As many of you already know, California-based Fisker is positioned to begin delivering its Karma models in the U.S., Europe and other markets around the world.
The company announced a U.S. Environmental Protection Agency rating this week needed for North American sales that was somewhat lower than its executives had earlier projected.
As you can see, the Karma’s MPGe rating is 52, combined fuel mileage is 20 mpg, and all-electric range is 32 miles.
The EPA and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) have given Fisker the green light, and the stricter-than-Europe California Air Research Board (CARB) has too, but Ormisher says this will take a few more days to finalize.
Fisker is still waiting for official CARB approval, but its Global Communications Director Roger Ormisher says it is a done deal, and will be finalized in a matter of days.
The good news for advanced tech enthusiasts is this is now the second extended-range electric vehicle to begin selling in North America after the Chevy Volt.
GM might also feel validated by the Karma and models expected to follow built on design principles it first introduced, but it is not likely that it feels threatened.
The $95,900-plus Karma costs more than double what a packed Volt does, and its economy does not favorably compare.
Nor is it meant to, Ormisher said.
The Karma is catering to a different type of buyer, he said, adding many owners are expected to stay largely within all-electric range, and under typical usage scenarios, they stand to use very little fuel.
“If you had a 40 mile daily commute you’d only use nine gallons of gas a month and you’d be a thousand miles between fill ups in the car,” Ormisher said. “People are making comparisons with the Chevrolet Volt and the Nissan Leaf and we’re not a Chevrolet Volt or a Nissan Leaf.”
No, Ormisher said, the Karma is more in line with a Maserati Quattroporte or Porsche Panamera, and compared to these and other cars in this class, the Karma’s 52 MPGe is quite good.
Further, the company believes the Karma will outperform the EPA’s figures and Ormisher said all-electric range approaching 50 miles on a charge should be attainable.
To date, he said no existing pre-order customers or would-be customers have expressed inordinate criticism, nor backed out of any deals to buy the Karma upon learning the EPA numbers.
This we learned on a phone interview Ormisher gave us at 8 p.m. eastern time from Washington, D.C. after he had just finished fielding tough questions from other media outlets asking things like whether Fisker will be “the next Solyndra?”
Fisker expects Karmas parked in customers driveways to become an increasingly common sight.
Yesterday, underneath its subhead of “fair & balanced,” Fox News ran the headline, “Fisker Karma a Fuel Economy Flop?”
Critics have also asked whether Fisker – which received a $529 million low interest federal loan – is wasting American taxpayers’ money in the politicized arena surrounding initiatives to solve pressing energy issues.
The answer to all these expressed and implied concerns is the company sees no reason to worry, Ormisher said, as it is actually showing measurable progress.
Solyndra was working on a commodity, and Fisker is building a brand, he said, and circumstances for Fisker are entirely different.
Fisker, which is delivering “an absolutely new technology to the market,” is not in danger of failure and “has liquidity” he said, without confirming whether the reported $1 billion or so it may have in cash is a fact.
Overall, the company is calling the Karma news a “milestone,” and is fielding every question with optimism.
“We’re excited,” Ormisher said of the beginning of an American car company and delivery of first product.
The company now has around 40 Karmas being delivered as demonstrators in the U.S., and a boatload from Finland expected in port in a couple weeks or so has around 200 more designated for customers, he said.
He said the company is not going to predict whether it can meet a previously reported projection of 3,000 Karmas delivered worldwide by year’s end, but he did say Fisker will deliver a “significant number” of cars here and abroad.
Europe should be getting cars some time in November he said, while explaining how a car from Finland made at the Valmet factory which also makes Porsche Caymans and Boxters is “American.”
Ormisher said the company is based in North America, designing product here, and hiring here.
When first starting the Karma project several years ago, Ormisher said Fisker approached GM, Ford and Chrysler to lease some assembly line space, or have them private label the Karma.
Fisker Karma.
All of them declined, he said, so the aspiring American carmaker did what it had to and arranged for their manufacture where it could.
You can’t fault them for trying, Ormisher said, and in the meantime, Fisker bought a former GM plant in Wilmington, Del., and intends to assemble cars domestically as soon as feasible.
Models built in Wilmington will include BMW-engined Project Nina EVers priced around $47,000 before incentives that may give GM and the Volt something to be concerned about.
At this stage, Ormisher said the company feels like creating the globally certified Karma “from absolute zero” inside of four years beat the normal development time of OEMs, has been a success thus far, and will yet be.
This entry was posted on Thursday, October 20th, 2011 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+10
Oct 20th, 2011 (6:31 am)Great topic today Jeff …and timely as always! I’m sure, despite their defensive comments, that Fisker is pretty disappointed in the EPA’s efficiency numbers in both “stealth” and “sport” modes —which are only about HALF what the Fisker host at my test drive report on 9/1/11* said they should be:
o Stealth (electricity only): EPA rating, 52MPGe vs 100MPGe predicted on 9/1 by Fisker host
o Sport mode (gasoline only): EPA rating: 20mpg vs 40mpg predicted on 9/1 by Fisker host
Of less significance, the EPA electric only range is 32 miles, whereas our Fisker host on 9/1/11 claimed the electric range should be 50 miles. However, I certainly agree that their average buyer will probably be comparing the Karma to something like a Maserati Quattroporte or Porsche Panamera —and the Karma compares very favorably to these & other high-end exotics. And it does so while also offering the comfort, performance and style equal to or exceeding many other exotics!
* http://gm-volt.com/2011/09/01/driving-impressions-fisker-karma-vs-chevy-volt-vs-nissan-leaf/
/On a personal note, I prefer a Volt to the Karma for other than cost reasons, and I’m holding out for a Volt SS
+4
Oct 20th, 2011 (7:20 am)PS: Re the hoped-for Volt SS…
One eager writer says, “Chevy will upgrade both electric as well as gasoline performance in the 2013 Chevrolet Volt SS. This way, drivers would able to experience and enjoy the SS performance on any mode they choose. One very realistic speculation is of a turbo-charged direct-injection gasoline engine replacing the existing one. The 2013 Chevrolet Volt SS will also get sportier SS trim along with other modifications. We can expect some cutting edge aerodynamics, a new pair of headlights perhaps and new performance tires for sure. In any event, we know that the new SS will have a completely new persona, yet it will be easily identifiable as a Chevy Volt.” *
In my book, the Volt SS, if GM builds it, will be well worth waiting for by contrast to the Karma!
* http://www.newcarpark.com/blog/623/2013-chevrolet-volt-ss/
+11
Oct 20th, 2011 (8:13 am)I am extremely pleased with the 2012 version.
It is doing everything GM said it would.
For me, this was the right time to purchase!
Great work GM Volt Team!!!
C-5277
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (8:15 am)I was shocked when I first read this. If those numbers were coming from say an EREV Pick-up truck, then the company would have something to crow about. Otherwise, for an extremely aerodynamic, not to mention expensive car, these EPA numbers are indeed a disappointment. What in the world happened there!?
The Project Nina car is mentioned towards the end of the article as being potentially a true competitor to the Volt. No one on the outside has seen the Project Nina car yet, but I think it would have its hands full competing with the Volt. First, where does one go to even buy a Fisker product? There aren’t many dealers around. Second, fewer people have heard of Fisker than have even heard of Tesla, so there’s another hill to climb. Third, Volts will be available nationwide at many, many dealerships very soon. The Fisker Nina is a few years off at the earliest. I think its a great endeavor what Fisker is doing, and I wish them well, but I don’t think they are a concern to GM at this moment.
+4
Oct 20th, 2011 (8:23 am)“The $95,900-plus Karma costs more than double what a packed Volt does, and its economy does not favorably compare.
Nor is it meant to, Ormisher said.
The Karma is catering to a different type of buyer”
————————————-
But wait until the Cadillac ELR comes out. Im guessing it will steal many buyers from the Fisker.
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (8:48 am)Catering to a different type of buyer? Well, sure, if you include Hollywood types, people who live in Carmel and Pebble Beach and are software execs in the valley. We have said here that the Volt currently is too expensive to go mainstream (ie. sales like a Cruze or Accord). This car may sell in numbers like the Corvette – and that is about 1200 per month (see link at bottom). But wait, this is a vehicle by a new company with unknown service and support history. Far less known than Ferrari and Lamborghini. Don’t expect 1000/mo for a while.
>> Fisker – which received a $529 million low interest federal loan
What is the profit margin on the Karma and Nina and how quickly can the loan be paid back? Let’s see. 1,000 cars per month with maybe a $10K profit margin (guessing). At $10M a month, $120M a year, it’s possible to pay it back in say 5 years. But that requires getting the cars out the door and at that price, they may sell under 500 month and have under $5K margin – leading to 20 year payback.
Now, is the Nina really the savior? One story recently said that the Nina will also be priced in the $80K range (link below). It has to be under $50K to be competitive and in a market with maturing BEVs and EREVs, this will be harder to do – incurring slight profits for each unit while working the expenses to maintain their Delaware factory.
It is said that Fisker will not even hire workers in Delaware until June, 2012. Nothing is really being built yet.
I know a few here said Fisker is DOA and it may be so. Will Fisker publish public numbers? Can us owners (taxpayers) of the company see what is going on with the loan we gave them? There are a lot of promises and it stands to reason that they have a lot of fans of the initial Karma and Surf models. But at that price, they either need a huge profit margin per-unit (after paying the sales people, manufacturers, suppliers, factories and other). I doubt profit margin is there to pay back the loan at all.
Look at their battery supplier A123. Good company, really techical people. Still losing a huge chunk of money per quarter and they had an IPO of $20/share of their stock (now $3.35). A123 has customers in various segments (car, grid, hobby) but are not the only player on the block. And neither is Fisker who has a beautiful, albeit weedy*, car that may not sell in high numbers.
*weedy – a “green” technology that uses much more of renewable resources, and in turn underdelivers on its eco-promises, than its competition. In an almost wasteful way. Yes, weeds are nature’s plants too, but they can get in the way and steal nutrients away from other healthy plants. (just made that up this morning – but heck, someone has to)
Corvette sales/month:
http://www.corvetteblogger.com/2011/10/04/september-2011-corvette-sales/#more-7762
Nina @ 80K in here: (but I have also heard sub-50s also)
http://automotivediscovery.com/fisker-project-nina/9210512/
Oct 20th, 2011 (8:51 am)Volt SS -
A 3 speed transmission for the generator? Is that possible? Will that allow the generator to produce more electricity with lower ICE rpm’s?
NPNS!
Volt#671
+9
Oct 20th, 2011 (9:50 am)Now that I’ve had 24 hours to sit and digest the news, I have better perspective.
When the Volt styling ended up different from the prototype, everyone said it wouldn’t sell, yet GM is selling all it can make. When GM reported that the Volt actually engages the engine directly to the wheels it rare instances, everyone said it wouldn’t sell, yet GM is selling all it can make. When the EPA reported that the Volt would get 35 AER and 37 mpg CS, instead of the 40 AER and 50ish mpg CS as everyone had expected, everyone said it wouldn’t sell, yet GM is selling all it can make.
When the EPA reported that the LEAF would only go 73 miles per charge, instead of the 100 miles we expected, everyone said that it wouldn’t sell, yet Nissan is selling all it can make.
While all these companies failed to manage / meet expectations, they are all selling all they can produce in the near term. You can’t say that about Th!nk, and other EV automakers who totally missed the boat.
Oct 20th, 2011 (10:05 am)The good news is that Karma has a solar PV range extender. Right? Fisker says the solar panel will extend the range by 200 miles… per year. If you live in a sunny climate your range is extended about one-half mile per day. LOL! The Karma solar PV range extender isn’t going to save the Karma. The Karma poor-efficiency news is bad news for Fisker but good news for GM and Tesla. Having said that, I hope Fisker sells more Karmas than they can build. If the Karma sells well it would indicate high consumer demand for EREVs.
Oct 20th, 2011 (10:15 am)I don’t think I can link the Karma model to consumers as a whole. A select market, sure, but not consumers. True “consumer” market is somewhere in the middle of the bell curve. I think the Fisker buyer is more likely to pay cash for the car than finance it. Not the typical consumer.
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (10:19 am)At that price, the Tesla Model S (with optional 4.5 second 0 to 60 speed) will zoom past the reported 5.9 second 0 to 60 acceleration (6.3 seconds on the Fisker web page.) With Karma’s 20 mpg, I might as well drive the Escalade across the country.
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (10:21 am)Did the EPA misspell the word “Gallons” as “Galons” on the sticker in the Gasoline Only box? It sure looks like it.
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (10:41 am)I’m thinking this piece is pure speculation. There is no source mentioned in the article.
I’d go for a Volt SS for sure. Even if it ‘only’ had performance equal to Converj/ELR. (Voltec v.1.5).
Oct 20th, 2011 (10:51 am)Ok. It’s fuel economy isn’t too good compared to other hybrids and extented range electrics, but it’s good compared to other expensive supercars that I can’t afford. Until it’s something more affordable, I can’t get too excited. Interesting, but not very meaningful to the everyday driver yet.
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (11:02 am)One thing in the Karma’s favor is that the company selling it isn’t affiliated with Elon Musk, the most tedious man in America. At this point is there anyone who hasn’t been bored to tears by his constant BS of “the Model S won’t be the best electric car in the world, it will simply be the best car in the world!”. Spare me. This stuff plays well in the world of start ups but not so much in the real world of real cars.
Obviously one thing not in the Karma’s favor is the range and the MPG numbers. Not pretty. They do have a point that people willing and able to buy this car are no doubt motivated by different factors than the average driver. Since the Volt has more or less the same, and probably better, technology, the tech geeks are out, leaving the Karma for an eco-green poser who wants to show how much money they can (over) spend on a car. That’s sort of the Porshe, Masarati, Ferrari crowd, only now with a green twist. I do hope they can sell this car, it’s just unclear how many of those potential customers are out there.
From a technological standpoint it’s clear that the A123 batteries fall short on the energy density front. We’ve known that of course but it’s interesting seeing how it plays out here as such a limited range. GM’s decision to go with LG Chem is looking pretty good.
Full disclosure: I placed a deposit on this car back in 2008 so I’m partial to it, if for no other reason than old times sake.
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (11:09 am)I’m with you. Credibility is not helped by the fact the article doesn’t make any technological sense. I was looking around for an April 1 date like on the Voltec pickup story.
My guess is we see some incremental changes until MY 2015 when the Volt moves downstream and the ELR slots in above it. You could get better handling just by using different tires, but faster speeds are going to have to wait for battery improvements. Those could be significant by 2014.
Oct 20th, 2011 (11:17 am)#15: DonC, you mean A123 energy capacity, right? energy density is how fast they can drain while energy capacity is Wh/kg. A123 fall short in the capacity but high in the density. I think you corrected me in another thread on that. I now have to think “are we talking density, capacity, chemistry, voltage??”. The A123 cells have a lower nominal voltage, so I think that is why their capacity is lower per kg. Their prismatic design now allows for better capacity for this market. If they had a nominal voltage of 3.7v instead of the 3.2-3.3v they have now, they might match the LG Chems. I like their lower level of risk being that they can use more of their capacity range without endangering longevity and seeminlyg (as they say) have more full re-charge cycles available compared to the Li-Polymer crowd.
+3
Oct 20th, 2011 (11:28 am)Will I see the Carma in the Nieman Marcus Christmas catalog? The only purpose I can see in this vehicle; is a toy for the rich boys. Sure the car has looks and would be exciting to play with; but I’m just not impressed with the numbers and package as a whole JMO. For the money you could: buy a Volt for yourself and another for your significant other or buy a Tesla model S or if GM would build it, you could buy a BEV Corvette. I am surprised that the Carma actually is making it to market; I just hope they can pay back the government loan.
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (11:34 am)Back when the magazines were touting the Fisker claims as if they were ture, I think a lot was made about how it was so much more impressive than the Volt. I wasn’t buying it, and turns out I was right. These numbers are more than a disappointment, if I had an investment in the company I would be pulling out as soon as possible. IMO, these numbers are a full on disaster for them.
Just goes to show, GM knows how to engineer a car, and it’s not as easy as many people would like to believe.
+3
Oct 20th, 2011 (11:48 am)Sounds like the Karma is destined for green poseurs with very deep pockets, narcissists by nature who calculate that a Karma will boost their credibility to be seen as caring for the world, just as it will enable them to stand out in any crowd due to its sexiness and exclusivity.
GM execs are probably whooping it up with joy over the Karma’s lousy EPA numbers, for they give the Cadillac ELR a pretty low bar to jump over.
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (12:03 pm)#5
As in “dumb”?
+3
Oct 20th, 2011 (12:07 pm)#15
I would tend to agree with you, but I submit that Mr. Fisker and his boys are giving Elon a run for his money in the tedious category, LOL. +1
Oct 20th, 2011 (12:14 pm)#18
Yeah, I’m not holding my breath. When I saw the headline the first word that came to mind was “Solynrda”, but Jeff beat me to it in the story.
They have to have some kind of an angle here, but I confess to not knowing enough about stock manipulation to speculate on what it might be. Making cars has never been the primary objective IMHO.
Oct 20th, 2011 (12:22 pm)You are correct!
Raymond
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (12:40 pm)While a general comment was made in comparison to hybrids, I would like to be more to the point. In my Highlander Hybrid, I get about 30 mpg and in my oversized Tahoe Hybrid, I get 24 mpg (both numbers are city/hwy). We aren’t just comparing these Karma gas only numbers to a Prius, this vehicle sucks (in gas only mode) even in comparison to LARGE hybrid SUVs. Regen brakes and start/stop should have yielded MUCH better mpg than the 20 reported. We can also see why the Volt whips the pants off the the Karma in the mpge realm. Maybe real world numbers will be better, but I am thoroughly unimpressed and disappointed. This appears more to be a high tech toy than any kind of eco-alternative.
Oh, and for the price of this car, you could go out and get the Volt AND the Tahoe Hybrid. Sickening.
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (12:42 pm)The Fisker Karma still has green cred, because, in EV mode, it is as efficient as the Prius, without burning a drop of fuel. Since about 80% of drivers travel less than 40 miles per day, it is very likely that most Karma drivers will not use any fuel during their daily commutes.
That IS green.
Sure other cars are more efficient in EV mode, but if you meet or beat the Prius, you’ve bettered all production ICE and hybrid vehicles.
Oct 20th, 2011 (1:07 pm)And, at what cost for EV-mode?
65kWh/100 miles = $11.50 (where I live in PA @ .177/kWh – we have no TOU rates)
Prius 100miles = 2 gallons = $6.98 @ 3.49/gal
100 miles in my Mazda6 @ 26mpg = $13.40
It’s green, but weedy.
Volt = 30kWh/100 miles = $5.31 (@ .177) which is less than 1/2 that of the Karma.
And the Karma is made in Europe, so it’s an import (US-owned company, like Apple, with products made overseas). I’m not really bitter – I just don’t yet see the business model being something long-term (yet). A lot of hope in their business model. Let’s see how the Nina pans out and that is the linch-pin of this company. They cannot survive on Karma/Surf alone.
Oct 20th, 2011 (1:22 pm)I’ve always seen kWh/kg referred to as energy density or specific energy and kW/kg as power density or specific energy. At some point it’s just semantics so I don’t think I’d mention terminology unless it was confusing. Probably kWh/kg and kW/kg would be the clearest but I’m thinking most folks couldn’t relate to that.
Anyway, we understand what we’re talking about so no big deal. FWIW the A123 batteries have all the benefits and drawbacks of the underlying LFP chemistry. Very stable with great cycle life and great power density but with mediocre energy density. They could of course change the appeal by upping the kWh/kg, but compared to a battery with LG Chem’s anode and separator and Envia’s cathode then they start looking positively not great.
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (1:25 pm)I would not say dumb as the buyer now gets 8-12 MPG and likes the look of this car.
Remember that Pagini (sp) just came out with a new model at 1.2 M (base price) and went to the Pebble Beach car show and sold 12.
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (1:37 pm)I agree with your points, not disagreeing at all, but your reference to the availability of eco alternatives brings up a good point. The first question is: Is any $100,000 vehicle anything but conspicuous consumption aka a toy? Even if it doubled the EV range and MPG numbers its price would still prevent it from being an eco-alternative for 99% of the population.
Even the Volt isn’t an eco-alternative for even 50% of the population, though it’s a lot better. I think statik did a piece on a study which showed only about 7% of car buyers could afford an ICE version of the Volt. If you look at TCO with tax credits and fuel savings and so forth, then I think you could argue the Volt starts getting to the 50% range. That still means it’s not an eco-alternative for at least 50% of the population and a bigger issue is that, given the lack of public charging infrastructure, it’s more limited than that because you have to have a place to plug it in, eliminating people living in apartments and condos.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the Volt is a great start. But we have a long way to go before we have eco alternatives for everyone.
Oct 20th, 2011 (1:40 pm)Tesla is licensing technology and selling carbon credits. Someone like Porshe probably will need some! LOL But yes, you can’t see them surviving on cars manufacture alone.
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (1:46 pm)Sounds like they need to make more, then we will really see the sales #’s & demand for these vehicles. 2012 should be interesting. I think even if GM makes 60K of them, they will all sell out. I do understand their cautiousness though.
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (1:47 pm)I love my Volt and in 4200 miles I have used 2.4 gal of gas but I don’t see why all the negative comments.
I think we would want Fisker to succeed so they will pay back the Gov. money and create jobs in our good ol USA making newer versions.
The guy buying this will probably improve his MPGE in a big way so what is not to like. 52 mpge is not bad as opposed to the 24 mpg of your Tahoe. Are you truly getting 24 in your driving or ? I have a Lexus GS that is rated at 19/27 and I mostly drive in town and get about 17mpg.
I would like all to make the choice as what they would drive as I hope to have a CTSV sitting next to my Volt.
Oct 20th, 2011 (1:58 pm)That’s basically how I feel. It pretty much does what they were aiming for; a performance EV that will take care or your daily travel needs, and if needed, it has a range extender. I would never buy this car, but not because I think they pulled a bait & switch, because its not what I want (and too $$$). IMO they are delivering what they said they would.
Oct 20th, 2011 (2:03 pm)Density is a measurement per volume. Shouldn’t it be KWh/in^3 ?
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (2:03 pm)flmark,
Sickening? Really?
It’s great that you bought a Chevy Volt, but don’t get all “high and mighty” about your choice. If others can afford, and prefer, a larger, touring sedan with gorgeous curves, why must you be a hater?
All entrants into this market space advance the cause, and the vast variety of these configurations attempt to reach every corner of society, even those at whom you look down your nose.
+3
Oct 20th, 2011 (2:06 pm)All you early adopters need T-shirts that say “We are the 50%”
(oops.. didn’t mean to get political)
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (2:17 pm)#29
Same answer, LOL.
Oct 20th, 2011 (2:23 pm)#30
Totally true, but it’s gotta start somewhere. “A journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step”.
I take a certain satisfaction in knowing the people like us are taking that step, whether it makes any financial sense at this point or not.
Oct 20th, 2011 (2:33 pm)Yes.
Besides not doing jack rabbit starts and all the common sense answers to driving smart, the two mode system that GM created makes it real easy to choose the optimum speed to get the best gas mileage. You simply set the display to tell you when you shift to 8 cylinders and then back off the throttle a bit (and use cruise control) & then keep watching to make sure you don’t go to 8 cylinders (except on hills). The resulting speed is 66-68 mph. When in 4 cylinder mode, the Tahoe Hybrid likes to settle at 24-26 mpg. I just drove from FL to NY. 1500 miles and 24.3 mpg. Around town, I get 23 point something. Of course, you will not get these numbers if you drive at 75 mph and are the first one away from the stop light.
Oct 20th, 2011 (2:52 pm)Surprised you reacted this way. No arrogance whatsoever in my statements. And I have no Volt yet.
The ‘sickening’ comment has more to do with the extravagant price tag. When I can get an eco commuter AND an eco hauler for the same price tag, it is foolish and self absorbed to waste resources in such a fashion. I don’t care if we are talking Karmas or Dooney & Bourke handbags, exorbitant price tags scream, ‘look at me’ and validate the ‘camel through the eye of a needle’ concept. Yes, there is much to be said about ‘you get what you pay for’, but most folks know when the idea falls apart. The TV is full of celebrities who have so much money, they pay 100x what something is worth just because they can. ‘Conspicuous consumption’ is a phrase that seems to fit.
‘Green washing’ is alive and well. Just stick a badge on the back and feel smug. Use the regen and ‘mild hybrid’ to get MORE PERFORMANCE instead of SAVING ENERGY. Yes, I do look down my nose at such mentality- but don’t worry, their already looking down their nose at me anyway!!!
-13
Oct 20th, 2011 (3:11 pm)(click to show comment)
+12
Oct 20th, 2011 (3:16 pm)OK, I now think you’ve really crossed a line. Personal attacks??? This kind of crap is the reason, I left, and stopped participating in other forums, until I got to this one.
Values, philosophy, AND theistic viewpoint all attacked in one fell swoop…now THAT is SICKENING.
And you don’t even know that I’m a Christian, other than the analogy I used. You are a judgmental A$$!!
-13
Oct 20th, 2011 (3:30 pm)(click to show comment)
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (3:35 pm)Gee! You Fisker-bashers sound like the Volt-bashers of 18 months ago!
Oct 20th, 2011 (4:02 pm)It seems to me that this won’t really sell, even if it does offer a good eco-comparison to other ultra luxury cars. In my estimation, people who can afford this car want to be seen as generally green, not just green when compared to – say an E-class. The Escalade hybrid gets great mileage when compared to other SUVs and is great for its purpose, but celebrity types don’t show up in those to show off green cred either.
Just my 2 cents…
Oct 20th, 2011 (4:15 pm)California-based startup automaker Fisker will be delaying the introduction of its second extended range electric car, known as “Project Nina,” according to a report in the News-Journal of Wilmington, Delaware.
The $47,500 compact sports sedan was set to enter production at a former General Motors facility in Wilmington in 2012, but the start date has now been pushed to mid-2013.
Oct 20th, 2011 (4:29 pm)I say “welcome to the party”.
Its not really a Volt issue, as I doubt anyone would cross shop a $40,000 and a $100,000 car.
Seems like it would be more direct competition to the Tesla Roadster or Model S (sort of a high end version of the Volt/Leaf comparisons).
Competition is good, keeps the front runners from getting complacent and spurs innovation in the under dogs. Bring it!
-1
Oct 20th, 2011 (4:56 pm)I just have to ask why you think you know better what others should need or WANT than they do?
Sounds like a very liberal Goverment type that wants more of our money to spread around as they know better where it should be spent.
They would probably say you only need 2 econoboxes and
no SUV’s.
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (5:01 pm)I love the fisker, I love the volt more. Anyone see Ashton Kutcher driving the karma on the second episode of 2 and a half men this season? He plugged it pretty hard. Don’t know if it was paid or not. 50 million viewers saw it there.
If I could I’d have both in my garage.
Oct 20th, 2011 (5:08 pm)I dunno, i bet there’s a lot of rich people that want a cool car, green or not. I dont think all the Telsa owners were thinking about the environment when they bought theirs. The Fisker has the advantage of the range extender, but it doesn’t have the performance #’s of the Tesla. a tradeoff.
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (5:12 pm)That’s why i like to say “I’ll believe it when I see it”. By 2013 everyone else including GM will have avanced their tech. Maybe Fisker is just waiting for battery costs to come down or the numbers to make sense. What else would cause a 1 year delay?
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (5:13 pm)Just James Cameron
+3
Oct 20th, 2011 (5:21 pm)Do I think designer handbags should be outlawed? No. Do I agree with banning catalytic converters and incandescent light bulbs? Yes. The world succeeds in an environment where we all have freedom of choice. However, freedom of choice has no more relevance to racial preference in job hiring than it does to wasting society’s resources. I must say I now enjoy visiting restaurants where I was once loath to go, except for government intervention to tell smokers that they can’t pollute my air. You can go to any extreme you want to try and justify why you think I have it in for your ‘choices’, but no matter what you do, you extrapolate my comments to get to that point. There are too many extremists in the world. I am not one of them. However, by spinning my comments to the extent you have, you do indeed appear to be one.
Oct 20th, 2011 (5:27 pm)I am not really impressed by these numbers, it is not efficient on electricity and not on gas. For $95,900-plus you should get a full electric 250-300 mile range car. For instance a Tesla Model S and hopefully more to come.
+4
Oct 20th, 2011 (5:35 pm)Jason M. Hendler,
If you feel like quoting biblical scripture, there are other forums, unrelated to automobiles, where that is appropriate.
I, too, have opinions on you. I will not discuss them as they do not advance the discussion of automobiles, clean energy or resource conservation.
In reference to the topic AT HAND, I PERSONALLY FEEL that the Karma is overpriced and underdelivering in the realm of clean energy and resource conservation. I actually looked forward to another option in this electric arena, but TODAY’S TOPIC is clearly about how DRASTICALLY its energy numbers fail to deliver.
You have gone WAY off topic to personally attack me, not just for opinions today, but apparently for everything I have written in the past. I admit to not being able to be very objective at the moment, but I think you come off looking like a real boob much of the time and this exchange epitomizes that.
Moving on…
+6
Oct 20th, 2011 (5:52 pm)Yes, let’s move on. Thanks for starting to calm down, Mark.
Jason, I would respectfully ask that you please calm down as well.
Let’s return to our normally scheduled topic, Fisker, . . . and the Volt!
I have owned my Volt for seven months now, and it has never “failed to deliver!”
I thought about starting a new program – “Have you hugged your Volt today?” What do you think? Catchy?
MichaelH
#1761
in New Mexico
Oct 20th, 2011 (5:53 pm)The Magnum Hemi does 23 highway when in semi-Hemi (Cylinder deactivation) mode at around the same mph (60 to 65). In town it’s 16 though. It’s not a hybrid by any stretch.
This is why I’m so interested in Voltec technology. The powertrain could theoretically jump through hoops and still yield really good economy numbers when not in play mode.
Oct 20th, 2011 (6:25 pm)Agreed. I am quick to point out, when folks ask, that the hybrid portion of the Tahoe is responsible for good around town mileage, and cylinder deactivation is the driver for good highway mileage. I am hoping that the next generation Tahoe comes with a plug. If they simply replace the current volume of old tech batteries with more energy dense lithium, you’d think they could at least match the PIP promise of a dozen EV miles and/or electricity-assisted highway miles. The Volt is great, but a lot of folks have more stuff and/or more family members than it can accommodate.
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (6:26 pm)I agree with Don in regards to the A123 vs. LG Chem choice. GM bit the bullet and chose the best battery technology for the Volt. I’m a big A123 fan and in a choice such as my Go-Ped scooter, the pricepoint of LifePo4 is affordable vs. lithium ion. Lithium ion still is the big dog for scooters so it makes sense that the Fisker’s pack fell short.
A123′s LifePo4 might be the best choice for BEVs though being that the pricepoint is the main issue.
Bring on the ELR – This race is heating up and it’s ever more interesting seeing how it plays out!
RECHARGE! ,
James
Oct 20th, 2011 (6:47 pm)Usually called … volume density. It’s usually measured in Wh/liter or Wh/dm^3. By and large I don’t think this is such a big deal because the current batteries are OK on this measure, and once you solve the packaging problems for the current batteries the volume density goes up with the energy density.
Yup, James Cameron and I have an average family income of $175,000! LOL
Oct 20th, 2011 (7:00 pm)If I could afford a Fisker, I would get one. It looks like what a 4-door Corvette might look like. Porsche has a 4-door sports car now. So does Aston Martin. I would love a VOLTEC 4-Door Corvette. That would be cruisin’ in style !!!
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (7:22 pm)I wish Fully Charge was an official TV show like Top Gear and then maybe in someways that EV haters could get there minds in someways cleared and think twice what electric cars are all about and it would also be more interesting to see every aspect of the cars when it comes to there features, what’s under the hood, how to charge an EV, what the interior looks like, how much torque and horsepower there is and yes they should also mention what kind of advantages it has over horsepower and even prove an EV can out speed a gas vehicle for the first few seconds and last but not least they should also show the car as well on the outside while there driving in the city or country and other things as well so that the average car buyer knows before what he or she is going to look at or what he or she wants to buy before wanting an EV so there well prepared.
Oct 20th, 2011 (7:33 pm)#52
Yup. +1
“I’m from Missouri”
Oct 20th, 2011 (7:35 pm)#54
Yup. +1 Of course I agreed with you in the first place, LOL.
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (7:37 pm)#57
Amen. +1
Oct 20th, 2011 (7:40 pm)#62
If that’s a sports car, I’m Sebastian Vettel. I told everybody I knew that they’d never sell, hahahahahahah!
Oct 20th, 2011 (8:16 pm)Technically they call it a 4-door sports Porshe. LOL And technically it has five doors!
Oct 20th, 2011 (8:23 pm)In fact – Did anybody catch Dan Neil, Wall Street Journal automotive editor, Pulitzer Prize winner and member of the The Car Show TV cast hugging the Volt on the show?
I presumed if they covered the Volt, Adam Carolla would smear it – but….guess what? He didn’t! In fact, they had a Volt on set and, in respect of Dan Neil’s glowing report of the car – they actually restrained themselves, but for saying mostly rich people buy electric cars.
Too bad nobody watches the show on Speed TV, since it’s a poor imitation of Top Gear using a second-hand set. They cut the show’s time slot in half and fired NBA great John Salley – so at least the cast now consists of only gearheads.
VOLT, IT’S MORE FREEDOM THAN ELECTRIC! ,
James
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (8:42 pm)Just remember what awful numbers they came up with for the Volt? I don’t get 25 miles per charge, I get 43. I don’t get 35 MPG in cs mode, I get over 40. So take the EPA numbers with a grain of salt. The real life numbers are probably much better.
Take Care,
TED
+3
Oct 20th, 2011 (8:43 pm)Here’s a quote from a Fisker Karma handraiser that I found on Jalopnik:
[ " I ordered this car because I wanted an eco-friendly ride that didn't suck. But this car isn't seeming so eco-friendly right now since my Aston gets the same MPG on gas. Plus, the crappy tires that wear out in a year, and the 0-60 has been downgraded to 6.3 seconds. It just gets worse and worse every day that this drags on... sooo... disappointed. " ]
You can’t blame the guy since the Karma, at 5,300 lbs. with it’s 22kwh pack, and 20 mpg on gas with the heavy GM lump under the hood… can’t make up for it’s chic interior and sexy styling. Remember, this thing is $97-98 grand! Seriously – a Panamera hybrid has the Porsche history, service network and reputation going for it. It sounds like this guy will be asking for his deposit back.
Fisker has to do better than this to survive until the Nina can duke it out with the Volt and ELR.
RECHARGE! ,
James
Oct 20th, 2011 (9:05 pm)I agree, Ted, but remember that Fisker now has to use these EPA numbers in their literature and ads. The Volt gets the EPA stats plastered about the media too – of course, us enthusiasts know how conservative the numbers are. It’s still just sinking in to a lot of Leaf customers and testers that they will not see the 100 mile AER Nissan has been touting, nor the EPA numbers either. What with all these inconsistencies, the consumer doesn’t know what to think! All-in-all, Fisker looks as if it over-promised and under-delivered. Not good when the car costs what it does.
It’s tough for these new cars on the block. Perception is 9/10ths of the rule. Fisker is a new-unknown in the car industry. Sure, some wealthy folk will want it for it’s collectibility, or it’s uniqueness amongst all the Bentley Coupes and Mercedes SLs in Hollywood. But in this market there are so many competitor’s for the rich person’s dollar ( $100,000-$130,000 price range ) the Fisker seems a longshot at best, and it’s lost much of it’s green luster.
Look for Fisker to be on life support soon as it’s $530 million government handout has run out. Fisker has said it has $1 billion in the kitty, but nobody knows for sure if that is true at this juncture.
RECHARGE! ,
James
+3
Oct 20th, 2011 (10:04 pm)One way GM plans to sell the Chevy Sonic to the young generation.
Oct 20th, 2011 (10:39 pm)While that may be so – if the overall goal is to increase plug-in adoption, I think any plugin would be useful. Just as an “overpriced” Tesla Roadster actually helped the plug-in cause. Infact even a CARB play like Mini-E has helped it quite a bit.
+1
Oct 20th, 2011 (11:40 pm)ABC News reports on Fisker raising suspicion about the company (in the article I mentioned Ormisher had just spoken to them before he talked to me. I hadn’t actually named ABC and another big name, just called them media outlets, but he did.) – Here’s what ABC wrote –
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/car-company-us-loan-builds-cars-finland/story?id=14770875
+2
Oct 20th, 2011 (11:45 pm)As I commented here early this morning, the bottom line for me is that the Volt SS would be my clear choice over the Karma even if their MSRPs were the same. It seems almost everyone here is inclined to agree. Therefore, as the “witching hour” approaches, I’ll offer as a photographic night
-cap the Volt SS (actually, the Volt Z-spec Concept) with a distinctive blacked-out grill and wheels (and hopefully, enhanced acceleration and handling). Sweet dreams, everyone…
+1
Oct 21st, 2011 (12:33 am)Energy (watt hours) = Power (watts) x Time (hours).
Energy Capacity = how much energy the battery will hold (watt hours).
Energy Density = how much energy can be stored in a given size battery (usually Wh/kg).
Peak Power = maximum about of power that can be drained from the battery (watts).
Oct 21st, 2011 (3:03 am)I can’t say much about the CS Mode MPG because I rarely use CS Mode, but I can tell you that the CD Mode number of 35 miles of EV range (not 25) is very close. I get between 38-40 but that’s under more or less ideal conditions, pretty easy driving and more or less ideal temperatures. I think when you take a range of regions into consideration and both winter as well as summer driving into accout, the EPA estimates will prove quite accurate overall.
Oct 21st, 2011 (11:52 pm)that may be the gab from fisker, but i suspect that in the real world, the karma is going to be compared against the tesla model s, in which case i believe that the karma loses out in price, performance and has no advantage in range (although a model s with a 300 mile range is probably a significant cost upgrade). in any event, when compared to the model s, why would someone buy a karma? on the downside, recharging a tesla model s for 300 miles of range is likely to take a very long time unless you have a very high power 240v outlet.
if that is what you are holding out for, then i suspect that you won’t be driving a volt any time soon. chevrolet is not in the business of making custom cars on request for each person’s individual tastes. there once was a time when detroit followed the alfred sloan model and tried to individualize cars (in the 1980′s there were over 70,000 possible ordering configurations for the ford thunderbird) but today detroit more closely follows the henry ford model.
Oct 22nd, 2011 (12:15 am)from reports that i have seen, the epa numbers for the volt seem to be pretty good. that’s not to say that it isn’t possible to achieve better numbers, but the epa numbers do seem to be realistic ones.
Oct 25th, 2011 (10:43 am)Telsa kicks Karma!!!
Did you guys expect the Karma to be economical? I am surprised by the EPA numbers but I don’t think they will hurt sales that much.
I am shocked to hear that the Telsa blows away the Karma 0-60. Now that is News! If you are gonna build an electric sportscar — make sure it’s the fastest, or at least reasonably fast. 6 second 0-60? 6.3??! Jeesh!
Hmm, Volt SS you say?
Oct 26th, 2011 (2:03 pm)I’m not as down as I used to be on the 35 mile number because it manages expectations but I’ve driven 34.8 miles with the cruise at 70mph and the AC on (ECO). The EPA number is supposed to represent a combined range. I seldom drop below 45 miles anticipated total in a given day of suburban driving in reasonable temps. The winter remains a question mark.
The EV truth is that you’re going to see big range swings since you’re fully exposed to the true cost of HVAC (heat being “free” in an ICE car and AC representing a greater percentage of the energy cost of moving an EV). Given that, the conservative approach is probably a better one. Look at all the drama when CR reported 25 miles in the dead of a CT winter. Compared to EPA, that range drop is barely worse than the swing Prius owners report summer-to-winter but it was a Big Deal to many.