As many of you know, yesterday Ford Motor Co. began accepting online orders for its 2012 Focus Electric, which was first unveiled a year ago in Las Vegas.
The company is coming in with a limited and partially delayed launch a year or more after Nissan, which has has sold over 8,000 of its (now) $35,200 all-electric Leafs in the U.S. alone.
The plug-in Focus will cost a bit more, starting at $39,995, and Ford – which quietly delayed release dates to 17 initial markets till next spring, then denied it – says buyers can “virtually build and price one” at its dedicated Web site.
Get ready world. Here comes Ford’s electric car.
Focus Electric customers will be eligible for the same subsidies available for the Leaf, Volt or similar advanced-tech vehicles. These include a federal tax credit of $7,500, and state and local incentives, where applicable.
Despite coming later to the market, Ford’s announcement naturally kept to the time-honored tradition of accentuating the positive, though perhaps not unjustifiably so.
“Today is an historic day, as Ford opens up the order banks for the company’s first full production, all-electric passenger vehicle – the Focus Electric,” said Chad D’Arcy, Focus Electric Marketing Manager, Ford Motor Company yesterday. “The all-new Focus Electric is an important part of Ford’s overall strategy, bringing still another option to customers who want a car that is fun-to-drive, easy to own and fully electric.”
According to a statement by Ford:
Focus Electric comes standard with: MyFord Touch with 8-inch touchscreen; two driver-configurable 4.2-inch color LCD displays in cluster for unique EV driving screens; MyFord™ Mobile App (for remotely monitoring and scheduling battery charging with owners’ smartphone as well as remote start); HID Headlamps; 17-inch aluminum wheels, ambient lighting, seats made from 100-percent recycled material; Rear Camera with Rear Parking Sensor; Intelligent Access with Push-Button Start; MyKey®; voice-activated Navigation System; Particulate Air Filter; hands-free SYNC® Bluetooth telephone connectivity with Traffic, Direction and Information Services; electronic traction control; Sony®-Branded audio with nine speakers; SIRIUS® Satellite Radio and HD Radio™.
The only options on the thoroughly appointed Focus Electrics are leather seats and two paint colors.
“Ford believes driving electric doesn’t mean consumers should have to sacrifice on driving experience or vehicle quality,” said D’Arcy. “The Focus Electric comes with more standard features than any other comparable all-electric vehicle.”
Ford is also equipping the vehicle with an on-board 6.6-kilowatt charger compatible with 240-volt fast charging. But when plugged into 120-volt current, Ford says it takes 18-20 hours to recharge the 23 kilowatt battery.
A $999 home-installed charger utilizing 240-volts can zap its 23-kwh LG Chem batteries back to full charge in around three to four hours. This is currently about half the time it takes for a Leaf with a 3.3-kilowatt on-board charger.
So, if you get a Focus EV, you’ll probably want to order the fast charger at the same time.
The 3,691-pound vehicle weighs a little more than the gasoline version. Its battery pack is liquid heated/cooled and drives the 123-horsepower, 181-pound-feet torque motor through its front wheels.
Range is said to be around 100 miles.
Will it sell?
Of course it will, the question is how fast and how soon will Ford – and GM for that matter – get costs down and pass the savings onto the consumer?
We all know energy and emission issues are driving this nascent technology, but even some auto executives have been reluctant to dive in with greater commitment.
Speaking as one consumer, GM-Volt reader Tom W laments that prices are a bit out of reach for his budget.
“My point in short, is the comparable ICE to the EV/EREV. You can add $10,000 for oil savings. You can add $7,500 for the federal tax credit,” Tom said of the Ford. “So that nets to $17,500 off the price for now and after the tax credit is gone, it’s just $10,000 off.”
As much as he loves them, even with financing options, cars like the Volt, Leaf, and Focus EV would be hard for him to justify.
“It’s easy to finance a car knowing you are paying your energy costs in your monthly payments, he said. “But there is a point you can’t go past unless you have lots of money to burn. For a Volt, its probably about $36,000 with the tax credit. For the Leaf and Focus EV its really more like $33,000. These cars are just out of reach of those that have to justify their costs.”
Some people believe advanced-tech vehicles could sell for less if a run for the mainstream end zone was made. Economies of scale would allow automakers to price them lower and make a profit, or so the thinking goes.
All in due time, right? Until then, Tom says he follows technology and trends, and his ideal would be to afford a Volt.
“I appreciate the cause,” he said. “I just wish I could buy a Volt and support the cause that way.”
As for the new Focus Electric, in August we reported the company subtly changed info in its press release to say that only California and New York would be getting the car this year.
The car’s other launch markets for spring 2012 include: Atlanta, Austin and Houston, Texas; Boston, Chicago, Denver, Detroit, Orlando, Fla., Phoenix and Tucson, Ariz.; Portland, Ore.; Raleigh Durham, N.C.; Richmond, Va., Seattle, and Washington, D.C.
FoMoCo, Wall Street Journal, LeftLane News.
This entry was posted on Thursday, November 3rd, 2011 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (7:02 am)A coleague brought a rental Focus to work yesterday. Man that car is huge compared to the old Focus. Must be an Edge with different bodywork. Should be plenty of room for batteries. Too bad the hybrid version will most likely have a Synergy drive system.
+17
Nov 3rd, 2011 (7:04 am)I think GM/Chevy is well positioned for this. The Volt is priced like the Focus, but can “go farther” and the arrival of the EV Spark will allow GM to position a pure electric car at a price point below any of the other pure EVs.
+15
Nov 3rd, 2011 (7:12 am)Great to see another US made option. Welcome Focus EV, come and join the party, NPNS.
“As for the new Focus Electric, in August we reported the company subtly changed info in its press release to say that only California and New York would be getting the car this year.” As far as changing the date and saying you didn’t, why would you do that? Not an auspicious way to kick-off the campaign for the Focus marketing staff.
Lots of complaints about the price, but with so much of the development of the drive train outsourced, Ford does not have a lot of flexibility there…yet. Certainly seems to either vindicate the Volts pricing, or vilify the cost structures encouraged by the tax credit policy, whichever side of the fence seems to make the most sense to this point.
It is great to see the technology proliferating. The beginnings of an electrified vehicle ecosystem are possible just a little ways down the road. More people will see electric driving is possible and be able to see themselves using little or no gas, getting great torque from 0 RPM, and adding to that electrified ecosystem one car purchase at a time. Proliferation will grow acceptance. Acceptance will increase volume. And volume will drive down prices.
+14
Nov 3rd, 2011 (7:14 am)If Jay Leno is buying one for his collection (he has several EVs, including the Detroit Electric and the Chevy Volt), then it is a great design. I see that Ford did its homework and provided the Focus EV a more powerful 6.6 KW charger, so it is already ahead of Nissan’s Leaf. It has five seats so it is ahead of the Volt. Its price range is in between the Leaf and the Volt, so it should sell well.
I am a GM fan and customer, but I did have a 1980 Ford Mustang for ten years, and I passed it on to my nephew. I am extremely pleased than another American EV has entered the market, which is great for increasing the EV presence and reducing oil dependency. Now I would like to see how Ford presents the Focus EV to America in its ads. What will Consumer Reports say now?
I wish Ford all the success it deserves.
Raymond
+9
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:03 am)If you build a superior product, it will sell.
Why is this so complicated?
And to Tom W’s comments:
Yes, this technology is expensive right now. And even though you may really want it, if it is in your best financial interest to wait for further reductions in cost, then wait! The costs will come down, and the vehicles will only get better.
C-5277 – Ordered 06-28-2011 – Produced 09-26-2011 – Purchased 10-04-2011
+7
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:05 am)Has Ford said who makes the battery pack? Is it also LG Chem?
Given the shared assembly line, no genset and so on – the price is too high. Ford should be going agressively after the Leaf and pricing it above the Leaf (with more standard features?) is not very aggressive. Along with the limited release, they won’t be a solid BEV player until the 2013 calendar year.
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:07 am)Ford will have to pay their dues like Toyota and Honda to get a good CR report, if you know what I mean.
+8
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:08 am)“Focus Electric comes standard with: MyFord Touch with 8-inch touchscreen; two driver-configurable 4.2-inch color LCD displays in cluster for unique EV driving screens; MyFord™ Mobile App (for remotely monitoring and scheduling battery charging with owners’ smartphone as well as remote start); HID Headlamps; 17-inch aluminum wheels, ambient lighting, seats made from 100-percent recycled material; Rear Camera with Rear Parking Sensor; Intelligent Access with Push-Button Start; MyKey®; voice-activated Navigation System; Particulate Air Filter; hands-free SYNC® Bluetooth telephone connectivity with Traffic, Direction and Information Services; electronic traction control; Sony®-Branded audio with nine speakers; SIRIUS® Satellite Radio and HD Radio™.”
I would pass on all the upgrades above and get the car if it was 33K before rebates. Then I’d have my car for work and around town. Maybe in a year I can get a Volt for 36K before rebates. But I’d really like to buy by August 2012, after that I start losing my Drivers Edge Rewards points.
Nice Article Jeff!
+4
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:20 am)$39,000 price, compact size, 70-75 mile real world range
Ford has nailed the demographic that has an average commute of 50-70 miles but never requires more from their car (except for all those with workplace and home level II charging that could daily drive to 140 miles) and can appreciate the extra expense for this EV beyond it’s gas powered sibling plus operating cost savings and is satisfied with a Focas class vehicle. Other buyers must have GM (similarly price Volt) and Nissan ($4000 cheaper Leaf) banned from their potential car lists.
Not still born but the Mother of all runts for sure. Ford is clearly content with giving the appearance of addressing the EV market without actually risking much in the effort, at least with their “available” offerings Focus EV and Transit Connect EV.
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:23 am)Yes the batteries are LG Chem on the Focus.
Yes these companies aren’t pricing the cars to sell. They all want sales to go slowly while they line up their supply chain and enjoy selling the vehicles at far more than the components cost (not fair to include research costs at such low levels of production). Also Note Ford has the Transit Connect and other products coming up that will count against their 200,000. So even though they are behind GM and Nissan, they also have to nurse using up their 200,000 to early.
Nissan is still over a year away from their plant in Tennessee coming up to speed. I hope 2013 might be the year these companies are ready to bring the costs down – which includes more production (economies of scale) and models with less bells and whistles.
Yes I might just have to keep waiting – btw I am driving 5 speed focus 2007. So I have cheap transportation with good fuel economy now – But I want to drive 100% without oil except when I go out of town. Also 8 of last 9 vehicles purchase new or leased between my wife and myself have been Fords. So here is the Volt that can bring a customer who has never bought a GM product. Of course the way things are going I might buy a Spark.
+8
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:26 am)There are a lot of Ford fans out there, and this vehicle will sell very well. Most non-Ford fans will opt for the LEAF or the Volt as both have significantly more cargo space, the LEAF is significantly cheaper, and the Volt is a class above with the range extender. It will be interesting to see if they get a lot of customers trading in other brands like GM and Nissan are experiencing.
As I understand it, the electrics were designed by Magna, and so I assume Magna holds the IP. Also if I am correct, the apps were contracted out to Microsoft. This whole approach is opposite to GM and Nissan. This has kept Ford’s investment to a minimum. But this will make it difficult for Ford to bring down the price. I have also read that Ford does not plan to produce more than 20k/year, probably a reasonable estimate and assures that all Ford EVs will still qualify for the Federal tax rebate long after it runs out for GM and Nissan.
I don’t think Ford is serious about EVs as GM and Nissan are, they just want the green cred.
+4
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:33 am)If Ford uses Microsoft products in the Focus EV, I just hope that the buyers will never see a BSOD (Windows users know well what the BSOD is). Rebooting your EV while on the road is extremely dangerous!
Raymond
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:37 am)Blue Screen Of Death, good one! Magna would have written the control software for the motor, Microsoft just for the apps “My Ford” etc, and therefore not critical to the operation of the vehicle.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:40 am)COST, COST ,COST. Another example of a great car with too high a price.
I would love to have a plugin hybrid or an all electric car. BUT… my rational side will not allow me to pay too high a price for what the vehicle delivers. (even with a government rebate)
So of these 3 cars the Nissan becomes the best price, the Volt is number 2 with the Focus as number 3.
I had hoped the Ford CMAX Energi would be a reasonable price when it comes out. But with the Focus so high I now have my doubts.
At this point the best option available for a rational buyer is still the Prius.
Best MPG and other features at the better price.
But…. I will remain optimistic.
+8
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:47 am)Not fair to say ‘rational’ buyer. You mean to say ‘cost conscious’ buyer.
For those that are willing to pay a little more than the car delivers in transportation value, they can choose the car that fits their driving needs etc.
Its just frustrating waiting as these cars are just out of reach of ‘cost conscious’ buyers, and having to listen to the Neil Cavuto’s of the world.
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:04 am)Every time I post, i’m seeing the Mitsubishi I Advertisement above where I’m typing. Is that an Omen? That would be a bitter pill for me to have to settle for driving around in that thing to avoid using oil.
Remember Ford, Nissan and GM are all doing the same thing. They are pricing these vehicles so they sell slowly so they can gradually ramp up production. They don’t want to price them so there are 200,000 order out there that they can’t fill and would use up the tax credits in short order. The way the tax credit is structured FORCES these companies to move slowly so they can lower costs slowly and be able to still compete when the tax credits are gone.
Each of these companies will easily reach their sales target ramp-up plan simply by lowering their cost as needed. They would be stupid to sell the cars at a price that would create more demand then they are prepared to meet – as they have to eye being competitive when the tax credit runs out.
+24
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:09 am)I’ve said here before that I like Ford a lot as a company. They’ve done a number things right over the last few years and deserve the credit they have received IMO. Having said that, I don’t include the Focus EV in the “things done right” column however. In fact, I will go further to say that I think Ford’s whole approach to the plug-in market is not what it should be. First of all, when you are late to the party, you better have a great present, or you might as well not show up. The Focus EV is nice, but there is no new ground broken here. I mean if it had say a 150 mile range instead of 100, that could be something to boast about, but it doesn’t. If it was a few thousand cheaper than a Leaf, it could compete, but it’s not. All of this and it’s also 2 years behind Nissan and GM in coming to market. I just got to wonder where their heads are?
When the Volt’s price was originally announced here, does anyone else remember the vast weeping and gnashing of teeth that occurred over that? GM’s name was being burned in effigy here and many were saying how it would get bowled over in no time by the competitors. Well, here we are, and here’s what we have:
1. Nissan selling a range limited car for only a few thousand dollars less.
2. Toyota arriving finally sometime in 2012 with a Plug-in Prius for only a little less money and considerably less range.
3. Ford Focus EV for the same money as the Volt and range limited to 100 miles.
4. Tesla model S in the $60 – $80,000 range, (maybe)
5. Mitsubishi i, cheapest EV but 100 mile range and small as a lunch box.
In light of the above, GM is looking smarter by the day IMO.
+4
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:25 am)Tom W.,
In a few years you’ll have the option to buy a used EV. Isn’t that the place for us cost conscious folks?
IF batts ever improve, you might rehab a used EV to better than new?!
Peace be with you, I’m waiting too.
+6
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:27 am)IMO definitely looks nicer than the Leaf.
If Ford matched the Leaf price it would kill Leaf sales or more likely start a price war which they would end up losing to Nissan.
“We all know energy and emission issues are driving this nascent technology”….
I thought it was the foreign oil trade deficit driving the push to alternative fuel vehicles.
Keep the money in your countries; buy EV’s and EREV’s.
NPNS!
Volt#671
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:28 am)Tom W,
OK…. “Cost Conscious” works for me.
The new tech does not deliver enough improvement for the price.
+4
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:35 am)That does make for an interesting situation. A used-car market of vehicles we’ve never seen before – BEVs and EVERs. A new battery pack would be all that is needed to have a fresh-powerplant since the Electric Motor should have a much longer life than the battery pack (today’s battery technology). I’m looking forward to the day we have an equal # of EV’s on the road as Priuses (about 1MM+). Once we get 1MM, it’ll be “greenstream” (mainstream green technology).
+12
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:40 am)“Focus Electric customers will be eligible for the same subsidies available for the Leaf, Volt or similar advanced-tech vehicles. These include a federal tax credit of $7,500″
——————–
It will be interesting to hear the responses from the anti-GM-bailout crowd who insists “Ford took no government money”, and giving tax breaks to Volt buyers is an atrocity.
I can hear it now, “Oh Ford has an EV now? Well they are a true American company and I guess giving $7500 isn’t such a bad idea.”
+5
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:49 am)when are they going to make an EV without all that electronic crap ? probably $5000 worth if not more.why can’t we do like we did awhile back and buy a with options we want or don’t want ?
what would be the cost of the prius,volt,leaf,or focus EV, if they made a basic car with no options.
l’ll bet you would still sell a lot of them because there are a lot of people out there that would buy
a stripped down basic car if the price was right.just thinking
+13
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:50 am)Neutron
Your rational mind is not letting you see the bigger picture. Unless you drive over 75 miles per day the cost of operation is much higher even with a plug-in Prius. The Volt pays for the difference between itself and a comparable sized gas car rather quickly and I plan on keeping my 2011 Volt for several hundred thousand miles and it will completely pay for itself. All the while not using any gas for my daily drives.
Don’t forget the minimal maintenance. Oil changes every 2 years. Brakes life of the car. Tune up life of the car.
I have put on over 13,000 miles already and 10,700 have been EV miles at $.02 per mile. I never have to drive to a gas station except when I travel out of town. My car is always full when I go to use it. I would pay the Volt price even if there were no rebates not because I am wealthy (I am not) but because I cannot afford not to.
Take Care, TED
+9
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:51 am)You might be able to say this for your situation, but definately cannot speak for us all.
+17
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:54 am)I’m cost concious, but plan to buy a Volt. I also commute less than 40miles/day, have cheap electricity and expensive gas where I live, and I keep my cars for 10 years or more.
+6
Nov 3rd, 2011 (9:57 am)I hear ya, but at least they got to market. (looks at Chrysler/Honda/Suburu/Volkswagon/BMW/Audi/Mazda/etc.. etc.)
+3
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:05 am)I’m waiting for the first Youtube video of a drag race between a Nissan Leaf and a Ford Focus EV. The performance data will be interesting. I noticed on the Ford site Jeff linked that they show a 75% regenerative braking recapture of energy. Didn’t GM just say during last Friday’s webchat, at best you can get 50% back? Even that number impressed me, because I thought it was more like 25~35% typically.
+4
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:15 am)Fisker, Ford, GM, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Tesla all selling cars eligible for 7,500 tax credit.
I’m really beginning to think the slow rollout is Government mandated. If they priced these cars 28 to 30K, they would easily sell 200K in 2 years. Four car makers selling 200K – 7,500 credit , that’s 9 billion.
If Audi, BMW, Chrysler, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar, Mercedes, Porsche, Toyota all start selling a 7,500 credit eligible cars that’s another 13.5 billion. Whether you agree or not it’s logical to assume the credit will not exist long enough for all manufactures to take advantage of it. That’s why being fearful of burning through the 200,000 car limit to soon should not be an issue. Early EV/EREV Manufacturers should get the credits as quickly as possible and while they last.
NPNS!
Volt#671
+3
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:24 am)Slow rollout also helps the battery manufacturers ramp-up. I don’t think these companies can supply the high # of battery systems (clean manufacture, high degree of testing) that a low priced EV would demand of them. You don’t want bad battery systems causing an early black-eye to the EV rollout. One EV has at least 100 individual cells (maybe more). Each must be manufactured to good tolerances and verified for charge capacity. Doing that for 200K cars in one year would be a big deal. I think I heard one PR from A123 that they could support a capacity of 30K battery packs for EVs per year at full capacity for prismatic cells needed. Maybe that was associated with Fisker/Spark capacity. Until making battery systems is as easy as stamping out engine blocks, we’ve got that price to pay for the added cost of the complexity and detailed build of the battery system. It’s pretty complex and it replaces the “gas tank” of today’s car – which is simply stamped metal.
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:41 am)I really like another EV coming to market.
One up-manship is great for those of us who love innovation, but I also think it is important to fill in the herd as well. When I got my prius back in 2003, there were only two hybrids on the market (prius and insight), when I was shopping for the current car I found over 40 different hybrids listed on edmunds.com; that is awesome. None of them really ended up beating the prius per se, but filling in the herd shows a level of acceptance of the tech and progress for the market as a whole.
+7
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:47 am)These EVs are starting to look better for an Impala replacement. Focus is not all that small of a car. Plus, they used to make a wagon version. (I don’t see a wagon in the lineup now.)
For us older folks, we need a car that is easy to get in and out of plus enough room to pick up grandkids and such. Also, we go out for dinner a lot with other couples. The back seat needs to be large enough for another set of old folks.
I think the retired are a great demographic for early EV buyers. They generally don’t drive all that much and prefer upper-scale cars. Fueling at home is a huge bonus.
The downside is that we don’t have enough tax liability to get a full credit in some cases. Make that credit an up-front rebate and we can get moving on converting the fleet from oil.
+4
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:54 am)The 50% number wasn’t so helpful because it included aero losses and rolling resistance losses AND conversion losses. A don’t see why 75% couldn’t be achieved. You’re just running the chemical–>kinetic conversion in reverse.
Another day another screen name. As has been pointed out ad nausea, the Prius isn’t cost effective. If saving money is important, get a Fit. Or ride a bike. The only cost effective solution in cars is something like e-Assist which gives you a big boost in MPG for a modest number of dollars.
I drove one a while back. Not sure it was the NA version. It was spartan but in a “only what you need” way it was kinda cool. And the car reviewers who have had it for a month or so have all loved it. If you have a lot of freeway driving then I’d hesitate, but otherwise I’d get it. I love the Volt but it is priced so it’s only addressable by 7% of the market (I think that was the number).
Just to expand on the freeway driving, and speaking of our friend John, who I guess today is Nelson, I didn’t BTW think it was any worse on the freeway than a Prius. It’s just that personally I am not comfortable on the freeway in a Prius. It gets blown around too much and there is too much road noise. The i-Miev felt better actually though the test drive wasn’t that long so maybe it was just the amount of traffic.
+6
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:56 am)What it boils down to is all these OEMs are selling the cars for $7500 more than they could NOW sell them for if the credit dissappeared. This is because they have to look at the BIG picture / Long run and they have to plan now for competing when there are no longer government credits. They also have to guard against competing for extended periods of time against other companies who have not used up their credits.
So for now they pocket the $7500 to go towards their R&D costs. But they are surely planning their ramp-up and supply chain costs so that they can compete when the credits run out.
The Volt for instance will need to sell in the 30-34K range when the credit runs out. They will meet that by reducing their component costs, manufacturing costs and standard options.
They will also have more expensive and less expensive model options.
The government credits did get us to this point but now they only serve to reward a slow gradual ramp-up. As bonaire states, its not all bad to go slowly and avoid quality mistakes. But again the credit was not structured to reward companies to move faster, just insure that they move.
+3
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:59 am)You never run out of tax credits. The government doesn’t have a bag of money which it uses to pay out tax credits. As a taxpayer you have income and you pay taxes on that income. A tax credit lets you keep more of your money. Works just like the deduction for interest on home mortgages or charitable contributions or for the exclusion from income of capital gains. FWIW those are vastly more cost to the Treasury than the EV credits. No comparison in the magnitude.
+3
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:35 am)I hope Ford improved the charge port door. The Focus Electric on display at CES last January had a missing charge port door by the end of the show.
+3
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:36 am)Just like they never ran out of “Cash for Clunkers”
Tax Laws are not written in stone. This might date me but I think I remember being able to deduct the interest paid on a car loan years ago. What happen to that?
NPNS!
Volt#671
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:37 am)But the real question is: Will they position a pure electric car at a price point below any of the other pure EVs? It probably will be positioned several thousands of dollars lower than the Leaf mostly because it is a sub-compact that is much smaller than the other EVs. I suspect GM will price the EV Spark at a price that is profitable, more or less, then add the federal tax credit to it for the final price. This is just my opinion.
+6
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:43 am)Its hard to imagine buying an electric Focus when you can get a Volt for the same price. I guess if price is not the object and you never need to go further than 30 or 35 miles away from home go for it. As for me I’ll stick with the Volt!
+3
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:51 am)True. But it just seems Ford is being way too conservative on the plug-in vehicle front. Many including myself thought they were coming shortly with a Plug-in Hybrid Escape. Then came the news that they weren’t coming with a Plug-in Escape, but rather a Plug-in Energi station wagon thingy. And the Energi was to be in 2013 or later to boot.
When I look at it, the situation appears to me as 2013 is the end of the first wave and beginning of the second wave of Plug-in vehicles. We will have the Focus EV and the Plug-in Prius just starting to come available in Spring of 2012 in select states. And as we have read here before, GM and Nissan are planning to increase production of their cars in that same period. Pretty much everyone else across the board is quiet until 2013. Then the second wave is going to have A LOT more players coming to the table in earnest. Interesting times my friend.
+3
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:58 am)Sums the decision process up very nicely. Thanks!
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (12:15 pm)Another BEV100. Whoopee. From what little we can tell, a very well engineered BEV100, but still; no market-disrupting breakthrough here.
While I am gratified to see Atlanta swiftly added to the next wave of availability, as a resident I can tell you that 100 miles isn’t going to cut it in most of our huge metro area, or with our aggressive drivers (and we all know what 100 miles really means: 70 – 80 miles).
If I were in the market for a BEV, the Microsoft would be a deal-breaker. Microsoft is okay sitting in your cubicle where you don’t die if it breaks, and have support on call. In a car, not so much.
+3
Nov 3rd, 2011 (12:15 pm)You have just described the Mitsubishi i.
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (12:39 pm)You’re still not getting it. Cash for Clunkers was a “rebate” or subsidy program that required the government to mail out checks. The EV tax credits require that taxpayers send in less money. The government doesn’t have to mail out anything. If the government had no more borrowing authority and couldn’t send out Social Security checks or pay doctors under Medicare, the EV tax credits wouldn’t be affected because it’s a loss of revenue not payments.
One you can run out of. One you can’t.
As for tax laws changing, they always do. Personally I think it would be better to have just a set number of rebates for all manufacturers. Probably won’t happen.
+4
Nov 3rd, 2011 (12:48 pm)I would not put BMW in with this group. First of all you’ve been able to lease a BMW in the form of the mini-E, and now you can lease an electric Series 1. BMW is way ahead of Ford. AFAIK Ford isn’t actually leasing anything at the moment, and, when it starts selling, the program will be limited just like the BMW program has been to date.
More importantly, BMW has a serious EV program. Very serious. They’re still a couple of years out but the i3 and i8 are interesting cars designed for higher production than the current crop of CARB plays, meaning Spark/Fit/RAV4/Focus etc.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (1:04 pm)That’s the point I’m trying to make. $7,500 TAX Credit for first 200,000 eligible cars per manufacturer is here today but may be gone tomorrow before any manufacturer even makes 200,000 eligible cars. That’s why I think they should strike while the iron is hot and make/sell as many as they can at a non-tax credit price. IMO early market penetration will be a longer lasting benefit than the $7,500 tax credit law. I predict the $7,500 amount will be greatly reduced or go away by 2015.
NPNS!
Volt#671
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (1:08 pm)I’m skeptical that BMW will mass produce carbon fiber-intensive automobiles. I hope I’m wrong.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (1:16 pm)Great insight. I’d nearly completely forgotten all of that when I was reading the other comments. And at the time I had written my first comment early this morning this was the furthest thing from my conscious thoughts, such as they were on a nearly sleepless night…that really was an earth shatteringly huge dust-up wasn’t it?
+13
Nov 3rd, 2011 (1:25 pm)We have the rebate system we have here in Canada (Ontario).
Doesn’t matter how much you have paid/will pay in taxes, because it is a true rebate program. I think in this instance, if the goal is to promote EVs, the program really should be a rebate one in the states. Its really a ‘class’ based credit…which I think sends the wrong message.
I agree with you that it should have just been the original first 250,000 cars got a rebate over what we you have now.
Incidently (and sorta on this sub-topic), I just got my rebate cheque for my latest LEAF purchase. Bought it a month ago, emailed in the app for the rebate, and got the cheque in the mail today. (As random FYI: Was 8,231.00 for the Volt)
Just for fun, here is what instant gratification looks like:
/easy-peasy
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (1:28 pm)The gradual release of EVs is what you would expect from entrenched players who have a lot of capital tied up in ICE cars. Just enough to keep someone like Fisker to blow the whole thing wide open.
Oh well it is what it is.
A 2 hour recharge on a 100 mile pack is pretty good, better than I was expecting to see — thats great for
shopping trip charging and other opportunity charging but… not quite good enough for long trips, even if you like frequent stops to streach your legs.
If Ford offered a special charger on a trailer to pull behind…
I vote swing-and-a-miss, but still I’m glad to see it’s out there.
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (1:30 pm)Lots of companies have EV programs, and even leases, but not cars you can buy. BMW *says* they’ll sell their EV’s in 2013. Again, i’ll believe it when I see it. Ford is delivering some cars this year 2011 and a bunch next year 2012. Until a company is actually delivering vehicles for people to own, I still consider them “not in the market”.
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (1:34 pm)Yeah, that was an emotional event. And now, every car with a battery is in the $30-40 grand range. Take this Focus EV…same price as a Volt. Focus EV has 100 mile range (on a good day with the wind behind you) vs. the Volt with 400 mile plus range.
I guess I’m trying to point out a glaring double standard. When the Volt was announced at $41000, many said they were nuts, and no one would buy them, GM was secretly trying to kill the EV again, blah blah, blah. Now, Ford has their EV for the same price, with all of the range limitations of an all-electric car, and where are the people demonizing Ford?
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (1:43 pm)Not a chance. The government is not mandating a slow roll-out. The 200k has nothing to do with the rate of ramp up. It has everything to do with manufacturing costs and availability of new parts like electric power brakes, electric motor, batteries etc. When the volume gets high enough these will be cheap and competitive. But it takes time to get there. Only Nissan is so far willing to sell well below cost to gain early market share. To use the LEAF price and assume that all manufacturers can come out of the gate at the same price is false thinking.
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (2:02 pm)Just a tepid diversification and halo effort–Ford makes their $ selling trucks and SUVs.
Focus EV and the Volt at the same price? Volt wins easily, IMO–it’s a much more complete car. Now we’re REALLY gonna find out how much range-deanxiety is worth.
OT: Wild swings, but WTI is back above $94.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (2:10 pm)That will be even more true with an EV that has a full sized trunk. Cars like the Volt don’t limit you to a coupla’ golf clubs an emergency kit and a forty mile radius.
I suppose the Focus EV is aimed at, people who will not miss the trunk space loss, and 1) people who complete every auto related task in a nearby radius, or anticipate strategically placed EVSE’s; 2) people who do most of the above and have access to ICE’s; 3) People who certify that CARB requirements have been met by OEM’s. Yet, the more electrified choices there are, the better for the folks that can and will go electric NOWWW, so bring it on!
Full EV cars on a dedicated platform like the Leaf allow you to pile up family, friends and stuff. That is, if your lifestyle currently happens on drives less than 40 miles from home or your destinations are conveniently located by an EVSE. I’d like to see dedicated platforms in volume to help bring down prices, create acceptance and have fewer compromises to the vehicles.
Better batteries will be coming out of the labs and into the fabs. A 6 to 8% a year improvement and hopefully a big leap here and there. Higher capacity less expensive batteries could transition the EREV’s toward new innovations. Like tiny little ICE’s burning propane. And transition EV’s to dedicated platforms and away from conversions like the Focus and the Spark.
-1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (2:22 pm)Depends on the end user/buyer’s needs. My wife, for example, could drive a 100-mile EV for two weeks without needing a charge since she drives around 5mi per day tops. Those miles, however, are very important to our family since she is in charge of picking up kids at school while the moms work. The maintenance on her current car (an Impala) is very high per mile driven. A BEV would be much less.
In my case, I sometimes drive 70+ miles in a day doing errands after a 40-mile (round trip) commute. A 100-mile BEV (75 miles or so nominal) wouldn’t cut it.
+4
Nov 3rd, 2011 (2:28 pm)If you live in a sunbelt state you cannot afford not to have an electric car and solar panels. Many analysts point out that in just four years that combination can pay for the solar panels, and the upgrade to an electric car. Giving you free gas and home electricity for the next 20 to 30 years. Plus instant quiet torque from 0 RPM.
As I sit here in the High desert in California looking at the ICE in my driveway and the solar panel less roof of my house. I wonder what will be the moment that makes us all finally realize what we need to do?
From the iMiev to the Volt and the many that follow, put ‘em all out there…NPNS
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (2:45 pm)I talked to a guy at consumer reports who seemed pretty convinced. According to him, EVs will help make carbon fiber mainstream because the weight savings for the car will lead to even more weight savings (and therefore cost savings) with the batteries. And, apparently, they’re sourcing their carbon fiber from a Boeing supplier, and they’re getting it pretty cheap. (Apparently, they’re starting with “scrap carbon fiber” since they don’t think the initial demand will be that large.)
Nov 3rd, 2011 (2:48 pm)“More car than electric” is the tagline
-1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (2:56 pm)Where do you suppose GM makes its real money?
Nov 3rd, 2011 (3:05 pm)Good to see the Ford EV…. I hope it does well.
It looks like I will get the solar panels on my roof first then my electric CUV.
One of the only bright spots in our economy today is thousands of Electric drives on the road and more to come shortly.
Very good to see Ford and GM with a electric driveline on the road….
Wonder who has the most miles so far on a Chevy Volt?
My daughter said that while she was test driving a Volt in DC last november, the GM tech person said that GM had a test Volt with 500,000 miles on it last November.
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (3:15 pm)Kind of on-topic but I looked on cars.com for Nissan Leaf models:
515 listed
498 are 2011 models << Demos??
only 17 are 2012 models
Volt shows 3546 now, same as it was the morning of 10/31. looks like 95 have been sold in the last couple days (due to deltas since 10/31). It changes up and down and it's somewhat easy to watch the sales if you look every couple hours. With numbers like that, Volt should outsell Leaf in November. I’ll watch their numbers there on cars.com as well and see how they track.
+7
Nov 3rd, 2011 (3:34 pm)Where do you suppose Toyota makes its real money?
+9
Nov 3rd, 2011 (3:44 pm)Nissans 2011 demos just went out of lockdown recently, their saleable ‘new’ inventory was a little under 80 before the release.
A good bulk of the demo LEAFs will sell quickly in addition to 2012 deliveries (which just started for this month) which should give them a pop this month, but with supply flooding the dealers this month at Chevy, the Volt will/should crush the LEAF for both November and December.
I’m not a fan at all of making it a competition between the cars. However, it should be said that although the Volt outsold the LEAF 1,100 to 850 in the US, it was strictly a function of supply.
This was a very taxing month for Nissan, as they have started deliveries to 6 other countries in the last several weeks, and upped deliveries to another 5 In total, Nissan is delivering to 13 countries now, with that expanding to 17 in 3 months time, as opposed to the Volt’s two. Overall deliveries in October were north of 3,000 for Nissan.
—
Aside on the competition thing:
In my opinion…whoever sells the most is NOT the winner of the ‘best car’ here. The fact is, that the Volt is not going to outsell the LEAF, it just isn’t. When the final Volt and LEAF has been produced it will be a total bloodbath, if that is how you are putting value on the cars. For myself, I am not.
The demand is not there for the Volt, nor is the infrastructure behind. Simply put, the price is too high to get it into the average person in the world’s hands. Quite frankly, on top of that, it is probably one of the most misunderstood cars in the auto universe. A lot of people either A) just can’t understand it at all, or B) can’t understand the price when it still has an ICE onboard with a small electric range (it should be a plus, but it doesn’t translate that way). Also, on the world stage, the Volt has a lot of incentives NOT working for it (and to some extent even here in the US) because it is not a full BEV.
I don’t think anyone is claiming that the Toyota Corolla and/or the VW Golf is the best car ever made, or is the best car for you or I to own because they have sold 60 million of them combined, but rather those cars where just made the most accessible/practical for the most people.
The likely end result here is that the Volt is going to sell at around 2,000-2,500ish units a month when it all evens out and supply has caught up…and that is darn good for a $40K+ compact, 4 seat, EV. That is nosebleed land for passenger cars…few cars can sell at that level. The LEAF looks like it will end up at around 12,000ish a month worldwide, which is also very strong. They can both be winners.
-4
Nov 3rd, 2011 (3:52 pm)Considering that they make hardly any big, fat trucks and SUVs, I would hazard the guess that it’s on the Corolla and Camry.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (4:00 pm)Meh!
+6
Nov 3rd, 2011 (4:08 pm)So the Tundra and the Tacoma are figments of my imagination? Good to know.
And all those SUVs on their website–I must be imagining those too…
http://www.toyota.com/suvs/
+4
Nov 3rd, 2011 (4:18 pm)Huh!
Hardly make any, or hardly sell any of the ones they make?
Nov 3rd, 2011 (4:34 pm)My guess is that the vast majority of people would trade away 50 more elec miles for 300 gas miles. Time and time again Americans have shown that they want ‘plenty in reserve’, e.g., single commuters in Tahoes, 300hp family sedans, 20″ wheels. And for that matter, 4,500sq ft homes and Big Gulps. The biggest limitation is $–if they can purch or lease a lot more than they typically need, they will.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (4:42 pm)According to http://www.voltstats.net/, there’s a car with 23,156 miles. I think Jay Leno said he had over 10K miles on his.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (4:44 pm)Are you counting fleet sales like the one for GE? Also consider the Spark eating into Leaf sales.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (4:47 pm)That’s pretty much what I’ve read. People will typically buy the most HP they can afford. I’m sure in 50 years people will buy the biggest traction motor they can afford.
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (5:04 pm)That’s music to my ears, Ted. You’re the man.
+6
Nov 3rd, 2011 (5:06 pm)Yes, thats my guess. I don’t see the Spark affecting the LEAF at all, maybe the Focus Electric a little, but no one is putting the production power behind any of these BEVs to scratch Nissan right now, and for the next several years.
I don’t think 12,000 for the LEAF (like that of the 2,000-2,500ish for the Volt) is really all that high considering Nissan’s production/sales ambitions…they are targeting more in the neighbourhood of 25,000/month.
I think Nissan/GM, in having listened to all the ooos and awwws leading up to production, have both optimistically overshot the mark a little in terms of their own expectations…but both results will be decent to very good in the end.
In fact I did an story/study here once upon a time, well before we knew what the car’s MSRP was about ongoing sales. I really don’t see anything that has changed fundamentally. Here’s an excerpt (and my handsome graph):
—
—
February 24th, 2010
“With gas prices hovering at $2.60 nationally, the economy not going so well, and Nissan now threatening to make good on the rumor to set the price of the Leaf in the mid 20s after rebate, (“…we promise there will be a “wow” factor with how affordable it is!”) GM will have to do a lot better than $39,999 to sell at the volumes they are looking for.
Hopefully with the benefit of scale, good engineering, and falling battery prices, GM can find a way to get to market with a MSRP in the mid 30s and be a leader in this new segment. But then again…maybe they really don’t want to be. Maybe selling 2,000 Volts a month plus a few hundred even more pricey Volt-based EREVs is good enough for them. /I hope not
There is no debate that GM is years ahead of the competition in getting a extended range EV to market. The platform’s advantages are obvious. Hopefully, GM management doesn’t use this opportunity for short term gain by over pricing a handful of cars (relatively speaking) in lieu of owning a big piece of the future of the automobile.”
…if you’d like to read the whole (very long and wordy) thing:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/02/24/op-ed-forecasting-future-demand-for-the-volt/
Nov 3rd, 2011 (5:08 pm)So now, EVs are so common that they are not market-disrupting breakthroughs ?
Maybe for the crowd of this site but certainly not for everybody else.
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (5:08 pm)This is trivia, but could be interesting to those of you who’ve not seen it.
What happens when a Focus has a head-on at 120 mph? (faster than this electric version can go, I know).
(If you want to skip ahead to the crash, forward the video to around 2:03) -
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (5:20 pm)I think the Focus ECV isn’t all that bad. It has seating for 5, and has more upscale features built into it’s base price – some which just are not available on the Leaf and some which you have to pay for on the Volt. It also can charge faster at home than any of them. And it looks way better than a Leaf. If I didn’t need my Volt (which I love) for its range extender, and if Ford had delivered the Focus EV this year to Canada, Ford might have had my $$$.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (5:28 pm)=================================
Sorry, it is hardly a double standard, because it was a completely different situation. GM had been quoting the price of the Volt at “nicely under $30,000″ for quite some time. Then they went silent about the price. When the $40K+ pricing was finally announced, it came across as a betrayal to many of us long time posters here at gm-volt.com.
To be honest, I have not followed the Ford product introduction all that much, but I don’t remember them quoting a low ball price up front.
All I can say is that after driving the Volt, I still bought it, as I thought it was worth it!
JMHO
C-5277 – Ordered 06-28-2011 – Produced 09-26-2011 – Purchased 10-04-2011
Nov 3rd, 2011 (5:29 pm)Biggest? Or highest rated, not much difference in size between them.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (5:35 pm)========================================
If the real goal was to get one million electric cars on the road as quickly as possible, it should have been set up where the $7500 was an immediate reduction off of the sticker price, and it should not have a 200K cars per manufacturer limit. How many GM electric vehicles do you think would be in production right now if they thought they could get a lions share of those $7500 credits??????
I think we would already see the Caddy ELR, the MPV5, and the Spark in the showrooms…..
C-5277 Ordered 06-28-2011 Produced 09-26-2011 Purchased 10-04-2011
Nov 3rd, 2011 (5:41 pm)Each car sold is good.
Today, I read a story that said the production of man-influenced C02 this year was sharply up, more than in many years previous.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (5:46 pm)There is no doubt. But of course there are always unintended consequences to every solution.
If the credit was as you describe (available equally to all OEM but running out at some date or total number), then yes GM would be cranking out 3 models now (spark, volt, ELR) at a fast pace and much lower costs, trying to beat Nissan to those credits.
But its possible that the other manufacturers beside Nissan and GM would have just sat back and not got into the game. There is a small chance that these other companies not getting into the game now, that me might have lost some innovations. I doubt it though.
-5
Nov 3rd, 2011 (7:00 pm)Very clever. Now go look at sales.
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (7:27 pm)I live in the South, and even here I see a lot of Highlanders, Tundras, and Sequoias.
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:20 pm)Love it!
No Plug, No Sale!
+3
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:22 pm)You do realize that the margins on those SUVs are a lot higher than the margins on a Corolla? So even if they sell more of them–the money is in the SUVs. And their failure to sell as many as GM or Ford? Well, it’s not for lack of trying…
That said, Toyota does have access to a very nice profit center in the closed-to-outsiders Japanese market…So that’s probably where their real money is.
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:40 pm)There are unintended consequences of getting out of bed and walking across the street. There unintended consequences of staying in bed like bedsores and pnuemonia. There are unintended consequences of doing nothing like outsized housing bubbles and market monopolies. Thankfully we’ve been blessed with a bump between our shoulders to help anticipate and mitigate these risks.
-1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:49 pm)Most interesting. However, I see that at a base MSRP of $40K (which has been realized), you forecast 25K Volts. We’re currently running at about a 13K/year level. And gas is $3.50, rather than $2.60, which likely edges demand up, although the relatively poor economy isn’t helping (although the average income for a Volt buyer is $175K, and it’s thought that the relatively wealthy aren’t suffering as much as the rest of the population).
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (10:53 pm)Hey, I apologize for my snarky tone. I got confused and thought our friend John aka Charlie aka Neturon aka Who Knows was posing as a Volt owner, which annoyed me. Just got Neutron and Nelson mixed up.
I’d rather they just give out 800,000 first come first serve. That would give incentives to get more out sooner. The limited time offer.
+1
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:05 pm)And, put the incentive at the point of sale so that the credit is realized immediately. And not factored into the sales tax or loan value amount. I think Canada is doing the 8500 rebate cheque, right? Their goal is 5% EVs by 2020.
-2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:08 pm)The fact is, they make money with a mix of vehicles that is largely small cars.
Certainly I realize the margins on SUVs are greater… that’s why GM (and Ford) loves them so much.
As to the closed Japanese market, dream on, it’s only closed to inferior products. And not by fiat, that’s just the way the Japanese auto market is. GM attempted to crack that market with the Cadavalier, a car that sucked rocks even by our lax standards, a car that was one of the vehicles responsible for GM’s massive market share loss in the ’90′s. There’s marketing genius.
I often suggest to people that they look up DesRosier’s Vehicle Longevity Trends Report. You should. It tells you pretty much all you need to know about the state of the auto markets. Give it a look. You’ll notice that certain Japanese brands generally stay on the roads longer than certain (OK, all) domestic brands. That kind of inferiority isn’t going to win in the export markets.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:14 pm)Very cool. Two Leafs and a Volt? I didn’t know your son was driving yet. LOL
I think you’re way off on the number of Volts that will be sold. I understand your reasons and the traditional analysis is on your side but I think BEVs are niche vehicles, especially in cold weather states.
As for the Volt being too expensive, the difference between the base Leaf and the base Volt is a couple of thousand dollars, plus, with the Volt, you don’t need a $2K EVSE install. Consequently I don’t see a huge difference in the size of the market for each of these cars. They’ll be playing in the same space.
But I think that space is way larger than you seem to think is. I’m looking at the County where I live. There are in excess of 12K residential PV systems. You have to think that a 50% penetration is a piece of cake for people who have identified themselves as having bucks and being interested in the technology.
The market analysis was a great piece BTW.
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:31 pm)You want to provide a cite? Overall it looks to me like a much higher percentage of domestic vehicles are on the road after 20 years.
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:35 pm)Actually BMW opened a new plant in eastern WA where the electricity is cheap, plentiful & renwable sourced to make carbon fiber. They will supply i* cars. The plant was recently opened.
http://www.registerguard.com/web/business/26805762-41/carbon-plant-bmw-fibers-state.html.csp
Anyone who says BMW is not serious is not well informed.
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:45 pm)AFAIK, Microsoft doesn’t do any contract work. They sell the OS – Windows Automotive to various manufacturers. Each manufacturer writes their own set of apps – or as in the case of recent MySync problems Ford is having (that resulted in their new car quality plunging) contract out the app writing work. I believe the biggest problem is use of Adobe Flash – which has made MySync slow & buggy.
http://www.fordedgeforum.com/index.php?/topic/6240-2011-edgemkx-my-touch-and-sync-problems/page__st__520
+2
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:46 pm)And, sans legacy costs, and the ability to import as freely as Toyota, GM could to. But why should they turn down the chance to make more money when people are buying SUVs?
And so does Toyota. Believe, they want to sell as many of them as they possibly can.
We’ve had this conversation before. Forget GM for a moment. Does Hyundai put out an inferior product? Why did they abandon the Japanese market? What about First Solar? Are their products also inferior? And then there’s the xbox…
But that’s not the point of this post. My point is that Toyota is, bottom line, a car company. They exist to sell ICE’s. They have the same motivations as GM and Ford. The only difference is that, at the moment, they’re behind when it comes to electric propulsion.
-3
Nov 3rd, 2011 (11:55 pm)You could have googled it up yourself…
http://www.desrosiers.ca/2007%20Update/Documents%20and%20Reports/2008%20OBS/Obs%202008%20August.pdf
There are a couple of domestic garage queens in my neighborhood that are pretty old but the oldest daily drivers in my neighborhood are Toyotas and Hondas.
-1
Nov 4th, 2011 (12:10 am)I think Statik’s analysis is quite good. Both GM & Nissan have over-estimated the demand.
Infact I think the market will take a hockey stick approach. Once the initial demand is satiated, the sales may even go down before picking up as reluctant mainstream market opens up.
ps : Funny what you say about cold weather states & BEV. In Norway BEVs sell very well – some 600 Leafs were sold out in no time.
-1
Nov 4th, 2011 (12:17 am)Some products are difficult to crack – people just prefer locally made products. Besides, unlike local companies, others may not be willing to spend time developing particular models for the market. BTW, German luxury cars sell quite well in Japan.
Nov 4th, 2011 (12:19 am)I’ve read a lot of about FFE – first time I’ve seen this adjective “well engineered” – considering that it is a conversion by Magna, weight distribution problems, 300 lb heavier than Leaf, Battery taking up half the trunc space etc.
-4
Nov 4th, 2011 (12:30 am)Oh, that’s your point? You hadn’t brought that up before.
Toyota is in business to make money. They intend to do it whatever way works and they happen to be good at building cars, so they leverage that.
As for Toyota lagging behind in electric propulsion, take another look. They’ve put 2 million cars on the road that move electrically. They just don’t do that full time, because it’s not cosst-effective. They noticed that building a reliable EV would be expensive, they’d have to sell them for a crapload of money and people probably wouldn’t buy very many of them.
Surprise! They were right. GM tried that same experiment and sold 1108 Volts last month.
The Volt isn’t full-time electric propulsion, either. That’s why that transaxle with the electro-mechanical goodies is a one-piece unit bolted to the engine block.
Now, as I recall, this sub-thread was originally started by a dimissive post in re the Focus EV about how Ford made their money on the truck/SUV market. The fact of the matter is, if GM’s making any money, it’s because they also have a mix that’s heavily trucks/SUVs, by the sales numbers. Toyota skews towards lighter vehicles (one of their best-selling “trucks” is the Rav4, which is about the same mass as a Malibu and another is the Sienna, which is far more aerodynamic than your average truck and, the last time I checked into it, was built on the Camry platform) and they do make money, ergo, they are making it off smaller vehicles than GM does.
Perspectives on the Japanese Auto Market:
http://www.hanzoautobuzz.com/2011/02/2010-top-10-best-selling-cars-in-japan/
Note: Their Fit is even smaller than our Fit. “K” cars have an engine smaller than a liter and weigh something like 1200 lbs.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/10/guess-which-cars-sell-in-japan-imports-now-guess-which-ones/
Note: Bertel Schmitt has been in the auto industry in Asia for many years and he’s the CEO of Sinamotive.
+3
Nov 4th, 2011 (12:52 am)They do in Japan. Not in the US. And I, for one, think that’s a problem. At least, it is if you’re Amerian, and your savings are in dollars.
But it’s highly unlikely that that preference renders Japan and South Korea as the only places where customers are only interested in cars developed for their own markets. The government has a LOT to do with it.
By the way, the corvette also does very well in Japan. Luxury cars have higher margins, so are better able to absorb the cost of non-tariff barriers.
-3
Nov 4th, 2011 (1:05 am)If you want us all to buy “American” cars (especially the ones made up of foreign parts and assembled in other countries), you’d better encourage the “American” car companies to built better cars. And then wait a while, ’cause few will be buying what you’re selling until the “American” car companies have established better reputations.
Go look at the DesRosiers report… people didn’t switch to Toyotas and Hondas because they love Japan and secretly want to be Japanese, they switched to save money.
+3
Nov 4th, 2011 (1:10 am)Exactly. And they face the same incentives in the US market as GM does.
I think you should wait until the Volt is readily available before you make that judgment. Besides, 1108 isn’t bad for a $40,000 car. It always takes time for a new technology to catch on. When Toyota first tried to export small cars to the US, they failed miserably. But they kept at it, and eventually succeeded.
That said, you keep missing my point. Why are small cars “better” than SUVs? Small cars also burn gas, and pollute. Not quite as much per distance traveled, but still…The Volt is to the the Prius what the Prius is to an SUV. If that’s not good enough for you-well, there’s always the train…
You spend a lot of time advocating for Toyota. Why not spend that time advocating for mass transit if the Volt isn’t green enough for you?
+4
Nov 4th, 2011 (1:21 am)They already are. Just look at consumer reports.
And they saved money because the yen is substantially undervalued. And they weren’t burdened by the American companies’ legacy costs… Unfortunately, if you want companies to pay out generous benefits, you can’t force them to compete with companies that don’t have to pay said benefits.
Let’s put it this way. We have a lot of retired blue collar workers who were promised an overly generous retirement. Someone has to pay for that. If it’s the car companies, then they will shift the costs to the consumers. If they can’t shift said costs to the consumers because of foreign competition, they will probably go out of business. Which they ultimately did.
+3
Nov 4th, 2011 (1:29 am)And the brand break-out is where exactly? The only reference to Toyota was in the text, and that only referenced how few of them were on the road as compared to MB.
You must not have spent any time there. They drive about the same distance as Americans, except they do it in km and we do it in miles. Distances are much shorter and gas is way more expensive. Norway may be the same size as Montana but driving is completely different.
Has anyone driven one? You would think that there would be lots of test drives but all you hear is crickets. I don’t understand why anyone would put down money on this car.
Given the current effort by the Japanese government to manipulate the yen in order to save Toyota and other Japanese based manufacturers this is something of a joke. Your suggestion that the luxury German brands have succeeded is certainly a joke. German luxury makers may sell a couple of thousand cars a month. That’s it.
-1
Nov 4th, 2011 (2:55 am)1108 for a long-awaited, unique, EV that costs $40K, $33.5K after rebate, is not so hot. And it is readily available; GM says there’s 72 days of inventory available (that’s after demos set aside). Certainly, Toyota needed persistence but they had the advantage of selling competitively priced cars.
Where did I say small cars are “better” than SUVs? My implication, and I will spell it out, is that Toyota is likely better positioned for long-term profitability, as they seem to be able to make money without sales of high-priced, high-margin gas guzzlers. Comments on the GM conference call suggest that GM is catching up in this regard (or believes it is) but they are still top-heavy in their sales mix. The high price of the Volt suggests difficulty meeting cost targets. The Volt is the price of an iMiev and a Yaris. One car for the price of two… does it really have twice the parts? The iMiev has a similar battery capacity and it is a thermally conditioned battery.
Yeah, I favor mass transit. I post on that elsewhere and suggest it here when it seems appropraite.
I don’t advocate for Toyota, I am pointing out what Toyota is getting right and I hope that GM is going to catch on but, frankly, I have my doubts.
-1
Nov 4th, 2011 (3:13 am)This one has it:
http://www.desrosiers.ca/2007%20Update/Documents%20and%20Reports/2007%20OBS/Trends%20in%20Vehicle%20Longevity.pdf
As I recall, the big brand was VW, with 6K vehicles per month and those aren’t exactly luxury cars. All told, it’s over 30K vehicles into a much smaller market.
Currency manipulation isn’t something that only the Japanese practice (and they clearly need a lot of practice, the yen has fallen from about 88 to 78 in the last year or two).
Nov 4th, 2011 (9:14 am)What about China? I don’t know what the GM/SAIC group will call their version of the Spark, but being that China is the #1 future car market, this is important. I see the Chinese going for Buick/GM/Chevy over a Japanese car. Who knows what BYD will do.
Nov 4th, 2011 (9:15 am)Most KW is what I meant.
Nov 4th, 2011 (10:38 am)Personally, I don’t see the Spark or LEAF…or really any ‘human’ sized EV doing that well in China at this point. 7-10 years from now when today’s tech lithium packs are going for $200/kWh, sure…but not now.
I think we tend to look at China as a larger maket because it sells more ‘cars’ than in the US. However, most of the ‘cars’ sold in China would not even be remotely considered by 90% of people here.
While the Volt/LEAF/Spark (et al) could feasible fit into the budgets of 10% of Americas, that number is probably less than half of 1% in China. China’s new incentives for status might be more effective than dollar bills (no car lottery on EVs now), but it will still be a minimal portion of their car demo.
Additionally, there is an old-school North American mentality among the rich/wealthy in China to drive around in classica ‘boat-like’ vehicles to show your wealth, not compact EVs.
Random thing on China/GM:
Buick is the NA equivalent of the Cadillac for some reason in the East (probably because they down budget the luxury, mid here is high there). Chevy is not near as good as a brand in China…and when I say Chevy, I mean 2 cars, the Cruze/Sail, because they make up nearly 80% of all Chevy sales. Buick usually outsells Chevy in the neighbourhood of 7:5. Pricey Cadillacs make up only about 1% of sales, with 66% of that being the rebadged Equinox masquarading as a SRX.
Out of the 2,100,000 odd vehicles GM has sold so far this year, the number of passenger vehicles that would be $40,000 maybe 10,000 (comparitively speaking with the US pricepoints).
If you want to sell a EV in China in any volume, you need a compact, rattle trap, with little safety or convieniance features that goes 50+ miles for at most, $20,000.
Nov 4th, 2011 (12:17 pm)I have a feeling that’s what SAIC/GM will come up with and slap a Buick label on it. Or they could stick with some version of the MPV. I’m also guessing that is what Nissan is planning to do w/their Dongfeng parter for a Venucia EV. Then they’ll just build the Leaf in China. These cars will be cheap, and China offers a bigger incetives than the US. Something like $9400, with talks of $18,000 per car.