our allies in Europe and Asia, as “subsidies”.Take away that military spending, and watch what happens to the global oil “market”.

    Notice many major “problem” countries in recent decades:Iraq.Iran.Libya.Venezuela.Saudi Arabia (15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers).Kuwait (invaded by Iraq for slant drilling into Iraqi oilfields, Gulf War 1991).
    What do all these countries have in common ?They are OPEC members.

    Imagine if any other producers tried such a thing as OPEC does? They get together and decide on production quotes in order to set the price they want. Why we would set records at the WTO for our complaints. If I were King… Seriously though we ought to slap a huge tariff on any oil products from or derived from OPEC sources. Of course we won’t.

    I am all for free markets as long as there is fair play. I am also not opposed to govt intervention in cases of national security. Oil ticks both boxes. One might easily jump to the conclusion then that subsidies such as the $7500 for the Volt should be agreeable to me. The reason I am opposed to such targeted approaches is that they pick winners at the expense of those not chosen. I much prefer a method that lifts all boats. Put a tariff on imported energy, maybe only on OPEC countries. This benefits electric cars or electrified cars such as the Volt. It also benefits solar, wind, geothermal, domestic production of oil and natural gas and even conservation such as insulation of homes, car pooling etc. It does this with out forms to fill out, wondering if you qualify or not and it does so without picking winners or losers. We don’t fund one solar company while another goes out of business. We don’t get into our own WTO problems because we are unfairly supporting domestic business at the expense of foreign business, which we complain about all the time when it is done in other countries. At the same time I would ramp down our support to those we really don’t support but that is a bit of a different issue even though it effects some of the same things.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (1:04 pm)

    kdawg: Other than Ron Paul, who has been saying the same things for 30years. Have to give him credit for his consistency, even if I don’t agree with much of it.

    True, but I’ld consider Paul more of an outcrop rather than part of the crop.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (1:09 pm)

    If the demo VOLT sticks around long enough… maybe I can get the big boss to let me have it cheap. That would be better. Gas here is $4.59 for regular.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (1:12 pm)

    Kdawg #40
    Worthy of its own thread
    & note – Still back bucket seats. Next gen Volt retains hump in back. Those awaiting added seating will not be pleased.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (1:16 pm)

    kdawg: I LOL’d when Stephen Colbert gave a speech not too long ago and his opening words were “I didn’t come here to pander to you beautiful people”.

    Colbert is Genius


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (1:17 pm)

    flmark: Kdawg #40Worthy of its own thread& note – Still back bucket seats. Next gen Volt retains hump in back. Those awaiting added seating will not be pleased.

    That may only be enhancements for 2013 model. I don’t think we are seeing next gen 2.0 yet.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (1:27 pm)

    kdawg:
    It’s humorous how many are “so upset” with the $7500 tax credit for the Volt, but no one complained when Bush allowed $25,000 deductions for SUVs, and wanted to increase it to $75,000.

    http://4wheeldrive.about.com/cs/drivingtipssafety/a/aa041603a.htm

    I sure hope you are not a tax accountant if you don’t know the difference between a tax credit and a deduction!

    You really are comparing apples and oranges here. Is a limo a legitimate business deduction? Sure as heck is if I am in the business of renting out limousines! It is easy to understand something like a metal stamping press as a business deduction after all who has one of those at home for fun? What about a large flat screen? Every place I go to now has at least one in the business. Vehicles? Sure lots of them. Do they have to be some sort of utilitarian sedan from a former Soviet bloc country? Of course not. The real problem isn’t whether a business gets extravagant in the vehicles it provides for its employees/customers during business use but rather the non-business use of such vehicles. And that doesn’t matter whether it is a Cadillac Escalade or a Yugo. So perhaps no one complained because it is not the same thing. I think all legitimate business items should be deductible and personal use should be taxed as income or reimbursed. If that is too much trouble and the IRS wants to start defining which vehicles are eligible for business use and which aren’t well now here we go again picking winners and losers – to paraphrase Mr. Reagan.

    Is having a higher end newer vehicle available for picking up clients at the airport and bringing them to your business and out to supper etc when a multi-million dollar deal is on the line a legitimate business expense and more importantly a sound business practice? I think so. How about delivering pizza? I think not, but who cares, maybe the pizza shop owner thinks it is part of his pizza companies image and is worth the expense. The market place will decide which of us is right.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (1:30 pm)

    CorvetteGuy:
    If the demo VOLT sticks around long enough… maybe I can get the big boss to let me have it cheap. That would be better. Gas here is $4.59 for regular.

    I thought you already had bought your own Volt, having the dealer price discounts and sales comissions to cover you.

    Raymond


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (1:54 pm)

    Tagamet: Well said. Ditto.

    Oh yes, the “My church and my house NEED and DESERVE a government subsidy but your Volt doesn’t” argument. Hard to take that argument seriously and even harder to have it be “Well said”.

    ronr64: I sure hope you are not a tax accountant if you don’t know the difference between a tax credit and a deduction!

    I like you and you’re a smart guy, way too smart not to know that deductions and credits are the same thing. Forget business expenses. How about charitable deductions? How about interest paid on home mortgages? How about the exclusion from income for employer provided health insurance? Or how about the “private equity trade” where you get to transform ordinary income into capital gains? And why we’re there, how about capital gains? We could go on and on and on and on.

    Singling out the EV credit as though it’s something special simply isn’t intellectually honest. Seeing people taking the deduction for interest on a home mortgage or the deduction for a charitable contribution while saying that they don’t want to buy me a car makes me laugh. Personally I’m tired of buying them a house. I just don’t talk much about it! LOL


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (2:23 pm)

    koz: AGW is a scientific discussion, not a political one

    The EPA *is* political and not scientific.

    Why else would a naturally-occurring gas (CO2), that is scientifically plant food, be deemed a pollutant? It is also (wrongfully in my opinion) deemed a ‘greenhouse gas’ when, scientifically, water vapor is much more of a greenhouse causality. If in fact, there is even any greenhouse affect in play. I am skeptical as the earth naturally balances these things whether we do anything about it or not.

    I’m not going on an AGW rant, but, since CO2 is also present in greater amounts in the presence of other pollutants, I am able to sit back and let the crazy tree-huggers fight the good fight.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (2:38 pm)

    DonC: Oh yes, the “My church and my house NEED and DESERVE a government subsidy but your Volt doesn’t” argument. Hard to take that argument seriously and even harder to have it be “Well said”.

    Seeing people taking the deduction for interest on a home mortgage or the deduction for a charitable contribution while saying that they don’t want to buy me a car makes me laugh.

    Personally I’m tired of buying them a house. I just don’t talk much about it! LOL

    Thx DonC that was worth waiting for without a doubt.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (2:46 pm)

    I recall the rancid and acrid air in LA when I (and others in my squadron) who were in the USAF Security Service (technology counter intel), and were assigned temporary duty to Edwards AFB. Our arrival in LA was really significantly bad as the air in 1973 (Jan.) was so bad, it seemed like we had to breath vaporized sulphuric acid.

    It was exceptionally nasty, and we wondered how people who lived there could possibly stand it.

    So, for most other folks who live elsewhere in the US, there were in fact these absolutely critical responses regarding air quality that California just had to have, yet most people have no idea of how painful and nasty is was to breathe those poisons back then. Other countries like Spain and some places in Mexico, like Mexico City (in an enclosed “bowl” as well), now have these extremely nasty and damaging atmospheric conditions. So, since we don’t (as much) have these conditions, we often take for granted those compelling pollution situations that were dealt with to a great extent, and, as well, continuously addressed also as far as our (future) behalves.

    Electrification is likewise the next step for the solving of many more kinds of present and future social problems as most of us now know.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (3:13 pm)

    ronr64: I sure hope you are not a tax accountant if you don’t know the difference between a tax credit and a deduction!

    If the tax rate was 25%, that would be 25% of $25K or $6,250. If it was 25% of $75K, that would be $18,750, That’s a lot more than the Volt’s $7,500. The vehicle only had to be used 50% of the time for businsess, meaning it could be his daily commuter to work. It was a scammer’s loophole in the tax law. The law was meant for farmers, not people that drive Hummers. However you didn’t hear any outcry from the GOP. Maybe they should rephrase the Volt’s “tax credit” to “tax cut”. If you buy a Volt, you get a $7500 tax cut. Everyone loves tax cuts.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (3:19 pm)

    DonC: Personally I’m tired of buying them a house. I just don’t talk much about it! LOL

    Throw in the dependants too. If you choose to marry a non-working person, or have kids, why do you get to pay less taxes? If you can’t afford those things, I don’t want to pay for them.

    (yes, I understand the value of children in society, just making a point)


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (3:32 pm)

    Dan is correct about how bad the air was in the LA basin. Living in La Habra in the 60′s, many days you could not see the hills on the north or south, just a mile or two away! Tears would occur while breathing the air when walking home from school on a smoggy day.

    Now the air is so much clearer, many days you can see mountains 70 miles away. Local hills are always visible (unless it’s foggy.) While not perfect, I would never want to return to those horrid conditions when cars did not have smog controls.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (3:32 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: On another note, I’m having a tough time selling our Volt Demo now that there are a total of $11,000 in Credits and Rebates here in my town. Everyone wants the new HOV model instead. As long as the credits are there, I’m not sure how we can convince someone to buy used… Unless we give it away…

    I thought there were two possibilities…

    1) If you sell it as new, then the buyer qualifies for the tax incentives.

    2) If you sell it as used, then the prior owner (your dealership) already got the tax incentives and thus could discount the price accordingly.

    Maybe I’m missing something.

    Here in Illinois ($11.5K total incentive) some dealers are bundling the tax incentive into the sales price ($32K or so). But I also I see a dealership here asking $37K for a used Volt with 8000 miles. Who would pay $5K over new for a used Volt? Where did its tax incentive go?

    Thanks.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (3:42 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Barack Obama… You’re no Ronald Reagan. World leaders respected, ( and feared ) Reagan’s resolve. Obama has made the USA the laughable ‘paper tiger’ on the world stage.

    Oooo! Did I say that out loud? Sorry.

    #27

    My guys keep telling me not to discuss politics in front of the customers. Good advice.

    I almost always give you compliments and “+1s” for your comments, but not today. -1

    Edit: BTW, everything I have read and seen indicates the President Obama is WAY more popular and respected on the world stage than “W”. I don’t know where you get your information, but I respectfully disagree.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (3:52 pm)

    ronr64: The real problem isn’t whether a business gets extravagant in the vehicles it provides for its employees/customers during business use but rather the non-business use of such vehicles. And that doesn’t matter whether it is a Cadillac Escalade or a Yugo.

    #47

    I call BS on this one. The tax rule allowed all vehicles over 6000 GVW to be written off over one year. Which amounted to close as no matter to a $25K tax saving for people in the top bracket. Which led to LOTS of gas wasting behavior like people driving Escalades and Hummers as one person commuter vehicles. And, if you think that small business owners meticulously separate their personal from their business use, you clearly don’t know many small business owners.

    My late wife was an RN at a major SoCal hospital for 35 years. She used to joke about the tax rules resulted in all of the doctors’ wives showing up in their Escalades and Hummers. Give me a break!


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (3:56 pm)

    Dan Petit: It was exceptionally nasty, and we wondered how people who lived there could possibly stand it.

    #52

    I have lived here my whole life and you’re dead right. +1

    It has never been easy. And we keep fighting the battle to this day, particularly the diesel particulate piece.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (3:58 pm)

    kdawg: Everyone loves tax cuts.

    #53

    Well, unless they might reflect a little credit on the dreaded Obama, LOL. Then they’re “subsidies”. +1


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (4:09 pm)

    The National Environmental Policy Act, which requires Environmental Impact Statements for all major federally funded projects, those dreaded documents which modern day Republicans see as holding up “progress”, was passed under the leadership of the great President Richard M. Nixon. And if memory serves, the Clean Water Act as well.

    I am just now reading a biography of President Dwight D. Eisenhower, focusing upon his White House years. One of his proudest achievements was the Interstate Highway System, arguably the largest “infrastructure” project in US history, 90% funded by the Federal government. And another was a massive upgrading of facilities at our National Parks, in which he took particular pride. And he worked continuously to keep military spending under control, as witness his famous “Military Industrial Complex” speech/warning.

    Our present day Republicans would do well to read a little history.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (4:20 pm)

    Noel Park:

    I am just now reading a biography of President Dwight D. Eisenhower, focusing upon his White House years

    Our present day Republicans would do well to read a little history.

    Eisenhower also fretted about what to do about nuclear proliferation. He started a program called “atoms for peace”. ie Nuclear Power Plants. Quite an interesting twist I would say.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (4:21 pm)

    I think that’s really a nice picture of Ronny.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (4:27 pm)

    For those that don’t get the Chevy FB updates… this one just popped in.

    GM CEO Dan Akerson, Volt Owner Meet Up, Climate One: A Truly Electric Day

    http://www.thefutureiselectric.com/2012/03/gm-ceo-dan-akerson-volt-owner-meet-up-climate-one-a-truly-electric-day/


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (4:58 pm)

    Darius:
    I would think that Reagan would be harsh supporter of electrification. Even more intense than he was opposing Soviet natural gas pipeline towards Western Europe.And he was right on that as he was right on star wars.

    Ronald Reagan was the first president I was able to vote for, and to this day I feel it was the best vote I ever placed. I agree with Ronr64 that neither major political party has the corner on political foolhardiness.

    Many of you here may not be familiar with the Puget Sound, but I’ve lived in the Sound region my entire life. As the large inland waterway that encapsulates over 700 islands and rests at our nations’s northwesternmost corner. It’s a bathtub of sorts whose shape makes it extremely vulnerable to an oil spill. The cities of Seattle , Tacoma and Everett, amongst others border upon this body of water and oil tankers frequently traverse it. In 1976 Washington elected it’s first female governer, Dixie Lee Ray, Democrat. The American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) established an award in Dixie Lee Ray’s honor for engineering contributions to the field of environmental protection in 1998.

    If this all sounds good, be it known that Dixie’s lasting heritage is that she wrote two books criticizing the environmental movement and was solely responsible for assisting the major oil companies in defeating laws that would have required double-hulled oil tankers only to cruise in the Sound. Dixie’s campaign was controversially funded by the oil companies to this end, and she produced for them. After the Exxon Valdez disaster and ever since, we Washingtonians live in fear that our entire marine ecosystem will see it’s demise when a tanker runs aground. This is politics and large interests will fund anyone from any party who desires power and riches enough to throw morality out the window. It just so happens in this generation, it’s largely Republicans who are owned by Big Oil.

    I can’t vote this year. On one side I’m ideologically opposed to a man who wants to see America become Socialist Europe – to return to the ’70s-’80s welfare system and apologize more for the USA than to defend her on the world scene. On the other, we have a league of bozos representing the G.O.P.. I don’t think any of them represents conservative/moderate views, but rather do a fine job representing themselves with a hand outreached to rake in oil and gas money.

    Before we +1 sarcasm about Reagan’s “Star Wars” initiative, remember that nearly all the frontline defenses ourselves and Israel have in place to defend missile attack came from research on Star Wars. Patriot missile systems? – > Star Wars. Boeing Aircraft’s ABL Airborne Laser anti intercontinental ballistic missile system and many others could well stave off Iran’s attempt to bring nuclear war into reality. We had to show the world we could bring down a dead satellite – and China felt it was necessary to flex some muscle and repeat the action themselves. If you don’t think national and world security balances upon satellite intervention and laser accuracy, you need to do some more searching…

    Thanks Ron – Thanks for C.A.R.B..

    CHEVY RUNS DEEP — GAS IS STEEP! ,

    James


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (5:12 pm)

    Noel Park: My guys keep telling me not to discuss politics in front of the customers. Good advice.
    I almost always give you compliments and “+1s” for your comments, but not today. -1

    Yeah. I shouldn’t have sounded off. But reading a story that compares those 2 particular presidents struck me wrong. Sorry guys. I tried to think of a funnier joke but came up with nothing.

    How about I start with this: Okay… So, Clinton, Bush and Obama walk into a bar… :)


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (5:41 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: How about I start with this: Okay… So, Clinton, Bush and Obama walk into a bar…

    You should have said, “I bet Ronald Reagan would have been for the iMiev. It is the jelly-bean car!”


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (5:49 pm)

    IMHO, none of today’s Republican candidates are to the right of Reagan, and here are dozens of Reagan quotes which clearly illustrate that:

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan

    This re-branding of Reagan is just a ploy to paint today’s conservative as “radical” and “moving to the right”. A fake conclusion based on a false premise.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (6:00 pm)

    Loboc: Why else would a naturally-occurring gas (CO2), that is scientifically plant food, be deemed a pollutant? It is also (wrongfully in my opinion) deemed a ‘greenhouse gas’ when, scientifically, water vapor is much more of a greenhouse causality. If in fact, there is even any greenhouse affect in play. I am skeptical as the earth naturally balances these things whether we do anything about it or not.

    How dare you inject facts into a political debate? Next I suppose you’ll be telling people that plants need CO2.

    http://www.plantsneedco2.org/

    Now stop your breathing! You’re polluting my air! ;-)

    +1


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (6:07 pm)

    Truman: Notice many major “problem” countries in recent decades: Iraq. Iran. Libya. Venezuela. Saudi Arabia (15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers). Kuwait (invaded by Iraq for slant drilling into Iraqi oilfields, Gulf War 1991).
    What do all these countries have in common ?

    Answer: They are covered by millions of acres of useless sand that nobody cared about since the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, until oil was discovered. Venezuela?


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (6:12 pm)

    George S. Bower: Eisenhower also fretted about what to do about nuclear proliferation. He started a program called “atoms for peace”. ie Nuclear Power Plants. Quite an interesting twist I would say.

    #62

    Yup. +1

    Plus, he actually went to the first “summit meeting” with the Soviets in Geneva. He offered to give them the plans to all of our military installations and allow them unlimited access to fly reconnaissance over the US if they would do the same for us. He called it the “Open Skies” initiative. Pretty amazing. So soon we forget. Of course the Rooskies refused, but it was a pretty breathtaking offer.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (6:16 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Yeah. I shouldn’t have sounded off.

    #66

    OK, thanks. +1


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (6:18 pm)

    Open-Mind: How dare you inject facts into a political debate?

    #69

    Talk about an ironic screen name, LOL.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (6:20 pm)

    Loboc: The EPA *is* political and not scientific.
    Why else would a naturally-occurring gas (CO2), that is scientifically plant food, be deemed a pollutant?

    Hard to argue that a government agency isn’t political. However, that doesn’t mean it’s also not scientific. Hopefully these are not mutually exclusive categories.

    As a point of information, the Supreme Court didn’t hold that CO2 was a pollutant. It held it was an “emission” as that term is defined by the Clean Air Act. It would be hard to argue with that actually. What you’re probably complaining about is the endangerment finding issued in 2009. That found that the “projected concentration levels” of six gases, including CO2, posed a danger to human health and welfare (or something like that).


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (6:22 pm)

    Noel Park: #62

    reconnaissance over the US if they would do the same for us.He called it the “Open Skies” initiative.Pretty amazing.So soon we forget.Of course the Rooskies refused, but it was a pretty breathtaking offer.

    Yes, they refused. but then we developed the U2 and the SR71. The SR71 flew so high and so fast even their missile interceptors could not shoot it down.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (6:24 pm)

    Thx for the links open-mind.
    Here’s some good Ronney quotes:
    “We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions. ”

    and..

    “Welfare’s purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need for its own existence.”

    Now there are some quotes I definitely can agree with.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (6:48 pm)

    Open-Mind: IMHO, none of today’s Republican candidates are to the right of Reagan, and here are dozens of Reagan quotes which clearly illustrate that:

    Who knows where Mitt Romney stands. One day he says he’s a moderate and a liberal, the next day he says he’s a “severe conservative” (is that a disease?). But if you take the current stated positions, then Ronald Reagan is a “Leftie” compared to the current crop of Republican presidential candidates. Just to take a couple of examples, in addition to starting CARB as governor, as president Ronald Reagan raised taxes 12 times and provided amnesty to illegal immigrants. Could a Republican candidate say they’d do that? Reagan knew how to throw out red meat quotes but he wasn’t so stupid as to actually believe them. For example, he could say his “feet where set in concrete” but that didn’t mean he wouldn’t compromise and, when asked how he could do that with his feet in concrete, laugh and say that “the concrete just cracked”.

    The problem is that the Republican party is currently controlled by extreme right wing nutters who don’t understand that a tax cut can be a good thing when the top rate is 78% but a bad thing when the tax rate for the Mitt Romneys of the world is 15%. They just dogmatically believe that “Tax Cuts Always Good” and “Tax Increases Always Bad”. IOW they are religious not practical.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (7:45 pm)

    Noel Park: #62

    Yup.+1

    Plus, he actually went to the first “summit meeting” with the Soviets in Geneva.He offered to give them the plans to all of our military installations and allow them unlimited access to fly reconnaissance over the US if they would do the same for us.He called it the “Open Skies” initiative.Pretty amazing.So soon we forget.Of course the Rooskies refused, but it was a pretty breathtaking offer.

    Was that offered before or after Sputnik?

    Raymond


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (7:46 pm)

    A stock broker, driving home from Wall Street, comes to a complete halt in traffic and thinks to himself “This is much worse than usual”.

    He notices a police officer walking between the lines of stopped cars, and asks “What’s going on?” The officer replies, “Rush Limbaugh is depressed, has stopped his car, and is threatening to douse himself in gasoline and set himself on fire. He is despondent about losing his advertisers. We are taking up a collection for him.” The broker asks, “How much have you gotten so far?” The officer replies, “About 75 gallons, but a lot of folks are still siphoning.”


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (7:49 pm)

    George S. Bower: “We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker.

    #76

    Who thinks that? Pointy headed liberals like me? Obama supporters? Democrats in general? Whoever else he doesn’t like or is running against? I don’t think so! That’s just a cheap straw man he sets up so that he can knock it back down again. Intellectual dishonesty 101 IMHO.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (7:53 pm)

    DonC: Who knows where Mitt Romney stands. One day he says he’s a moderate and a liberal

    #77

    Why he’s nothing but a no good “Massachusetts moderate”, LOL. +1

    It’s interesting how “liberal”, a word which used to have very positive connotations (at least to me) has become almost as pejorative as the “n word”, and now they’re working on “moderate”. I almost added “LOL”, but it’s actually not funny.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (7:55 pm)

    Raymondjram: Was that offered before or after Sputnik?

    #78

    Before. During his 1st term. 1953 or 1954. Before the “missle gap” too. MIC in action.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (8:23 pm)

    DonC: Who knows where Mitt Romney stands. One day he says he’s a moderate and a liberal, the next day he says he’s a “severe conservative” (is that a disease?). But if you take the current stated positions, then Ronald Reagan is a “Leftie” compared to the current crop of Republican presidential candidates. Just to take a couple of examples, in addition to starting CARB as governor, as president Ronald Reagan raised taxes 12 times and provided amnesty to illegal immigrants. Could a Republican candidate say they’d do that? Reagan knew how to throw out red meat quotes but he wasn’t so stupid as to actually believe them. For example, he could say his “feet where set in concrete” but that didn’t mean he wouldn’t compromise and, when asked how he could do that with his feet in concrete, laugh and say that “the concrete just cracked”.

    The problem is that the Republican party is currently controlled by extreme right wing nutters who don’t understand that a tax cut can be a good thing when the top rate is 78% but a bad thing when the tax rate for the Mitt Romneys of the world is 15%. They just dogmatically believe that “Tax Cuts Always Good” and “Tax Increases Always Bad”. IOW they are religious not practical.

    Your political posts are a confusing slurry of fact, fiction, and opinion. He said, she said, blah blah blah.

    Where do you fall on these …

    The US border should be secured.

    A voter should have to show a photo ID.

    The tax code should be drastically simplified. Everyone should have some stake in the game.

    The government should have to live within it’s means. No more eternal borrowing.

    Most of the above are often labelled as radical or racist view points, so I’m curious where you fall on that.

    Too many people think government is free because they don’t help pay for it. Do the poor really need free government cell phones? I think there might be a connection between these two web sites:

    http://www.freegovernmentcellphones.net/
    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

    When I run for POTUS, I’m proposing my X-Y tax code:

    X = one flat tax deduction for everyone.
    Y = One flat tax rate (for any income beyond X).

    You can pick X and Y. I don’t care what they are as long as they apply to everyone, and the government must operate within that budget. Problem solved. :-)

    Regarding “Open-Mind” … that handle does not mean “opinionless”.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (8:42 pm)

    Open-Mind: Where do you fall on these …

    So, where do you stand on these ?

    - All humans are created equal and should have equal rights.
    - You can’t arrest a person based on the color of the skin
    - Slavery is not morally correct
    - Surgeons need some kind of certification before performing surgeries
    - Macro-economics & Micro-economics are not the same
    - Wall Street has disproportionate influence on the federal government
    - Rich people find it easier to deal with the complexities of the society than the poor
    - Oil companies should not be heavily subsidized
    - 1 Trillion $ a decade should not be spent securing oil in the middle east
    - Environmental regulation is necessary to preserve the common resources of the people like air & water


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (8:47 pm)

    Noel Park: #76

    Who thinks that?Pointy headed liberals like me?Obama supporters?Democrats in general?

    Anybody that thinks logically!!


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    Texas

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    Mar 15th, 2012 (8:59 pm)

    GOP in the house!

    Reagan, and the American people who voted him in are largely responsible for turning our noses from the concept of resource sustainability.

    When Reagan tore down the solar panels off of the White House and claimed it was a New Day in America, it pretty much made it OK to just consume until the cows come home.

    Today’s Republican party has now taken a hard-line to anything green. It seems like the only cool thing to do is to drill-baby-drill or use nuclear power. Everything else is for treehugging losers.

    Of course, this direction is going to end very badly for us. The next 150 year ride down the backside of the fossil fuel bell curve is going to be a dog-eat-dog world where the rich stay rich at the expense of the middle class getting poorer. It is back to the Kings / Serf model we go.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (9:18 pm)

    Texas:

    Reagan, and the American people who voted him in are largely responsible for turning our noses from the concept of resource sustainability.

    When Reagan tore down the solar panels off of the White House and claimed it was a New Day in America, it pretty much made it OK to just consume until the cows come home.

    Today’s Republican party has now taken a hard-line to anything green.

    Of course, this direction is going to end VERY BADLY for us.

    Not if we make the logical decision to go Nuclear.
    Nuclear power is more cost effective than renewables.
    If we use IFR reactor already developed it offers these practical solutions:

    consume all nuclear power plant waste.

    ….and make electricity by the Tera watt at the same time.

    Just Google the Amazon Book ” Plentiful Energy” and read for your self.

    Nuclear is a more cost effective solution than reneweables.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (10:32 pm)

    Texas: Of course, this direction is going to end very badly for us. The next 150 year ride down the backside of the fossil fuel bell curve is going to be a dog-eat-dog world where the rich stay rich at the expense of the middle class getting poorer. It is back to the Kings / Serf model we go.

    It’s too bad (hypothetically) that humans dont live to be 200 years old. That way in 100 years, there would be a lot of “I told you so” ‘s. It could be a dismal world, but that would be some gratification before the next oil war, assuming there’s any left for us to fight over.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (10:34 pm)

    Open-Mind: X = one flat tax deduction for everyone.
    Y = One flat tax rate (for any income beyond X).

    No tax on the first $48,000. 33% tax after that. All income is taxible including capital gains. No one is allowed to keep money in Swiss banks until they release all records.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:16 pm)

    kdawg: No tax on the first $48,000.33% tax after that.All income is taxible including capital gains.No one is allowed to keep money in Swiss banks until they release all records.

    I could live with that…oh wait, I basically am already. Those apposing Buffet aren’t gonna friend you.


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:33 pm)

    Where am l ? Did l fall into a political blog by mistake ? Wow !!!Phew!!
    Hope we have another subject tomorrow…..


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    Mar 15th, 2012 (11:39 pm)

    Loboc: The EPA *is* political and not scientific.

    Why else would a naturally-occurring gas (CO2), that is scientifically plant food, be deemed a pollutant? It is also (wrongfully in my opinion) deemed a ‘greenhouse gas’ when, scientifically, water vapor is much more of a greenhouse causality. If in fact, there is even any greenhouse affect in play. I am skeptical as the earth naturally balances these things whether we do anything about it or not.

    I’m not going on an AGW rant, but, since CO2 is also present in greater amounts in the presence of other pollutants, I am able to sit back and let the crazy tree-huggers fight the good fight.

    I don’t know that you’re not validating my point. You said a lot of political stuff and not one scientific iota actually refuting the scienctific basis presented for AGW.

    -co2 can simultaneously be necessary for plants and exhaled by you and contribute to AGW. Nothing in the science contradicts this. Nobody to my knowledge is arguing that we should remove all CO2 from the atmosphere.
    -water vapor can be present in the earth’s atmosphere and and have a larger net affect on radiative energy and have no impact on co2′s contribution to AGW. Nothing in the scienctific argument for AGW conflicts this. The premise is that the energy trapped by co2 is additive to the already occurring natural processes.
    -AGW as posited can be 100% accurate and I have no doubts mother nature will balance itself out in due time, just as the pollution issues in the LA area would have self corrected at some point if left alone or the Valdez spill would have or the Chernobal nuclear accident will or our nuclear testing island in the Pacific or…but is that in our or decendants’ best interests?


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (12:11 am)

    evnow:
    - All humans are created equal and should have equal rights.
    - You can’t arrest a person based on the color of the skin
    - Slavery is not morally correct
    - Surgeons need some kind of certification before performing surgeries
    - Macro-economics & Micro-economics are not the same
    - Wall Street has disproportionate influence on the federal government
    - Rich people find it easier to deal with the complexities of the society than the poor
    - Oil companies should not be heavily subsidized
    - 1 Trillion $ a decade should not be spent securing oil in the middle east
    - Environmental regulation is necessary to preserve the common resources of the people like air & water

    - All humans are created equal and should have equal rights. Yes, but not guaranteed equal results.

    - You can’t arrest a person based on the color of the skin. Agree.

    - Slavery is not morally correct. Of course not. Ironically, Africa is the only continent where slavery is still practiced. I’m still puzzled why black Americans prefer the term “African American”. Are there “African Europeans” in UK and “African Asians” in Japan? Am I a European American?

    - Surgeons need some kind of certification before performing surgeries. Sure.

    - Macro-economics & Micro-economics are not the same. Agree.

    - Wall Street has disproportionate influence on the federal government. Yeah, I suppose. As do unions and lawyers.

    - Rich people find it easier to deal with the complexities of the society than the poor.
    “Complexities of the society”. Not sure what you mean. I’m poor compared to Lindsey Lohan, yet she has many more problem with society.

    - Oil companies should not be heavily subsidized.
    “Subsidized”. That’s a 2-edged word. I’ve read that the US federal government receives about 50 cents/gallon in tax revenue. I’ve also read (but cannot prove) the oil companies only make 2 cents/gallon while paying about $40 billion in annual taxes. If those stats are correct, perhaps the oil companies are heavily subsidizing the government.

    - 1 Trillion $ a decade should not be spent securing oil in the middle east.
    We should probably be using our own oil instead. Still … seems like a bargain compared to the trillion dollar “stimulus” that President Obama signed after only 6 weeks in office, even though most of Congress (and probably he) had not read it. Alas … I got laid off anyway, and I’m still waiting for the high-speed train I was promised. Hopefully they will build a great high-speed rail system, then NOT limit it to 65 MPH to save train gas. ;-)

    - Environmental regulation is necessary to preserve the common resources of the people like air & water.
    Yes, but ever since my breath was declared a pollutant, I no longer trust the EPA performing this task.


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (12:23 am)

    Noel Park: Who thinks that? Pointy headed liberals like me? Obama supporters? Democrats in general? Whoever else he doesn’t like or is running against? I don’t think so! That’s just a cheap straw man he sets up so that he can knock it back down again. Intellectual dishonesty 101 IMHO.

    3 examples…

    When irresponsible people bury themselves in credit card debt, liberals are more likely to blame the evil credit card companies instead of the dumb people who acquired them.

    When people buy houses they clearly cannot afford and then default on those “sub-prime” loans, the liberals tend to blame the “predatory lenders” more than the people who made the choice to seek those loans.

    When Gabby Gifford got shot by that lunatic A-hole, a lot of liberals blamed Sarah Palin and her “Tea Party rhetoric” instead of the lunatic A-hole. Probably just a political ploy (not stupidity), but it still happened.


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (4:24 am)

    What many dont realize that the Gop has become very radical to please its base … Just look at the positions they espouse ..abortion issue and impose their will on others, tax cuts for the rich then complain about deficit, privatize SS (good lord) , cuts in education/environment, no regulations no control over agencies such as SEC etc no controls by FDA and list goes on on on … they all proud of 2nd amendment to own guns but not AK-47, machine guns, grenades etc Just look at the homicide rate in this country and this nation pays a heavy price for it ..
    I know it is political but it is these policies they pursue and with the support of a propaganda channel called Fix news which excels in lies, untruths and not an iota sense of true journalisim ..they feed the bs to the folks with low IQ and want to run the country. Just look back and Dubya started a war in Iraq for which this nation paid dearly and for what? US frittered trillions of $$ and lives in that country with no benefit to this nation?
    This is what GOP represents and still does. They can only exist on the far right to generate hatred for others to keep their base. So sad.


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (7:26 am)

    Regan? No way!

    Everyone knows that Obama invented the EV. Nor have they even heard of Michael Faraday and his huge 19th century contribution to our knowledge and well-being. Nor would they give any credit to Tesla Motors, GM, Nissan, Renault, and Mitsubishi’s 21st century contributions.

    GSP


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (7:36 am)

    Open-Mind: Am I a European American?

    Chances are: yes. Unless your ancestors arrived here before 1492, in which case you would be an Asian-American. Or, if they arrived later, from a non-European continent, such as Africa, Australia, or Asia.

    No Humans are originally from the Americas.

    GSP


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (8:54 am)

    GSP: Chances are: yes. Unless your ancestors arrived here before 1492, in which case you would be an Asian-American. Or, if they arrived later, from a non-European continent, such as Africa, Australia, or Asia.
    No Humans are originally from the Americas.
    GSP

    Actually we are all *African Americans*. Human life started in Africa, it just wasn’t called Africa then. Once there was a guy on my hockey team, with blonde hair and blue eyes, who was from South Africa, but now a US citizen. I used to say he was an African American. It’s all just semantics to me.


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (11:18 am)

    Open-Mind: 3 examples…

    When irresponsible people bury themselves in credit card debt, liberals are more likely to blame the evil credit card companies instead of the dumb people who acquired them.

    When people buy houses they clearly cannot afford and then default on those “sub-prime” loans, the liberals tend to blame the “predatory lenders” more than the people who made the choice to seek those loans.

    When Gabby Gifford got shot by that lunatic A-hole, a lot of liberals blamed Sarah Palin and her “Tea Party rhetoric” instead of the lunatic A-hole.Probably just a political ploy (not stupidity), but it still happened.

    Do you really think it matters who pays the blame game? Just pick a side and tell me who is mistake free and I’ll gladly toss a few stones into their glass houses. The point is to identify problems and pick the best solutions and not become hamstrung by our own ideologies.

    Sometimes you drink the Kool-Aid and it slakes your thirst for while. Other times it sets up the precursors for diabetes. And for the followers of Jim Jones, it was the last thing they ever did. Leaders of any and all parties would be happier if folks just shut up and drank the Kool-Aid. How about you, are you drinking any?


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (11:24 am)

    kdawg: No one is allowed to keep money in Swiss banks until they release all records.

    Uneforceable. Did I spell that correctly?


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (11:31 am)

    jeffhre: The point is to identify problems and pick the best solutions and not become hamstrung by our own ideologies.

    That would be the scientific approach, but there’s no room in goverment for science because religion and ideologies are taking up all the oxygen. For example, why is the country debating birth control in the year 2012… really? Another example is cutting off funds to UNESCO. I can’t put it better than John Oliver, “We are going to cut of our nose to spite our face. This will show them we really mean business…. We’re the good guys…. always”.


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (5:29 pm)

    jeffhre: Do you really think it matters who pays the blame game?

    Yes, I think it matters.

    I don’t want to be forced to pay my neighbor’s mortgage.
    I don’t want to be forced to pay my neighbor’s credit cards.
    I don’t want to be forced to buy my neighbor’s cell phone.


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (5:34 pm)

    kdawg: For example, why is the country debating birth control in the year 2012… really?

    This was a smokescreen issue raised by liberal commentators during the presidential debates. Here’s my view on that…

    I don’t want to be forced to buy my neighbor’s birth control.


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (6:06 pm)

    Open-Mind: I don’t want to be forced to buy my neighbor’s birth control.

    Unfortunately you live in a society, so you can’t choose what you will and will not pay for. So what is the lesser of the evils, paying for preventative care for women, or paying for abortions, or paying for people who can’t afford kids? And this is just talking about the $ part which you seem to focus on.

    Regarding healthcare in general (not sure if you OK with buying men Viagra), you can always opt out of your company’s healthcare plan, and buy your own private healthcare.


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    Mar 16th, 2012 (10:30 pm)

    kdawg: Unfortunately you live in a society, so you can’t choose what you will and will not pay for. So what is the lesser of the evils, paying for preventative care for women, or paying for abortions, or paying for people who can’t afford kids? And this is just talking about the $ part which you seem to focus on.

    Since personal responsibility and rational thought both seem to be out of the question, let me reverse your analogy and play it back to you:

    Like women, I also have needs, so I now expect society to purchase for my porn and lubricant.

    What? You don’t want to pay? I’m selfish and stupid? Really? Well…

    Unfortunately kdawg you live in a society, so you can’t choose what you will and will not pay for. So what is the lesser of the evils, paying for my preventative sex, or paying for the women I might impregnate if not properly satisfied? And this is just talking about the $ part which you seem to focus on.

    See the difference yet?

    On planet-conservative, sex and pregnancy are choices. On planet-liberal, they’re both diseases requiring “preventative care”.


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    Mar 17th, 2012 (1:21 am)

    Open-Mind: See the difference yet?
    On planet-conservative, sex and pregnancy are choices. On planet-liberal, they’re both diseases requiring “preventative care”.

    Yes, one is a real health issue, the other is a joke. Life is full of choices. Driving a car is a choice, so does that mean if they get in a car accident your not going to pay for the emergency room visit? You’re the one lacking rational thought. Or do you actually believe your solution would help prevent unwanted pregnancies? Are your religious beliefs your motive? Most Catholics (98%) have used birth control. This is just another (archaic I might add) attempt to attack Obama. There’s nothing more to it. Like I said before, you can buy your own private healthcare. You will not be paying for anyone’s birth control. Also, nothing is stopping the paychecks the religious institutions are giving to their employees, to be used for buying birth control, and probably a lot of other things the Catholic church doesn’t like. How far should the church’s reach go? For conservatives who don’t like to be controlled by a big brother, it seems odd they give up all their freedoms to a church. I haven’t even brought up that birth control is actually prescribed to treat many things beside preventing pregnancy. But oh well, let’s not think logically and stick to our ideals, while women who didn’t want to, become pregnant, and men can still get their boner pills. Yeah.. that seems like the smart thing to do.


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    Mar 17th, 2012 (5:23 pm)

    CorvetteGuy:
    Barack Obama… You’re no Ronald Reagan. World leaders respected, ( and feared ) Reagan’s resolve. Obama has made the USA the laughable ‘paper tiger’ on the world stage.

    Oooo! Did I say that out loud? Sorry.

    On another note, I’m having a tough time selling our Volt Demo now that there are a total of $11,000 in Credits and Rebates here in my town. Everyone wants the new HOV model instead. As long as the credits are there, I’m not sure how we can convince someone to buy used… Unless we give it away…

    You should get out more. Obama gets more respect than Reagan did. Them furriers respect actual, you know, thought.