Dec 02

Volt has record sales month, Consumer Reports ranks it number one, federal tax credit threatened

 

Editor’s note: When it rains it pours – Volt news that is. Following is a (partial) weekend roundup – three Volt stories briefed into one and we’ll have more on Monday.

 

Yesterday Chevrolet reported another record Volt sales month for November amounting to 1,139 delivered in North America. This narrowly improves on last month’s 1,108 Volts sold. The end of month total was recorded as 6,142 Volts sold.

In other news, Consumer Reports said yesterday that the Volt is number one in owner satisfaction – topping even the vaunted Porsche 911 costing twice as much.

 

And in yet more news, as the Chevrolet Volt approaches its first full year of production and accomplishes nationwide roll-out, U.S. Rep Mike Kelly (R, Pa.) has said he’d like to end the federal tax credit available to electric automobiles.

Sales

Last month we reported the number of Volts sold jumped 50 percent from September to October, and it appeared going into November that the monthly numbers had a fair chance of cresting progressively higher – but they didn’t.

Yesterday, GM Spokesman Rob Peterson said he does not know whether the company will reach its goal of 10,000 North American deliveries by the end of the calendar year, but to do so will require 3,858 sales this month.

This is less than likely, and Don Johnson, GM’s vice president of sales operations has already conceded to CNNMoney that GM will miss the target.

“We’re not at all disappointed,” Johnson said, “We’ll hit it early next year.”

Peterson noted the Volt is all-new technology, 10,000 is an “aggressive target” for GM to reach for, and also said the Volt will reach 10,000, and keep climbing,

It probably did not help much that the Volt has been aggressively questioned in the media this month, although Peterson said he did not know for certain whether this was a measurable detriment to sales.

It’s at least clear that issues surrounding the Volt have been in the media’s eye more than GM would like.

GM’s offer of an alternate gasoline-powered loaner car until an ongoing NHTSA investigation into batteries is resolved was its attempt to “get out in front” of the issues, Peterson said.

Oh, and by the way, yesterday USA Today reported GM Chairman and CEO Dan Akerson said this loaner plan includes the contingency that GM would go so far as to buy back a Volt if an owner’s complaint called for it.

GM Spokesperson Michele Bunker said this is not “new news” and it was part of Monday’s announcement, but if that is true, we and everyone else missed it until yesterday.

Consumer Reports

Reasons for Volt owners being happy enough to top the charts – 93 percent said they would buy it again – include the fact that early adapters are EV enthusiasts to begin with, plus GM has done a great job overall with its customer outreach, particularly via its Volt Advisors.

GM has provided kid glove service to its early adapters giving them a Cadillac-quality ride and treatment, even if there is only a humble bow tie on the Volt’s front grille.

 

The results tallied by Consumers Reports came prior to the NHTSA investigation, but Volt owners have continued to say they are not all that worried about it.

Without specifying a number, Peterson said he knows of only “a handful” (reportedly 33) of Volt owners so worried about the NHTSA evaluation as to request a loaner.

Tax credit threatened?

Whether the Republican congressman from Pennsylvania can gain support for his saber rattling remains to be seen, but disgruntled Chevy dealer U.S. Rep. Mike Kelly keeps on trying.

The Detroit News recently reported Kelly said the Volt “has become the poster child of President Obama’s failed green agenda.”

“Like many green initiatives promoted by this administration and bankrolled by the American taxpayer, the electric car is better in theory than in practice; has limited consumer demand; is heavily subsidized; and has fallen short of reaching its targeted goals,” he wrote. “Despite the fact that the federal government has no business subsidizing a product that a manufacturer could just as easily promote through rebates and other buyer incentives, the tax subsidies are largely going to the affluent few who can actually afford to buy an electric car, which costs anywhere between $40,000 (Chevy Volt) to $97,000 (Fisker’s Karma).”

Kelly observed that the average annual income of Volt buyers is $175,000, and a large percentage are in Southern California.

“GM has made some of the finest automobiles known to man. They are master marketers, and every product researched, designed, and developed was done through rigorous market research and analysis,” Kelly said. “However, when the model changes, when a manufacturer puts politics ahead of market demand, when the return on investment is measured in terms of political gain rather than financial gain, the results vary drastically.”


Kelly shared his thoughts on the Volt at the end of October.

We called Kelly’s Washington, D.C. office yesterday and spoke to his Press Secretary Julia Thornton. She replied later via email with answers to our questions whether he had specific legislation proposed, or how he intended to accomplish a reversal of the tax credit.

“Rep. Kelly is keeping his legislative options open,” Thornton wrote. “Rep. Kelly’s primary focus is to reduce government spending, decrease our nation’s $15 trillion debt, and ensure that taxpayer dollars are used as wisely and cost-effectively as possible. As Rep. Kelly always says, you can only spend a dollar once.”

Perspective

The Volt – which got underway during the Bush administration – threatens the established order by offering a viable, well-engineered electric car with no range anxiety. Drivers who stay in EV mode can go many months and several thousands of miles without stopping for gasoline.

At the same time, its gasoline backup means longer trips as far as desired are nothing to worry about, as the Volt can also be filled up at any gas station and offers close to 40 mpg.

GM did deliberately roll the car out slowly, starting with just seven states in the beginning, and various interests have seemingly made it a mission to tear the vehicle down pointing at first to slow sales as some form of evidence it was a flop out of the gate.

Frankly, some critics have been like a pack of dogs nipping at the Volt’s heels, looking for anything to accuse it of. Several near-scandals have been alleged this year, and the knee-jerk reaction in the media has been to cover the story. Some have been fair, some have not.

What’s important to remember is the Volt and GM have been vindicated in all defamation attempts thus far, and owners and would-be buyers have been reported as saying they can see past the smokescreens.

Meanwhile, the sheer number of awards and accolades the Volt has earned – including the most recent tip-of-the-hat from Consumer Reports which initially thought to criticize the car – has been astonishing.

Our best guess is whatever does not kill the Volt will make it stronger. We predict it will come out looking better in the long run, and the first months will be looked back on as exciting times.

While they have been alarming times to some as they happened, we think the first year will be remembered as one of trials the Volt weathered and overcame.

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This entry was posted on Friday, December 2nd, 2011 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 117


  1. 1
    pat

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (7:01 am)

    Unbelievable how hateful some rightwingers are! Puzzling thing to me? Has rep Mike talked to God (as they usually do) and what has he said? I will be curious. Amen


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    John

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (7:05 am)

    I’d like to see a comercial made at some point that shows the volt driving past an angry, dirty mob backset by SUVs and oil derricks yelling at the volt as it drives by. Perhaps even driving by another group of people (the all electrics that hate the volt for having a range extender). The tag line would be something along the lines of “haters gota hate”, or people being blinded by jealousy…

    I don’t have time to write a script, I’ve got to drive to work in my new volt :)


  3. 3
    Raymondjram

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (7:15 am)

    pat:
    Unbelievable how hateful some rightwingers are!Puzzling thing to me? Has rep Mike talked to God (as they usually do) and what has he said? I will be curious. Amen

    Since he is from Pennsylvania, he spoke to the Petroleum God. He needs a good oil enema to clear him up!

    Raymond


  4. 4
    Loboc

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (7:19 am)

    Someone in Penn obviously thinks that EVs are the way to go. Kelly’s own State has an additional $3500 incentive.

    I really don’t get why using domestic coal is just as bad as imported oil. The big picture is missing for some of my fellow Republicans.


  5. 5
    Jim I

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (7:51 am)

    I just don’t get the sales counts.

    We have been told that there were about 3500 of the 2011 model year Volts sold. Only a few hundred of those were actually sold in calendar year 2010.

    My 2012 Volt that was purchased on 10-04-2011 is # C-5277. And each new model year resets the vehicle number counter to 1.

    In another post on this site, it was reported that the highest # manufactured for the 2012 model year is above 11000.

    So it looks to me like they have produced over 14500 units already for the 2011 and 2012 model years.

    So why does GM keep talking about 6000 Volts on the road, and that they have not met a target of 10000 units sold in calendar year 2011?

    What am I missing?

    C-5277 – Proudly Purchased on 10-04-2011 In Youngstown, Ohio


  6. 6
    Roy_H

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (7:53 am)

    Well, I guess I’ll have to eat crow. Can it be plucked and cooked?

    I was absolutely positive that Volt sales would be more than 3000 and most likely greater than 4000. This dismal number of 1139 has no excuses like previous months filling the pipeline and demonstrators. Hamtramck can produce 5k Volts/mth. Obviously GM has to perform some miracle and drastically reduce the price to jump sales into high gear.

    I am still confused as to when the batteries will be made in Holland Michigan. Early 2012? Hopefully this will allow a significant reduction in the price of the Volt. Same question about the motors, are they still made in Austria or is the Flint production going now?

    Oh, and I wonder if the tax credit is holding back sales because it is not an instant rebate given by the dealers? Not every prospective Volt buyer has $7500 of available credit and is willing to wait till next year to get it.


  7. 7
    Roy_H

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (7:53 am)

    In total GM sales have gone up something like 7%. Good,not great, but the most interesting part is that fleet sales have gone down, and retail sales up almost 15%, so this is very good news as fleet sales generally are very low profit.


  8. 8
    xiaowei1

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:10 am)

    Politics is amazing in the US. It’s amazing how so many people criticize the government for providing bail out packages for the Auto industry, then criticise its products of the auto industry as if they two things are tangibly linked. Clearly a product is still created by the corporation, not “the government”. The product may be influenced by policy of a government, but the corporations come up with it.

    The politics in Australia seems to differ substantially, as does the media. They will both have a go at things, but just not to the same level as in the US. If a Minister makes a stupid comment like “all electricity comes from coal”, they would get crucified by the media after being asked at question time in parliament by the opposition “if they know how many people have solar cells on their roofs?” To make blanket claims that all electricity comes from coal would be picked up as just being plain wrong, and very limited in scope.

    I’m sure we have people in parliament against electric cars, along with members of the public who think cars need to make extremely prevalent amounts of noise to be considered worthy of driving, however they will certainly be held to task on their beliefs.

    Criticism and debate are good things, but they need to be substantiated with good argument or they will simply show how much some people are ill informed.


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    Nelson

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:16 am)

    Wow! All I can say is if you live in Pennsylvania, have a job, and pay taxes you’d be crazy not to get a Volt.
    $41,000 MSRP
    – $7,500 Federal Tax credit
    – $3,500 Pennsylvania State credit
    = $30,000 Volt

    NPNS!
    Volt#671


  10. 10
    Schmeltz

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:22 am)

    As a fellow Pennsylvanian, I don’t share Mr. Kelly’s views on the Volt! He’s entitled to his opinion though even if it differs. We’re not going to convince everyone over night, so let’s just continue to fight the good fight.

    Regarding GM missing the 10000 sales mark for the year, I have to say I feel GM has some ownership in this. Bottom line, they were too slow in getting the car to all of the states. Figuring they sold at a clip of about 1100/month since the nationwide rollout commenced, they should have been able to fly past the 10000 mark by year’s end had they started nationwide sooner. Unfortunately they waited to the last quarter of the year to finally get the cars to dealers nationwide. That availability handicap is what hurt them IMO. It’s spilled milk now, but I think they could’ve avoided that black eye if they would have had the will to do so.


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    jt

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:29 am)

    One problem might be that not enough people have even experienced a ride around the block in a Volt.

    There may be many representatives who still have not had the opportunity to even have a ride in a Volt. It might be one of those situations where it might be difficult to fault anyone if they had not ever had this experience. This situation is what would make the most sense to me for representatives not all fully supporting electrification.

    It’s not just the quality of the ride itself, but it regards a sense that I think all of us have that there are deeply- fundamentally necessary technologies that must to go mainstream when you have a ride in a Volt. If you are a Volt owner, maybe it could be a really nice thing to do to offer to your favorite representatives and legislators a ride in your Volt some Sunday afternoon, and, maybe even offer this to other of their colleagues as well.


  12. 12
    Rashiid Amul

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:30 am)

    The problem is, many people believe what they read in the newspapers, see on Tv, or hear on the radio. But bad press sells. I don’t have a Volt yet, but I have absolutely no fear of it.


  13. 13
    Charlie H

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:35 am)

    Volt production decreased this month, to 2029 (in October it was over 2200). That’s an interesting development for a car that “availability constrained.” GM even referred to this on the most recent S&P conference call.

    I also notice that Toyota is taking a different tack with the Prius PHV… You can now order it. The process is, you order it and they ship it to your dealer. First-come, first-served. No dealer allocations, no rollout markets, no malarkey. That’s how they did the original Prius, too.

    There was a lot of interest in the Volt from the announcement. GM could have run a similar program, starting about 6 months before the car was delivered but GM chose to steer cars to dealers who might or might not have had buyers instead (and to insist on demos instead of getting Volts on the street). The Camaro rollout was similarly bungled; people who had paid significant deposits had the pleasure of driving past shiny Camaros sitting on dealer lots (with big markups, in some cases), while they continued to wait for their Camaro.


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    Tim Hart

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:40 am)

    Amidst all the exciting news I finally have a VIN #! Ya hoo! What a Christmas present the Volt will be even if the middle of winter is not the greatest time to first have it. It will be fun to see the EV range keep getting better as spring gets closer. And thanks to the ever expanding Volt family that is such a joy to be a part of!


  15. 15
    Bonaire

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:40 am)

    Nelson:
    Wow! All I can say is if you live in Pennsylvania, have a job, and pay taxes you’d be crazy not to get a Volt. $41,000MSRP– $7,500 Federal Tax credit– $3,500 Pennsylvania State credit
    =$30,000 Volt
    NPNS!
    Volt#671

    Actually, lower.

    Base volt = $39995 (without the premium colors, includes destination charge).
    Haggle = -500 off MSRP or more if GM Loyalty program used.
    Fed = -7500
    State = -3500
    GM Card = -1000 (I hope to use that in the early spring)

    You can drive a Volt in PA out of pocket for $ 27495 + taxes.

    The Volt I buy will need to have: 1.4L made in Michigan and a US/Canada content > 50%.


  16. 16
    jt

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:50 am)

    Actions speak louder than words. Make new friends of your legislators (either *and* both sides of the aisle).


  17. 17
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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:07 am)

    I have good news about our country Obama has just signed a bill to make HIV drugs more affordable to the USA and even 12 other countries in Africa plus even New York City wants to give HIV drugs to anyone who has the virus. Way to go! Note) People of the Volt website I’m not posting links about electric cars or PHEV’S but something about AIDS okay. Here’s the articles guys enjoy.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-57334779-10391704/obama-on-aids-we-can-beat-this-disease/

    http://news.yahoo.com/nyc-recommends-aids-drugs-person-hiv-054601711.html

    Also I’m deeply concerned but I just wish the media could hush up and learn a lesson or two more about alternative vehicles for Pete sakes! What a bunch of foul mouth cry babies they are!


  18. 18
    Eric Zito

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:23 am)

    Jeff, I really agree with the end of your summary. If GM can stick with this through this challenging period when there is a lot of overblown negative hype, I think the very valid merits of the vehicle will win out. There is such a huge divide between the extreme satisfaction of those who have driven the car and the negative spin from those who have not — really highlights the value of getting the on-hand experience and the testimonials out there in the public forum. The car is such a departure from 100 years of motor vehicle history, it is hard for a lot of people to understand until they see/feel it. I was skeptical at first, but the facts have won out.

    Eric
    Volt #6038


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    bookdabook

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:28 am)

    Not hitting 10K? That’s just poor planning at HQ. I’m sure they could have sold 20K if they were better organized. This has got to be a drop in the bucket for their overall sales. They are being cautious about slowly introducing this new technology but still not hitting 10K, that’s ridiculous! Didn’t that manager learn the mantra of all managers: “Under promise and over deliver.” Do you think if Apple managers predict they can sell 10M iPads for Christmas they won’t make sure every store is jam packed with those little babies. Akerson needs to tell his guys to be aggressive but make sure you can hit those marks or else he’ll go out and find somebody else who can.

    Silently motoring in #135 and I would never give it back.
    -Book


  20. 20
    JWM

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:30 am)

    (click to show comment)


  21. 21
    Jeff

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:31 am)

    I am nearing one year since I took delivery of my Volt (I have one of the very first ones produced — my VIN# is 71). I’ve filled it up only once and I’m still months away from a second fill-up. I’ve had zero problems with the car. Each time I get into it, I cannot wait to drive it. While there is no range anxiety, I still hate it when the engine comes on. Driving a Volt changes your mindset. You don’t ever want to fall back on the range extender (even though you’re glad it’s there). It has been a lonely year in that I have seen no other Volts on the road — until this week — when I encountered two! The first — I flew out of BWI airport, where they have four reserved parking spaces in the near-term lot with fast chargers (free, I might add). Only EVs are allowed to park there. It felt great to pull into one of those spaces and charge up while I was away for a day on a business trip. BWI is more than 40 miles from my house, so I arrived with a depleted battery. The thought of driving the 40+ miles home beginning with the range extender running was horrifying to me. It was great upon my return to BWI from my trip to find my car fully charged! Moreover, there was another Volt parked right next to mine in a reserved EV space charging up. I felt a great kinship to that other Volt owner, because he/she was experiencing the same sense of gas-free driving satisfaction as me. My second encounter was just yesterday when I noticed a Volt driving alongside of me. Of course I honked and waived. I am convinced that EVs are here to stay this time around. I drive Volt version 1.0 and it is nearly flawless. Just imagine what it will be like a few years from now, with improvements and refinements each year. It’s almost scary. GO VOLT NATION!!


  22. 22
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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:35 am)

    Representative Kelly appears to be slanting his arguments. By conveniently leaving out the Nissan Leaf, he implies the low end cost for an electric vehicle is over $40,000. The Leaf is closer to $35,000. Still high compared to a similar internal combustion engine vehicle, but much lower than the $40,000 he uses for his argument.

    He also makes a vague statement about “fallen short of reaching its targeted goals.” To which goals is he referring? Gas mileage? Production? Sales? Whatever is being asserted, there is still unmet demand for both the Nissan Leaf and the Chevy Volt. The goal that manufacturers might be short on is production. Both have taken a cautious rollout approach taking steps to make sure things are done right rather than rushing vehicles out too soon. Further the Leaf production and shipments were impacted by the earthquake, tsunami, and a later typhoon.

    Also, since Representative Kelly is so interested in reducing government spending and ending government subsidies, I hope he is also planning to introduce legislation to end oil subsidies. If both oil subsidies and electric car subsidies were eliminated, I wonder whether electric car demand would actually increase since people would be paying much more for gasoline and would then see the lower cost of operation for an electric vehicle even more clearly.


  23. 23
    Shawn Marshall

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:35 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:36 am)

    I understand the importance of ‘freedom of speech’ in the US but the clip I just saw from Fox News is nothing but misinformation delivered with confidence.

    At some point, the senator is saying that you have to finance the cars that stay on the lot. I don’t believe he has to finance any Volt on his lot. He might have one – the demo – and that’s it.

    Electricity 100% from coal ? Misinformation.

    GM owes 20 billion dollars to the government. Again, misinformation.

    The list goes on and on. How bad are people informed in the US ?


  25. 25
    nasaman

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:38 am)

    FWIW, I emailed MIKE KELLY CHEVROLET CADILLAC 252 Pittsburgh Rd. Butler, PA 16002 this morning asking, “I’m interested in any color 2012 (or 2011) Volt with black leather interior. Will Kelly sell me a new Volt at MSRP? Pls reply ASAP by email. Thanks!”

    Their reply: “Phil, Kelly Chevrolet is not a Chevrolet Volt dealer.

    Doug Orloski

    Internet Sales Consultant
    Mike Kelly Automotive
    Direct: 724-504-3464
    Email: dorloski@mikekellyauto.dealerspace.com
    http://www.mikekellyautomotive.com/
    Learn about our Gold Rewards Program!”

    I assume this means Kelly never asked to be a Volt dealer (or possibly, after his interview on Faux News), GM made that decision for him. It seems he at least “walks the talk” regarding the Volt.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:38 am)

    It’s just too expensive. There, I said it. :) GM overestimated what people are willing to pay for the car, even before the general public was convinced it was going to spontaneously combust.

    At this time, the average car buyer does not see an EV experience as worth paying a premium for. Until they do, the typical person will just do the math to calculate “savings” in electricity vs. gas compared to the premium paid for the car and conclude it’s not worth it. The plug in prius will have the same problem.

    I personally believe that that same average car buyer, having driven one, might have a change of tune. Typical responses of non-car-nerds to my car are overwhelmingly positive about how quiet and smooth it is. It’s also possible that the large number of EV offerings coming to market, coupled with car price increases as the automakers cope with high CAFE standards (reducing the premium), may cause a shift in consumer sentiment to more pro-EV and the Volt will look like the sensible compromise to a lot of people.

    Who knows? Happy I have mine in the meantime.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:39 am)

    JWM: Combined with feather weight, two inches of snow will stop a Volt in it’s narrow tracks.

    Was I talking about misinformation earlier ?


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:43 am)

    Greg: Also, since Representative Kelly is so interested in reducing government spending and ending government subsidies, I hope he is also planning to introduce legislation to end oil subsidies. If both oil subsidies and electric car subsidies were eliminated, I wonder whether electric car demand would actually increase since people would be paying much more for gasoline and would then see the lower cost of operation for an electric vehicle even more clearly.

    Well said.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (10:08 am)

    When I read Rep. Kelly’s quote I really don’t find any disagreement with EXACTLY what he said, but rather the implications of what he is saying. Who is making those implications? Is it me, or is it Kelly? I suspect a bit of both. I too don’t think the govt should be offering subsidies for buying these cars but I also don’t think we should be subsidizing the price of other energies either. If we were not doing that there would be no need for an electric car subsidy or an ethanol subsidy or even solar subsidies. His comment about a product being designed with politics instead of consumers being put first is spot on but does that mean he is saying the Volt was done that way? First off, President Bush was in office when this whole thing started, not Obama and more importantly the Volt just scored very high in consumer reports satisfaction survey. Sure sounds like the customer came first. But then again he never specifically said “Volt” when he made that open ended charge so there we are again with implications.

    I think GM-Volt is making a big mistake by continuing to high light people like Mike Kelly or Neil Cavuto when they bash the Volt. There was a poll here once that indicated that Volt supporters on this site who identified themselves as Republicans were only slightly behind those who called themselves Democrats so support for this tech is bi-partisan, even if the reasons are different. To continue to do so runs the risk of branding Volt and other such vehicles as liberal only and that would be a huge mistake and only serve to slow adoption and integration of these cars into mainstream. My experience has been that neither side of the political spectrum has a monopoly in blowhards and idiots even if though they may have a decided lead on a particular issue.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (10:20 am)

    “Without specifying a number, Peterson said he knows of only “a handful” (reportedly 33) of Volt owners so worried about the NHTSA evaluation as to request a loaner.”
    —————

    Amazing. Who are these people? I’d like to know, because I will let them drive my car while I drive their Volt :)


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    kdawg

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (10:28 am)

    nasaman: Their reply: “Phil, Kelly Chevrolet is not a Chevrolet Volt dealer.

    LOL. You should send a reply “Oh, sorry for my confusion. Do you know where I can buy a Chevy Volt, or maybe one those electric Toyotas?”


  32. 32
    Islander

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (10:35 am)

    Republican Rep. Mike Kelly, 3rd district Pennsylvania is a rural district in North Western PA. The area is mostly farming and distressed with higher under and unemployment. I spent most of my life in Western PA up until about 5 years ago where I was forced to move to CA for a decent job. All of my family and friends remain in Western Pennsylvania.

    The Republican leaders and all of those in lock step behind them have publicly vowed to destroy the current President of the United States to make sure he does not get re-elected. In short, what that means is everything the President touches or attempts to accomplish will be blocked in every way, shape and form possible. Some ways will be with direct legislation blocked and others will be to tear down EVERYTHING the President of the United States touches.

    What the result is for this time the Republicans are attacking the President of the United States to attempt to make him fail is directly proportional to how the country will fail in all ways possible. This in turn means that the citizens of the United States will feel it most, if not all the proportional pain, assault and failure. The “green” initiatives including the Volt and GM still in business with the help of government loans (Started with President Bush) are initiatives with the President therefore they will be under assault. Expect more assaults to come from all directions and most definitely on the success of the electrification of America’s automobiles.

    Republican Rep. Kelley is on the “Automobile“ Caucus. I wonder what that really means and which special interest it serves?

    Drill baby drill and close that Iranian embassy already!!


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    Bonaire

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (10:36 am)

    If Mike Kelly were really “out for the money” to save the deficit, he would not zero in on the Volt specifically or EVs in general. He would go after the Home Mortgage Interest deduction. Millions of people take substantial deductions on their home mortgage interest. A couple decades ago, we used to be able to deduct credit card interest but that was taken away. How about child tax credits?

    Why should us tax payers pay to put people in homes and to put children at your feet? Canada is doing fine and they don’t have a mortgage interest tax deduction. And they have “free health care” too.

    (mild sarcasm above – but you get my point)

    The tax income that they represent is quite low and is a benefit to this country. And started by Bush in 2008 at 250,000 total vehicles and we haven’t even hit that yet. If anything, he should be bellyaching about giving the tax credit to *imported* EVs over American made. But like the post right above this one – he names names, the Volt and Fisker (both Obama-oriented bailout and DoE loan recipient). He’s actually complaining about a tax credit created by a Republican administration.


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    Charlie H

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (10:43 am)

    kdawg: “Without specifying a number, Peterson said he knows of only “a handful” (reportedly 33) of Volt owners so worried about the NHTSA evaluation as to request a loaner.”—————Amazing. Who are these people? I’d like to know, because I will let them drive my car while I drive their Volt

    I’m not at all likely to buy a Volt but, heck, I’d certainly be willing to trade my car for a Volt for a while if the owner is too nervous to drive it.

    It’s not as though every car on the road isn’t a potential fire hazard, anyway. From all the hoopla about the battery, you’d think nobody had noticed that gasoline burns and quite nicely, too.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (10:51 am)

    kdawg: nasaman: Their reply: “Phil, Kelly Chevrolet is not a Chevrolet Volt dealer.

    LOL. You should send a reply “Oh, sorry for my confusion. Do you know where I can buy a Chevy Volt, or maybe one those electric Toyotas?”

    Actually, I did reply back to the guy at Kelly Chevrolet. Here’s our last exchange…
    ————————————————————————
    2nd Kelly email: “Mr. Toney,

    We do offer a good selection of vehicles. May i ask what about the Volt interests you?
    Doug Orloski

    Internet Sales Consultant
    Mike Kelly Automotive”
    ————————————————————————
    My reply to Kelly:
    “Doug -

    Briefly, I’ve aggressively test driven two different Volts as well as a Nissan Leaf and a Fisker Karma. The Volt literally handles/performs like a BMW 3-series but is smoother/quieter than a Rolls Phantom. I’ll definitely be buying an electric car in the near future. Oh, and the Volt’s operating cost is about 1/5th that of a Camaro, for example.

    - Phil Toney
    ————————————————————————
    (Surprise… He had no further response :) :) :) )


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    Dan W

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (11:16 am)

    Nelson:
    Wow! All I can say is if you live in Pennsylvania, have a job, and pay taxes you’d be crazy not to get a Volt. $41,000MSRP– $7,500 Federal Tax credit– $3,500 Pennsylvania State credit
    =$30,000 Volt

    NPNS!
    Volt#671

    Indeed, and I did! I bought my Volt in March this year, in Michigan. I titled it in PA, of course, and paid PA sales tax + county (7% total). I received my $3500 check recently from the state. The $7500 was “financed” through Ally with their 15 month, zero %, no payment due offer at that time. Out the door, my loaded 2011 Volt, with Tax, title, etc was $44,000. Minus the tax break I’m at $33,000.

    Not that I care all that much about the fuel savings really, but friends have asked me about that. So far, with a total of over 11,000 miles driven, 50% EV, compared to my prior car, I’ve saved about $1500 in fuel costs. For me the Volt represents American engineering capability, high tech jobs for us, less $$$ leaving the country for energy, etc. I’d much rather send my “fuel” use money to a local electric company, vs. an out of country oil producer.

    Anyway, I was saving for a BMW 3 series before I caught the Volt bug at the initial launch in Detroit. To me, my Volt is every bit the luxury car a 3 series is, minus the pure performance, of course. 3 of my previous cars were BMWs. So, in effect, I saved a ton of $ comparing the Volt to a 3 series, at mid 40s.

    I would buy another Volt in a heart beat, and we may do so. I’m kind of holding out to see what the ELR is all about or if they bring forward a cross over that seats 5.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (11:54 am)

    nasaman,

    That was a good response. You went the high road. I may have been more devious and said “Are you crazy? What’s not to like about the free $7500 Obama is giving away!?” LOL, tht would have got Kelly riled up.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (12:19 pm)

    Just watched the video above. Got a little sick to my stomach, having to endure Faux News.

    A) Mike Kelly & the interviewer STILL do not know how the Volt works, still.
    B) If he’s a free market person, then don’t subsidize oil and let’s see where the chips fall?
    C) He’s against “dirty coal plants”, but doesn’t realize only 1/2 our electricity comes from coal, and it doesn’t have to. However, 100% of ICE cars need gasoline, unless you go with Ethanol, but now we’re back to those subsidies he hates so much, right?
    D) If he’s against wasting tax payer money, then how about stoping some of the 1.4 trillion waste on the defense budget fight oil wars.
    E) If he’s worried there is no market for the Volt, then how about lowering income taxes, raising gasoline taxes, and see where the invisible hand of the market moves. Talk about creating artificial market environments, oil is the worst culprit.

    I could go on for days…. He’s a thick headed politician with an agenda, who takes money from lobbyist, which makes him a hypocrite.

    Oh, and I liked the little jab at Obama’s Martha’s Vinyard vacation, even thouh Obama has taken less vacay than the last 3 republicans, while GW spend 1/3 of his presidency on vacation.

    “According to FactCheck.org, Obama spent all, or part of, 26 days of his first year in office on vacation. This was less than all three previous Republican presidents, Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and George W. Bush, but more than the two previous Democratic presidents, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.”

    http://www.politicususa.com/en/obama-bush-vacation


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (12:24 pm)

    pat:
    Unbelievable how hateful some rightwingers are!Puzzling thing to me? Has rep Mike talked to God (as they usually do) and what has he said? I will be curious. Amen

    #1

    Amen. +1


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (12:26 pm)

    Raymondjram: Since he is from Pennsylvania, he spoke to the Petroleum God. He needs a good oil enema to clear him up!

    Raymond

    #3

    Amen. +1


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (12:30 pm)

    Rashiid Amul:
    The problem is, many people believe what they read in the newspapers, see on Tv, or hear on the radio.But bad press sells.I don’t have a Volt yet, but I have absolutely no fear of it.

    #12

    Hi Rashiid. Nice to “see” you. +1

    It kind of seems like old home week around here. I love it.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (12:32 pm)

    Sean: I have good news about our country Obama has just signed a bill to make HIV drugs more affordable to the USA and even 12 other countries in Africa plus even New York City wants to give HIV drugs to anyone who has the virus. Way to go!

    #17

    I agree. +1


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (12:41 pm)

    kdawg: D) If he’s against wasting tax payer money, then how about stoping some of the 1.4 trillion waste on the defense budget fight oil wars.

    #38

    Damned right! +1


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (12:53 pm)

    Roy_H,

    In New York, $7,500 was taken off the purchase price of my Volt (1271). I think it depends on the dealer.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (1:02 pm)

    Roy_H: I am still confused as to when the batteries will be made in Holland Michigan. Early 2012? Hopefully this will allow a significant reduction in the price of the Volt. Same question about the motors, are they still made in Austria or is the Flint production going now?

    I forget the date on Holland, but Flint is making the engines now. There was a GM webchat a week or so ago where this was answered by GM. I’d have to do some digging to find the link.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (1:04 pm)

    CJSP: Roy_H,
    In New York, $7,500 was taken off the purchase price of my Volt (1271). I think it depends on the dealer.

    Did they have to check your tax status first? Did they use some kind of 3rd party rebate service that I’ve heard of, or what is just the dealer doing it?


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (1:09 pm)

    Shawn Marshall:
    15,000,000,000,000 in debt.
    Should not be giving 7500 to the “rich” to buy their fantasy car. Pay for it yourself. Please donate your rebate to reduce the Federal deficit.
    (X)EVs will have to stand on their own in the marketplace eventually – all else is dross.

    Prius November 2011 sales 15,208 ^42.8%
    LeafNovember 2011 sales 672

    Volt beats Leaf, Leaf sales declining, what will Volt sales do?

    Since you’re so concerned about the federal debt and we’re running a current account deficit (20% of which comes from our oil import), maybe we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Increase gas tax to a civilized level (comparable to rest of the developed world) and use that money to pay off our vaunted debt. This will reduce demand and help reduce oil import, thereby reducing our current account deficit!

    what do you say? it’ll probably also make the Leaf/Volt more attractive.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (1:13 pm)

    GM’s denying the decision to buy back Volt. Saying it’s the public’s misunderstanding of its CEO’s words (including news reported here).

    http://wot.motortrend.com/gm-wont-buy-back-chevy-volts-will-offer-loaner-cars-during-fire-investigation-142019.html

    Also in the forum, from Volt’s advising team.

    http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?10280-Amid-fire-scare-GM-willing-to-buy-back-Volts/page6&s=bee8dbf996d053638e51f19cba25630a

    “did not announce any new initiative.”


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (1:25 pm)

    yoyo: “…Increase gas tax to a civilized level (comparable to rest of the developed world) and use that money to pay off our vaunted debt. This will reduce demand and help reduce oil import, thereby reducing our current account deficit!”

    Your online name may be “yo yo”, but you’re certainly NOT a “yo yo” mentally! Having been to and driven in 25 countries outside the US, it makes me crazy that we sell gas for about HALF the price in most other countries, most of whose citizens can’t even begin to afford it when compared to us!!!


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (1:25 pm)

    If that clown congressman is so unhappy with what GM is doing why doesn’t he sell his dealership. Better yet, why doesn’t GM take it away from him?


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (1:42 pm)

    Fred: If that clown congressman is so unhappy with what GM is doing why doesn’t he sell his dealership. Better yet, why doesn’t GM take it away from him?

    It would be interesting to hear Mike Riley’s opinion on the GM “bailout”. It helped his dealership/business/livelyhood, but it was taxpayer money. Maybe someone should ask him and then watch his head explode.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (1:45 pm)

    Shawn Marshall: 15,000,000,000,000 in debt.
    Should not be giving 7500 to the “rich” to buy their fantasy car. Pay for it yourself. Please donate your rebate to reduce the Federal deficit.
    (X)EVs will have to stand on their own in the marketplace eventually – all else is dross.

    Really? I have a better idea, how about I DON”T give my $7500 to the Federal Reserve so they can give $7.7 trillion in discount window loans to Wall Street banks at 0.01% interest. Then those same banks use the money to buy US Treasuries which pay 3%, generating 13 billion in profit for the bank. Afterwards, giving themselves bonuses for doing such a great job. I guess banks don’t need to “stand on their own”, so why should EV’s? I’d rather subsidize something that makes sense than banker’s pockets.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (2:00 pm)

    I don’t like to argue about politics but there is a major flaw in the logic of conservatives when they criticize the EV tax credit. The EV tax credit allows the taxpayer to keep more of the money they have earned. Allowing the taxpayer to keep more of their earnings is one of the pillars of conservatism. Any conservative politician who speaks out against the EV tax credit MUST have an ulterior motive.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (2:25 pm)

    Why do people complain about the $7,500 tax credit when it’s already been established that the average Volt owner makes $175,000 a year? Who do you think is paying the taxes to subsidize the tax credit? After I deduct my $7,500 tax credit, I will still have paid more taxes than 60%-70% of the population.


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    T 1

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (2:42 pm)

    Dan W: Anyway, I was saving for a BMW 3 series before I caught the Volt bug at the initial launch in Detroit. To me, my Volt is every bit the luxury car a 3 series is, minus the pure performance, of course. 3 of my previous cars were BMWs. So, in effect, I saved a ton of $ comparing the Volt to a 3 series, at mid 40s.

    This is SO cool–I have read that a lot of Volt buyers are like yourself–the competition is foreign luxury metal. No big surprise, I suppose, in that such buyers highly value the aspirational things–coolness, prestige, precision, symbolism, etc. that such vehicles provide better than their cheaper cousins. The Volt is a shift in the perception of what is valuable, and at current prices, should be marketed that way. More so than it is now, IMO. Luxury car at an entry-level luxury price.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (2:56 pm)

    Roy_H: Same question about the motors, are they still made in Austria or is the Flint production going now?

    Here’s a small article on it, talking about the shifts in Flint keeping up w/demand. Even mentions the engines for the Sonic.

    http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2011/10/gm_spokesman_says_delay_in_sec.html


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (3:58 pm)

    kdawg: Really? I have a better idea, how about I DON”T give my $7500 to the Federal Reserve so they can give $7.7 trillion in discount window loans to Wall Street banks at 0.01% interest.

    #52

    Tell it like it is brother! +1


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    Tall Pete

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (4:09 pm)

    nasaman: Having been to and driven in 25 countries outside the US, it makes me crazy that we sell gas for about HALF the price in most other countries, most of whose citizens can’t even begin to afford it when compared to us!!!

    As of today, gas is sold 1.29$CAN a liter in my area. It’s close to that (but a tad cheaper) in Ontario. Since it’s 3.785 liters for a US gallon, it adds up to

    1.29 * 3.785 = 4.88$CAN a gallon of gas in Canada. And the CAN$ is practically at par with the US$.

    Just send the Volts up north. Throw in a little incentive (say 2 or 3% apr for 84 months for example) and they will sell like hot buns. Even without the little incentive I believe. We’ll be grateful.


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    Gieso

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (4:54 pm)

    On the sales front, I have a question. Does GM report monthly/annual sales on a worldwide basis or just on the US basis?
    It has been noticed that Volt’s with VINs over 11000 have been produced yet the total sold is just over 6000. Even taking off the demos, there are still quite a few missing Volts. It would be interesting to know just how many of these US cars have been exported outside the US. We don’t even have a clear understanding how many have been sent to Canada, and we know that there are Volts in the wild there.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (5:32 pm)

    ronr64:
    When I read Rep. Kelly’s quote I really don’t find any disagreement with EXACTLY what he said, but rather the implications of what he is saying.Who is making those implications?Is it me, or is it Kelly?I suspect a bit of both.I too don’t think the govt should be offering subsidies for buying these cars but I also don’t think we should be subsidizing the price of other energies either.If we were not doing that there would be no need for an electric car subsidy or an ethanol subsidy or even solar subsidies.His comment about a product being designed with politics instead of consumers being put first is spot on but does that mean he is saying the Volt was done that way?First off, President Bush was in office when this whole thing started, not Obama and more importantly the Volt just scored very high in consumer reports satisfaction survey.Sure sounds like the customer came first.But then again he never specifically said “Volt” when he made that open ended charge so there we are again with implications.

    I think GM-Volt is making a big mistake by continuing to high light people like Mike Kelly or Neil Cavuto when they bash the Volt.There was a poll here once that indicated that Volt supporters on this site who identified themselves as Republicans were only slightly behind those who called themselves Democrats so support for this tech is bi-partisan, even if the reasons are different.To continue to do so runs the risk of branding Volt and other such vehicles as liberal only and that would be a huge mistake and only serve to slow adoption and integration of these cars into mainstream.My experience has been that neither side of the political spectrum has a monopoly in blowhards and idiots even if though they may have a decided lead on a particular issue.

    Ditto on all points. We’ve always been a VERY mixed bag of nuts here, but we HAD always shared our belief in the Volt and the need to see it as a success. A lot of that closeness seems to be getting lost in the heat of political bents. I think we’d be well served to try to recognize/remember that we share a common goal. It’s not hard to remember a time when a dozen of us would watch the site for the article of the day and try for the first post. Now we are greeted with an assault on religion? Coarse doesn’t say it.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (5:40 pm)

    jim1961:
    I don’t like to argue about politics but there is a major flaw in the logic of conservatives when they criticize the EV tax credit. The EV tax credit allows the taxpayer to keep more of the money they have earned. Allowing the taxpayer to keep more of their earnings is one of the pillars of conservatism. Any conservative politician who speaks out against the EV tax credit MUST have an ulterior motive.

    Sorry, but any true conservative would have avoided TAKING YOUR MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE. It’s no joy in getting back that which was ours all along.
    Drop all the subsidies (yes, to oil too), revamp the tax system so that the base is broadened (more people have skin in the game), reduce or eliminate tax breaks, and lower the percentage.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (5:41 pm)

    Watching that video was a frustrating experience. One question though: are the Volt sales numbers low because Chevy isn’t making enough of them available for purchase, or are they having trouble selling the ones that are available to buy today?


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (7:25 pm)

    nasaman: Increase gas tax to a civilized level (comparable to rest of the developed world) and use that money to pay off our vaunted debt. This will reduce demand and help reduce oil import, thereby reducing our current account deficit!”

    Don’t forget about the unemployment checks that will have to be paid, when the price of gasoline forces closure of a good many businesses.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (7:25 pm)

    JB007GD: One question though: are the Volt sales numbers low because Chevy isn’t making enough of them available for purchase, or are they having trouble selling the ones that are available to buy today?

    That is the big question that needs an answer. Hopefully Jeff will take it up.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (7:36 pm)

    pat:
    Unbelievable how hateful some rightwingers are!Puzzling thing to me? Has rep Mike talked to God (as they usually do) and what has he said? I will be curious. Amen

    Thx pdt,
    you made my day!!

    PS I added a plus on that comment


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:21 pm)

    OOps,
    sorry.

    Thx pat.


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    Truman

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:24 pm)

    Just sell 4000 Volts to GE this December – problem solved.

    GE has already said they intend to buy 10,000 Volts in the first couple years – to help spur the EV industry (they sell chargers, wind turbines, etc).

    As long as the Volt ramps up and starts achieving economy of scale in it’s various new components (energy efficient windshield wipers, sound system, lighting, battery subsystem, etc), I really don’t care if fleet sales “prime the pump”.

    Get them out to every single person who wants one, first – after that, sell some bulk fleet sales. The more Volts out there on the road, the better for word of mouth, and the better feedback for the Volt, Next Generation.


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    George S. Bower

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:28 pm)

    It really is too bad that the Volt has to be tangled up in all kinds of political discussions.

    It is very depressing and I refuse to contribute to the discussion when that happens.

    My total interest in the Volt has everything to do with engineering and energy efficiency.

    From an engineering point of view this car is the best car that has come out for decades!!

    GSB


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    George S. Bower

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (8:41 pm)

    Oh, and ps jeff. Good selection on the lead in photo.
    Once again you made the correct choice on color and wheels.
    Hopefully it has a tan leather interior!!


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:30 pm)

    Eco_Turbo: Don’t forget about the unemployment checks that will have to be paid, when the price of gasoline forces closure of a good many businesses.

    Those businesses can do other jobs, such as converting ICE vehicles to electrics, or recycle lead acid batteries.

    Raymond


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    Jeff Cobb

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:41 pm)

    George S. Bower:
    Oh, and ps jeff. Good selection on the lead in photo.
    Once again you made the correct choice on color and wheels.
    Hopefully it has a tan leather interior!!

    Thanks George. We like to feature the the high-performance Volts whenever possible … :)


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    Truman

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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (9:46 pm)

    George S. Bower:
    It really is too bad that the Volt has to be tangled up in all kinds of political discussions.
    It is very depressing and I refuse to contribute to the discussion when that happens.
    My total interest in the Volt has everything to do with engineering and energy efficiency.
    From an engineering point of view this car is the best car that has come out for decades!!
    GSB

    Integrated circuits would never have gotten off the ground if the Government didn’t buy the early ones for applications like missiles – and the Internet would never have started if it weren’t for ARPANET looking into communications networks that could survive devastating nuclear strikes – sorry, but engineering and politics is often “tangled up”.

    I didn’t like when President Bush gave huge tax breaks to dentists and accountants for buying Hummers, Expeditions and other foreign-oil-guzzling dinosaurs – so, for people that don’t like the modest $7,500 tax credit which is helping to launch 21st century vehicles, I say –

    too bad. Now it almost evens out (in a few years).


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (10:31 pm)

    I’m a Replubican and I love the Volt. I just wish I could buy one now, but I have to wait. I do believe that the tax credit for all electric vehicles should be ended. It is ridicules for our government to send $7500 to Japan overtime that a Leaf is sold. At least the credit should be ended for the Leaf.

    So please don’t throw all right wingers in the same pot.


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    Dec 2nd, 2011 (11:35 pm)

    JB007GD: Watching that video was a frustrating experience. One question though: are the Volt sales numbers low because Chevy isn’t making enough of them available for purchase, or are they having trouble selling the ones that are available to buy today?

    The answer to that question is really quite obvious.


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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (10:06 am)

    ************
    * QUESTION: *
    ************

    Does anyone know if the Spark will be using something like the A123 cylindrical solid state cell such as their part number 26650A anywhere in it, and using (how many of) their AMP20 prismatic type format for traction?


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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (10:39 am)

    JWM:
    The fires in the Volt are troubling. The Nissan Leaf has air cooled batteries, the Volt’s are water cooled. This is a huge difference. Heat transfer is much greater by water than air. I believe the factor is about 30. Why does the Volt need water cooling? The battery pack much run hotter, hence the risk for fire. This may be a fatal performance issue.I think the Volt is a work in progress. Gloryfied golf carts will not sell in the northern third of the US. Rich showoffs will drive Volts in the summer. The rest of us cannot be so indulgant. Here in New England, one needs a real venhicle to face our winters. Those skinny tires look like a spin out waiting to happen. Combined with feather weight, two inches of snow will stop a Volt in it’s narrow tracks.

    Either your mind is polluted with bias or you need to be more educated in physics, but I think you need help with both.


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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (10:48 am)

    Tall Pete:
    I understand the importance of ‘freedom of speech’ in the US but the clip I just saw from Fox News is nothing but misinformation delivered with confidence.

    At some point, the senator is saying that you have to finance the cars that stay on the lot. I don’t believe he has to finance any Volt on his lot. He might have one – the demo – and that’s it.

    Electricity 100% from coal ? Misinformation.

    GM owes 20 billion dollars to the government. Again, misinformation.

    The list goes on and on. How bad are people informed in the US ?

    I use to like Fox News, but after a while, it was not too hard to figure out that they are the most unfair and unbalance news network out there. “Fair and balance” is a joke and I think more and more people are figuring that out by themselves.


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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (11:08 am)

    Noel Park,

    Remind us on how HIV is usually contracted. This topic doesn’t really belong here so I’ll just leave it that I not entirely in agreement, for a number of reasons.


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    Jeff Cobb

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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (1:05 pm)

    The Volt is not about politics, and neither is GM-Volt.

    ronr64: I think GM-Volt is making a big mistake by continuing to high light people like Mike Kelly or Neil Cavuto when they bash the Volt. There was a poll here once that indicated that Volt supporters on this site who identified themselves as Republicans were only slightly behind those who called themselves Democrats so support for this tech is bi-partisan, even if the reasons are different. To continue to do so runs the risk of branding Volt and other such vehicles as liberal only and that would be a huge mistake and only serve to slow adoption and integration of these cars into mainstream. My experience has been that neither side of the political spectrum has a monopoly in blowhards and idiots even if though they may have a decided lead on a particular issue.

    Well, I’m sorry if you think we are running the risk of branding the Volt. It does have bi-partisan appeal! Absolutely.

    The Volt has something for everyone – Republican, Democrat, Independent, some where in between … “liberal,” or “conservative,” etc.

    The intent of mentioning critics like Kelly or Cavuto is not political.

    The issue is today we live alongside the Internet which is chock full of information about the Volt.

    Our reporting of negative as well as positive has to do with ethical journalism, even if others do not practice it.

    First off, GM-Volt cannot afford to be seen as living in denial, and that would not be honest reporting.

    If we suppressed news of critics rattling sabers and so forth, we could be seen as biased, possibly living on fantasy island, and that criticism could be seen as valid.

    On the other hand, if we show others who are (dishonestly) reporting their criticism, we believe the person on the street will see through to the whole truth and form his or her own opinions.

    A bolder stance we attempt to take here is to let opponents have their say – while keeping it all in perspective.

    If you want to know GM-Volt’s view, just look above at our latest “Perspective.”

    That is a brief overview of what we believe. We need not be afraid of ill-founded critics with obvious biases and political axes to grind, and so forth.

    We will avoid reacting with overt bias in reverse, and let the truth be discovered in the long run.

    In doing so, we preserve our intellectual honesty, and in retrospect, people can look back and say “look, GM-Volt was unafraid to let its critics speak,” and that is the only plausible position to take.

    When you really have game changing technology, even if everyone has yet to catch on to it, you do not have to worry about what some people in opposition will say.

    The Volt is game changing technology. It will be seen sooner or later.

    By the way, it was Lyle who first sent me the link to Rep. Mike Kelly’s latest airing of his views.

    I showed this comment to him before posting and he said he agreed, but wanted me to add the following explaining why he showed me the latest from Rep. Kelly. What he said echoes what I said above about the Volt being non-partisan –

    “In my mind the Volt has from the very beginning demonstrated a profound ability to offer something for everyone,” Lyle said. “It lets right wing hawks spurn foreign oil dependence and liberal greens reduce their CO2 emissions. Though over the years, especially in light of GM’s bankruptcy, it has come to be used as a political tool by pundits, in the end it’s just a desirable consumer good. Just as the iPhone might be found in the pockets of people in every voting booth, so too should Volts be found in all their garages.”


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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (2:03 pm)

    Steve:
    Noel Park,

    Remind us on how HIV is usually contracted.This topic doesn’t really belong here so I’ll just leave it that I not entirely in agreement, for a number of reasons.

    #78

    Millions of people are dying around the world, many of them innocent children who were infected through their mothers. What difference does it make how it is contracted?


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    evnow

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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (2:20 pm)

    Jeff Cobb:
    On the other hand, if we show others who are (dishonestly) reporting their criticism we believe the person on the street will see through to the whole truth and form their own opinions.

    A bolder stance we attempt to take here is to let opponents have their say – while keeping it all in perspective.

    There is a whole industry out there that specilizes in spinning news and mis-informing the public (Frank Lutz, Fox News etc). So, the best way to handle them is to make point-by-point rebuttals – the same way some sites rebut the global warming denier talking points.

    While there is bi-partisan support for Plugins, Plugins as public policy as under constant attack from various quarters (both left & right) and we need to take them on. Some on the left attack them by bringing up “coal” emissions and on the right by bringing up “free market” or directly linking them to Obama to co-opt republicans.


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    Bonaire

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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (5:05 pm)

    jt:
    ************
    *QUESTION: *
    ************

    Does anyone know if the Spark will be using something like the A123cylindrical solid state cell such as their part number 26650A anywhere in it,and using (how many of) their AMP20 prismatic type format for traction?

    I believe it is about 20 kWh of the 20Ah prismatics. Each 20Ah prismatic is 66Wh so that is 303 cells. The cylindric cells are not as good with the power capacity to weight ratio. Given less need to limit top and bottom SOC, presume 18-19 kWh (out of the 20) are allowed to be used, should be just under 70 miles AER.

    http://gm-volt.com/2011/10/13/news-of-2013-spark-ev-car-comes-right-on-time/


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    Eco_Turbo

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (6:11 pm)

    Jeff Cobb,

    Silly Jeff.


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    George S. Bower

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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (7:23 pm)

    Lyle said:

    ““In my mind the Volt has from the very beginning demonstrated a profound ability to offer something for everyone,” Lyle said. “It lets right wing hawks spurn foreign oil dependence and liberal greens reduce their CO2 emissions. Though over the years, especially in light of GM’s bankruptcy, it has come to be used as a political tool by pundits, in the end it’s just a desirable consumer good. Just as the iPhone might be found in the pockets of people in every voting booth, so too should Volts be found in all their garages.”

    Thx Lyle
    I think of all the things you have said about the Volt, that is the best!!


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    pat

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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (7:52 pm)

    Fox is a propaganda channel nothing more or less. they twist the story or outright lie unfortunately the followers swallow it. How folks accept stuff like that is beyond me other than one has no thinking power to analyse it! I do see more and more folks in US accept bs like that ..(just for clarification I live here too) :) sorry for the rant but it is sad to see this and looks like no chance of any improvement in this area.


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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (9:54 pm)

    Selling Volts At Sundance: Leasing of The Amazing Chevy Volt EREV is the Answer!$399.00 monthly including Security Deposit + 6-7 % state use tax-most states tax on lease payment only not full price! The full $7,500 Captured by Ally Bank/ Us Bank up front to reach this payment on the well equipped Volt. $2899.00 due at signing.36 months, 12,000 miles a year.1 ) No 6-7-8 year contract!2 ) Fed Tax Credit Now!3 ) Most states-Taxes as ‘use tax’ on lease pmt only!4 ) Lease end possible-Gen2 Volt upgrade-like your computer or smart phone!5 ) bundled with warranty, Onstar entire time!Driving 30-45 miles a day-$30-$40 cost to charge vs $160.00 to $210.00 gas costs per month.Subtract gas not bought from lease payment = Net Cost To Drive!Source: Chevrolet.comThe Amazing Chevy Volt EREV-Facts GuyWaiting for roll out of Dow Powerhouse Solar Shingles and paying down new high efficency furnace. Wating for 1st Cyber Grey Allocation/ Spring 2012!!gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?9525-The-Volt-White-Paper

    Or, you could lease a Corolla for $180/month, $2499 down, and have money left over to buy fuel for 24,000 miles of driving every year. Of course, if you drive less, you get to keep the savings. In fact, the insurance and tabs will be less with the Corolla… more savings.

    Let’s stop pretending the Volt saves money, OK? Or is it your contention that the Volt is the best car for people who are bad at math?


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    Ted in Fort Myers

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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (10:28 pm)

    Just got back from a cross country trip in Volt 2011 #1506 of about 6700 miles and averaged 40 MPG with some opportunity Charging. What a great car. 80 MPH in West Texas, NM, and 75 in Arizona.
    Feel like being pampered? Drive cross country in a Volt. When you are done drive it back and forth to work completely gas free.

    Totally and Completely Customer Satisfied.

    Take Care, TED


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    Ted in Fort Myers

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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (10:31 pm)

    Char4lie you really must compare apples and oranges? The Corolla is no Volt….Not even close.

    Take Care, TED


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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (11:44 pm)

    Charlie H: The answer to that question is really quite obvious.

    Lets pretend I still don’t know. Whats the answer?


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    Bad Leasing Terms

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    Dec 3rd, 2011 (11:45 pm)

    It’s a flat out lie on how the $7500 is used on the Volt lease. It is NOT being applied upfront. Don’t trust the car salesperson’s words. It’s being applied as a ballooned residual value. What does that mean? Well, as reported in the forum, those who totaled the vehicle got much less from insurance company in order to repay the vehicle. More importantly, the vehicle actually worth something like $18K after 3 yrs / 36K mi, but to buy it, one must pay $25K! I am not sure if GAP insurance will protect the lessee in this case…

    Oh, this also means that, even if YOU decide to buy the vehicle after 3 years, you don’t get to enjoy the $7500; Ally/US Bank do. They are the 1st owner of the vehicle technically.

    So far, only Nissan use the $7500 upfront as a cap cost reduction. Nissan applies that $7500 as cap cost, with no balloon residual value, and this means that YOU, the lessee, actually enjoys the $7500, not Nissan. Now THAT’S AMAZING!


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (12:42 am)

    Ted in Fort Myers: Char4lie you really must compare apples and oranges? The Corolla is no Volt….Not even close.Take Care, TED

    Right. The Corolla seats 5.


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (12:46 am)

    JB007GD: Lets pretend I still don’t know. Whats the answer?

    Let’s see… It is being discounted. The gap between the cumulative number of Volts produced and Volts sold is still growing dramatically every month. Chevy decreased production (two months running) and the number of unsold Volts still increased. The nearby dealer with 6 on his lot on Nov 1 still has the same 6 on his lot on December 1.

    Gee… I don’t know. What do you think?


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (3:30 am)

    hmm Charlie H you dont have to buy Volt. that is ok but others are right you cant compare Corrola with Volt. Not even close. suggest you should go to Corrola forum and write there. No? Rather than ranting here cuz you dont make sense. Do you work for that dealership in PA run by that idiot R representative? Just curious


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    Ted in Fort Myers

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    Dec 4th, 2011 (7:47 am)

    Compare to any other car in the world that the traction motor lasts 600,000 miles. There are none Charlie. I plan on keeping my Volt for greater than five years….nuf said.

    Take Care, TED


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    Ted in Fort Myers

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    Dec 4th, 2011 (7:53 am)

    The guy with six Volts on the lot? See how many he has already sold or better yet ask how much he is charging over MSRP. The guys charging a premium I have found are sitting on their cars. And they are the only ones. My dealer friend in Fort Myers said he could eqasily sell the the ones he has comming and a dozen more just like it. For MSRP.

    Take Care,
    TED


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (8:04 am)

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    Dec 4th, 2011 (10:35 am)

    Jeff Cobb,

    Jeff at #79,

    That post is as perfect as it gets regarding letting (if not making sure) everyone has their say.
    Intelligently responding to callous misconceptions by those who believe they are “leaders” who also believe they speak for anyone else is the most important thing that is offered here.
    Your consistency and technical accuracy always win. That’s the great thing about honesty and attending to the truth as diligently as you always do. Thanks.


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (10:37 am)

    Bonaire,

    Hi Bonaire,

    Thank you for responding to my questions so thoroughly.
    These advancements are breathtaking, are they not?


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (11:14 am)

    One point does make sense on selling Volt to the rental companies! even if the margin is lower at this point GM should get the VOLT out to them! Plus it will help rental folks to give VOLt a try and see the benefits if this new technology. It will act as free demonstration unit for GM and will have the intended effect needed to get VOLT sales up.
    At this point it seems to me that VOLT triumph prius hands down. The cost differential is so small with all the benefits of new technology. A friend of mine who own 3 years old prius says he cant do any maintenance himself – it is so tight under the hood that he has to get everything done by the dealer. well battery + Ice engine under the hood things do get very tight.


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    Charlie H

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    Dec 4th, 2011 (1:04 pm)

    Ted in Fort Myers: The guy with six Volts on the lot? See how many he has already sold or better yet ask how much he is charging over MSRP. … My dealer friend in Fort Myers said he could eqasily sell the the ones he has comming and a dozen more just like it. For MSRP.

    Nope. Straight MSRP. They did sell a few, probably also at straight MSRP, but the rest have languished.

    Dealers post here with discounts. Why don’t they just post availability at MSRP? This is where many Volt intenders hang out, anyway, so why offer a discount?

    You didn’t think before you posted the qeustion, anyway. After all, why would a dealer charge over MSRP and watch the vehicles sit there? They’ll charge a premium if they can move the car right away at a premium but if it sits, the price comes down. Volume gets allocation on the Volt and other hot cars.

    Naturally, I trust your dealer friend, I’m sure he wouldn’t shade the truth in any way. Ohhh, noooo.

    And the numbers don’t lie… Availability is going up very, very fast. Sales are not. GM didn’t decrease production because they sell too fast, they decreased production because they already have plenty on hand. GM wants a win in this space and wouldn’t decrease production if hitting the 10K mark was at all a possibility. Missing it is a PR black eye.

    Look for December sales to check in somewhere near 1100. Less wouldn’t surprise me.

    Draw your own chart of the last 12 months of production and sales. Look at vehicles offered and compare to Leaf sales and offers.

    It’s quite clear, a $40K compact car does not sell. You might think it’s something special but the public compares it to a Corolla and finds it wanting.


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (1:29 pm)

    pat: One point does make sense on selling Volt to the rental companies! even if the margin is lower at this point GM should get the VOLT out to them! Plus it will help rental folks to give VOLt a try and see the benefits if this new technology. It will act as free demonstration unit for GM and will have the intended effect needed to get VOLT sales up.

    There’s a problem with rental Volts… charge time. If a regular ICE (or a Prius or a Ford Fusion hybrid), it can be checked, cleaned, fully fueled and turned around in 20 minutes. A car that’s primarily EV needs at least a few hours to recharge.

    And what would the advantage be to GM of comapnies renting out Volts without full charge? If the rental company refuels it but doesn’t have time for a charge and gives it to a customer without a depleted battery, the customer will fill the tank before he returns it and come away from the experience wondering what the big deal is. A Volt rented out with a discharged battery would cost a customer more in fuel to operate than a far cheaper Prius and maybe more than a Corolla, Fiesta, Focus or Cruze Eco.

    And to support them, rental companies really need chargers everywhere that the car might be returned, not just the original location. It is not too uncommon for people to pick up a car in one city and return it at another or another location in the same metro area. So, with every rental Volt comes a requirement to put in a lot of charge points, which is a significant capital expense.


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (2:49 pm)

    This may be of interest to those in the Detroit metro area. Most everyone in the area knows of the vacant 4.2 million sq-ft Ford plant in Wixom (yeah that’s right, 4.2 million). Well, it looks like there’s more promise of a lithium Ion battery maker moving in and creating hundreds of jobs. We’ll see.

    Here’s a few links:
    From Dec 1
    http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20111201/FREE/111209995
    From Nov 8
    http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20111108/STAFFBLOG08/111109910
    the battery company
    http://www.dowkokam.com/tech-cells.htm


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (3:01 pm)

    Charlie,

    If rental companies got any Volts, the daily rental could easily be twice the maximum daily rental that they’d charge for anything else. (There might even be a waiting list.) Why? Because, for example, your example, that the first people to go rent one would be GM competitors, and those competitors would be deeply impressed.

    It does not seem that you have had the opportunity to even get a ride in a Volt. If you have not, I hope that you would go ahead and ask to drive a demo unit at a local dealer. I think that you would have a change of view, or at least your views would be ameliorated a lot to be a lot less unfavorable.

    Just go to a Chevrolet dealer and say; “I don’t think I’m ready to buy today, but can I get a sales rep to go along with me on a Volt test drive?” It is always an easygoing atmosphere there.

    I say all this because I was able to drive one once a year and a half ago, just once around a mall parking lot for about 1,500 feet only. That astonishing impression of that one extremely short drive never gets any less astonishing over all this time. Not one bit less astonishing.

    Thank you for considering my suggestion.


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (4:17 pm)

    Charlie H:And the numbers don’t lie… Availability is going up very, very fast. Sales are not

    .
    Yes – we can no longer conclude that the sale of Volts is supply constrained.


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    Charlie H

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    Dec 4th, 2011 (4:48 pm)

    jt: Charlie,If rental companies got any Volts, the daily rental could easily be twice the maximum daily rental that they’d charge for anything else. (There might even be a waiting list.) Why? Because, for example, your example, that the first people to go rent one would be GM competitors, and those competitors would be deeply impressed.It does not seem that you have had the opportunity to even get a ride in a Volt. If you have not, I hope that you would go ahead and ask to drive a demo unit at a local dealer. I think that you would have a change of view, or at least your views would be ameliorated a lot to be a lot less unfavorable.Just go to a Chevrolet dealer and say; “I don’t think I’m ready to buy today, but can I get a sales rep to go along with me on a Volt test drive?” It is always an easygoing atmosphere there.I say all this because I was able to drive one once a year and a half ago, just once around a mall parking lot for about 1,500 feet only. That astonishing impression of that one extremely short drive never gets any less astonishing over all this time. Not one bit less astonishing.Thank you for considering my suggestion.

    Why would anyone go rent a Volt for double the daily rate merely to try it out (and, if they don’t like it, they’re out a bunch of money for nothing) when, according to you, it’s easy to try out a Volt at a Chevy dealer? After someone tries out a Volt at a Chevy dealer, they might be interested in a couple days’ rental to be sure they can live with it before comitting to a purchase but this is rarely the case for other cars and unlikely to be common for the Volt.

    And “GM competitors” (by this, I presume you mean people that own non-GM cars) who aren’t drooling for an EV aren’t going to go for this, either. They might accept a Volt, for the same daily rental fee as a regular car, but they aren’t going to pay extra to try out a GM car or an EV unless they’re already into EVs (in which case, they’ve been to the Chevy dealer for the test-drive).

    Get your head out of the echo chamber. Everybody here is shouting “EV! EV! EV! Volt! GM akhbar!” but the rest of the world looks at the price, the number of seats, the limited trunk space, remembers GM’s reputation and walks.

    What it will take to sell this car is some combination of the following:
    - A price cut (biggest help)
    - A big, long-term increase in the price of fuel (also a big help but a big increase in fuel prices will hurt the economy, which will have an adverse effect on sales).
    - A big improvement in the car itself in some practical way (more space, far better Dead Battery Fuel Economy).


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (5:01 pm)

    Ted in Fort Myers: Compare to any other car in the world that the traction motor lasts 600,000 miles. There are none Charlie. I plan on keeping my Volt for greater than five years….nuf said.Take Care, TED

    What proof do you have that the traction motor will last 600,000 miles? And if it does… so what?How many vehicles were junked last year because the engine seized?

    The answer is “very few.” Cars get junked because they run into a failure that will cost more than the vehicle is worth to fix.

    I wonder what it costs to replace a Volt heater core? Must one pull the engine to get to it? Do you think that’s a foolish question? You shouldn’t. A friend of mine bought a ’79-ish Chevy Monza with V8 engine. To replace the two rearmost sparkplugs, the engine had to be pulled. When he took it in for a tuneup and learned this, he decided that the engine ran well enough on 6 cylinders.

    What will it take to get at the power steering assembly? How about the A/C compressor? How long will the window motors last? The electric radiator fan? The battery cooling pump? The fuel pump? Suppose a rock hits the radiator? And if any or all of these things happen on the other side of the 8 year battery warranty expiration, how will people feel about doing an expensive repair to keep the car? What will they do when they hit an expensive repair on the far side of warranty expiration and the battery capacity has fallen off by 20 or 30%?


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (6:19 pm)

    Charlie,

    You presume way too much that is completely wrong. You do not know how the car works even.
    The price is going to come down in its own time with Gen 2/3, so, the lower production numbers are really a reflection of future advancements.
    The car has been designed and proven in record time with outstanding quality, which I doubt you have an open mind to perceive if even someone offered to let you drive theirs. Your opinions are nothing but a false-pearl casting contest. When kindness and courtesy are offered to you, you kick them in the teeth. Go away.


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (6:53 pm)

    Very creative ideas, Barry252, that you posted on the front page regarding your charging of your Volt. Have you considered a ten gauge RV extension cord? Although they are heavier, still, it may be just enough to get the nine amps through the one hundred or so feet that you need.

    BTW, I was just reading on a site called “Clean Technica”, that wind energy is becoming so cheap, that it has now occasionally dropped the wholesale price of grid electricity, at some periods of time. to 0.00 cents. Coal fired power plants have to bid into the system at 0.00 cents so as to keep a load on their generators, since coal can not be throttled down.

    Also, over at A123, they are making huge battery arrays for wind generation to transition excess power into a huge pack, then offer a more shallow ramp slope for natural gas generation to come on line (instead of having coal fired plants in the first place). Can you imagine getting your overnight charge for nearly nothing in the not too distant future in exchange for helping out the grid at peak times for a few seconds at a time (and having the battery at full charge in the morning) ?
    Reading between the lines of what I am saying here, the next five to ten years will be really exciting for electrical propulsion.


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    Price of Volt

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    Dec 4th, 2011 (7:16 pm)

    This I got to laugh!

    “The price is going to come down in its own time with Gen 2/3…”

    Not sure how mature this person is, “jt,” when s/he wrote it.

    Gen 2 won’t be out until 2015, and that’s the soonest!

    Gen 3 won’t be out until…? 2020?

    Funny thing is, with technology, Voltage technology is most likely obsolete, or toward that side, with advancement in battery / range (something that Volt is also banking on). Since new technology will be implemented for every new generation, chances are, price will go UP, not down. Otherwise, who will buy the new model, when it’s just another “minor enhancement” of the previous gen?


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (7:23 pm)

    Watch out, Charlie. Your comments against the Volt means that you are due for a petroleum enema, too!


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (7:29 pm)

    From the very simple conflicts within his own statements, he has obstructive sleep apnea/oxygen deprivation overnight . (Seriously!/Not kidding.) There is something called an “Oximeter” that costs about fifty bucks. You can study your oxygen deficit in a few seconds per event. Most sufferers never know they have this condition. But your seriously weak arguments (I’m not being overly critical), Charlie, clearly indicate this. Ninety five percent blood oxygen saturation is minimum. (There is “Afrin 12 Hour” Pump spray that’s really miraculous for OSA. Get the one in the purple box that says “extra moisturizing”.)

    (The only things he has left out are Dorothy’s “Lions! and tigers! and bears! Oh my!”)


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (8:21 pm)

    JWM: Those skinny tires look like a spin out waiting to happen. Combined with feather weight, two inches of snow will stop a Volt in it’s narrow tracks.

    Well, actually, narrow tires are better than wide tires in deep snow. Narrow tires tend to cut throught he heavy snow, where wide tires tend to push it and cause it to pile up in front until it can no longer get though it…

    But, believe what you want. I, for one, like getting 210 miles per gallon, and not sending our cash overseas for oil.


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (8:35 pm)

    For astrand1 on the front page.
    And, also for the GM design teams.

    Sorry that you had the deer run in front of your Volt. Glad to know that you and your wife are ok.

    There are these ultrasonic whistles that can be affixed to the lower fascia of the Volt that supposedly deer can hear from a great distance away. They are used in rural areas and even by suburban auto owners to alert deer that something is coming their way so that they don’t as likely choose to move your way as you get closer to them. This may be helpful and very inexpensive to add to all Volts.


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (10:31 pm)

    jt: Charlie,You presume way too much that is completely wrong. You do not know how the car works even.The price is going to come down in its own time with Gen 2/3, so, the lower production numbers are really a reflection of future advancements.The car has been designed and proven in record time with outstanding quality, which I doubt you have an open mind to perceive if even someone offered to let you drive theirs. Your opinions are nothing but a false-pearl casting contest. When kindness and courtesy are offered to you, you kick them in the teeth. Go away.

    Excuse me? I know exactly how the car works. I even expected it would have an ICE-power-direct-to-wheels mode in 2009 when I saw the transaxle casing.

    “Lower production numbers are really a reflection of future advancements.”

    That’s priceless. I’m going to suggest our CEO use it on his next conference call. He’ll love it. Wall Street will love it.

    Not!

    Lower production numbers are really a reflection of they’re not selling anywhere near expectations. Of course in the face of low sales, GM usually makes zillions of cars, anyway, and lets them stack up (google GM channel stuffing for a recent article on that). It’s a sign of complete loss of hope when they actually decrease production.


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (10:35 pm)

    JT,

    It’s also painfully obvious that you don’t understand “the front page” of the website. Those items you have been responding to are posts in the forum and the people with a clue respond to them in the forum.

    Click the forum link near the banner for enlightenment.


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    Dec 4th, 2011 (10:37 pm)

    jt: From the very simple conflicts within his own statements,

    Thank you, Dr. JT for your misdiagnosis.

    I find it odd that my argument, essentially, “why would people pay for something they can get for free” would be a sign of oxygen deprivation. I would have thought it was common sense.


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    Dec 5th, 2011 (6:46 am)

    Oxygen deprivation also can lead to psychosis. (Ahem). You should get all that checked out as soon as possible.