News from the just-getting-started world of extended-range electric vehicles has been a mix of positive reports as well as some stories for which we’re still awaiting full resolution.
Both General Motors and Fisker share in common a tenacious ability to keep receiving awards, and they also have both had to contend with minor technical concerns.
Aside from this, we’ll mention a couple more briefed stories, including one about KSPG, a company that has shown a compact range-extending engine at the Detroit Auto Show that can be added to a battery electric vehicle.
KSPG
KSPG Automotive (formerly Kolbenschmidt Pierburg) is a German automotive supplier, and a subsidiary of Rheinmetall AG.
It and FEV have co-developed a 30-kw range extender for battery-electric vehicles. The 800cc, four-stroke V-Twin is the size of a motorcycle engine, weighs about 137 pounds, and is combined with two 15-kw generators.
The range extender is designed to drop into a space around the size of a spare tire well, or anywhere else and thus upgrade a BEV into a serial hybrid.
According to AutoblogGreen, KSPG Automotive’s Gerd Kleinert said this is a solution for our time.
“We are convinced that this is a kind of bridge technology from the current combustion engine to electric drive,” he said. “The biggest point in electric cars is still the battery. If someone offers a battery that is the size of a 50-liter [13.2-gallon] gas tank with the same energy content with the same weight that you can recharge it in three minutes, everyone would drive electric.”
Of course unless a battery tech breakthrough happens, EVs with this energy density aren’t available yet.
“That’s the reason we think there is a need for this bridge technology because it guarantees you will get home,” Kleinert said, “even if you run out of electricity. You only need a small battery, which drives the cost down.”
Kleinert said that in recent months KSPG has talked to EV makers to design-in its range extender. To offset the cost of doing this, talk is of specifying a smaller battery pack than would otherwise be called for.
KSPG reportedly began working on the range extender about a year ago, first showed it at Frankfurt, and the company said it is capable of producing 10,000 units per year.
It intends to assemble a working prototype vehicle this summer and said it knows MSRP will be a sensitive issue, and without specifying estimates, said the price will be “acceptable.”
For a more comprehensive review of this range extender concept, check out GreenCarCongress.
Fisker
Just days after Fisker’s recall of 239 six-figure Karmas to fix a loose hose clamp, Fisker is issuing another minor recall and again halting sales until it handles the new bug.
This one is a potential software fault that has produced symptoms including random check-engine lights coming on, and inoperative infotainment systems.
Shoppers passing Harrods department store in Knightsbridge, London can eye the Fisker Karma as they arrive for the Winter Sale. The EVer will take pride of place in the prominent Brompton Road window display until February 4.
Fisker has taken steps to say the issues are nothing to be concerned about, and to really let everyone know it cares about its customers, Henrik Fisker committed to calling Karma owners with a personal apology.
And in other wholly positive news, Fisker has been collecting some awards – as the photo at world-famous Harrods shows – and Fisker issued a press release to elaborate.
“In recent weeks, this has included Top Gear’s Luxury Car of the Year, Automobile’s Design of the Year Award, listing in TIME Magazine’s Top 50 Innovations of 2012, a Global Green Design Award, and noted Swiss magazine Schweizer Illustrierte named the Karma their Most Stylish Car of 2012,” Fisker Automotive said.
Henrik Fisker said he is “happy, humbled and very proud,” and added “We have always had a great deal of faith in the appeal of the cars we create, but to have that recognized by critics so early on in the Karma’s lifespan is really fantastic.”
Volt
General Motors CEO Dan Akerson will make his first appearance on Capitol Hill since September 2010, this time to answer a U.S. House panel next week about battery issues.
“Dan has agreed to testify at the hearing, and he looks forward to doing it,” GM spokesman Greg Martin told The Detroit News.
As GM-Volt readers are aware, the inquiry is about whether safety regulators properly handled reported Volt fire risks.
We’ll note also that this entire process will be viewed by some in the know as nothing more than absurd political theater.
Unfortunately in this election year, there are political opponents who’d like to make certain points, and the Volt has been caught in the middle.
Many observers have noted this whole issue has been overblown, GM has been credited with handling it well so far, but it also has a preemptive ad campaign standing by, if winds of perception fan further flames against it.
“I have a contingency plan. It’s ready to go” said GM’s marketing head Joel Ewanick to USA Today.
The ads are described as “honest and straightforward” and would direct people to a Web site or other technical resource to explain the issues.
The dilemma for GM is timing. It does not want to alarm people about concerns, but only wants to respond if necessary.
Meanwhile, GM is not just busy in Washington, but also in Shanghai.
Stories were re-circulating recently by mainstream sources like USA Today and conservative political bloggers too, that GM signed a deal to co-develop an EV with its joint venture partner SAIC in the Peoples’ Republic.
Reports cited quotes made a few months ago by GM Vice Chairman Steve Girsky hinting the Volt could be made in China one day.
“If we localize, eventually it won’t have a tariff and it will get the subsidy,” he said. “We have made no decision on if, when or where we build Volt in the future.”
Girsky also reiterated assertions that neither SAIC nor the Chinese government have demanded Volt technology.
The Volt at its launch at Auto Guangzhou 2011. From left to right: Ye Yongming, President of Shanghai GM; Chen Hong, President of SAIC Motor; Kevin Wale, President and Managing Director of the GM China Group; and Joseph Liu, Executive Vice President of Shanghai GM).
At the same time, observers note future EVs would draw on lessons and technology learned from the Volt, Spark EV, and other GM research.
For now the $75,500 Chinese Chevrolet must try to appeal having a 25-percent tariff slapped on it, and without qualifying for incentives domestic EVs can get that add up to as much as $19,000.
U.S. lawmakers have said China’s tactics constitute a “shaking down” and violate World Trade Organization rules. It’s also been said that China has a major technology deficit. It is no leader in EVs or hybrids but is alleged to be manipulating GM and others by holding out its massive potential for growth.
We’ve heard these things before, but Girsky’s comment allowing that GM could “localize” Volt production so it could then “get the subsidy” indicates the idea is definitely not off the table.
To further qualify the statement, yesterday GM spokesman Rob Peterson said some have taken Girsky’s comments out of context, and for balance, he said GM would need to see a strong demand for the Volt before building in China.
“We build where we sell,” Peterson said. “If there’s a tremendous amount of market acceptance, yeah we could consider having production capacity there.”
But again, there are no plans, and as we know the Volt is price handicapped, so will a catch-22 keep the Volt away from Chinese production indefinitely?
While this and other Volt issues are still playing out, on the unequivocally good news front, there’s little doubt that the Volt has won a fair number of awards, and is still doing so.
In addition to all the awards it collected last year, the Volt was named “Most Earth Friendly” at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit this month.
Also favorable for the Volt, Peterson observed, is next month California market Volts equipped with a low-emissions package will begin shipping to dealers there.
For the past 3-4 months, GM has been reducing allocations to the Golden State because its Chevrolet dealers in cases are reportedly reducing prices already to clear the way for the pending HOV-lane accessible Volts.
These Volts will also entitle Californians to apply for a $1,500 rebate as CorvetteGuy reported last month, and should help further increase their competitiveness against hybrids that are already HOV legal.
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+7
Jan 20th, 2012 (6:42 am)Today’s multifaceted topic covers several very interesting areas. I’ll confine my comments to the first, and to me the most exciting one, the KSPG compact range extender. It immediately reminds me of the Lotus range extender, a similar concept shown below and introduced well over a year ago. The KSPG range extender is 30KW, very comparable to the Lotus unit at 35 KW. Both units are extremely compact and lightweight. Notably, Lotus exhibited a range-extended EV at Geneva in Feb 2010 that they claimed will do 0-60mph <4 seconds using their tiny range extender. Added details on the Lotus design and the EV they installed it in can be found at: http://gglotus.org/blog/tag/range-extender-engine/ , so I won’t elaborate further on either the Lotus or KSPG designs here. The major point I want to make is below the photo…
Li-Ion batteries are presently impractical above about 24KW because of excessive time to recharge and very high cost (notwithstanding Tesla’s use of large batteries in high-end vehicles). Volt got it right —and I’m convinced that the combination of a modest-sized battery with a small range extender can be made very competitive!
Jan 20th, 2012 (7:24 am)As I have said before, i do not think the Volt will sell for $79k in China.
It’s looking like the volt will be about $60,000 in Oz with another $6,000 after dealer on-road related costs and mark-ups. we will also have no subsidies, despite having a carbon tax which will generate substantial income. one would think some of that could go to supporting electric cars…
Despite the huge talk up GM gave the Volt when announcing it will be sold in Oz, I’m not surprised GM are only talking about importing 100 of them, maxing at 500 if there is demand. Really, what is the point? Make them here, costs will be substantially reduced, below what it costs to make in the US, and people will buy them. GM will also look like a serious company with regards to electrics. While they are at it, GM should also be lobbying our government to provide a subsidy.
+5
Jan 20th, 2012 (7:32 am)” “We are convinced that this is a kind of bridge technology from the current combustion engine to electric drive,” he said. “The biggest point in electric cars is still the battery. If someone offers a battery that is the size of a 50-liter [13.2-gallon] gas tank with the same energy content with the same weight that you can recharge it in three minutes, everyone would drive electric.”
Of course unless a battery tech breakthrough happens, EVs with this energy density aren’t available yet.”
Carefull. The accuracy shelf life for this statement about energy density is 6-8 months when the Model S starts shipping. Energy density isn’t the issue anymore. I son’t think 3 minute refills of a 300+ mile range vehicle are an absolute necessity either. The high power DC charging that delivers 200 miles of range under 30 minutes will be available too and that will suffice for most people since they rarely if ever drive more than 300 miles in a day. The real issue is price and availability of fast chargers to lessor extent. The cost of a 300+ mile battery will not be acceptable for most car buyers anytime soon, if ever. Range extenders or swapping capability will be needed for EVs to satisfy the long range demands. It’s also likely that many people will come to realize that their long range needs are really not that great and there are many ways to address them that do not exclude shorter range EVs (plane, bus, train, rental car, second vehicle, etc, etc).
+15
Jan 20th, 2012 (7:44 am)GM needs to get through these really stupid show trial hearings, and then ramp up the advertising of the technological marvel they have created – The Chevy Volt!
Gasoline prices have started to go up locally. Regular is at $3.30/gal and premium is at $3.55/gal. When, not if, the prices go over $4.00/gal and stay there, the interest, leading to sales of the Volt, and all other BEV’s will take off. Once that happens, the manufacturers will introduce more models to choose from, which leads to more sales. Economies of scale lead to reduced prices.
IMHO, any current owner is way ahead of the curve. And I am proud to be a current owner of a 2012 Chevy Volt!
C-5277
+5
Jan 20th, 2012 (8:42 am)You think they would send more being that Australia has the same population as the state of Texas, or the state of New York. Seems like out of 20+ million people, they could easily sell more than 500 even at that price.
+1
Jan 20th, 2012 (8:44 am)Amen Jim I!
+1
Jan 20th, 2012 (9:00 am)4 degrees this morning in Michigan. How was everyone’s EV range?
Jan 20th, 2012 (9:08 am)kdawg,
I completely agree.
In my original post I was going to point out the 20 million+ population market size you have ceased on. But at 66k per car, that market of actual consumers is substantially reduced. That said, I suspect there are tens of thousands of people in Oz who would like to buy this car already, and at $40k they probably would. I am one of many who would like one, but have to consider the commercial reality of such a purchase. I can afford one, but cannot justify it when discussing such a purchase with my partner.
Jan 20th, 2012 (9:11 am)I think some enterprising individual should come up with a way to externally hook a small portable range extender to a BEV. then tow truck drivers wouldn’t need to stand on the side of the road trying to charge a Leaf, they could just hook up the portable unit to get the stranded motorist home/ to a convenient plug (customer would give a healthy deposit and rent the unit until returned).
+1
Jan 20th, 2012 (9:28 am)I’ve noticed something interesting the past two days… Low 20′s, and last week in similar temperatures (and all last year), my car usually runs twice due to temperature on my 7 mile trip to work… Once at the beginning of the trip, and once in the middle of the trip.
However, the last two days, it’s only run once, increasing my MPG for these small commuting trips substantially. It seems like a real difference in operation since that second time the engine runs is usually in the middle of the trip, and not towards the end, where it could be argued that running once versus twice is just some typical variability.
Makes me wonder if there was some subtle update pushed out recently to try and address the lower MPG observed in these colder scenarios.
join thE REVolution
+2
Jan 20th, 2012 (9:36 am)OK. I have modified my pitch for MPV.
MPV
use 90% of battery
eliminate water cooling
put batteries in floor
USE DOWNSIZED Range Extender such as this KSPG unit.
Equals
lower wt
lower cost
better mi/kwh (in EV mode)
more interior room
more utilitarian vehicle
Note however that this configuration will have worse MPG (gas) in extended range mode. It also will not climb steep grades at 6000′ altitude like the Volt (GM selected 50 KW RE for a reason and power split for a reason)
But it would definitely get the cost down nicely.
+5
Jan 20th, 2012 (9:44 am)Ohh – that 800cc unit up top is nice. Two 15KW generators would let you drive in CS-mode on a flat highway for days at 50mpg or higher.
The smaller unit would also work with smaller cars (Solstice- or Miata-sized).
+5
Jan 20th, 2012 (9:52 am)My range was 25. The ICE came on a couple of times “due to temperature”, but did not come on once I was seriously enroute. Had to stop at the gas station – to buy gas for the snowblower.
-4
Jan 20th, 2012 (10:06 am)Mount that engine on a trailer. New paradigm: rent a range extender when you need it.
Jan 20th, 2012 (10:15 am)Like pdt says:
There are 4 things that are most important when designing an EV:
1)cost
2)cost
3)cost
4) energy density
+1
Jan 20th, 2012 (10:19 am)I have always thought the Lotus RE was pretty good.
but one must admit that this KSPG unit is much more thought out with lots of attention to detail and customizing to conform to a range extender’s mission.
+4
Jan 20th, 2012 (10:25 am)These already exist
+6
Jan 20th, 2012 (10:34 am)I have 3 things I require:
1) Performance/Function (define those how you will)
2) Reasonable Cost (define that how you will)
3) …. umm what’s the third thing.. hold on.
EPA?
Oh yeah EPA.. I think?
(Remember to vote for Herman Cain in South Carolina on Saturday, LOL)
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/01/the-cain-train-collides-with-colberts-super-pac-satire/
Jan 20th, 2012 (10:49 am)Kdawg’s quote is really attributable to pdt not me.
Jan 20th, 2012 (10:52 am)If I lived in a mostly cold climate; I would strongly consider buying a plug-in HSD configuration vehicle; to get the best of both techs blended together. However, since I don’t, I would prefer a simple all-electric drive BEV with 150 mile range or something like the BMW I3 or I3 with the RE. I also like the 1 wheel air cooled ER trailer. Attaching the trailer to your BEV would be as easy as 2 plugs and 2 locking hinges to your bumper. Everyone has different needs; so there are multiple solutions to consider. I like simple, reliable and relatively affordable for the masses.
+3
Jan 20th, 2012 (10:55 am)And if you missed it – the Carpool lane picture of the Volt does have a 2nd passenger
+1
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:02 am)According to Fisker and Musk:
1) Sexy
2) Speed
3) More Sexy
4) Hype
With that set of rules, they’ll sell thousands.
Add 5) Utility and cost-containment
and they’ll sell millions.
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:06 am)Charlie H: Mount that engine on a trailer. New paradigm: rent a range extender when you need it.
===========================================================
These already exist
===========================================================
All good comments, guys …EXCEPT the KSPG range extender is designed “to drop into a space around the size of a spare tire well, or anywhere else & thus upgrade a BEV to a serial hybrid”. At 137 Lbs, why not permanently install it so you never have to anticipate needing it in advance? For example, put it in the trunk of a LEAF and when your battery’s low, switch it ON from the driver’s dashboard without having to stop —that’s how I think both Lotus & KSPG intend these to be used.*
/*As well, of course, by EV manufacturers to offer customers an EREV option, as with BMW’s new i3
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:08 am)Koz,
No. I think a 30 minute recharge after 200 miles is a big step back-wards from what we’re used to with conventional cars. The infrastructurere isn’t here either. It’s only a potential.
+4
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:17 am)With the ideas put forth above by all those in this forum I really think GM could come up with a lower cost, more utilitarian vehicle for the masses. ….the low cost MPV.
However, this would be considered as an ADDITION to the Volt.
I would also suggest possibly morphing the Volt into a Cadillac branded vehicle (like ELR) for the more affluent customer. This would be advantageous to all current Volt owners as they would see the value of their Volt increase.
+1
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:20 am)If I owned a Leaf, and one of these range extenders, i would still want it removable. So if I didnt want to haul a trailer, and put it in my trunk, i would set it up so I could make a few disconnects and pull it out. If I had enough trunk space, and could tie it into the controls of the car, and have an easily fillable gas tank that would not smell, and it was quiet, then i would have it installed permanently. But at that point, I’d just buy a Volt.
+3
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:34 am)Bonaire,
How did you get its seatbelt on?
Raymond
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:41 am)The two range extenders are good ideas for BEV owners who need them, but do they run on CNG or on regular gasoline? I have to ask because if they use gasoline, then the oil imports will not reduce much. They must run on domestic fuels, such as CNG or even coal gas. Another option would be on biodiesel, using recycled cooking oils or other vegetable fuels. Their exhausts would smell better.
Last would be methane gas from decomposing compost. That will be a real stinker!
Raymond
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:43 am)#13
LOL +!
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:46 am)#22
Heavy on the hype, LOL. +1
+1
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:47 am)If you pay for my round trip to South Carolina, I will vote for Cain. ; – )
Raymond
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:53 am)nasaman,
I think it really depends on a person’s daily range needs including opportunity charging. I don’t know if that weight and space requirement includes the gas tank or not but some of us would like that space for a spare tire or luggage or prefer that the ICE noise be more separated from the passengers. My preference would be to satisfy my normal daily range needs with a simple BEV and rent or own a trailer for longer commutes. However, I would definitely still consider a built-in version of a RE.
+3
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:55 am)#14
We went over this about 100 times a couple of years ago. It takes a BIG portable generator to run a car, not some little 4000w Honda thing. And it would have to be CARB/EPA certified to be sold commercially, so it’s really not that easy to do. And it wouldn’t be cheap.
All of this just makes me glad I have a Volt, which is a carefully engineered and fully integrated car from a manufacturer with really serious engineering depth. Bonaire had it right about the Fisker and the Tesla at #22 IMHO. And these add on power packs are doomed to failure, again IMHO. I don’t think that any established car company is going to graft one of these things on to their existing car. There’s a reason why the Lotus offering never got any traction.
+2
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:58 am)#18
I dunno, after last nights antics Herman is starting to look good. At least he didn’t try to blame his extramarital adventures on John King, LMAO. +1
+4
Jan 20th, 2012 (12:13 pm)I seldom disagree with you, Raymond, but you’re mistaken about this. Unless the BEV the range extender is used with has a fully-charged EV range <40 miles, the amount of gasoline used should be about the same as needed for a Volt. If the BEV has a range of 70-80 miles like a Leaf, and the owner fully recharges its battery at night, the gas used would be even less than that used by a Volt.
In either case, adding a range extender can dramatically reduce gasoline usage, just as with a Volt.
+11
Jan 20th, 2012 (12:22 pm)Random other ‘EREV Roundup’ news:
A123 put out a note today (counteracting the one they put out in November saying Fisker’s battery orders had slowed,) by saying demand had unexpectedly increased, and earlier, beginning in Q1.
In other words, Henrik called A123 and actually placed a big order, and they want it as soons as A123 can ship. A123 said production will ramp up ‘shortly’.
Sidenote: Its amusing that a good bulk of the reliable/breaking news seems to originate with the suppliers, and not from the automakers themselves (or their PR departments)
-4
Jan 20th, 2012 (12:26 pm)If you put it in the BEV, you must also make arrangements to cool it, supply it with air and fuel, carry away the exhaust and provide some amount of sound isolation.
With the trailer solution, your BEV is as small and light as possible and your range-extender is as self-contained as it can be.
kdawg,
Yeah! I noticed that some years ago. I’ve also seen pics of one pulled behind a Tau-Zero. 500cc Kawasaki engine, as I recall. That has a 9-gallon tank and the motor is water-cooled.
There might also be some additional efficiencies to the bolt-on or hook-on range-extender concept. Doea a generator have better efficiency when generating than a motor-generator does when generating? And, conversely, is a motor more efficient than a motor-generator when in “motivator” mode?
I don’t have any EE’s handy to ask.
-2
Jan 20th, 2012 (12:27 pm)statik,
Should be good for you, unless you’ve liquidated the position.
+5
Jan 20th, 2012 (12:36 pm)For now the $75,500 Chinese Chevrolet must try to appeal having a 25-percent tariff slapped on it…
For now the $75,500 Chinese Chevrolet must try to appeal having a 25-percent tariff slapped on it…
For now the $75,500 Chinese Chevrolet must try to appeal having a 25-percent tariff slapped on it..
Worth repeating!!!!!
This is something you will never see on ABC….CBS .. or NBC….
Good Job Jeff!!
+2
Jan 20th, 2012 (12:39 pm)Nope, haven’t liquidated. Finally in the black and making money…however, the market is a fickle thing, so that could change in a hurry, (=
/riding it out, $10 or bust, lol.
Jan 20th, 2012 (12:43 pm)#36
I’d make Henrik show me the cash first, LOL.
Jan 20th, 2012 (1:09 pm)I have to consider too that maybe they have other things going on and need to build a battery plant in Europe somewhere closer to their customer to avoid inbound VAT or tariffs there.
Jan 20th, 2012 (1:13 pm)He’d gladly show you the cash. But I don’t think you’ll get him to admit if it’s destined for the creditors that are in line before you.
+3
Jan 20th, 2012 (1:14 pm)If I could sell 1 VOLT each month at $75,000 I would be shopping for a bigger home in a nicer neighborhood.
Jan 20th, 2012 (2:02 pm)#43
Yeah, maybe the operative word should have been “give”, LOL. So what, you think he has a big wad of the DOE loan money stashed in his drawer to flash at the suppliers/suckers and lure them in? Wouldn’t surprise me one bit.
+5
Jan 20th, 2012 (4:55 pm)Two 15-Kw generators doesn’t seem big enough to do everything Volt can do (53Kw).
And, all this (continued) talk about trailers just seems backward to me. Pulling a trailer is less aero and more road drag (and way more geeky than driving an EV in the first place).
Just rent a dang Caddy for your vacation. Live a little. Sheesh.
Jan 20th, 2012 (5:00 pm)@35k pure profit, I’m sure your manager would give a huge commission
Ya probably wouldn’t need to sell more than 6 a year and take the other half of the year off!
+3
Jan 20th, 2012 (5:09 pm)#46
Yup. +1
+1
Jan 20th, 2012 (5:43 pm)Exactly right. +1
+2
Jan 20th, 2012 (5:47 pm)What I said was after 300+ miles of your initial range, charging 200 miles on the road. It’s a step backwards in some (probably most) people’s minds but not in the reality of their life or judged by total time. How often do drivers need more than 300 miles in a day? Likely less than 20% need it more than 5 times a year. Spending a little time after long driving sessions to charge while you stretch, eat, or sight see is not better and for most probably less time consuming than traveling to, gassing, traveling from a gas station on a regular basis. For the minority that travels greater than 300 miles/day often, a better solution will be needed. 10 steps forward and one back is still nine steps forward.
Yes, the infrastructure isn’t there now (why would it be?) and that is why I said it was an issue, albeit lessor to price.
+2
Jan 20th, 2012 (6:12 pm)The Volt is 3700lbs and uses only 3.5KW MM buffer. A 3200lb vehicle capable of a 6KW MM buffer and this power source would be a lot closer in capability to the Volt. The only shortfall would be long highway rides and 80+ mph. Not that I think this is a better solution than the Volt’s Voltec, it just seems a viable power source by the numbers.
If a genset trailer is meant to suppliment a BEV for only once in a while longe trips, is the poorer aero a larger hit than carrying the genset around all the time? A lot of people put rooftop luggage carriers or attach storage trailers for road trips as it is now. Nobody has been excommunicated for doing that. Additionally, the genset trailer could be serving a very valuable and useful purpose as the whole house emergency generator 99% of the time, when it isn’t required for long trips.
Jan 20th, 2012 (6:19 pm)OT:
Rollout of the 2013 Malibu.
Global Launch of 2013 Chevrolet Malibu Continues
http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Jan/0119_malibutransport
Some interesting tidbits from the article:
* The heart of the Malibu Eco is its segment-exclusive, fuel-saving eAssist™ technology, which provides GM-estimated 25 mpg city and 37 mpg highway fuel economy.
* The Malibu is also scheduled to be built at GM’s Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant later this summer.
*The new Malibu Eco is priced less than a full hybrid vehicle with a suggested retail price of $25,995, including a $760 destination charge.
*The new Malibu is already on sale in South Korea and will arrive in dealerships in China by the end of the first quarter.
Jan 20th, 2012 (6:42 pm)OT- Feb. 16th our team does the ride & drive in the 2013 Malibu. I heard that the ‘mild-hybrid’ version will be there also.
+2
Jan 20th, 2012 (7:12 pm)Long trip, car rental agency, minivan, solved.
A lot of folks who live in center cities (NYC, Philly, San Fran) do rent cars for trips and even live without a car for the most part. Seems almost like a “no brainer”. Gas isn’t going to go away – but the point is, 300-mile BEVs and fast-charging simply are not required for EVs to be widespread.
+3
Jan 20th, 2012 (7:26 pm)The more I look at this “engineered package” the more I like it.
The Germans are very good w/ Gearboxes….and somehow it makes a smaller package to put in 2 GENERATORS instead of 1.
+1
Jan 20th, 2012 (7:39 pm)#52
A VERY tough sell in the face of the Prius IMHO. I hope I’m wrong. Please let us know how it goes.
+1
Jan 20th, 2012 (7:49 pm)but I would suppose we need an EE to explain that one!!
Jan 20th, 2012 (7:59 pm)That’s what I’m talkin’ ’bout.
-8
Jan 20th, 2012 (9:42 pm)Sometimes, I swear, the people at GM must be on drugs.
It IS true that the technology in the Malibu IS segment exclusive. This is because nobody else in that segment sees any value in offering a weak hybrid. This car gets SLIGHTLY better fuel economy than a standard Camry for a lot more money.
The Malibu hybrid is NOT priced less than a full hybrid; the Prius is a full hybrid and it’s less than $24K.
The Malibu hybrid IS less – by a mere $500 – than the Hyundai Sonata hybrid and the Camry hybrid but they both offer fuel economy in the 40′s.
For people who want a hybrid – or just really good fuel economy – the Malibu Hybrid is not an attractive option. It is going to sell very poorly.
-8
Jan 20th, 2012 (9:44 pm)But the ones that actually do go to the trouble of owning cars do not then rent cars for trips.
+4
Jan 20th, 2012 (10:17 pm)With my Volt, the ICE immediately goes on when temp is below say 25degrees F.
Most days, my commute is about 3 miles each way. So… why not let me run the vehicle on electric only? I am not worried about range, the ICE runs to get the battery temp up….
Yes, the car is garaged in the low 40s overnight. Also, fully charged in the morning.
Can I program the car to draw electric from the grid while plugged in and per-heat the battery without burning gasoline?
Seems strange to pull into garage with ICE running with a 25 mile range.
+3
Jan 20th, 2012 (11:32 pm)It will be intersting how it turns out because the Malibu was the #2 selling car for GM last year and the ECO is only 2K more in price. So for 2K you get a 12% increase in MPG. That may sell it. For people comparing mid-sized sedans, and settle on the Malibu, then see they can get 12% better mpg for $2k upfront, they may go for it.
-9
Jan 21st, 2012 (12:21 am)Where did you get $2K?
It’s $3300 more than last year’s Malibu and it’s $3300 more than this year’s Camry.
The fuel economy may be 12% better than last year’s Malibu but they’re not selling it against last year’s Malibu, they have to sell it against this year’s Camry, which it only beats by 6% and that’s only on the highway.
+2
Jan 21st, 2012 (12:32 am)Hopefully GM & NHTSA will go into that hearing and turn this around on Issa… I hope they have a few questions for him on his “Political Motives,” also.
+11
Jan 21st, 2012 (9:19 am)Notes I’ve made all week for the site. (But had been too backlogged with work due to the Monday holiday to post).
The mild hybrid design saves *****LOTS**** of wear and tear on the drive train, because the hardest work of all, is to get the vehicle going from a stop. An idea to prove such a confidence level would be to consider an offer for a one hundred and twenty thousand mile extended warranty on the drive train.
Don C. posted an interesting point on the sixteenth, regarding IBM’s lithium air battery, which he mentioned gains weight during discharge. I don’t think that at the molecular level, this would be highly significant. What are the molecular weight values per kilowatt per pound of such a chemistry?
(But in any case, once any advanced battery specs are standardized, I think you can comfortably consider smaller and smaller (totally quiet) range extending generators that are scheduled at a steady state operation, as the public becomes more and more educated regarding what power is needed for each of their specific transportation needs.) Reliability, longevity, and economic feasibility are all front and center at all the OEM’s for all this, of course.)
Notes for promotion of Volt:
Many, many, many shop owners would dearly love to have a ride in a Volt. They simply think they do not have time from their harried and stressed schedules to be able to do so. They must perform work as administrators, yet after all these years, it will take a ride in a Volt for them to begin to understand that the first forty miles each day are on electricity, then the range extender takes the car another four hundred or so miles any day they might need more than the first 40 electric miles beyond each overnight charge. The one and only ride in it sets up the place in the brain for them to begin to learn. (Then ultimately promote Voltec when an occasional customer needs to buy a new luxury car or future CUV). (This “beginning place to learn” is called a “locus” in Learning Psychology).
I can not begin to insist enough and to stress enough that getting auto repair shop owners to have rides in Volts is a mandatory imperative for promotion!!!!!!!*************************
So, still yet, here is another idea for GM to consider.
Have an incentive for Volt owners to press the OnStar button (to introduce passengers to a nice GM professional) and get a warranty-miles credit (times the new passengers) for giving one or two or three passengers a ride in their Volt, at lunch, for a dinner drive out, for a carpool ride into work, to Sunday services, to the ball park, etc, and give the Volt owner an extended warranty distance credit for each mile times the number of passengers. This is the best idea for promotion, and, GM ought to implement this immediately!!!!!!!!****************************
Jan 21st, 2012 (11:31 am)nasaman,
So KSPG has recently shown their compact generator and Lotus has show a similar size one and an entire car back in 2010.
+2
Jan 21st, 2012 (11:46 am)koz,
Look at the infrastructure needed. Let’s say there are as many charging stations as gas pumps right now. Pull into a gas station with two cars in line ahead of you and it still doesn’t take a half hour to fill up. Two car ahead of you at the charging station and there’s an hour and a half. So you need many more charging stations. Suggests to me that extended range consuming some sort of fuel is going to be more practical for some time yet.
+3
Jan 21st, 2012 (12:35 pm)MSRP for the 2013 base isn’t listed yet. The the 2013 hybrid model is $3125 more than the 2012 base model, but I came up w/a $2k number assuming the base model price will go up due to all of the changes, and also to get a comparable trim level as/the hybrid.
My post was not about competing w/another car, but competing against the non-hybrid version. Like I said, it was the #2 car for GM last year. Now they are going to sell them in 100 countries and 6 continents. I’m guessing just a few people will buy them. Once they have settled on a Malibu, spending a little more for the hybrid will be a no-brainer for people buying $8 gas. Also, it wont be like 2010 where you had V6 engines cannibalizing sales, since a V6 option won’t be offered in the 2013. (but there will be a turbo)
Again, it will be interesting, and I hope it does well (hybrid or no hybrid). More sales helps our exports, and the domestic manufacturing, especially in KC, Kansas. Bookmark your calendar and we can review the #’s in March of 2013.
+1
Jan 21st, 2012 (1:55 pm)Slightly OT: for those of you that rarely visit FoxNews, here’s a POSITIVE article on
“Prepping your home for an electric car”
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/01/21/prepping-your-home-for-electric-car/
Notice the illustration picture is James Brazell with his Volt!
Jan 21st, 2012 (2:03 pm)Yes… and I’d like to know how $75,000 is only a 25% tariff?
+11
Jan 21st, 2012 (2:03 pm)Charlie H,
People’s motivation to buy have nothing at all to do with your points in your post.
You are being ridiculous again with your excessive and miniscule specificity.
+2
Jan 21st, 2012 (2:10 pm)I have yet to see anyone pay $24K for a Prius… a cooworker just paid $28… and no where near as nice a ride as the Malibu… no where near the performance.. looks or comfort.
And the Malibu has many more discounts available… I personally have $3,500 in GM card money alone… then you add the dealer discount of at least $3K and any other incentives… yes indeed I feel I can get a Malibu for a lot less than the Prius and get a much better car.
+3
Jan 21st, 2012 (2:42 pm)+6
Jan 21st, 2012 (2:53 pm)kdawg,
Yea, they exist. But WHO exactly is monitoring and/or regulating the safety standards and tailpipe emssions of these generator trailers?? NOBODY! These are generators designed for STATIONARY applications (which have their own, very lax, regulation)
Until such time these generator trailers are under the same scrutiny as a modern road-worthy vehicle they shouln’t be permitted on our highways.
WOT
Jan 21st, 2012 (2:56 pm)kdawg,
Not really. FoxCarReports (found under Leisure) regularly gives the Volt good marks. It’s FoxBusiness that is fixating on the negative. Notice the referenced article is positive on EVs in general.
BTW, is that Hell, MI?
Jan 21st, 2012 (3:21 pm)kdawg,
>
xiaowei1: Despite the huge talk up GM gave the Volt when announcing it will be sold in Oz, I’m not surprised GM are only talking about importing 100 of them, maxing at 500 if there is demand.
You think they would send more being that Australia has the same population as the state of Texas, or the state of New York. Seems like out of 20+ million people, they could easily sell more than 500 even at that price.
>
They possibly could if the government here took off their penalties for vehicles built outside of Australia. Mind you if more auto manufacturing leaves Australian shores as is what is looking like then maybe there won’t be a market to protect anymore.
The other fact is that from my reading there is a lot of hatred to anything that doesn’t have an ICE engine downunder. They don’t get the fact that they will save money and the money they do spend will be on domestically produced electricity, plus all the other age old arguments that go around with electric vehicles which have been disproven. On top of that there is still the group that claim Hydrogen is the future not electricity.
If GM is unable to fight the Aussie Fed Gov’t then they could look at dropping the price of the Volt which will then drop the price locally(Aus) as well and unfortunately it sounds as though an individual is unable to privately import an overseas vehicle into Australia, love protectionism sometimes…not.
-8
Jan 21st, 2012 (3:35 pm)You’re suggesting that the base ‘Bu will be $1300 more than the Camry. That’s a world of not good for GM.
This car doesn’t compete against other models of itself, it competes against all the other cars on the market. I have no objection to GM selling a lot of cars but I don’t think they’re going to do it without a car that competes on fuel economy and price. It’s roughly the same price-performance as BAS-I and that did poorly against a weaker field.
Jan 21st, 2012 (4:05 pm)Yes, and I’ve been there. They have a little bar that sells T-shirts/etc that say I’ve been to Hell and so on. I’ve also been to Paradise MI. It’s up in the U.P. That is what we call the upper peninsula (and no we don’t use L.P.) Now we just need a Purgatory MI (maybe that’s the rest of the state).
+1
Jan 21st, 2012 (4:16 pm)I think they’ll do just fine w/the Malibu. Below is last year’s America sales #’s as of Dec 2nd. I know you don’t like the Malibu, but apparently many others do. When it goes global, we’ll see how the rest of the world likes it. If its anything like the Cruze, I’m not worried.
Year-to-Date:
1 Toyota Camry – 275,004
2 Nissan Altima – 243,005
3 Ford Fusion – 226,445
4 Honda Accord – 217,958
5 Hyundai Sonata – 208,621
6 Chevrolet Malibu – 191,774
7 Chrysler 200 – 77,820
8 Kia Optima – 73,886
9 Dodge Avenger – 57,807
10 Volkswagen Passat – 15,895
+1
Jan 21st, 2012 (4:37 pm)Because most plug-in car charging will be done at home for the foreseeable future, the biggest limitation on EV daily driving is the capacity of the typical residential electrical service. Battery size and cost are important, but it’s the circuit used to fill the electricity tank that dictates the practical size of that tank and thus the range and overall utility of the car. This is why the range-extender is an important bridge to full vehicle electrification.
The most common circuit found in today’s residences is the ubiquitous 110v 15a circuit. If the car is charged overnight (8 hours), the amount of juice that can be put in the battery for the day’s activities is 10.5kWh. This gives you a useful range of 35 to 45 miles, enough for 80% of most peoples daily commute, but impossible for travel of any significant distance. If you are stuck with a 110v 15a outlet, there is no point making the car’s battery any bigger to add range because of the time it takes to charge. But add a range-extender, and you then have a practical, general purpose, (mostly) Electric Vehicle. Enter the Volt and Karma.
Given that it’s the size of the circuit you can conveniently add to your home’s electrical panel that limits the size of an EV battery you can charge overnight, what size batteries and what range EVs are practical for the immediate future?
Let’s do some simple math. Assume 100 miles range per 30kWh for vehicle performance. Code allows a continuous current draw of 80% line rating for electric circuits. Also assume adding an additional 50a circuit is the upper limit most existing homes can accommodate without a major upgrade to electrical service.
Useful battery size (amount of charge that can be added during overnight charging) is given by:
Battery kWh = 0.8 x (amps) x (line voltage) x (8 hour charge time)
EV Range for a given size battery is given by:
Range miles = Battery kWh x ( 100 miles / 30kWh)
So considering common residential circuits of 110v and 208v we compute the limits for practical battery sizes and vehicle range below:
(Note: typically single family homes have 240v service while commercial and multifamily buildings have 208v service. I use the lower 208v service for these calculations.)
A 15a 110v circuit gives 10.5kWh battery with EV range of 35 miles.
A 20a 208v circuit gives 26.6kWh battery with EV range of 89 miles.
A 30a 208v circuit gives 39.9kWh battery with EV range of 133 miles.
A 40a 208v circuit gives 53.2kWh battery with EV range of 177 miles.
A 50a 208v circuit gives 66.6kWh battery with EV range of 222 miles.
How much range is good enough is a personal judgement, although clearly the limitation imposed by 110v charging dictates the necessity for a range-extender, and we are very happy with our Volt.
Charging on a 20a 208v circuit allows a 26kWh battery to be charged overnight and yields a very useful 89 mile battery range, although this in not enough range for my personal comfort level. I would prefer EVs with 26kWh or less battery to have range-extenders for my local driving.
Access to a 30a 208v circuit will allow a 40kWh battery to be charged overnight and yields a vehicle with a 133 mile range. This is my personal threshold for a pure EV that meets all my local driving needs. Home circuits with greater capacity, the 40a and 50a circuits, support large enough battery sizes that those EVs have no range issues for local driving and offer useful utility for some distance traveling.
+3
Jan 21st, 2012 (4:55 pm)But what happens when I forget to plug my car in? Or the power goes out? Or my travel pans instantly change? I need the range extender to be able to propel the car 100% on its own. That means it needs to be bigger than what you are suggesting. I would be upset if I bought a car for all my tasks, then a hiccup happens and my car becomes worthless.
+1
Jan 21st, 2012 (5:07 pm)Yes true. The range extender does need to propel the car on its own if you are to have unlimited range. The 30kW unit of the feature article does seem to hit the sweet spot. I’ve edited the discussion above.
The range extender at today’s battery prices does favor a smaller batter pack, but even a 40kWh battery EV could benefit from a range extender if you wanted unlimited range, depending on how the cost trade-offs worked out.
+1
Jan 21st, 2012 (5:22 pm)leeG,
I only see 2 reasons for a range extender.
(1) To be able to propel my car 100% when the battery is dead (this means a smaller battery)
(2) Limp home mode if my battery dies. This is would be something used rarely (like a spare tire) and would be installed in a car with a large battery
Until there’s public quick charging, or battery swap stations, you will need a range extender. Unless your BEV is just to get groceries/pick the kids up/etc.. and you have a gas car backup.
+2
Jan 21st, 2012 (7:27 pm)WopOnTour,
Re; Generators in trailers:
Good points, well explained, WOT.
Some additional points:
They are real gas pigs as well as the dirtiest engines on the planet. Plus, they are not designed but for very occasional emergency use.
The Hobbs meter (hour meter) on the twenty year old Onan four kilowatt generator in my old 92 Winnebago I use for short vacations has twenty four hundred hours, (two thousand more than when I bought it), and it has taken a lot to keep it running clean. And boy does it run loud and hot in the Summer when the power is needed to run the roof air conditioner. There is no long term practical reason to adapt some general purpose, air-cooled klunker generator into a trailer box. It will overheat the first or second time you run it anyway, as they must be totally exposed to the ambient air for convection cooling. (They would overheat in a matter of minutes in such an enclosure as pictured above, even if moving it along at a decent clip), so, even the one pictured above would not ever be anything you could be able to buy as an original equipment option.
+1
Jan 21st, 2012 (7:36 pm)kdawg,
So, EE Kdawg,
Don’t you think it is interesting that they used TWO generators driven by a gear reduction system??
Why not just 1 generator??
Packaging I guess.
But I’m not an EE.
What would I know.??
I’m just a gearhead.
+1
Jan 21st, 2012 (7:40 pm)This brings up another good question
Is this RE air cooled???
I don’t think so.
Jan 21st, 2012 (8:42 pm)Home made poor man’s Volt, self contained water cooling:
http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm
-7
Jan 21st, 2012 (11:23 pm)The LongRanger (the trailer pictured earlier) is a watercooled motorcycle engine of about 500cc.
+1
Jan 22nd, 2012 (12:10 am)Why only 8hrs and not 11? Also for the early BEV market, single family homes will represent the norm so 240v would be a more appropriate voltage to use, IMO. Your assumptions are also based on needing full range 2 days in a row from your home. I don’t know how often others would drive this scenario but I can’t remember ever doing it. My household, like the majority of American households, has more than one car. To be practical, the first BEVs in many of these will only need range for everyday driving, not rarities. To me, cost is the biggest issue. Why pay many thousands of dollars extra for battery capacity that will rarely be used?
+1
Jan 22nd, 2012 (12:30 am)With 300+ miles of battery range, how often would you need to charge publicly. Between my wife’s driving and mine it would be perhaps twice per year. We drive about 16,000 miles/yr combined but don’t do many extended driving vacations to potentially require public charging. Additionally electric charging infrastructure needn’t (and shoudn’t) develop to mimic oil based fueling’s infrastructure. The dynamics of needs and equipment are totally different. It makes good business sense for hotels, higwayside restaurants, regional malls, and other destination spots to install electric charge stations if these entities are confident the BEV fleet will be sufficient. For some of these quick charging is most sensible while others, like hotels, Level II charging is sufficient. With 300+ mile range and the above infrastructure and the US population’s driving patterns, how busy do you think electric filling stations will be?
+7
Jan 22nd, 2012 (8:44 am)Re: Trailer generators for EV’s.
Neither of you live in Texas, because we had eighty six days over one hundred degrees last year. This year many are expecting nearly one hundred days over one hundred degrees. Your water cooled trailer generator will not hold up, and, the cost of it in the first place is not feasible at these horrible temps. (Yes, it ***is*** global warming after all, and ***our*** man made carbon dioxide production has fiercely accelerated it. !!!!!!!!!PERIOD!!!!!!!!!)
The reason why I keep strict attention to these conditions, is that the service tech that has to work on everyone’s vehicles is in a seriously dangerous working environment now, when he has to also work over engines that are at two hundred degrees when they come into the service bay, and the impatient customer insists on immediate-completion-time-gratification because they are feeling inconvenienced to wait in a waiting room. Did you know that one hundred and eight degrees is considered seriously dangerous a work environment? And, where the humidity is also above fifty percent, those stupid two thousand dollar “swamp coolers” make the shop even more dangerous, because the body uses sweat to cool itself, and that does not take place when the swamp cooler escalates the humidity to near one hundred percent. There were many shops that I tested with an infrared thermometer last Summer, and they were routinely above one hundred and fifteen degrees. (So please pardon me for saying this, but the rest of us that sit and work in cool offices that have no strenuous physical workloads in the clicking of mice, are not ready to accept what I am warning.)
So, where there is this absurd promotion of trailer generators which, now we know must run an external belt to drive a water pump, using more energy as well to run an electric fan for the radiator, how many more parts are there to maintain, replace, and make more monthly payments for? That is why I am saying that the idea is absurd.
Someone obviously tried this, and at first look it might appear cute or quaint to many, but I would be far more impressed if he was truthful and candid and owned up to how much the thing cost in relation to how much good it has actually done him. A true credit to society is the listing of the truthful cost and benefit so that the attempted process is either repeatable with permission or avoided to prevent waste by all others who might be falsely intrigued to become indebted wrongfully but for the vanity of the “Rube Goldberg” contraption.
Cost versus benefit is not some cavalier, stated wishful bullshit solution. We literally have run out of time for bullshit in ideological politics as well as vehicular design.
It takes many years of dedicated and scientific work from the utmost of dedicated genius as are employed at GM for true “solutions” that are proven to hold up for practical daily needed use, far past when the payments are finished.
+3
Jan 22nd, 2012 (9:49 am)Agreed. There is no point to eassist unless they dumped the reg ICE and made this the base platform for the vehicle. With the new Ford Fusion lineup, the new Malibu is already out of date.
-11
Jan 22nd, 2012 (1:05 pm)(click to show comment)
Jan 22nd, 2012 (2:34 pm)Volt might get less than 50 mpg every once in a while, but Prius will never get the 100, 200 or more mpg that Volts get day in and day out. Anticipating an answer, I will say yes, but that comes with conditions… no driving over 62 mph, no fast accelerating when a truck comes up behind you. Plus you have to buy a house that’s close to where you work, so add that in to your cost of ownership.
-11
Jan 22nd, 2012 (2:41 pm)(click to show comment)
-11
Jan 22nd, 2012 (2:53 pm)(click to show comment)
+4
Jan 22nd, 2012 (3:39 pm)Your posts are always completely worthless, Chuck.
+4
Jan 22nd, 2012 (5:05 pm)He sounds like he drinks a lot before he comes here. PDNFTTTT. Please do not feed the tacky toyo trolls.
Jan 22nd, 2012 (6:12 pm)MikeWitteman on the front thread forum asked how much it would cost for a new Volt battery in 2020?
Don’t forget that GM mentioned a while back that your current battery could be reconditioned/plates scrubbed, then new electrolyte installed, all with your original battery remaining right in the car. That suggests that you may not have a very significant cost when it might be time to do something like that.
Jan 22nd, 2012 (7:09 pm)blackvolt2012 on the front page forum was concerned that not plugging in might influence the charge condition issue.
Not at all.
When any flooded lead acid battery fails, (in ***any*** vehicle, btw, esp. y2k and newer,)
all manner of unusual things can happen to any software in any processor.
The important thing to know here is to ***only*** have the original GM supplied part number battery and the remainder of all systems be maintained/serviced by GM service department personnel ***exclusively***.
Did you know that A123 has a lithium battery? It may be that the internal resistance reference specs may not be compatible with what might be needed for the many processors, but it would be great if WOT could let us know about that, since that chemistry is generally more reliable.
Jan 22nd, 2012 (7:43 pm)/edit time ran out for my above post. I wanted to edit the words “twelve volt engine starting” in front of “lithium battery” from A123.
(It likely is very pricey, though, so keeping the cost lower initially out the door makes the best sense at first.)
+1
Jan 22nd, 2012 (8:02 pm)MichaelH,
Great link on the positive spin that FOX has written on electrification.
Relentless persistence always pays for the slow but patient task of the learning process here.
+1
Jan 22nd, 2012 (9:59 pm)leeG,
Most people think absolutely nothing at having a 230V 40A circuit for their stove or 230V 30A circuit for their clothes dryer. Why should anyone think that an electric car should only require a 115V 15A circuit? or balk at the idea of having an electrician install a 230V outlet?
+2
Jan 22nd, 2012 (10:11 pm)This is the most sensible statement to-day. If you want full performance, you need 40+kW, but a much smaller, cheaper, and lighter 10-15KW would be adequate if the driver accepted that highway travel was just not an option. Since this variation has a small gas tank, then a gas heater for very cold weather would be a welcome benefit.