By Ray Iannuzzelli PE
Note: This is a rewrite of an earlier article comparing our new 2012 Volt with our not-so-new 2010 Prius.
I suppose I’ve always been a bit of a car guy. At the age of 16, my brother and I already had three cars and performed a nearly successful engine rebuild on our 1957 Chevy convertible. During my adult life as a parent, engineer, runner, amateur cook, and car aficionado, I’ve had several GTOs, BMWs, and other non-performance cars. My two most recent BMWs are shown below.
2008 BMW 135i 2000 BMW Z3
However, my 2012 Volt is unique among all of them. Although not as peppy as the 135i that I traded-in on my Volt, it is nearly as much fun to drive.
My recent fascination with electrics started a few years ago when I started a consulting gig for a battery supplier. Although not responsible for the design of vehicles, my job brought me close enough to get bitten by the electric car bug. I knew I had to have one. At this point I must give some credit to my dear wife of nearly 40 years. As an environmentalist of long-standing she convinced me back in 2004 that the new model Prius would be a wise investment. So, now on our second Prius (a 2010 model IV), we have some street credibility when it comes to environmentally friendly vehicles.
2012 Volt and 2010 Prius IV (blue in background)
So How Do They Compare?
As an engineer you just knew there would be some tech talk. Yes, but it will be short and sweet. In comparing my 2012 Volt and 2010 Prius I want to know which car is better to drive on a trip. For example, if we are planning a 100 mile journey which car is most economical? How about a 200 mile trip or longer?
Before I can get down to comparing the two vehicles, I needed to install one piece of monitoring equipment for the Volt, i.e. an energy meter that would tell me how much energy my Volt consumes during a recharge.
This is necessary because the Volt’s internal readout only tells how much electrical energy (KWh) is used from the battery to travel a given number of miles, i.e. net energy used. I call this the battery specific energy (KWhb/mile). However, for a valid comparison what is needed is the total amount of energy to charge the battery, i.e. gross energy used. I call this the true specific energy (KWhT/mile). The battery and true specific energies are different because of the pumping and fluid heating/cooling energy required to maintain the battery temperature during charging. The true specific energy should always be greater than or equal to the battery specific energy.
Figure 1 shows the gross and net specific energy history over the past three months or so. Again, the difference between these is that the net specific energy is determined using the Volt instrument readout while the gross specific energy is determined using the KWh meter readout. There appears to be a 0.032 KWh/mile overhead associated with the pumps and heaters when charging the Volt’s batteries.
The graph below makes the decision easy. Figure 2 compares the Volt and Prius based on the energy used (mpge) as well as on the cost of the energy (mpg$). It shows the breakeven trip at around 90 miles or 60 miles depending on whether energy or current cost is the basis of the comparison, respectively.
The assumptions used to generate figure 2 are given below:
1) average EPA gasoline mileage
2) see figure 1 which is based on data from my volt between 11/18/11 and 2/16/12
3) recent price of 89 octane gasoline in my locality
4) based on recent utility electric bills
5) average Prius mileage between 9/18/10 and 2/17/12 ~ 50.1 mpg
6) data averaged from several websites
Figure 3 is presented to show the effect of $4 per gallon gasoline on the comparison. This is a very real and I feel reasonable projection given recent trends.
Figure 3 now shows the breakeven trip at around 90 miles or 67 miles depending on whether energy or cost is the basis of the comparison, respectively. The two curves overlap at $6 per gallon gasoline. This suggests that the true cost of gasoline based on its energy content should be around $6 per gallon.
Conclusions:
1) The criterion upon which a comparison can be made between the performance of the Volt and Prius is technically straightforward. If we use as a criterion the amount of energy consumed, the Volt shows a miles driven breakeven of about 90 miles. Whereas, if we use the cost of the energy consumed, then the miles driven breakeven falls to about 60 miles.
2) A clear implication here is that as gas prices rise relative to the electric rate, the $-breakeven will approach the energy-breakeven at around $6 per gallon.
3) Of course the electric rate and gas price are both relative to the local market in which the comparison is made.
4) Also, the time-of-year and temperature are additional variables that will affect the comparisons.
5) During the time of my comparison when I had the KWh meter installed there was not much variation in the amount of energy required for pumping and heating the battery. The average remained fairly constant at 1 KWh.
This entry was posted on Thursday, February 23rd, 2012 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (6:59 am)So for a longish theoretical trip, Prius may do better.
How about posting actual kwh and gallons (leave out the local dollar calcs) for both cars for a year of data. The real drive cycle is where Volt is surprising.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (7:10 am)Nice analysis.
Though I know you performed the calculations using your own rates, it might be useful to the reader to see the comparison using the national average $/kWh which is around $0.11/kWhr. Many local electric companies are now offering discounted Level 2 EV charging rates. Here in the Detroit area, we can get <$0.08/kWh during off-peak hours.
+9
Feb 23rd, 2012 (7:47 am)Cool comparison. We have a 2010 Prius and 2012 Volt in our household, too. For me, the one thing you can’t compare financially is comfort. I am willing to give up a little more gas on longer trips and take the Volt as I find it much more comfortable than the Prius.
+1
Feb 23rd, 2012 (7:57 am)Thanks for the detailed feedback. I might have to put together a graph with the Atlanta area information and my driving habits:
1) $0.04 / kWh electric rate ($0.08 in the summer)
2) $3.58 / gallon gas
3) 0.25 kWh/mile driving
Feb 23rd, 2012 (7:59 am)You mention pumps and thermal control losses but doesn’t the gross also include charging losses (line, charger, battery)?
It is appropriately noted that energy rate, both gas and electric, will affect the results as well as an example of how results are affected by gasoline price changes. It should also be noted that your electric rate is significantly above the national average and would be a good example to show how the results would be affected by the change to this rate. Regardless, the discerning reader should get a clear picture of how the energy usages for extended trips compare on a cost and energy content basis.
Personally, the decision would be simpler. Which would use less gas? That is my primary reason for owning the Volt and would be for a Prius if I owned one of them as well. My guess is this would be around 170 miles for me.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (8:01 am)This was a good comparison on your part. The curves and breakeven points for a single trip between the Prius and VOLT are variable as to existing electrical rates. So my MPG$ is better than yours since my electrical cost is 35% lower than yours (or yours are 55% higher than mine, just added that so people realize how data be looked at several ways).
I do appreciate your comparison of actual energy used to recharge since there are losses in the transmission. Your actual energy data, use vs charge, has a lower % difference than I was assuming. So my estimated energy consumed is lower thanks to your handy chart.
The bottom line is that electrifying the vehicle is a real energy savings (either plug in or hybrid). These two vehicles just show that the drill baby, drill is not the best solution to our energy dependency and high oil consumption.
For me the VOLT is a more efficient and a cost savings vehicle for my daily use (since 6 out of 7 days I am always in EV mode, never use gas). If I was to take a long trip a Prius could be more efficient.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (8:14 am)Great comparison! Like a few of the others, I am in an area in which the gas prices are slightly higher ($3.65 for regular in the Prius $3.90 for premium in the Volt) than yours and the electricity prices lower, ($0.10 per kWh) so I have to play with the numbers a bit to see what my break even point would be financially. I think I would pay the same for both electricity and premium gasoline in my Volt at around 80 miles, with the Prius being cheaper to drive on trips of more than 80 miles. I might be able to stretch that 80 miles a bit by using the MM, but the fact is that GM really should do all it can to increase the CS mpg in the GenII Volt to make it competitive with the high efficiency hybrid options out there, even if it is just the once a month trip to the beach.
That having been said, having ridden in both, I would still drive the Volt on the roadtrip rather than a Prius, the Volt is just a much more fun car to drive and its CS mpg is still pretty decent. I have never gotten a Volt over 45 mph, but I have a feeling that those bucket seats and the silent drive make it ride like a BMW 3-series at speed. And regarding efficiency, any mpg over 30 mpg is ok, any mpg over 40 mpg is outstanding in my book. Which is why Ford is the dark horse moving up on the outside of the pack right now…
Feb 23rd, 2012 (8:26 am)I get $0.08 all day long. And my gasoline is usually higher than the national average by 8-10 cents.
-2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (8:27 am)2) A clear implication here is that as gas prices rise relative to the electric rate, the $-breakeven will approach the energy-breakeven at around $6 per gallon.
_____________________________________________________________
I strongly disagree with the above statement, “gas prices rise relative to the electric rate “. Gas prices does not rise relative to the electric rate. If this simple equation is inaccurate from the author, I would not even bother reading the details and I would make this comparison of the Volt and Prius not accurate.
+1
Feb 23rd, 2012 (8:29 am)Wow future projections, or back from the future?
Sorry couldn’t resist, check the date ranges in Figure 1.
+3
Feb 23rd, 2012 (8:31 am)If you going to compare cost to drive per mile, what about cost to replace tires, oil changes, brake pads, transmission fluid, depreciation, insurance, etc.
Didn’t Kiplinger do this, and found the Volt was the cheaper car to operate, even cheaper than a Nissan Leaf somehow?
+13
Feb 23rd, 2012 (8:32 am)Nice article. But I rather buy an American EV or hybrid, and not an import. All the money the Prius saves on gas is not enough to compensate the loss in American income on the sale. As the buyer, you save money, but the American workers will not make any. We need to reduce oil imports, but buying imported EVs or hybrids just changes the direction the money is leaving the country
I strongly recommend waithng the new vehicles that GM and Ford brings this year as 2013 models, and compare them with all the imports. Then we can really save money both as a buyer and as workers.
Raymond
Feb 23rd, 2012 (8:38 am)I live in Roswell GA just north of Atlanta and my electric rate is 0.11 / kWh with Sawnee. Who is your electric utility provider offering 4 cents?
Feb 23rd, 2012 (8:52 am)Very interesting, but I think you are using local ‘city’ driving average MPG for both the Prius and Volt vs. what the long-distance MPG would be for both vehicles. If you drive long distance (over 60 miles) in either car at a controlled 60 MPH you will get higher MPG rates than 37/Volt or 50/Prius.
I haven’t done a long ride yet in my Volt, but will be doing an 800 mile ride soon.
Last year I did an 800 mile trip in my 2010 Prius at a cruise-controlled 60 MPH (yeah, painful holding there trust me) and I got 65.5 MPG back over the entire distance.
I can only assume the Volt will give me better than 37 MPG for the same drive at cruise-controlled 60 MPH.
Rick
+1
Feb 23rd, 2012 (9:10 am)JDan,
Thanks for catching the x-axis data range error; it should be 2011 to 2012.
I checked my article and it looks OK. I guess the data shift occured during the translation to GM-Volt.com.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (9:13 am)Nice comparison. Makes me wonder how the graph would look if you had a Tesla MODEL S with a 300 mile 85kWh battery as a third comparison.
NPNS!
Volt#671
Feb 23rd, 2012 (9:32 am)Your comment made me think about the Volts ICE RPMs. When the Volt goes beyond 72 mph and the ICE engages the planetary gear, is the ICE running at its highest regulated RPM? If so what is the fuel consumption (mpgs) at that point? If you go 80 mph and the ICE is still running at the same RPM’s as when it was doing 72 mph, what would its mpgs be then? Keep in mind in one hour you traveled an additional 8 miles at the higher speed. Can you redline the ICE in a Volt? Do you get better mileage in a Volt the faster you go? Is the answer the same for a Fisker Karma?
NPNS!
Volt#671
+3
Feb 23rd, 2012 (9:53 am)=================================
I thought maybe i missed the chapter in the Volt manual concerning the operation of the Flux Capacitor……….
So what I am getting out of all of this is that if you drive the normal daily driving patterns that almost 80% of Americans do, you will get more than twice the mileage of a Prius. If you go on a longer trip, and not try to hypermile, but drive like you really want to get there, you will get close to what the Prius gets.
So GM’s design is the better approach for people that drive less than 50 miles per day on average. Isn’t that what they have been saying all along?
My only question is: In Figure 3, why did you start the graph at 35 miles instead of zero?
C-5277 – Proudly Purchased On 10-04-2011 In Youngstown, Ohio
+1
Feb 23rd, 2012 (9:55 am)The fuel saving in the Volt are very dependent on your driving distance between charges. I’ve started an excel spreadsheet in an attempt to quantify $ saved vs. an ICE vehicle. I’m estimating $19,000 fuel saving over 8yrs compared to our previous car (Honda CRV). I wish GM had an online calculator that allowed the user to enter their zip code and driving patterns and produce a “total cost of ownership” out to 10yrs. MyVolt website could display real-time energy cost (using local electric and gasoline cost) and compare to a user inputted ICE vehicle. This would be a great sales tool! I would be happy to share the spreadsheet with anyone interested in using it or enhancing it.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (10:16 am)I was going to ask that very question. THe volt looks quite a bit more roomy than the prius.
And on a long trip thwat is definitely worth a lot.
+6
Feb 23rd, 2012 (10:20 am)Raymondjram,
I agree 100%. But most people give no thought at all to saving american jobs unless its their own ,which eventually the layoffs works its way around to them.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (10:33 am)You might consider posting your fill ups on Fuelly.com for all the world to see.
Right now there are only 4 Volts and hundreds of Prius’s registered.
+3
Feb 23rd, 2012 (10:47 am)Randy,
I think the Prius is actually a little larger but the seats in the Volt are much more comfortable. And, the Prius will sit 3 in the back seat but unless all 3 are very small, no one back there will be comfortable.
-5
Feb 23rd, 2012 (10:51 am)There’s 2 more inches available for legroom in back of the Prius. The cargo area is larger as well. It also offers a flat surface, which makes loading & unloading cargo much easier.
Comparing efficiency of a 2010 Prius to a 2012 Volt is a bit odd considering the enormous MSRP difference, but understandable considering that’s all there was to work with.
Next month, it will be comparing 2010 Prius to 2012 Prius PHV.
+6
Feb 23rd, 2012 (11:06 am)Great to see some real world data. Thanks for taking the time to post. The $.17/kWh is very high.
Well it’s also like comparing a Corolla to a BMW 3 series. It’s just that there isn’t a BMW 3 series that gets better MPG than a Corolla.
The point of the Volt is that you get it all (except for the legroom in the back). Better MPG and lower running costs than a Prius and great handling and performance. What’s not to like?
+4
Feb 23rd, 2012 (11:22 am)OT , Anyone see the article at ..http://www.hybridcars.com/news/story-teslas-turning-bricks-making-rounds-41511.html
Makes me realize that GM is doing things right in protecting the battery pack so well…..
Good for you GM…
HaroldC
-13
Feb 23rd, 2012 (11:29 am)(click to show comment)
+11
Feb 23rd, 2012 (11:30 am)It’s laughable seeing a constant 50 MPG on the chart for the old Prius. 4 of my VOLT customers were previous Toyota owners and they told me their cars would only do 37 to 40 MPGs on a good day. The only reason they bought them was for the HOV Lane sticker, which is now expired. The Chevy Sonic and Cruze can do 40 or better without all of the Hybrid stuff. Prius mileage figures are way overblown in the real world.
Feb 23rd, 2012 (12:04 pm)What will be more fun is the comparison of the VOLT vs. PIP —
VOLTs 40 AER vs. PIP 15 AER is certainly enough to convince anyone but johnboy, but here’s more:
$46,265 VOLT fully loaded MSRP
$850 Destination Charge
-$7,500 Federal Tax Credit
-$1,500 California Rebate
-$2,000 City of Riverside Rebate
$35,265 Total Net Cost
$39,525 Prius Plug-In Hybrid Advanced MSRP
$760 Destination Charge
-$2,500 Federal Tax Credit
-$1,500 California Rebate
$36,285 Total Net Cost
In my town, the VOLT ends up $1,020 less than the Plug-In Prius… but everywhere else the VOLT is only $980 more with more content. Remember: You’ll need to buy the Plug-in Hybrid Advanced model to obtain remote cabin conditioning via the grid, a new touch-screen display, nav system and Toyota’s new Entune radio.
http://www.pikeresearch.com/blog/prius-plug-in-versus-volt-which-costs-less-to-drive
Top All-Electric Speed:
VOLT = 100 —- PRIUS = 15 to 62 Depending on conditions.
(Ooops! Then that pesky gas engine comes on again and you’re back to Old Prius mode.)
And the Plug-in Prius is only being launched in 14 states.
-7
Feb 23rd, 2012 (12:13 pm)Like I said, heavy dependency.
There’s also the blatant avoidance of the standard model, which costs much less.
+5
Feb 23rd, 2012 (12:28 pm)$39,145 Base VOLT MSRP
$850 Destination Charge
-$7,500 Federal Tax Credit
-$1,500 California Rebate
-$2,000 City of Riverside Rebate
$28,995 Total Net Cost
$32,000 Prius Plug-In Hybrid Base MSRP
$760 Destination Charge
-$2,500 Federal Tax Credit
-$1,500 California Rebate
$28,760 Total Net Cost
The Base VOLT is only $235 higher than the Base PIP with much more standard features, and performance that blows a Prius away.
Just because YOU don’t like the VOLT getting a bigger rebate than the Prius doesn’t mean everyone else isn’t going to take advantage of it… especially now that gas is OVER $4.00 per gallon.
You go right ahead and spend more for a PIP… That SSWWWOOOOOOSHHHHHHhhhh you hear going past you will the MORE EFFICIENT and MORE-FUN-TO-DRIVE “Extended Range Electric Volt” from Chevrolet. Boo-YAH !!!
+1
Feb 23rd, 2012 (12:35 pm)No mention of the Prius MPG in cold weather?
A local TV station interviewed Prius owners getting 26mpg in our area during the winter months…
my commute is 9 miles each way … I would still be all elec. Our elec rate is 9cents per KWH. 17 cents per KWH is pretty high! I think the average in the US is about 10cent per KWH.
For essentially the same price .. the Volt is a much better choice… plus your supporting a American company not the Japanese who put a $20,000 tariff on the Volt!!!
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (12:41 pm)Scary. Now my question is, what happens if you leave a Volt in a parking lot for 3 months? Is the battery chemistry OK with that? Will parasitic losses take the battery to zero, or will the engine kick on for a bit?
-6
Feb 23rd, 2012 (12:47 pm)There are several videos available on YouTube clearly showing what happens during the cold season, in great detail, quite unlike that vague implication.
For example… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bAs0i9E5Rs
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (12:53 pm)You mean like the 40 MPG, no cold air when in electric mode, Toyota Hybrid Echo, I mean 1st Gen Prius.
+7
Feb 23rd, 2012 (12:55 pm)john1701a,
I do not know much about the Prius since I don’t own one. A couple of times a took a Prius taxi. It did not impress me much. The interior was rather spartan but I guess all taxi cars are similar on that point.
But what I know is that a number of people on this forum that own a Prius made the decision to buy a Volt in spite of the higher initial cost to either replace the Prius or keep it as a second vehicle
How many that have actually owned a Volt have decided to ditch it over a Prius?
Feb 23rd, 2012 (12:56 pm)My wife consistently gets between 50-52 MPG in her 2010 Prius on summer gas. In the winter it drops to 45-47. Her commute is 50 miles round trip, 85% highway at 70 MPH. I have no first hand knowledge of the mileage of the previous generations but I have never heard of 37 MPG from any Prius owner.
+8
Feb 23rd, 2012 (1:28 pm)There’s the difference. Have her try the 91, 10, 60, 5 or 405 freeways with stop and go traffic on any weekday morning. Any vehicle that can run at a sustained speed 85% of the time will score better mileage. Prius fanatics only report mileage under optimum conditions. That’s why it’s called ‘Spin’.
-9
Feb 23rd, 2012 (2:04 pm)Golly. With $10K in government subsidies, even the Volt can be made to look atractive. I’m so very impressed.
Tell us, oh Mighty CorvetteGuy, how many tax-assisted Volts is GM going to sell this month? At retail, of course. Inquiring minds want to know.
+5
Feb 23rd, 2012 (2:06 pm)Excellent report, Ray, thank you!
I see three minor technical errors in your analysis and one fundamental “error”.
Minor error #1: You are using 89 octane gas, but GM recommends premium gas for the Volt. I can see getting away with 89 if you burn it pretty quickly, but you really should stick with the manufacturers recommendation for the purpose of this calculation (like you did with the EPA MPG number).
Minor error #2: I wouldn’t attribute the gross vs. net kWh difference to just the pumps and heaters. The charger (AC/DC rectifier) efficiency and battery efficiency itself will contribute. You should generalize that definition a bit more. Just my opinion
Minor error #3: That electricity cost is highly variable across the US. I am paying $0.055 per kWh, about a nickel per kWh, here in Atlanta. That’s going to push the crossover distance way out. You should run the calcs to show how much it changes for cheaper electricity rates.
Major “error”: I find it very frustrating that people compare the Volt and the Prius on efficiency alone. The Volt BLOWS AWAY the Prius on performance (e.g. acceleration). A Volt has as much torque as a Mustang! On the basis of “fun to drive” the cars are in completely different segments. Plus there are the aesthetic issues, such as quality of interior and general sporty appearance of the car. I really think ANY analysis that compares the two cars should make these points loud and clear — the Volt is certainly more fun to drive than a Prius and STILL beats it on most typical driving scenarios. As Dan Akerson says, I wouldn’t be caught dead in a Prius!
Up to nearly 3000 miles on one tank in my Volt,
Chris C., PE
+9
Feb 23rd, 2012 (2:34 pm)As many as possible. And thanks for chipping in your tax dollars to make it happen!
+9
Feb 23rd, 2012 (2:50 pm)Toyota buyers are getting $4,000 buckaroos from taxpayers to drive a Prius. Where’s the bitchin’ about that? Oh… I guess those folks will decline to accept the money on some moral basis?! Hah!
-7
Feb 23rd, 2012 (3:25 pm)-9°F is optimum !?!
How about not cherry picking, reporting only on-going real-world totals?
55,001 miles / 1,099 gallons = 50 MPG
That’s using only E10 and includes three winters in Minnesota, plus a few trips up north with bikes on the back.
+1
Feb 23rd, 2012 (3:26 pm)For those who don’t get the ChevyVolt FB updates:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1073308_chevy-volts-and-gun-racks-a-right-wingers-perspective
Chevy Volts And Gun Racks: A Right-Winger’s Perspective
+5
Feb 23rd, 2012 (3:39 pm)Not even close to a VOLT.
How about Jay Leno? He drives the 405 freeway and has passed 11,000 miles and still is running on his original 9.3 gallon tank of gas! 11,000 miles / 9.3 gallons = 1,182.79 MPG
http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/19/jay-lenos-chevy-volt-still-has-original-tank-of-gas-11-000-mil/
+9
Feb 23rd, 2012 (3:49 pm)Everything is overblown because it’s a Toyota. Put the Toyota name on a Volt and you’d see much better reports. The media in the US would like to destroy our domestic car companies.
+5
Feb 23rd, 2012 (4:20 pm)It’s actually way better than that if you consider that the tank is still partially full.
Once you get over 230mpg or so, it really doesn’t matter any more. You’re not using any gas to speak of.
The maximum Prius can get is about 50mpg unless you come across some crazy hyper-miler. Volt has no such limitation. Heck the entire OnStar fleet (which is pretty much all Volts on the road) is 111mpg AVERAGE.
-7
Feb 23rd, 2012 (4:37 pm)Some of us have other priorities, like getting clean & efficient technology into the driveways of typical consumers.
Or just plug it in.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (4:39 pm)Where can you find the fleet OnStart data, or was this a quote from GM? I wish the data was published, just keep the names/vins private.
+4
Feb 23rd, 2012 (4:45 pm)Denying that a VOLT owner can achieve about 1,200 Miles-Per-Gallon does not change the fact that the VOLT has been PROVEN to achieve about 1,200 Miles-Per-Gallon.
Feb 23rd, 2012 (4:45 pm)—-
+3
Feb 23rd, 2012 (4:48 pm)All of the talk about operating costs; Rob Peterson just posted an article on the Volt math on the GM site.
Here’s the summary, but you should read full article.
So to summarize:
-Average cost to charge the Volt for 35 miles of EV driving: $1.50
-MPG of the Volt in extended-range mode: 35 city / 40 highway or 37 combined
-Average cost per mile so far from Volt drivers: $.03 – .06
-Cost per mile of a conventional vehicle that gets 30 mpg with gas at $3.90 per gallon: $.13
Math is hard, but when used for good, it can also be electrifying.
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:09 pm)See http://www.voltstats.net
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:11 pm)Hi ChrisC you PE you (it rhymes)
-8
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:17 pm)The only doubt related to being able to do that was cost… remember… nicely under $30,000 ?
+1
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:17 pm)Good analysis Ray. I would say that even for people who drive 80 miles a day, the Volt is still worthwhile as they will still achieve about 80 MPG (gas only).
Even though the comparison does look that super at 80 miles on your plot on an MPGe basis, It is still worth it for most Volt drivers. Remember the primary reason for buying the Volt is to cut the amount of gas used.
At 80 miles a day one would still achieve about 80 MPG gas and there are no other cars on the road that can touch that.
+4
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:19 pm)Volt would have been 50mpg+
Some autoblog post (old one ) says :
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/11/03/where-does-erev-technology-go-from-here/
The range-extender engine? “When we modeled the Volt’s engine, theoretically we could have gotten to high 40s or low 50s mpg in gasoline mode. But we would have had to run it continuously at 3500-3800 rpm and just switch it on and off, and the noise and pleasability wouldn’t work. We had to drop it down, which got us to 37-38 mpg. But I think a lot of fuel economy still can be gained without major expenditures in tooling or engineering.”
+1
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:20 pm)Make sure you check out tomorrows lead article. It is on this subject. I think you will find it very interesting!!!
PS that is a hint. There will be another new article again tomorrow.
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:35 pm)It was a quote from GM when they aggregated all the OnStar data. I think some reporter actually backed into that number as GM reported that Volts were going around 1,000 miles between fillups on average. 1000/9 ~ 111mpg.
+4
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:36 pm)Just a note on Prius mpg. The Prius is a very impressively efficient piece of kit, but most drivers aren’t getting 50 mpg with it. The vast majority are getting a real world, year round, mpg in the area of 42 to 50 mpg with 46 mpg looking to be the median. Fuelly.com has hundreds of Prius owners on it and there are some who are up to 60 mpg, but only 3 out of nearly 900 Prius drivers.
Large BUT coming up here, but the Prius built since 2010 jumped 1.5 mpg and the 2012 seems to have jumped that much again. So even self reported Prius mpg is only now starting to approach 48.5 mpg. But that is pretty impressive. I wouldn’t want to drive a Prius every day, but it is nice to know that there is a car for those that are willing to do so.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius
+3
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:38 pm)Ok, so they were off by ~10%. Not a bad swag that early on.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:42 pm)Yes, I go there once in awhile, but that only has about 500ppl. I want the data on the 10,000 Volts out there.
-7
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:46 pm)What part of $10K > $4K confuses you?
No, I don’t think the subsidy for the Prius is a particularly good idea, either. However, Toyota is at least building a car to a price point that’s relevant. It’s only Federal largesse that makes the Volt look vaguely competitive.
-7
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:48 pm)Again with the dependency. Geez!
-10
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:49 pm)(click to show comment)
+6
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:49 pm)With gas over $4.00 per gallon, a typical VOLT owner will save more than $10,000 over the 8-year warranty life of the battery pack. How much gas will your Prius use over 8 years? At least 20 to 60 times more.
-8
Feb 23rd, 2012 (5:56 pm)So, the typical Volt owner will save $10K of the extra $13K he spent for the Volt vs a Prius C? That’s quite the incentive.
Of course, you’re not factoring in the likely extra repairs and downtime of a GM car vs a Prius (consistently rated one of the most reliable cars available). Not to mention the more expensive car will carry higher insurance rates and license fees.
Feb 23rd, 2012 (6:51 pm)Is isuzu part of GM ?
General Motors Co. (NYSE:GM, TSX: GMM) and its partners produce vehicles in 30 countries, and the company has leadership positions in the world’s largest and fastest-growing automotive markets. GM’s brands include Chevrolet and Cadillac, as well as Baojun, Buick, GMC, Holden, Isuzu , Jiefang, Opel, Vauxhall and Wuling. More information on the company and its subsidiaries, including OnStar, a global leader in vehicle safety, security and information services, can be found at http://www.gm.com.
from http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Feb/0222_lauckner
-5
Feb 23rd, 2012 (7:20 pm)He did exactly what he complained about.
GM’s report of owners averaging 1,000 miles per tank means around 125 MPG.
The obsession with bragging-rights is really unfortunate, but does explain why some Volt owners are coming over to the “other side“. And that side would be those who want to spread the acceptance of plug-ins… by acknowledging the need for significant cost reduction and including GALLON & KWH data rather than just stating MPG.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2012 (7:49 pm)Interesting article – I loved it! One thing though – I have both a 2010 Prius and a 2011 Volt… I live in Phoenix where most of my drives are under 5 miles or so. With the Prius, my fuel economy is around 38.5mph because my trips are short and it takes forever for the car to cool down when it’s hot and sunny out. So, how does this change everything compared to my Volt? By looking at your graph above, it looks like they’re neck and neck.
+3
Feb 23rd, 2012 (7:51 pm)ziv,
Interesting – I think the volt 0-60 speed is quicker than a 3 or 5 series BMW from what I’ve seen online – but I think the 0-50 speed is more like a Porsche. Does anyone have these stats anywhere? It’d be fun to compare…
Feb 23rd, 2012 (8:10 pm)Not like you care, but Bob Lutz made that infamous comment Sept 16, 2007 on CBS Sunday Morning. If we allow $29,000 in 2007, an average 9.3% of annual inflation has now raised that amount to $31,701.22. If this rate of inflation holds (and it’s likely to increase), you will be able to pound us with that line up until around 2024 (twelve years).
Well, they say you should always find something to look forward to as you get older.
BTW, I Predict that Voltec (or something very like it) will be “comfortably under an inflation-adjusted $30,000″ long before 2024, as manufacturing costs for battery packs come down to meet the dollar’s declining value somewhere in the middle.
Anybody want to guess what gasoline will cost in 2024? I think it will be just a tad higher than the inflation-adjusted figure …
+6
Feb 23rd, 2012 (8:26 pm)Then I feel sad for those who only see their personal gains, and never see the big picture. Our founding Fathers did see the bigger picture when they risks their lives and their property at the moment they signed the Declaration of Independence. They gave up their personal gains to see the creation of the best nation in history. And I am proud of the Volt owners who bought their vehicle in 2010 and 2011 (when they could had bought a cheaper vehicle like the Cruze) because they also saw the bigger picture of reducing oil imports in America.
Someone here posted a very convincing comment that America should declare a war against oil imports as a new “Pearl Harbor” event. This will produce a global minded view that everyone understands and participates by buying American EVs, EREVs, and hybrids. Then we win against oil and foreign vehicle imports, and protect America again!
I see this happening when 90% of all the vehicles on our roads are American EVs and hybrids, and we begin exporting oil again since we don’t need all of it anymore. The Chevy Volt is the first step in the right direction!
Raymond
+5
Feb 23rd, 2012 (9:25 pm)The Prius C is a great little car if you are trying to replace a Kia Rio. The Volt is comparable to a BMW 3 series or an Audi A-4 not a Kia Rio.
Feb 23rd, 2012 (9:32 pm)Balance shafts might help that, GM owned Saab for quite a while. Too bad their engineers didn’t drive a few Saabs, and notice how smooth a balanced 4 cylinder is. Maybe whatever other European car the 1.4 liter is used in would sell better to boot, with a smoother engine.
-8
Feb 23rd, 2012 (10:11 pm)If Toyota was going to put their name on the Volt, they would have made it a better car. Better reports would have resulted.
-8
Feb 24th, 2012 (12:16 am)Thank me for a rebate to help a doomed car? Don’t bother. I’d far rather the money went to something useful.
I notice you didn’t give a number for Feb units sold. Feb is 3/4 gone by; surely you have a clue as to how sales are going. Or maybe you don’t have a clue.
-7
Feb 24th, 2012 (12:24 am)El Lutzbo didn’t say, “inflation adjusted” and he’d been in the auto business long enough to know when the car would hit the streets. Nor did he say, “with tax credits or money from your long-lost Uncle Dougie.”
He was wrong, pure and simple. And the FanBoyizm around here liked to subtract $7500 from ridiculously low numbers. Plenty of the Volt FanBoyz thought the car would sticker in the low to mid 30′s and then, with the tax advantage, the net price would be well under $40K. The Realists (you know them as Trolls) consistently said MSRP would be in the neighborhood of $40K.
Or course, as part of the lauded “transparent” Volt development, GM suits like to throw out all kinds of unqualified numbers the FanBoyz could latch on to and fantasize about. DBFE of 50MPG? Nope. Range of 500 miles? Nope. 50 miles EV range? Nope. CD lower than the Prius? Nope.
Volt retail sales definitely under 500 this month.
-8
Feb 24th, 2012 (12:25 am)Why are we helping the wealthy replace their Bimmers and Audis?
Not that I necessarily agree it’s a replacement for a Bimmer or Audi… I have driven the thing. It’s just a super-heavy, super-expensive compact car. In cost it resembles a Bimmer or an Audi, sure.
+6
Feb 24th, 2012 (5:42 am)That was probably the hardest part of your job, not being impressed by the gas engine staying off under hard acceleration.
-3
Feb 24th, 2012 (8:05 am)Jackson,
12 years! What part of “too little, too slowly” needs to be explained? Think about how poorly Volt would sell without any help from federal or state incentives. Sales is the point of comparing Volt to a 2010 Prius, isn’t it?
Realistically, the comparison should be to other vehicles GM offers. Cruze is the next most efficient. That product gap is a big problem. How will it be filled to prevent consumers from just shopping the competition instead?
+1
Feb 24th, 2012 (1:23 pm)john1701a,
So when you say “comfortably under $30,000″ in 2012, are you really saying “comfortably under $32,794.37?” The point is that every target is a moving target; a concept that you seem to have problems with.
Was Lutz wrong? Sure. Was he allowed to be when talking about something so unprecedented? You and Charlie say “no.” I say that it’s barely relevant today, because nearly every circumstance surrounding the car has changed, and will continue to change. You say that Lutz being wrong in 2007 is tantamount to saying that the car will never be anything but a failure. “Never” is a long, long time.
Is the Volt too expensive? Yes. I don’t think there are many of us who think otherwise. You point this out endlessly in the language of the current moment; ignoring the fact that the car is available everywhere, is being purchased, is getting good reviews from owners and national commentary, when once upon a time none of these things were true. The thing which has remained the same over that time has been your resistance, if not the details of your arguments.
The “now” is but a snapshot in a moving trend. Automobiles themselves were too expensive in the beginning, but I notice you are driving and defending one today. The automobile has transformed society for good or ill; you cannot claim it a “failure” based on it’s original status and cost.
So, you’re claiming that only the operation of inflation will make “comfortably under $30,000″ obsolete? I believe I did say that costs will also drop over time, and that we’re unlikely to wait 12 years. Perhaps less than half that.
No, the Volt wouldn’t sell as well without incentives; but incentives effect the sales of other PHEVS and EVs: including your PiP (though in that particular case to a lesser extent). Would you disallow an incentive which also benefits GM’s competitors? I wonder (not).
Unheard in all the anti-Volt rhetoric is the state of the economy. How well is the PiP selling? Not as well as it could, I dare say. Prius buyers historically don’t care about the bottom line from energy savings as much as they care about “greeness” or other ideology. I don’t think that any vehicle called “green” is less desirable now, so much as it is increasingly out of reach (and while we’re on the subject, how dare you disallow the same role of ideology from the buyers of Volts. You only allow the Volt to be compared to actual savings, when your own Prii have yet to achieve straight cost-effectiveness).
In short, you and Charlie have viewpoints that are unreasonably skewed. None of this is new. What is new is that the Volt is hitting a bump in the road, contrary to what we’ve hoped; and you are now enjoying the delight of the vulture. However, The Volt has not died. It has only begun to live. Life involves dealing with setbacks.
The two largest factors in the current downturn are outside the scope of production and engineering: the economy at large and misplaced political resistance to the Obama administration.
A bump in the road does not a dead-end make. Except in your dreams. Remember the Tortoise and the Hare. The Volt’s cause has never been lost because you’ve said so; you’ve never had the luxury of defining of reality. The story isn’t over. Just like it wasn’t “over” when the Volt was “vaporware.”
Feb 24th, 2012 (3:14 pm)That is why discussing a second lower-cost model shouldn’t continue to be ignored.
Since PiP isn’t available yet, you can’t say anything.
Feb 24th, 2012 (7:34 pm)You don’t have the luxury of time.
$4 gas dictates outcome. That’s reality. That’s now.
Sales will be lost to other vehicles.
Feb 24th, 2012 (10:31 pm)It isn’t ignored. It’s a frequent topic of discussion here. The brutal truth is that it can be discussed until it happens, but that won’t make it come sooner. I’d like a less expensive version. I understand that there are prerequisites for such a model, you don’t. You demanded the cheap version from the beginning, and it just wasn’t going to happen. That’s never how something new happens.
I thought the PiP was being sold in limited markets? Guess I was wrong about that.
What other vehicles? What other vehicles compare to it? Fiskar? Tesla? Volt is already the lowest cost vehicle in it’s class. Oh, wait. Do you mean to Prius? No, you couldn’t possibly mean that …
$4 gas is reality now. It won’t be for long. There is already talk of $5 gas nationwise by this summer. Once again, you are confining reality to a static “now” which ignores change. You can know a particle’s speed or it’s location, but not both at the same time; says quantum physics. I think that “reality,” in this context, shares a little something with this principle.
Feb 25th, 2012 (2:39 am)That answer to that should be obvious: NOT VOLT
Take a look at GM’s sales last month for a dose of reality:
16,009 Impala
15,049 Cruze
14,676 Malibu
5,712 Sonic
That puts the 603 sales of Volt in a clear “lost opportunity” category.
Mar 2nd, 2012 (5:41 pm)I drive a 2004 Prius and I love the car. I used to religiously figure out my mpg but over the last few years I just occasionally figure it out but still average about 45 mpg and after almost 8 years I’ve got 102k on it and I still love to drive it. Years ago by average was closer to 48 mpg.
But today I test drove the Volt and I think my next care will be a Volt.
That said, I’d like to ask a question and make a comment on the subsidies. Right now, the US taxpayers subsidize the oil industry to the tune of $5 billion a year in direct subsidies, and in tax loopholes I’ve read another 50 billion dollars. Has anyone figured out what this means in terms of the price of a gallon of gas? And shouldn’t that subsidy count when you make comparisons between the subsidies that are made for these 2 technologies?
People often complain about the subsidies for electric vehicles but you never hear about the comparable subsidies that have been going on of dozens of years for the internal combustion engine businesses.