Aug 09

Ford delays Focus Electric launch in 17 markets

 

Without explanation, Ford has quietly pushed back the launch of its pending 2012 Focus EV until spring 2012, except for the states of New York and California.

Initial plans were to launch in 19 markets by the end of 2011 and the company has been promoting the model right up to last week when Ford CEO Alan Mulally plugged the vehicle on the David Letterman Show.

The reported delay is based on a promo ad in which Ford said the Focus Electric will be “Coming in spring 2012.”


This ad shows the 2012 launch date.

An email attributed to Ford’s Electrified Vehicles Marketing Manager, David Finnegan on MyFocusElectric.com spelled it out as well:

“For the first few months of production, we will be concentrating on California and New York. Our dealers in those areas will be the first to have their retail orders scheduled and receive the Focus Electric. We will be rolling out to the remainder of our initial markets starting in Spring 2012, including Raleigh/Durham. Does that help?”

This news comes also after Ford announced in June that it would triple U.S. production of “electrified” vehicles from 35,000 to over 100,000 by 2013.

The Focus Electric will be the first “electrified” vehicle to use a lithium-ion battery, and is one of several plug-in or battery-electric models known to be pending for the next few years, including the C-Max Hybrid, C-Max Energi. The Transit Connect already debuted at the end of 2010, and Ford has said it will announce at least another plug-in vehicle.

To attempt to learn more, we put in an email to a Ford media rep in charge of the Focus, but he did not reply. This lack of response by Ford was reported by other publications yesterday, so it is anyone’s guess why the delay.

It could be that by tentatively dipping its toes in the water first in New York and California, two of the most EV-embracing states in the country, Ford is simply being cautious. If so, it is being even more cautious than were Chevrolet and Nissan when they launched the Volt and LEAF in several states to start with.

It could also be supply chain issues, though we have no information on this.

As things stand, Ford has not retracted intentions to ultimately launch the Focus Electric in the United States nationwide.

Its amended plans are to have launched the Focus Electric first in New York and California, and by spring 2012 availability will include: Atlanta, Austin, Boston, Chicago, Denver, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, New York, Orlando, Phoenix, Portland, Raleigh Durham, Richmond, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle, Tucson and Washington, D.C.

The Detroit Bureau

This entry was posted on Tuesday, August 9th, 2011 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 89


  1. 1
    Chris C

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (6:56 am)

    The more electrics the better! Get them on the road!


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    flmark

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (7:23 am)

    …all those grand announcements…of all those EVs that were supposed to be coming out shortly…
    Makes me wonder about the (possible/probable?) flow of announcements about other delays, from other car makers.
    The Volt may be the only real choice for quite some time.


  3. 3
    Jim I

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (7:27 am)

    They are going to launch by cities? That is even worse than GM launching the Volt in only seven states!!!

    IMHO, that is just dumb. All it does is make the early adopters unhappy. Even GM conceded that their initial roll out was too cautious.

    Now if it is a supply issue, then just say so.


  4. 4
    Mark Z

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (7:49 am)

    Since Ford is not announcing the reason, one can only guess unless someone has inside information.

    The vehicle will be shipped to CA and NY, so it could be limited production.

    Since the Volt has not shipped to all Chevy dealerships, maybe Ford doesn’t want to be first in some of the markets listed in the article.

    Since the Ford Focus Electric has a range of about 100 miles, there is a need for charge stations. A dealer should pre-qualify a buyer to make sure that they know the limitations. Ford might want to be cautious with the limited driving range issue.

    GM chose SPX to help with charge station installs. It took time for SPX to find qualified electricians willing to work with customers, electric companies, city planning departments, and wait for payment from SPX after the work was completed and approved. While I doubt that could be a reason, it deserves a mention as a slight possibility.

    No matter the reason, at least they are getting the Focus Electric to market. Patience is a virtue, so it might be best to take it slow for a first generation vehicle. After a successful launch of EV’s by many manufacturers, the competition should result in a better product and pricing for everyone.


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    Schmeltz

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (8:04 am)

    A like Ford as a company alot. Under Mullally they’ve made a lot of positive progression. (Here comes the “but”). BUT, I can’t help but point out the obvious disparity between GM and almost any other company when it comes to media treatment. If this was GM making an announcement to set back a deadline instead of Ford, then the pundits would be shouting from every hill and burning the GM logo in effigy. Just saying.

    Ford has been cautious, maybe to the extent of being overly-cautious with their EV and PHEV models. I guess we can’t be too critical as a poorly done EV will do more to hurt our cause than simply a late to the party EV.


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    Eco_Turbo

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (8:24 am)

    Maybe Ford is looking for a place to stick a range extender on the Focus. 8-)


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    pavers123

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (9:19 am)

    Part of me is happy and joyous about this as it underscores and validates the Volt as the clear pack leader in spite of what some Ford-fans have been shoving in my face.

    That said, as an American it also saddens me. We need more EVs on the road to lessen our dependance on foreign oil, oil wars, and back door diplomacy. This timeline did seem a bit aggressive from the get go, but I figured if anyone could pull it off, Ford could. I have to wonder what they’re saying over in the Focus EV forums.


  8. 8
    evnow

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (9:29 am)

    This lack of response by Ford was reported by other publications yesterday, so it is anyone’s guess why the delay.

    Well, Ford did respond – but they spun the news as – there has been no delay.

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/08/ford-most-focus-electric-cars-coming-in-2012/1

    But Ford moved today to dispel the perception bouncing around the web that this represents a delay in the Focus Electric’s rollout.

    On Monday, Ford said Finnegan’s remarks did not mean the electric vehicle, which will be built at Ford’s Wayne, Mich., assembly plant, has been delayed.

    “Ford remains on schedule to deliver the initial Focus Electrics by the end of the year. As previously communicated to dealers, the first few months of Focus Electric production will be concentrated on delivering vehicles to California and New York,” Ford said in a statement. “We will be rolling out to the remainder of the initial Focus Electric markets starting with production ramp up in Spring 2012.”

    Note that back in November when Ford announced the list cities it will launch Focus EV in – every media outlet reported that the launch in all the cities will be in late 2011. Ford didn’t correct any of those stories to say ony CA & NY will get cars in 2011, rest in Spring of 2012.


  9. 9
    DonC

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (10:02 am)

    Let’s not get too excited by a few month’s delay. Given this is a new product and Ford needs to ensure there are no major QC issues AND that the distribution network understands the product and how to sell and service the product, it makes sense to roll it out in a limited and focused way. This is more or less what GM and Nissan did.

    The only issue with Ford is the final numbers. Does anyone know if Ford had made public its production figures for the EV Focus? I haven’t seen one and I’m getting the impression it’s going to be a very small figure. We’ve got some tepid efforts from Toyota and Honda and Ford’s efforts are looking similar.


  10. 10
    Shawn Marshall

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (10:04 am)

    EV fans, Did Ford Focus?
    Can they AfFord to EVER Focus?
    Who knows? Time will tell.


  11. 11
    Jeff Cobb

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (10:04 am)

    evnow,

    I am not entirely convinced yet of the plausibility of this assertion. Even if it is true Ford told its dealers one thing, and media have widely reported another some time ago, all this time Ford had an opportunity to correct the alleged misreporting.

    The fact also stands my email with a link of the story posted on another site was not answered yesterday to the Focus Electric rep who I have communicated with prior.

    If they wanted to do damage control, they should have had an answer. I still have not received an answer.

    One time a few months ago several publications and this one had a detail wrong about Volt production – Rob Peterson called my cell phone that day and GM contacted each media outlet that posted the story incorrectly besides.

    In response to his request, I issued a same-day correction.

    Yesterday, even on deadline ready to post the story, other reputable media also reported they got the silent treatment from Ford when asked about this purported delay in 17 markets.

    Today Ford implies media are at fault, and “Ford moved today to dispel the perception bouncing around the web … “


  12. 12
    evnow

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (10:30 am)

    Jeff Cobb:
    Today Ford implies media are at fault, and “Ford moved today to dispel the perception bouncing around the web … ”

    Yes – Ford is trying to spin as if this has been the plan all along. I’ve not got any replies to my mail about the story either. Infact my guess is if I hadn’t noticed the comment in that low traffic focus forum thread – the story would not have been out. It is possible, the marketing person made a mistake in communicate this via e-mail. May be Ford wanted to announce this much later in a controlled way, possibly with the announcement of the price.

    Here is the original PR about 11 markets Focus EV would launch in.

    http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=33570

    Not even a hint about CA & NY being early compared to others.

    BTW, the other thing I’ve heard from a fellow EV enthusiast is that Ford isn’t getting the drive train from Magna anymore. Any news of that ?


  13. 13
    T 1

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (10:45 am)

    With oil having quickly fallen 20% and the threat of the US and Europe economies tanking, being cautious with such a vehicle is understandable. Maybe there’s no connection, but they presumably have a planning department for a reason…


  14. 14
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    Aug 9th, 2011 (10:45 am)

    evnow,

    No news. At the moment I am working on other stuff.

    FYI, I tried to establish a dialogue between the rep and us over a month ago and he effectively asked Why is the need for info so pressing now? You can look it all up on the media site …

    You’d think Ford would like to insert a Focus story on a site dominated by GM EV fans …

    He did say he’d put us on his distro list when they had news, and since the basics had been covered here already, I dropped the story.


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    N Riley

     

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (10:50 am)

    If this is true, then the “rest of the country” will get availability sometime in 2013. A little too late for my needs. Nissan has informed me that I can now schedule a time for the charger installation review and order my Leaf. I am not yet sure I want to proceed. I was hoping Ford would let the Focus out into the “wild” so I could really compare the two. But you know how plans turn out.


  16. 16
    James

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (10:56 am)

    Hey, it’s an EV. Battery supplies are limited for now. Everyone is watching the Leaf and just what happens to it’s early adopters. With Focus EV Ford proves something – that it can counter Nissan or any major manufacturer with a similar technology in a year’s time – FOR WHAT IT’S WORTH. What is it worth? I cannot tell you. To me I say ” big deal! “- as here is an American Leaf without the trunk space! The current trend in media is to call EVs “plug ins”. This is extremely confusing to the public as they don’t have much time to decipher “plug in” from “plug in hybrid”, EREV, PHEV…etc.. Brace yourself for the flood of “plug in found on the road dead” stories which will mean great water cooler fodder and cheap news bits for the sharks. Public perception is huge for the future of any car tech that touts the use of electricity. My fear is this could be the downfall of credible successful modalities, namely the Chevy Volt and Voltec.

    Now we have to give Ford credit – they’re stretching, it shows, but they’re trying. The upcoming 2013 C-Max Energi is an interesting vehicle, yet pundits keep telling the media it has a 500 mile range, “much longer than the Chevrolet Volt”, claiming a better charge-sustaining range than Volt, but no one is telling us how far it can go on electricity alone. It’s beginning to sound like a shell game. It gives Ford talking points – but how long can talk and only talk make news? What we know so far is that this Focus-based mini SUV will seat five and use a lithium ion battery. Ford tells us that, unlike Volt, their plug in hybrid will have a “mid range” wherein both electric drive and gas engine will be blended. We’ll have to see if the result of all of this is just a standard Ford HSD with an ability to drive all electric in low torque situations for 5-10 miles – or what.

    All-in-all, Ford AINT GOT NO CHEVY VOLT – and in my book, nothing even close on the horizon. This only proves GM has a big lead and should capitalize with a five seat crossover Voltec ASAP.

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTECS! ,

    James


  17. 17
    Noel Park

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (11:17 am)

    T 1: With oil having quickly fallen 20% and the threat of the US and Europe economies tanking, being cautious with such a vehicle is understandable.

    #13

    “No guts, no glory”


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    Noel Park

     

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (11:24 am)

    Maybe they think that NY and CA have the largest concentrations of commuters who live within the range capabilities. Particularly NYC and LA. LA has to be electric car heaven, with its temperate climate and totally car dominated commuting culture.

    Or maybe they have just realized the huge concentration of highly intelligent “early adopters” in CA, hahahahahaha!


  19. 19
    evnow

     

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (11:45 am)

    James: Brace yourself for the flood of “plug in found on the road dead” stories …

    So after all these months you still think BEVs will be found dead on the road ? Talk about perceptions …


  20. 20
    evnow

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (11:47 am)

    Noel Park: Maybe they think that NY and CA have the largest concentrations of commuters who live within the range capabilities.Particularly NYC and LA.LA has to be electric car heaven, with its temperate climate and totally car dominated commuting culture.

    I actually think, southern CA is not a great place for BEVs. Too many people have long commutes at high speeds.


  21. 21
    James

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (12:29 pm)

    evnow: So after all these months you still think BEVs will be found dead on the road ? Talk about perceptions …

    It’s inevitable. EV fans know EVs – like you, they’d never over-extend their range…Armed with sliderules, graphs, computers and calculations, they know from experience the limitations and capabilities of their machines. EV enthusiasts are willing to put up with the inconveniences of owning an EV. The average person is not. Unfortunately the general public who see an EV as a chance to be “green” are not EV experts. Not everyone who buys a pure BEV works 20 miles away and never strays beyond city limits. It’s proven that BEVs are a true 2nd or 3rd or 4th car option. Until a BEV can go as far as a Tesla Roadster for $25,000 or under, they’re gonna prove the general public does not undestand the subtleties of pure electric driving. Subtleties like a “100 mile” EV having a true range of about 50-60 in cold weather. Subtleties like 100 mile range literally meaning 70 if you use HVAC or audio. Subtleties like no ability to be spontaneous. Subleties like not using the climate control or radio or having full power to squeeze out that last 2 miles to home and the outlet. At the Leaf demo I attended the Nissan employee stated that they were planning to implement mobile charge vehicles to give people who’ve been stranded a boost!

    One not need to go further than reviews of Nissan’s Leaf by journalists who’ve been given one for a week to see how an average person deals with those subtle limitations of an EV which, generally, are not so subtle. EV buyers will soon realize the limitations of their purchase and undoubtedley vent their frustrations. In today’s world, when a tech product does not live up to it’s hype or promise – the results are readily available online. My point was – the press really gobbles up this stuff – it’s what they live for.

    Again, this is why Voltecs and Fisker EREVs are absolute genius. They take into consideration the realities of human behaviour and expectation. Their biggest enemy is perception. They’re oft perceived as pure EVs.

    You should realize I am a big EV fan. I am an enthusiast. To me, I walk into pure BEV ownership with eyes wide open – You and I are the exceptions.

    RECHARGE! ,

    James


  22. 22
    Noel Park

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (12:58 pm)

    evnow: I actually think, southern CA is not a great place for BEVs. Too many people have long commutes at high speeds.

    #20

    Well maybe, but there are such a sheer number of commuters that there is still a huge potential market for those whose commute patterns DO work. For example, I talked to a guy last weekend who drives a Leaf. He lives in Manhattan Beach and works downtown. He was extremely happy with the Leaf. A huge plus in SoCal is that the Leaf can get a drive by yourself in the HOV lane sticker, which the Volt currently cannot.

    When you have 14+ million people living in a 4 county area, it would only take a VERY small percentage to sell out the whole year’s production of Focuses. Not that I would ever buy one you understand. I’m just sayin’…….


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    Dave K.

     

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:20 pm)

    Haven’t seen a LEAF yet here in So Calif.

    One guy at the gym said he finally saw one in the wild last week. I wish Ford well with the E-Focus.

    Have you seen the BYD taxi? Warren Buffet’s Berkshire Hathaway just invested a huge sum into car manufacturing and battery making in China. He is actually building his own battery factory in Schezuan China.

    BYD-e6-taxi450web.jpg

    No Plug, No Sale!


  24. 24
    Loboc

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:22 pm)

    I think the slow roll is pretty much the same for all manufacturers of EVs. The market is relatively small especially with low gasoline prices and higher costs for battery-supplemented drive.

    We may think that $1 more than last year for gas is outrageous, but, relative to other energy sources, gas is still pretty cheap.

    It makes perfect sense to not be the first guy on the block this time. As each manufacturer gets their production ramped up at whatever speed makes sense economically, the others will follow just as slowly.

    Once we have real choices out in the market (on dealer lots, not just in the press) I think people will start to warm up to a different way of doing things.


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    DonC

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:26 pm)

    evnow: So after all these months you still think BEVs will be found dead on the road ? Talk about perceptions …

    I was very surprised by how often this happened with the Leaf. I didn’t believe that anyone would be so crazy to literally believe the range showing on the dashboard. Turns out I was ever so wrong. It happened a lot. I think there were a few journalists and a few Leaf owners who ended up stranded plus a slew of close calls.

    It seems we’re seeing this less since Nissan changed the software to give more of a buffer, but bricking an EV by the side of the road can happen so long as people see 30 miles of EV range remaining on their dashboards and assume they can go 29 miles to grandma’s without a problem. Range calculation simply can’t be that precise with so many variables.

    Nissan marketing also shares some of the blame for keeping this idea alive. Claiming that the Leaf had a 100 mile range was definitely pushing the envelope. Realistically the Leaf doesn’t have a 100 mile range but unfortunately some people believed the overstatements and ended up having to call for a tow.


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    DonC

     

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:31 pm)

    Dave K.: Haven’t seen a LEAF yet here in So Calif.

    Must be because you live in “northern” SoCal! LOL

    I see a few, Interestingly I see about the same number or fewer Leafs as I see Volts, which is kinda strange because there should be more Leafs around. I think more than 30 people at Qualcomm have Leafs, and I’d assume a lot of those people live near me.


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    jeffhre

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:31 pm)

    evnow: I actually think, southern CA is not a great place for BEVs. Too many people have long commutes at high speeds.

    High speeds, no. Congestion, yes. And sure a million drivers have long commutes. And that’s terrible, especially for BEV’s. But there are another 5 million with shorter commutes as well.


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    Steverino

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:36 pm)

    I wonder if that Volt hater who loves to push the “no demand for Volts” lie in his articles on FoxNation will now proclaim the Ford Focus EV as a failure due to Ford’s pull-back on market availability? Probably not, as I think this guy just wants GM to fail.

    By the way, I noticed that after some factual and pro-Volt comments were posted on his Fox article, all the comments were removed. This is the article where he claims no one wants a Volt and there are many Volts sitting unsold on dealer lots everywhere.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:41 pm)

    James: EV buyers will soon realize the limitations of their purchase and undoubtedley vent their frustrations.

    Better stated would be, EV buyers will soon realize the limitations of their purchase and undoubtedley make their car buying decisions accordingly.

    For me to see your statements as credible, you would have elaborate on how the incredulously stupid car buyers you are referring to could put together the resources to make an electric car purchase.

    Then I would concede that those buyers would indeed skew the curve in a negative manner.

    James: It’s proven that BEVs are a true 2nd or 3rd or 4th car option.

    Sources please?


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    Jeff Cobb

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:46 pm)

    DonC: I was very surprised by how often this happened with the Leaf. I didn’t believe that anyone would be so crazy to literally believe the range showing on the dashboard. Turns out I was ever so wrong. It happened a lot. I think there were a few journalists and a few Leaf owners who ended up stranded plus a slew of close calls.

    DonC,

    This week I’m gonna live on the edge when I get the Chevy Volt and run its batteries right up to the range limit … Then have the gas generator turn on seamlessly and keep on rolling … :)


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    DonC

     

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:48 pm)

    Noel Park: Or maybe they have just realized the huge concentration of highly intelligent “early adopters” in CA, hahahahahaha!

    Noel, completely OT: Have you seen the Dream/Dog commercial for the Camaro? I saw it last night. I was thinking “what the heck is this about”. Then I just started laughing. Then I thought of you with your JRT.

    It’s the Mofilm Tribeca Winner Dream Chevy Chevy Runs Deep. If you haven’t seen it I guarantee you’ll enjoy it. http://www.youtube.com/chevrolet?x=us_showcase_874&feature=pv&seo=goo_|_2010_Chevy_Retention_YouTube_|_IMG_Chevy_Make_YouTube_PV_|_Chevrolet_|_chevy


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    kdawg

     

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:49 pm)

    I help set up those lines at MAP. As far as i know, there were no issues there.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:51 pm)

    Jeff Cobb: DonC,

    This week I’m gonna live on the edge when I get the Chevy Volt and run its batteries right up to the range limit… Then have the gas generator turn on seamlessly and keep on rolling …

    Wow Jeff, you really are a risk taker :)


  34. 34
    DonC

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:54 pm)

    Jeff Cobb: This week I’m gonna live on the edge when I get the Chevy Volt and run its batteries right up to the range limit … Then have the gas generator turn on seamlessly and keep on rolling …

    Ha ha. Yeah the consequences of running out of battery are a tad different with an EREV. What’s funny is that Volt’s range estimator is very good while the Leaf’s is beyond miserable. Given the relative consequences of what happens when the battery runs out you’d think it would be the opposite.


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    BLIND GUY

     

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:57 pm)

    I’m not really surprised by any delays for EVs entering the national marketplace. It seems that all manufacturers have had their delays. The Focus BEV is not on my consideration list; without more info on warranties, storage space and the need to have a bit more range. I am very curious as to what the Focus plug-in-hybrid will be like. I’m not a big Ford fan but I would like to see them succeed as well.


  36. 36
    Jeff Cobb

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:58 pm)

    DonC,

    I thought they fixed that problem after the initial bad reports all came out. Didn’t Nissan offer a software upgrade or something like that? Is there still a problem?


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    Jeff Cobb

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (1:58 pm)

    jeffhre,

    I know, pretty crazy huh? :)


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (2:09 pm)

    Jeff Cobb: One time a few months ago several publications and this one had a detail wrong about Volt production – Rob Peterson called my cell phone that day and GM contacted each media outlet that posted the story incorrectly besides.

    Maybe Vertical Scope should start the site “Ford-FocusEV.com)
    (j/k)


  39. 39
    DonC

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (2:13 pm)

    Jeff Cobb: I thought they fixed that problem after the initial bad reports all came out.

    They changed the display so there is more SOC left than the display indicates. That’s what I meant by buffer, and it definitely helps. There have been some reports of people still running out of juice but I’m not sure they’re credible.

    That said, the estimate of the remaining range is still crazy bad. And even if that was improved it won’t help someone who looks at Google Maps and calculates that it’s 85 miles to/from Jones Beach and concludes that this should be no problem because Nissan says the Leaf will go 100 miles. (That happened as well).


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (2:16 pm)

    kdawg: Maybe Vertical Scope should start the site “Ford-FocusEV.com) (j/k)

    We did. This is it. Yesterday I wrote about a Ford EREV/REEP, today the Focus Electric. You mean you don’t see the title change on your end?

    (j/k) :)


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (2:18 pm)

    James,

    i agree. i know of one couple that should be receiving their Leaf shortly, and i guarantee they strand it on the side of the road. they are used to big trucks, sports cars, etc, not EVs. good thing is that they can probably tow it home themselves with one of their toys.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (2:19 pm)

    DonC,

    Yeah, I saw that about Jones beach. Pretty lame. Media gets away with stuff these days. Throw it on the wall and see what sticks. Amazing what will stick.

    Good to know about the buffer. They need to get real and fix it right if they want EVs to have 10 percent of the market in eight years.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (2:22 pm)

    Noel Park: A huge plus in SoCal is that the Leaf can get a drive by yourself in the HOV lane sticker, which the Volt currently cannot.

    what is the current status on this (i’m from MI)? are all prius’s not allowed in the HOV lanes now? are the HOV lanes going away? will the 2012 volt be allowed in these lanes?

    thanks


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (2:24 pm)

    Dave K.: Warren Buffet’s Berkshire Hathaway just invested a huge sum into car manufacturing and battery making in China

    again?


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (2:31 pm)

    Jeff Cobb: Yeah, I saw that about Jones beach. Pretty lame. Media gets away with stuff these days. Throw it on the wall and see what sticks. Amazing what will stick.

    While I’m high on the Leaf I’m less than enamored with Nissan. IMO Nissan was downright deceptive about the range. First there was the “it has a range of 100 miles, maybe more” when the reality was more like 80 miles, at least, as evnow points out, if you live in SoCa. Then, and I am not making this up, the manual recommends that you only charge the battery to 80% of capacity. Huh? Seems to me that if on the one hand you’re recommending that your customer only charge the battery to 80% then you shouldn’t on the other be advertising the range as if you charged the battery to 100%.

    I’d also wonder how or why the EPA let this one by. If the EPA is so intent on having the sticker show a realistic range it should at least use the manufacturer’s recommended charge settings.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (2:34 pm)

    kdawg: what is the current status on this

    Prius no can go. PIP when it appears can go. Leaf can go. Volt no can go. Volt after certification in 2012 can go.

    There is some move to make the HOV lanes pay lanes and only allow true HOV to use them free of charge, but 99% of the HOV lanes you can use with a sticker.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (2:52 pm)

    T 1: With oil having quickly fallen 20%

    $78 now as I write this.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (3:03 pm)

    Since there were so many Leaf comments today, I thought I’d point out the Leaf commercial that disparaged the Volt (and the contest with die cast Volt awarded; thanks again for those who voted for my entry).

    The commercial aired while I was watching a show on Sunday where experts debated Stephen Hawking’s controversial conclusions about the Universe creating itself. (Totally separate topic there…)
    In any case, I had to freeze the frame showing the Volt and I noticed in very tiny script, the following (paraphrased), ‘The Chevy Volt is a gasoline/electric hybrid’. Now, I have a 72″ TV and it was hard to read; I’d imagine it would be unintelligible on most screens. I had to laugh. Since I had not seen the ad on TV before, I did not know if the ‘disclaimer’ was new. It seems like something the lawyers came up with. Again, the fact that Nissan airs this tasteless attack on the only other current (affordable) EV (which doesn’t REQUIRE gasoline, as is the gist of the ad), shows me that Nissan is not worthy of being in the same game. I hope Ford gets its EVs to market damn soon and beats Nissan to a pulp.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (3:51 pm)

    In any case, it appears that manufacturing and selling a BEV is no where near as simple as a lot of people thought.

    GM and Fiskar are definitely on the right track, with resources and infrastructures as they will stand for at least a decade.

    The BEV’s day as a mainstream proposition is coming, but not quite yet.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (3:54 pm)

    jeffhre: High speeds, no.

    #27

    No s__t, LOL! +1

    I guess he hasn’t spent a lot of time on the 405, the most congested freeway in the country. The “rush hour” lasts from about 5 AM to 9 PM. And the break at mid-day ain’t what it used to be either. I listen to the XM traffic report when I leave the house in the AM. It’s brutal out there. 3 Sigalerts at 7 AM today.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (4:00 pm)

    James: Brace yourself for the flood of “plug in found on the road dead” stories

    Found On Road Depleted?” ;-)


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (4:10 pm)

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    Aug 9th, 2011 (4:11 pm)

    DonC: Noel, completely OT: Have you seen the Dream/Dog commercial for the Camaro?

    #31

    I hadn’t seen it, so thanks so much. +1

    That sure looks like Jake with his face out the window. I swear he would jump out going down the road if somebody wasn’t holding on to him all the time. The first thing he does when he gets in the car is put his paw up on the armrest and open the window. Car designers take note – dog owners could use front window lockouts too.

    He’s a “rough coat” JRT. My poor black interior looks like a snow storm has hit it at the moment Never a dull moment though.

    Best regards.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (4:25 pm)

    kdawg: what is the current status on this (i’m from MI)? are all prius’s not allowed in the HOV lanes now?are the HOV lanes going away?will the 2012 volt be allowed in these lanes?

    thanks

    #43

    Priuses (Prii?) are out. Their stickers sunsetted a few weeks ago. It was an incentive for early adopters, and everybody knew it was going to end.

    The HOV lanes are most definitely NOT going away! They are about the only major highway construction going on in SoCal these days. Politically correct, don’t you know? There is currently a project to add 1 (one) HOV lane on the northbound side ONLY of the 405 from Sunset Blvd to the 101, a distance of something like 8 miles. Cost? $1 BILLION!!! No, I am not making this up.

    I believe that the Volt is supposed to achieve HOV status sometime later in the 2012 MY, maybe after the start of CY 2013. Something to do with the guarantee time on the battery and the emissions of the RE. Kind of ticks me off as a 2011 “early adopter”, but it really isn’t that much of an issue for my commute.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (4:29 pm)

    T 1: $78 now as I write this.

    #47

    There’s a little good in everything, LOL. Serves ‘em right! +1


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (4:32 pm)

    Jackson: “Found On Road Depleted?” ;-)

    #51

    Not to restate the obvious, but is that related somehow to “Fix Or Repair Daily”? LOL +1


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (4:33 pm)

    Loboc: relative to other energy sources, gas is still pretty cheap.

    Wow, you keep setting up the straw men.

    On energy content and miles from energy, gas is consistently more expensive than diesel or electricity, even in TX. Thus, diesel Cruze, eAssist LaCrosse and Regal, heavy duty diesel pickup trucks, Volt, dual mode light pickups and SUVs, etc. Get it? They all give better low end torque, too, and pay themselves back over time in increased consumer satisfaction and lower costs (maintenance, operating and/or length of life). Get it?

    BTW, plug in vehicles have already been used to do V2G for gasoline pumps to work during disasters. Broadly distributed solar and wind is harder to destroy than trucked liquid fuel, too.

    I could go on forever, but the point is please stop your FUD and incorrect misinformation.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (5:56 pm)

    jeffhre: Better stated would be, EV buyers will soon realize the limitations of their purchase and undoubtedley make their car buying decisions accordingly.For me to see your statements as credible, you would have elaborate on how the incredulously stupid car buyers you are referring to could put together the resources to make an electric car purchase.Then I would concede that those buyers would indeed skew the curve in a negative manner.Sources please?

    What would you call a car that cannot be counted upon in an emergency? What would you call a car that once it’s powersource is depleted, it cannot be replenished for hours? What if said car could only go the distance it’s manufacturers claim if the temperature is moderate, the topography is flat, or the direction you’re going is laden with downhill slopes and you’re going one way?

    I am my source. It’s obviously my opinion. Perhaps that and the fact Nissan’s Leaf sales are drastically down for July over the previous 2 months – Source: Nissan.

    EVs are not “the answer”. EV purists disagree. Some EV purists and EV purist websites scoff at the Volt because it does use ( or can use if need be ) fossil fuel. EVs can be utilized as an only car only if the user fits within a thin demographic of a person who is able to streamline their transportation needs into a very thin paradigm. This and training oneself to schedule trips around the plug just doesn’t work for convenience-minded folks. I once spoke to a Swedish exchange student who stated how Americans are “so lazy”. He said he noticed Americans didn’t get out of their cars. They had drive up post offices, dairies, banks and fast food! We even have drive up latte and wedding chapels! He’s right. EVs might be good for us all ( they are ), so is good food – but that’s not closing all the McDonalds and Burger Kings nationwide, is it?

    EVs work well as a second or third car. This way, one does not have to count on it in any situation that may occur. People dedicated to the environment, or deeply concerned about America’s security and financial loss due to foreign fuel dependency will make an EV fit into their lifestyle. They’ll walk, ride a bike or take a bus when it doesn’t. Unfortunately that is not most of us.

    RECHARGE! ,

    James


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (6:29 pm)

    Most americans dont have the $$$ to buy electric vehicles ..plus they demand the car should be able to sit 5, should be able to go miles like an ICE car … they dont understand the niche use of BEV or electric cars .. they are too busy buying ipads mypads phone gadgets to yuk yuk Alas they are not into green revolution … European China some Asian countries will be participate more in this technology … sad but true.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (6:43 pm)

    Dave K.: Haven’t seen a LEAF yet here in So Calif.One guy at the gym said he finally saw one in the wild last week. I wish Ford well with the E-Focus.Have you seen the BYD taxi? Warren Buffet’s Berkshire Hathaway just invested a huge sum into car manufacturing and battery making in China. He is actually building his own battery factory in Schezuan China.No Plug, No Sale!

    In the Seattle area we see a ton of Leafs! I read at nissan-leaf.net that my nearby Nissan dealer is the number one seller of Leaf nationwide. That must be the case because one cannot go for a weekend drive without seeing 2 or more. In my neighborhood I’ve counted six! The blue seems the most popular color by far – sometimes I’ve thought I’m seeing the same one over and over again – except the other day when I saw two blue ones in the local shopping center and a third red one with it’s new owner sticker in the window! I told GM this would be a hot Volt market, still don’t understand why we’re second tier sales region.

    Washington State is fairly “green” with our loads of natural wonders luring outdoorsy types. We use mainly clean hydropower and were the first city in the USA ( Seattle ) to have a recycling program with home pick up. That said, from what I’ve seen Colorado and California seem to be the leaders in green energy and sustainable power consumption by private and corporate entities. Who knows why Leaf are falling from trees around here to such a degree. I know when I went to the Leaf demo event many months ago there was a long line and waiting list to drive one. Most of the folks I “interviewed” at that event seemed to fall into an intellectual city person type. There were also some who claimed their Leaf would be a wife’s or kid’s car – one to do local errands.

    RECHARGE! ,

    James

    Jackson – F.O.R.D. “Found On Road Depleted”… LOL exactly!


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (7:17 pm)

    Noel Park: #27

    No s__t, LOL!+1

    I guess he hasn’t spent a lot of time on the 405, the most congested freeway in the country.The “rush hour” lasts from about 5 AM to 9 PM.And the break at mid-day ain’t what it used to be either.I listen to the XM traffic report when I leave the house in the AM.It’s brutal out there.3 Sigalerts at 7 AM today.

    Yeah, isn’t that the truth. I know a guy who forgot about “carmageddon,” drove home on the 405 as usual, and got home…a half hour early!


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (7:19 pm)

    DonC: Then, and I am not making this up, the manual recommends that you only charge the battery to 80% of capacity. Huh? Seems to me that if on the one hand you’re recommending that your customer only charge the battery to 80% then you shouldn’t on the other be advertising the range as if you charged the battery to 100%.

    Did not know that. Need to get my hands on a Nissan LEAF too, and then read the manual. Hey, I know. I could start a show, maybe call it Almost Fully Charged and ride around in the LEAF and talk about other cars.

    Just kidding. :) Robert Llewellyn does a great job. It does make me think of trying for something like that some time. The video format is effective at getting the message across to a broader audience …


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (7:24 pm)

    James: EVs work well as a second or third car. This way, one does not have to count on it in any situation that may occur. People dedicated to the environment, or deeply concerned about America’s security and financial loss due to foreign fuel dependency will make an EV fit into their lifestyle.

    Although we can’t scratch it’s chin or make it go fetch, we each have our own comfortable dogma that helps to keep us feeling safe, warm and uniquely individual.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (7:29 pm)

    Noel Park: Car designers take note – dog owners could use front window lockouts too.

    a lot of cars i’ve rode in have this


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (7:38 pm)

    When I was a batchelor I used to rent out the house next door to a small family with a stay at home mom. My office window looks out on their driveway and I’d see just how many short trips this woman took each and every day. It was amazing. In and out all day long. This kind of driving is where hybrids flop – those short trips to the drug store, or trips where you have several short trips chained end-to-end. Every time you start your hybrid the gas engine kicks in after a few seconds, even when it doesn’t have to warm up the intake manifold or condition the battery pack. EV Mode in newer Toyotas handles some of this – but still, the short trip sees hybrids getting pretty dismal mileage figures being that you paid a premium of sorts just to be clean, green and lean.

    Short trips are were EVs shine. Now I’m a part-time stay at home dad. I can’t believe the short trips I make. To school to pick up kids – home. To the park. Swim class. Martial Arts class, then Home Depot, the supermarket, bank, post office, etc etc. My wife drives our Prius to work, 14 miles roundtrip. It sits in a parking lot all day. Our family would be perfect for a BEV. One divisive factor is: Who would get the BEV?

    One look at Ford’s BEV Focus “conversion” shows it’s an afterthought add-on. They plunked a huge battery box in the cargo area behind the rear seat! This takes away much of it’s utility if not most. The C-Max Energi, on the other hand – seems to have a whole lot of utility with a three-across back seat and probably the flattest and best laid out seemless fold down/sliding rear seat arrangement I’ve ever seen. Still, we’ll have to see if the Energi model gets this interior or if the pictures are of the ICE or hybrid models only.

    Voltecs win because they were purpose designed to be safe and for the pack to accomidate storage capability too. If Volts could seat 5 and improve upon the CS mode mileage – there would be no more arguments as to just how long a trip has to be to make a Prius a much better value. Each electrically aided solution fits a different consumer’s actual needs. More and more options are coming to fruition. Isn’t it exciting we will be having these discussions? It makes a Who Killed The Electric Car generation guy feel like he’s died and gone to heaven!

    RECHARGE! ,

    James


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (7:41 pm)

    +1 DonC

    This is one of the best “come clean” douments (with color coordinated artwork) that I’ve seen come out of Nissan. (see link below)
    It’s targeting the Canadian market techncially but still…

    HOWEVER, as you state these numbers are based:
    a) on an initial 100% SOC (not 80% as “advised” to increase battery life)
    b) on a brand new battery (with no way to “stretch” the SOC window as the battery ages/life-cycles towards EOL)

    Still I do like the “format” they are using to try to explain to consumers the very wide tolerance of range variation (what I call RoR- Range of Range) that will exist…
    WOT

    http://www.nissan.ca/vehicles/ms/leaf/en/range-fundamentals.aspx#/range-fundamentals

    PS> you get my PM?

    DonC: While I’m high on the Leaf I’m less than enamored with Nissan. IMO Nissan was downright deceptive about the range. First there was the “it has a range of 100 miles, maybe more” when the reality was more like 80 miles, at least, as evnow points out, if you live in SoCa. Then, and I am not making this up, the manual recommends that you only charge the battery to 80% of capacity. Huh? Seems to me that if on the one hand you’re recommending that your customer only charge the battery to 80% then you shouldn’t on the other be advertising the range as if you charged the battery to 100%.I’d also wonder how or why the EPA let this one by. If the EPA is so intent on having the sticker show a realistic range it should at least use the manufacturer’s recommended charge settings.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (7:57 pm)

    James: I once spoke to a Swedish exchange student who stated how Americans are “so lazy”. He said he noticed Americans didn’t get out of their cars. They had drive up post offices, dairies, banks and fast food! We even have drive up latte and wedding chapels! He’s right.

    That’s funny coming from a country that on average works 200 less hours than Americans. We invented things like the drive thru to save us time, not because we are lazy. Most Americans would be considered more like multi-tasking work-a-holics compared to Europeons. (note: South Korea has everyone beat when it comes to work hours).


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (8:11 pm)

    WopOnTour,

    Good data chart from Nissan taking into consideration the buffer issue is not fronted. I noticed there’s no data for cold weather either ( Canada has it’s share! ). How about those situations where you’re using energy to heat the steering wheel, seats and interior, plus the decreased efficiency of batteries of all kinds in cold temperatures?

    My guess is they can’t print that because the data would scare away buyers. I’ve read as little as 45+ miles AER when the mercury dips below 30 degrees F.

    RECHARGE! ,

    James


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (8:16 pm)

    kdawg: That’s funny coming from a country that on average works 200 less hours than Americans. We invented things like the drive thru to save us time, not because we are lazy. Most Americans would be considered more like multi-tasking work-a-holics compared to Europeons. (note: South Korea has everyone beat when it comes to work hours).

    You’re right, that is very ironic. Point is, for Americans, convenience is tops.

    RECHARGE! ,

    James


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (8:41 pm)

    James: One look at Ford’s BEV Focus “conversion” shows it’s an afterthought add-on. They plunked a huge battery box in the cargo area behind the rear seat!

    it was designed same time as ice focus


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (8:54 pm)

    James: If Volts could seat 5 and improve upon the CS mode mileage – there would be no more arguments as to just how long a trip has to be to make a Prius a much better value.

    CS mileage and price. The magic bullets used by Volt detractors who believe car buyers are not capable of rational analysis.

    kdawg: it was designed same time as ice focus

    That is why I believe separate platforms need to be dedicated for use in ICE’s-EREV’s vs. BEV’s.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (9:04 pm)

    James: It’s inevitable. EV fans know EVs – like you, they’d never over-extend their range…Armed with sliderules, graphs, computers and calculations, they know from experience the limitations and capabilities of their machines. EV enthusiasts are willing to put up with the inconveniences of owning an EV. The average person is not.

    What do I believe – your speculation or my lying eyes ;-)

    I see more enthusiasts pushing Leaf to the limit and finally pushing the car home than the average person. The average person will have a larger margin of safety and thus won’t run out of charge.

    Ofcourse, EVs are not idiot proof. Those idiots shouldn’t go swimming either – they will probably run out of energy in the middle of the lake and drown.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (9:09 pm)

    DonC: I was very surprised by how often this happened with the Leaf. I didn’t believe that anyone would be so crazy to literally believe the range showing on the dashboard. Turns out I was ever so wrong. It happened a lot. I think there were a few journalists and a few Leaf owners who ended up stranded plus a slew of close calls.

    I’m pretty certain the journos did it to add drama (that is why some of them even left the car in the middle of the road instead pulling to the side after getting turtle). Couple of early reports were from people who were too adventurous – and the one which made headlines didn’t charge completely and yet decided to take the chance. You can read all about that in the MNL threads.

    Claiming that the Leaf had a 100 mile range was definitely pushing the envelope. Realistically the Leaf doesn’t have a 100 mile range but unfortunately some people believed the overstatements and ended up having to call for a tow.

    Well, Nissan always said 100 miles on LA04 – and EPA rated it 73 miles. Don’t see how early owners could have missed that.


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (9:11 pm)

    evnow: What do I believe – your speculation or my lying eyes
    I see more enthusiasts pushing Leaf to the limit and finally pushing the car home than the average person. The average person will have a larger margin of safety and thus won’t run out of charge.
    Ofcourse, EVs are not idiot proof. Those idiots shouldn’t go swimming either – they will probably run out of energy in the middle of the lake and drown.

    i think the original point was that even if 99 out of 100 leaf owners have no issues, the media will focus on all the ones that do


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (9:35 pm)

    James,
    Did you follow the link?
    The “pink” circle on the graph coincides with the “pink” bar data in the table
    i.e. 14F/-10C (with climate control ON to achieve comfort) Stop & Go traffic @ avg. speed 15mph or 24km/hr
    Result? 62 miles/99km (@100% SOC initial)
    Drive any faster and I can DEFINATELY see it dipping into the 40-50 mile range
    WOT

    James: ,Good data chart from Nissan taking into consideration the buffer issue is not fronted. I noticed there’s no data for cold weather either ( Canada has it’s share! ). How about those situations where you’re using energy to heat the steering wheel, seats and interior, plus the decreased efficiency of batteries of all kinds in cold temperatures?My guess is they can’t print that because the data would scare away buyers. I’ve read as little as 45+ miles AER when the mercury dips below 30 degrees F.RECHARGE! ,James


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    Aug 9th, 2011 (9:40 pm)

    kdawg: i think the original point was that even if 99 out of 100 leaf owners have no issues, the media will focus on all the ones that do

    100 – 99 = 1, not the ones.

    Why would the media focus on that? They don’t focus on the millions of full gasser pickup trucks and SUVs that run out of gasoline every year, so to single out a small, emerging class would be outrageous bias. Running out of energy in your vehicle results first and foremost from driver inexperience. The cure is broad, mainstream experience.

    Then we have James dissing on every type of plug in.

    Did someone crap in all your cereals this morning (I thought that was my job)? Is it national FUD day?

    I noticed as I rode by two of the very many gas stations in my area today that they were both out of gas, with lots of angry folks at the pumps. I laughed as I sped by, since I just fill up at home.


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (1:14 am)

    EVO: 100 – 99 = 1, not the ones.Why would the media focus on that? They don’t focus on the millions of full gasser pickup trucks and SUVs that run out of gasoline every year, so to single out a small, emerging class would be outrageous bias. Running out of energy in your vehicle results first and foremost from driver inexperience. The cure is broad, mainstream experience.Then we have James dissing on every type of plug in.Did someone crap in all your cereals this morning (I thought that was my job)? Is it national FUD day?I noticed as I rode by two of the very many gas stations in my area today that they were both out of gas, with lots of angry folks at the pumps. I laughed as I sped by, since I just fill up at home.

    I know it’s late and he’ll never read this – but when did I “diss on every type of plug-in”?

    I do remember saying the media has taken to calling all BEVs, PHEVs and EREVs ” plug ins “… And commented upon how this confuses the public at large….

    For me – my next car will be a Volt – and future trucks for me will have a plug or no sale.

    I think I clearly stated it’s exciting the developments are rolling in fast and there’s more types of cars with electrification to choose from – some with plugs, some without. I think I was pretty clear there are pluses and minuses to each and said we’ll have fun discussing/debating each as they turn up. The car that “wins” the most sales will be the one that fills the most needs with the least cost and hassle.

    Perhaps a little Windex on those glasses might help? Q-tip to clean out those ears?

    James


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (1:17 am)

    evnow:
    I see more enthusiasts pushing Leaf to the limit and finally pushing the car home than the average person. The average person will have a larger margin of safety and thus won’t run out of charge.

    Ofcourse, EVs are not idiot proof. Those idiots shouldn’t go swimming either – they will probably run out of energy in the middle of the lake and drown.

    I’m afraid James is correct regarding mass market reluctance for BEVs. That extra margin of safety you mentioned an average person would have is a nice way of saying the real world range of an EV which is rather thin to begin with would be even thinner.

    BEVs are simply not ready for prime time yet.


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (1:26 am)

    EVO: 100 – 99 = 1, not the ones.

    Why would the media focus on that? They don’t focus on the millions of full gasser pickup trucks and SUVs that run out of gasoline every year, so to single out a small, emerging class would be outrageous bias. Running out of energy in your vehicle results first and foremost from driver inexperience. The cure is broad, mainstream experience.

    I noticed as I rode by two of the very many gas stations in my area today that they were both out of gas, with lots of angry folks at the pumps. I laughed as I sped by, since I just fill up at home.

    Good for you, but I think you are either in denial or simply in a different world than the average person.


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (1:53 am)

    stuart22: BEVs are simply not ready for prime time yet.

    Depends on whose prime time you are referring to. There are tens of millions of people around the globe that drive less than 35 miles per day. Every day. A BEV would be prime time for these drivers. Auto companies could easily content themselves with this market, until more range becomes affordable for BEVs, broadening the market for BEVs again.

    ICE cars have to negotiate a highly competitive 100 year old maze of very refined expectations, and multiple competing segments, to win in markets with tens of millions of customers.


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (10:43 am)

    James: I know it’s late and he’ll never read this– but when did I “diss on every type of plug-in”?

    Perhaps a little Windex on those glasses might help? Q-tip to clean out those ears?

    See responses #70 and #71 for examples. I used windex and q-tips to find them.


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (10:46 am)

    stuart22: Good for you, but I think you are either in denial or simply in a different world than the average person.

    How is it denial to find that something just plain works well for me (perhaps you are projecting your own views?), so it must be a different world. I have a longer than average commute.


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (10:52 am)

    jeffhre: There are tens of millions of people around the globe that drive less than 35 miles per day. Every day. A BEV would be prime time for these drivers. Auto companies could easily content themselves with this market, until more range becomes affordable for BEVs, broadening the market for BEVs again.

    No, BEVs are not yet ready for mass acceptance. They are too expensive for having such limited utility.

    Mass transit systems are IMO a better solution for people who travel less than 35 miles EVERY day- less traffic congestion.


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (11:02 am)

    EVO: 100 – 99 = 1, not the ones.Why would the media focus on that? They don’t focus on the millions of full gasser pickup trucks and SUVs that run out of gasoline every year, so to single out a small, emerging class would be outrageous bias.

    Because they are the media, trying to sell newspapers, and want a hero to fail. Bad news sells better than good news.


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (11:05 am)

    stuart22: Mass transit systems are IMO a better solution for people who travel

    This may be true. Nonetheless, we still have real demand for billions of personal vehicles, for which adding electric drive in any blend desired by consumers is already pretty trivial and inexpensive. Every modern vehicle already comes with an electric motor capable of turning an ICE, so it’s a simple matter of more electric beef for more torque, smoother, stronger acceleration and better efficiency.

    I’ve never seen such a tempest in a teapot as currently going on with vehicle makers (and media and consumers) making such simple, robust, overdue improvements.


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (11:06 am)

    EVO: How is it denial to find that something just plain works well for me (perhaps you are projecting your own views?), so it must be a different world. I have a longer than average commute.

    Talking about projecting one’s views, look in the mirror – you ‘sped by’ gas stations, yet you factually claim ‘lots of angry folks’ were at the pumps… ? Are you a mind reader?


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (11:17 am)

    stuart22: Talking about projecting one’s views, look in the mirror – you ‘sped by’ gas stations, yet you factually claim ‘lots of angry folks’ were at the pumps… ?Are you a mind reader?

    No, I heard them complaining. My electric vehicle is quiet, so I can do that.


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    Aug 10th, 2011 (1:02 pm)

    p.s. I was going less than the speed of sound, with no windows in the way, if that helps.


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    Aug 11th, 2011 (12:45 am)

    EVO: See responses #70 and #71 for examples. I used windex and q-tips to find them.

    You could just be in a cantankerous mood, I’m not sure…But nothing I said was not true. Look up a photo of the Focus EV’s trunk. As cars go, it’s trunk is nearly non-existent. Leaf’s isn’t much better, but I did see someone place a fullsized cello in case in the back of one with seats up at the Leaf event. Leaf’s trunk is not as useable as Volt’s as there’s a large dropoff from floor to seatback. Sure you can make a shelf or hope for one as a Leaf option – but shouldn’t that be standard? Kelly Blue Book’s “Leaf vs. Volt” video measures Leaf and Volt cargo area and states they’re “equal”. As for BEVs in general – their market is a thin slice o’ the pizza pie my friend – to which there is no doubt.

    As for my comment regarding the 4 seats of the Volt vs. 5 for other hybrids – yes it does make a difference to a good many buyers, especially ones with families. I was neither “dissing” the Volt nor any other hybrid, PHEV or EREV. Only making observations in relation to mass market acceptance.

    Discussion, POV and observation are a great deal of what we all talk about here on this site. It seems odd you are one of few I seem to have to constantly remind that I am a big EV, PHEV and EREV fan. How many times have I said there is a place and a person that fits nearly every type of hybridized or electric vehicle?

    ‘Nuff said.

    RECHARGE! ,

    James