Recently General Motors conceded it began 2011 Volt roll out too conservatively, but aims to catch up with its now-in-production 2012s to the Nissan LEAF as soon as possible.
“It’s fair to say GM underestimated demand for the Volt,” said Volt Line Director Tony Posawatz. “By January, the capacity we need will be online.”
That capacity at the Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant is expected to be 5,000 Volts per month, which by the way, is more than GM has sold to date.
A Volt on the line at the Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant.
It was expected these kinds of numbers would be announced for calendar year 2012 to meet GM’s commitment to produce 60,000 Volts and Amperas for worldwide sales next year. Of these, three-fourths will go to the U.S. market with the rest divvied up among Chevrolet’s other markets.
Nonetheless, this will be a significant year-over-year increase for the new kind of car, and GM is now expected to be on better footing to compete with Nissan’s all-electric LEAF.
According to the latest end-of-month tallies, Chevrolet’s Volt trails Nissan’s LEAF, having sold 2,745 Volts compared to 3,875.
In fact, these are only the U.S. numbers, which is all GM has had for the U.S.-only Volt, but Nissan’s CEO Carlos Ghosn recently said that 10,100 LEAFs have been delivered worldwide.
Thus, if anyone is keeping score, Nissan is really well ahead in getting its LEAF in the hands of drivers.
All this said – and as we independently observed not long ago – it is not even a race yet. This week our intuitive analysis was confirmed by at least one professional analyst in an interview with Bloomberg.
When will the real race be on? It will start in 2012, said Rebecca Lindland, an analyst with IHS Automotive, a firm based in Lexington, Mass.
“This is very much about supply constraints as opposed to a sales race,” Lindland said. “Next year will really show true demand for these kinds of cars and which one wins.”
Volts share the road with some other low emission vehicles at a GM event in Brazil.
Bloomberg reported that both vehicles are actually in short supply and both companies have thousands of people in various regions on waiting lists.
As new models of both pure electric and electric-plus-gas-generator equipped vehicles come online to add to the fray, in question will be which approach gets the most votes.
Will it be EVs or extended-range EVs?
And for those who believe the Volt will be the winner, will the 45,000 units for U.S. delivery be enough? Further, will 15,000 Volts and Amperas for the rest of the world be enough to meet that expected demand? Or will it be their turn to wait as Americans have all year under the circumstances of having some Volts, but with excessively pinched availability?
On this supply question, yesterday we asked GM Spokesman Rob Peterson whether Detroit-Hamtramck could significantly escalate production mid-year if GM determined market conditions would allow for more than the forecast production.
“We’re not publicly discussing production capacity or forecasts beyond 2012 at this time,” Peterson said. “The fact that we provided forecasts for 2011 and 2012 is highly unusual for the industry, but publicly stated as part of the transparent communications approach.”
Although he could not offer the information we asked for, Peterson did clarify another issue. Since Chevrolet has said it would produce 10,000 Volts for the U.S. market in 2011, and we know it has not sold nearly that many but has started producing 2012s already, we asked him to confirm that Chevrolet is counting 2012 Volts built from July onward toward the 2011 total.
Peterson said this the case – Chevrolet built fewer than 4,000 2011 model year Volts, and the rest of 16,000 Volts to be distributed worldwide this year are to be 2012s, albeit built in 2011.
“We produced 3,900-plus 2011 Volts. Roughly 500 were sent to dealers as demos, 200 for internal purposes and the remainder delivered to dealerships (fewer than 100 remain unsold),” Peterson said. “We will produce 16,000 Volts in calendar year 2011 – 12,000 of which will be 2012 model years.”
The same scenario will be true next year he said. In short, Chevrolet is counting the widely published “60,000″ 2012 Volts and Amperas due for global distribution based on units made during the 2012 calendar year. He did not disclose when the 2013 model year will begin, but, he said, “60,000 includes both 2012 and 2013 model year vehicles.”
This entry was posted on Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+23
Jul 29th, 2011 (7:30 am)GM needs to make more Volts. Yesterday.
+24
Jul 29th, 2011 (7:31 am)“Or will 15,000 Volts and Amperas for the rest of the world be enough either, or will it be their turn to wait as Americans have all year?”
We [the rest of the world], have waited just as long as our brethren in the US, and will have to wait even longer (almost 4 years now for me), and “no”, 15,000 units will not be enough, not by a long shot!
If the Volt came out here tomorrow in Australia, it would be another day too long a wait.
-2
Jul 29th, 2011 (7:51 am)That is what was meant all along by “too little, too slowly”.
Opportunity is being missed. Sales are being lost to other choices, like Cruze.
+6
Jul 29th, 2011 (8:07 am)So how will going from 4,000 units in 6 months to 60,000 units in 12 months impact the price. The ‘ramping up’ of onshore EV component production facilities will continue.
What will be the mrp for a base Volt next summer (in Ohio)?
I’ve been reading this site for years and waiting till I can justify buying one.
Of course the price of the car is just one variable. Price of gas (which will continue to rise) and the availability of charging at work and on the road is also a factor.
+7
Jul 29th, 2011 (8:11 am)The Leaf is a very limited car with a very limited amount of customers who desire such a car. Once that group has saturated, sales will drop dramatically. Many more people desire the Volt because it can be used as a primary vehicle. When the Volt price comes down closer to a regular car, the sales will take off while the Leaf sales will remain stagnant. My guess is the Volt will win the race next year here in the USA. In the rest of the world, things could be different.
+23
Jul 29th, 2011 (9:01 am)They’re certainly NOT being lost on a Toyota Prius any more!
BA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!
+4
Jul 29th, 2011 (9:04 am)Considering that the entire US and various nations will be buying the Volt and Ampera, 5,000 per month should keep the demand for Volt and Ampera much higher than the supply.
If GM makes more profit on the Cruze than the Volt, (don’t forget to add the profit on servicing the vehicle) then I can understand why they build less Volts than Cruze.
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (9:08 am)Xiaowei1,
Yes, of course you are right that the rest of the world waited. I did not mean to exclude the wait others outside the U.S. have had so far. I edited the sentence to better avoid ambiguity.
“Further, will 15,000 Volts and Amperas for the rest of the world be enough to meet that expected demand? Or will it be their turn to wait as Americans have all year under the circumstances of having some Volts, but with excessively pinched availability?”
+13
Jul 29th, 2011 (9:49 am)A sale lost to a Cruze is still a sale, and if the customer is impressed it may still result in a future Volt sale. A sale lost to a Leaf or Prius (etc.) is another matter.
Supply constraint is key. Battery plants are still being built, engine plants are still being readied. But at least GM is working on it. Too bad previous management didn’t figure out they needed sub 2.0 litre engines in the U.S. sooner, but present management seems to be on target.
+3
Jul 29th, 2011 (10:03 am)GM is still on track for their projected roll out. No changes here.
While we may see a lot of demand (being fanboiz), GM marketing may not. This is still a very expensive car compared to say a Jetta or other high-end compact. The market for smooth acceleration (and other advantages) may not be there yet. Buyers may be afraid to jump into a new technology for fear of service issues as well. (All points we have covered extensively.)
It’s all about getting into the ‘close followers’ after the early adopters. And then the market is more general after that. While I (as a fan) don’t see market saturation any time soon, I’m a computer geek, not a marketing expert.
It’s very interesting that GM is not tipping their hand with production numbers beyond 2012. We may yet see Cruze-like production numbers in 2013 and beyond.
————
OT.
In other news. F1 has a new rule that cars must use electric propulsion *only* in the pit lanes. Very interesting to see what the solutions will be.
Jul 29th, 2011 (10:14 am)What we really want to know is, “When can we get a Volt with MyLink?” I can’t be the only one who’s waiting to buy until I can get one that comes with that little gem.
+14
Jul 29th, 2011 (10:41 am)I still think it is silly to compare the sales of the Volt and Leaf as a “race”. It’s just like Camaros vs Mustangs – even if one sells less than the other, they will still sell a lot of them. It’s not like the “loser” will close up shop. It is way to early to declare “winners” anyway.
Jul 29th, 2011 (10:43 am)As predicted the GM forecasters missed the boat. No surprise there. Looking at traditional demand for a $40K compact near luxury car — under the Chevy brand no less — isn’t of any help forecasting demand for a $40K EREV. For that you need instinct not spreadsheets.
The Volt will outsell the Leaf for the simple reason that it will be sold in more places by more dealers. Part of this is that Nissan is supply constrained until sometime in 2013 and part of this is that the Leaf is going to be a very hard sell in cold climates. Plus the Leaf is more of a niche than a Volt. A Volt can be your only car, That’s not true for a Leaf.
No doubt we’ll still see demand outstrip supply at 45,000 units a year but it won’t be as crazy as it was this year. 45,000 units is a decent number, far better for example than Toyota experienced with the Prius (it took Toyota something like six years to get to 60k units a year), but it’s still not nearly large enough for volumes to start allowing economies of scale to drive down the prices of specialized components. For that you need more like 500,000 units a year, and there is no way that GM can sell that many Volts in NA. Exporting from NA is nice, but the only way GM can get to these production levels is to produce the EREV we know as the Volt in the EU and Asia.
-1
Jul 29th, 2011 (10:45 am)The official word is that this will be available for order in the November timeframe.
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (11:02 am)If Volt = Camaro… what is Ford’s Mustang?
+17
Jul 29th, 2011 (11:05 am)3 fresh orders for 2012 VOLTs taken so far, PLUS the 7 that rolled over from 2011 orders, EQUALS the start of an ‘electrifying’ model year.
+2
Jul 29th, 2011 (11:25 am)60K per year is still a large number – we won’t know what the demand is until that many are produced and are in the showrooms. Looks like this year, GM will only make 2K cars per month or something close to what Nissan is delivering in the US every month now.
Toyota says they will make 16K PHVs a year.
It is easy for all of us enthusiasts to think the demand is large – but market reality could be quite different. The demand could be like a hockey stick – good at first, but as initial demand is met – the outstanding demand goes down – until the product clicks with the general population.
ps : For some reason I’m “banned” from the forums. Not sure why. Apparently the admins here don’t think Volt & Leaf owners have anything to share.
+4
Jul 29th, 2011 (11:46 am)I have a bet with a longtime friend that the Volt will be successful. This bet was made around 1.5 years ago and of course is loosely worded. However, if GM can sell 5000/month I think Chris may have to concede that I won the bet.
Donc–
Good input on Volt vs Prius sales in the first years on the market. I never would have guessed that was true and it’s a good sign.
Which will be more successful: leaf or Volt?? As much as I love the Volt I would say that the leaf will sell more cars just due to cost. And I also think they will end up w/ a higher production capacity. (aren’t they touting 500000/yr as their target??)
re Jonh1701,
I actually enjoy most of his comments. The Prius is a fine car. Technologically inferior to the Volt but probably more MPG for the $.
+2
Jul 29th, 2011 (11:48 am)#17
i agree. It’s gonna get even more interesting as production ramps up.
+9
Jul 29th, 2011 (11:51 am)#18
Interesting to see him switch from how dumb the Volt is to how dumb GM is for not producing enough, LOL.
Jul 29th, 2011 (12:01 pm)With the huge tariffs put on the Volt do you really think there will be large numbers shipped globally?
I think we should put a $20,000 tariff on the Leaf.. then see how a FAIR race will be.
+3
Jul 29th, 2011 (12:38 pm)I’ve noticed that too. I think he secretly likes the Volt and wants one. It was funny to watch usbseawolf’s video of the Pip test drive. They were all so excited that they could drive in pure electric. (Well, as pure as a Pip can get which is of course nothing like the Volt).
Jul 29th, 2011 (12:43 pm)What??
I have not been to the GM-Volt forum for a while. Hard to imagine. Did you get in a tiff w/ one of the moderators??
-8
Jul 29th, 2011 (12:56 pm)I still say the LACK OF CHOICE is a terrible business decision.
.
Excluding vital bits of detail, eh? They actually said the first year in this market will be 16 to 17. Let’s not forget the other markets or the other new vehicles also offering new lithium packs.
.
How can you know how many are waiting for the plug-in model? Of course, with such a childish response, it’s hard to take that as constructive. Regardless, sales of Cruze are dramatically higher than Volt.
.
With gas so much more expensive now and the market already so well established for non-traditional vehicles, that’s hard to take seriously. Remember back then how much anti-hybrid campaigning there was… how much people blew off concerns of emissions and importing oil… how much people were actually encouraged to guzzle… how little experience automakers had with motors & batteries… how many misconceptions about electric propulsion existed.
Remember, GM has been offering Two-Mode for years now. Let’s not forget EV1 either.
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (12:58 pm)Let’s make some suppositions!!!!
GM has the Volt in Hamtramck and are going to produce 60,000. That is the equivalent of
30 jobs per hour on one shift.
The Malibu is being added. I would be expecting a EERV Malibu to be coming very shortly.
At 60 JPH, Hamtramck –on three shifts–can produce about 250,000 to 300,000 units per year. There is more than adequate volume available during the next year or two.
After Obamas MPG announcement today I would expect the NON-EREV Malibu to move to another plant—-like Spring Hill but probably Janesville,WI
+2
Jul 29th, 2011 (1:04 pm)I would say the 2012 Ford Focus Electric.
+6
Jul 29th, 2011 (1:46 pm)How can anyone justify the price, and expenses, of a car? The insurance costs alone are at least two or three hundred dollars a year more than a bus-pass. If you like the car and can afford to buy it based on your savings and income…to me getting a car as cool as a Volt that can save me thousands in gasoline costs over the next decade, goes a long way toward justifying the cost and effort of getting an education and going to work every day.
That’s before I take into account externalities like lessening the burden on the military in places like the Middle East, and lowering air pollutants.
Jul 29th, 2011 (1:56 pm)Keep in mind that it’s 45K in the US and Canada. Selling 45K is not quite as hard as selling 60K. I wouldn’t compare the Volt to the PIP. The Volt is a really nice car. No real comparison to a Prius, though if the Volt turns out to be as reliable as the Prius that would be a very good thing.
Jeff — is EVNOW really banned from the forums? If so then that’s crazy. He’s always been a good contributor. I realize he has some connection with the Leaf forum but that shouldn’t matter. Can you see what you can do? Thnx.
+2
Jul 29th, 2011 (1:58 pm)Seriously?
Adjusted for inflation, gas is little changed on a real dollar basis. Considering money was being thrown out with abandon then, and now only government’s effort or actual payment is getting money invested today, the Volt production increase marks an amazing turn-a-bout.
Though the awareness that the Prius created is very helpful for GM also. And people like Felix Kramer of CalCars, Lyle Dennis, and Andy Frank at UC Davis have literally moved mountains in term of interest and awareness.
+2
Jul 29th, 2011 (2:04 pm)Focus EV? MTN Ranger you made the right call.
+6
Jul 29th, 2011 (2:05 pm)child·ish (c̸hīl′dis̸h)
adjective
1. of, like, or characteristic of a child
2. not fit for an adult; immature; silly
3. john1701a
It is your repeated visits here, primarily intended to disrupt the flow of conversation, which are truly childish. Perhaps you should go back to john1701a.com and write another hateful, pique-filled screed entry in your log.
+7
Jul 29th, 2011 (2:14 pm)Cool they will soon be making the 3 year-old pre-owned Volt that I will buy in 2015.
+2
Jul 29th, 2011 (3:30 pm)john1701a,
Quote:”Remember back then how much anti-hybrid campaigning there was… how much people blew off concerns of emissions and importing oil… how much people were actually encouraged to guzzle… how little experience automakers had with motors & batteries… how many misconceptions about electric propulsion existed.”
Yes I remember having to listen to all those “it doesn’t pay for itself” arguments when I got my Prius. and look how many are on the road now!!
This will happen with the Volt and the Leaf. It will just take some time…….
and lots of people will go for the PiP because it is less $ than the Volt. The big question I have about the PiP is: How much will the gas engine mode fuel consumption suffer?? Also, with such a short electric range this car is targeted to people w/ a very short driving distance to work.
Jul 29th, 2011 (3:47 pm)There is a role for real work vehicles (hint: that excludes 95% of all SUVs and pickup trucks sold in the US today).
Delicious plug in heavy duty pickup truck:
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2011/07/28/fords-heavy-duty-hybrid-truck/
Of course, I’d go for the turbo (domestic bio)diesel. It’s gotta be > 50 mpge with 300 miles daily use and less than 100k lifetime cost or thereabouts to interest me.
It’s only advantage Ford if they get electric drive (pure and blended) into their entire line up and drive down costs first.
-6
Jul 29th, 2011 (3:59 pm)We already know that efficiency after depletion will be about 50 MPG based on observations from those currently driving them.
We already know that the system will offer a button to allow the choice of when EV depletion takes place.
So there isn’t that target. Those with highway stretches in the middle of their commute can take advantage of the best of both worlds. But even if they don’t, the system will still boost overall efficiency anyway.
As for Volt, like some of us have been saying for years, a lower cost model should be offered.
-2
Jul 29th, 2011 (4:01 pm)Nope – since power pack depleted mpg is better than Volt extended range mpg, here’s how the US market works:
Cars, 50% of all vehicles, so 150 million:
25% local runabout commuter (best for small cities, suburbs (not exurbs) and towns): 38 million
Best current value match – Leaf
25% moderate commuter and occasional long trip: 38 million
Best current value match – Volt
25% shorter commutes and more frequent long trips, especially non-interstate (scenic routes): 38 million
Best current value match – plug in Prius
25% mostly long trips, including interstate travel: 38 million
Best current value match – turbo (bio) diesel, such as Jetta or Passat TDI
By value I mean total lifetime, including owner manual scheduled and expected other typical maintenance and fuel costs.
Those four vehicles could easily have 30 million in sales each if marketed properly and if vehicle makers weren’t mostly busy foisting obsolete crap on the public.
Thank goodness I don’t have inflammatory opinions.
+2
Jul 29th, 2011 (4:08 pm)I’m not so sure about PiP selling all that well against regular Prius or Volt. The disadvantage of having to mess with a cord for the small savings in gas may not be worth the trouble.
The advantage of short electric range is that more drivers would fully deplete the traction battery meaning that they get more bang for their buck. (Not a lot of extra battery capacity hanging around unused at extra cost.)
The disadvantage of short electric range is that most drivers would be using gas more of the time. However, at > 65mpg, how much gas are we really talking about?
One day soon, we may get to the option of purchasing battery capacity that is in line with our driving activities. Not too small. Not to big. Just right. Kind of like the ‘S’. Volt takes care of the middle majority pretty well, but, some need 20 or 60 or more miles AER to match their transportation needs.
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (4:25 pm)I’m with you brother!
As soon as one comes up in the used arena for 17k or less, she’s mine. 2015 sounds about right.
There’s one out there right now with 10k miles on it. But all ‘used’ Volts are now > $40k. That will change by 2015 for sure!
+6
Jul 29th, 2011 (4:25 pm)It has to bother the Leaf owner. One friend can not drive his Leaf on Friday, not enough range for social meetings. The work place won’t let him charge. Not enough public charge stations makes his purchase good for 4 work days of commuting and some local shopping.
One suggested activity is for drivers of ICE vehicles to reset the odometer each morning and note the mileage at the end of the day. After a few weeks it should be clear what EV range is necessary for maximum satisfaction.
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (4:28 pm)This is pretty much what i’m waiting for. The question is, can I take delivery before the end of 2011 to get my tax refund in 2012. Or can does it just have to be delivered before the end of the filing deadline? The forms are pretty vague.
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (4:29 pm)“We will produce 16,000 Volts in calendar year 2011 – 12,000 of which will be 2012 model years.”
So that means they need to average over 2000/month to get 12,000 out this year. That may be tough w/all the holidays coming.
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (4:31 pm)Google maps is useful too. I’ve used it for biking before, but no reason you couldn’t tally up your daily driving (in case you forgot to hit the trip)
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (4:43 pm)
Jul 29th, 2011 (4:51 pm)The Pip can’t do the same as the regular Prius —It weighs more. The partial derivative on the effect of wt is almost 1 to 1 on a percentage basis.
What is the percent increase in wt of the PiP over the regular Prius??
Jul 29th, 2011 (4:54 pm)Loboc,
I also have been thinking about a used one but can’t wait till 2015. Where is the best place to find used Volts now??
-4
Jul 29th, 2011 (5:30 pm)It has a better battery-pack and operates at higher tolerances.
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (5:39 pm)I contend that Ford doesn’t have a Volt equivalent, a Prius equivalent maybe. Could this be the first time in history, that a Ford-Chevy same-class comparison will be an apples and oranges thing?
+8
Jul 29th, 2011 (5:47 pm)The best news all day today —DOUBLES the current EPA requirement in only 14 years!!!
/It virtually guarantees the automotive industry will have to design/produce EREVs, PHEVs, EVs, etc!
Jul 29th, 2011 (7:10 pm)Produce the Volt in EU or Asia … there’s a laugh.
These countries make a living keeping the US and others out while dumping governent subsidized products all over the world mostly in the US.
… you think $39,995 is a lot… Try to buy a Volt in the EU or Asia….. they put huge tariffs on our produccts … they would laugh at you if you suggested that they give GM $7500 for every Volt they sell in these places….and in China the only way you can built a plant is to give away half the ownership of the plant to the Chinese government.
Jul 29th, 2011 (7:11 pm)As I understand it the paperwork has to be completed before the end of the year. This means you have to have VIN assigned and payment is made. If you finance, you could be obligated to make payments before you take delivery.
+3
Jul 29th, 2011 (7:13 pm)Oh, darn! GM is losing sales to … GM! I wonder if they’ll drive themselves bankrupt with all these lost sales … ummm, errrr, what?
Jul 29th, 2011 (7:23 pm)I am also one that’s waiting for MyLink before ordering. November sounds good though, that’s also supposedly when GM Card earnings would become redeemable for the Volt, another thing I’m waiting for.
-10
Jul 29th, 2011 (7:48 pm)(click to show comment)
Jul 29th, 2011 (7:55 pm)DonC,
.. reliable as the Prius?
Every Prius owner I know of could not keep the car for more than 8 years because of battery costs… that is not reliable in my book.
.. the Volt battery is warranteed for 8 years and after that if the battery maybe you will only get 20 or 30 miles per charge .. the performance of the car will not affected by a low battery… unlike the Prius which is affected by a low battery.
My Buick is 10 years old 101Kmiles and still runs and looks like new… total repairs other then normal wear items like brakes … $350 total for two front end bushings which were “out of spec” .. I’ve gotten the car inspected and all repairs at the dealer. Original exhaust.. no rust… that is what I call reliable… I would expect the volt is the same quality as my Buicks.
I’m trying to hold out for a CUV version of the Volt…. a Buick CUV version would be a done deal for me…. or even a Pontiac performance CUV version…
Yes I think GM should bring back Pontiac as the performance division.
Jul 29th, 2011 (8:00 pm)Very good comment…
Jul 29th, 2011 (8:04 pm)How does this relate to a car that runs on Natural Gas?
Here in PA they are drilling thousands of Natural gas wells … and even opening Natural Gas stations in our area… a car running on natural gas puts out very little to no pollution… and the car engine is much cleaner needing less oil changes.
Jul 29th, 2011 (8:10 pm)George you asked about the increase in weight for the PiP, and its complicated. I have read a lot of people saying it would be just 200 to 230 pounds more, but C&D and MT said it would be 300 or 330 pounds more, respectively. I think 300 pounds more is the likely answer.
What I REALLY want to know is, which current Prius model is the PiP going to be “$3k to $5k more than”? That depends on what your definition of the “standard” Prius is. The base model, or the ones that they actually sell in the real world. I think the PiP is going to cost $5k more than the regular Prius III, or $5k more than $24.5k. Look at what the Toyo reps have been saying this year about the $3k-$5k increase, it is getting soft soaped but it looks like the increase in the yen has had an adverse affect on the price of the PiP. $29.5k less the tax credit of $2.9k is a PiP of $26.6k. The Volt is $40k less $7.5k or $32.5k. So for $6k you get 38 miles of AER vs. 13 miles of blended electric/gas miles, drives more like a real car, is faster, has near luxury level interior, (it is no Mercedes, but compared to a Prius it is very impressive) and the Volt is actually a cool car to be seen in.
But if you want the cheapest car to operate, there is no question, a 3 year old Prius will beat a new Volt on cost per mile like a rented mule.
John may think that the PiP will get the same mpg as the regular Prius after the battery empties, but CR says that the PiP will get around 29/47 for a combined 40 mpg and with a city mpg of 29 after the battery empties it doesn’t sound good for Toyota, but CR only got 34 mpg in the city with their regular Prius, and their numbers are coming from their own converted Prius, and maybe they are closet drag racers or something. Personally, I think the PiP will see a 5-10% loss in CS city mpg due to the increase in weight, less on the highway. Still very impressive numbers, especially since many of the miles in the PiP will be in CD mode, albeit not nearly as many as in a Volt.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/past-road-test/plug-in-prius/overview/plug-in-prius-ov.htm
George S. Bower,
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (8:25 pm)I know nothing of it. Is he positive? Did someone say he was banned? Who, if so?
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (8:31 pm)Ziv,
Ziv quote:
“John may think that the PiP will get the same mpg as the regular Prius after the battery empties, but CR says that the PiP will get around 29/47″
That makes sense the in town mileage would suffer because of the wt. but I wouldn’t guess that much I will think about that.
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (8:38 pm)Ziv,
Ziv, based on the 1 to one rule on the partial I would say that 10% reduction would be the max. but who knows we will have to wait on the EPA ratings.
Jul 29th, 2011 (8:47 pm)When I login I get this interesting message …
Is there some forum rule that bans people for posting links to “rival” forums like MNL ? Can’t think of any other reason …
Jul 29th, 2011 (8:49 pm)pj, I will have to go look it up but just the switch from gasoline to NG is around 10-15 % less co2.
+2
Jul 29th, 2011 (9:23 pm)Obviously, with your logic, the Volt has a superior battery pack. Isn’t that what this forum is about: the Superior Vehicle?
The Volt is the best and it is American! Are you American? I am!!
If you keep defending the Prius, I doubt you are…
Raymond
Jul 29th, 2011 (9:30 pm)I am sorry to remind you that all ICE vehicles pollute the air. If you can hold your mouth to a Natural Gas powered ICE’s tailpipe and breath that exhaust without dying, that I will believe that statement. Until then, only EVs put out no pollution.
Raymond
+1
Jul 29th, 2011 (9:30 pm)That is the first I’ve heard of that. I’m sure we can find people on priuschat who have kep the ar after 8 years.
For a car that is quite complicated I think Prius has been a very reliable car.
Jul 29th, 2011 (9:32 pm)1961 Corvette Colors were: Tuxedo Black – 1,340 produced; Ermine White – 3,178 produced; Roman Red – 1,794 produced; Sateen Silver – 747 produced; Jewel Blue – 855 produced; Fawn Beige – 1,363 produced; Honduras Maroon – 1,645 produced.
How many 2011 Volts were produced?
=D-Volt
+2
Jul 29th, 2011 (9:35 pm)Not sure why it has to bother someone like me – even if I had a regulat drive to a place farther than, say, 40 miles away. My wife would be more than happy to swap the ICE for Leaf.
As long as the family has 2 or more cars and the commutes are within the EV range, a BEV is a no-brainer.
Jul 29th, 2011 (9:44 pm)I also have heard this from someone who used to post here often. Posting links to Leaf, Tesla, CleanMPG, and other Volt forums is really a necessary form of communication. Banning it HURTS GM-Volt.com and it’s user base.
GSP
-2
Jul 29th, 2011 (10:17 pm)Since I have already driven a PHV for a few days, there is no assuming. I witnessed it firsthand, from behind the wheel.
+2
Jul 29th, 2011 (11:34 pm)This post really lifted my spirits, after a long, arduous day…
+1
Yeah, yeah, I know, I’m a bad person… (but I still LOLed).
+2
Jul 30th, 2011 (12:18 am)1) I don’t think you know the profit margins on Cruze’s
2) Cruze sales still bring attention to GM, and if its a great product, will change peoples minds about GM, thus contributing to Volt sales
3) The Cruze ECO gets 42mpg HWY. I think they are ahead of the CAFE curve.
Jul 30th, 2011 (12:46 am)I haven’t found any that are less than a new one. Even with 10k on the clock! It ‘s a supply/demand thing.
+2
Jul 30th, 2011 (1:01 am)Jeff Cobb,
No criticism intended on the wording, it’s all aimed at GM not providing Volts straight away, and in quantities allowing all of us to enjoy them. I just want to be able to buy an electric car that does what the Volt can do.
+1
Jul 30th, 2011 (1:03 am)pjkPA,
if they can be manufactured locally in Australia to meet the demand here, there’s 10 to 15k off the price tag already buy saving on shipping and import duties.
Jul 30th, 2011 (7:58 am)Xiaowei1,
Thanks for the good info Xiaoweil!
Good to hear we have a trading partner instead of a one way deal.
I have first cousins in Australia… would be nice to visit some day.
I’ve heard many nice things about Australia from relatives who have visited.
Thanks!
Jul 30th, 2011 (8:12 am)Raymondjram,
Well… let me remind you even EVs do put out some pollution in one way or another.. heat ….fumes from the batteries or from producing batteries… battery disposal .. etc.
I just think that instead of using gasoline … natural gas is a good alternative until we can find a cleaner energy source for the electric drive…. using natural gas to run the ICE generator in the Volt would be a good thing I think.
+5
Jul 30th, 2011 (9:18 am)If you rebreathe into a paper bag, you can’t survive on your own exhaust either. That’s what we got plants for.
-5
Jul 30th, 2011 (9:28 am)As long as profit is being made, it shouldn’t matter how much. Remember that it was the highest profit vehicles that got GM into trouble before.
.
A reverse halo, eh? Better read comments on forums. Many see this Volt as too expensive and simply choose to purchase a Cruze instead.
.
The automatic, which is what the majority actually buy delivers 26 city, giving a combined estimate of just 31. The non-ECO model, which is the more popular model common delivers 30 combined.
-9
Jul 30th, 2011 (9:41 am)This topic of production can only be discussed if it is in a cheerleading fashion?
We wouldn’t want to upset the balance by addressing business need, right?
One size does not fit all and time is not in abundance. Two-Mode was also too expensive and has struggled to deliver improvement. eAssist is now being positioned to fill some of the void Volt has left, potentially taking away even more sales. Unless you want to discuss changes another model of Volt needs to embrace to expand market, what is the point of the technology?
Jul 30th, 2011 (10:12 am)Yeh but where (what websites etc) have you found are best for finding the used ones.
+12
Jul 30th, 2011 (10:37 am)I haven’t chimed in for a while…. but:
1) 5,000 Volts per month is still not close to meeting demand. This car impresses 100% of those who drive it, and is proving every day in the real world to save its drivers SIGNIFICANTLY in terms of overall operating costs. Yes, the price of the car will have to come down, but even at current pricing, I believe natural demand is higher than 5,000 per month in the US alone. Chevy has about 3,400 dealers in the US – at 5,000 per month that is not even 1.5 cars per dealer. At my store, without really trying to sell the VOLT, we have 11 orders in with deposits and over 25 more customers on a very strong waiting list. If we actually began trying to sell the VOLT to prospective customers, we could easily sell 10+ per month. So if only 800 of the 3,400 Chevy dealers are in strong EV markets, and they sell 10 Volts per month, that is 8,000 cars. Add just one VOLT per month from the remaining dealers, and you are over 10,000 cars per month. Build the VOLT and the sales will come….
2) With a new 54.5 MPG average by 2025, it is absolutely clear that the VOLTEC powertrain is a major factor moving forward. Great news for those looking to see this technolgy in other configurations like an MPV, Small Business Cargo Van, and maybe even sports coupe.
3) Everyone on this site should be cheering for any lost VOLT sale to go to the Cruze or other GM vehicle. GM needs other current product lines to be successful in order to continue funding EV and VOLTEC development. If they currently make more money selling a Cruze than a VOLT, then selling more Cruze’s actually increases the likelihood that VOLT pricing will drop sooner rather than later. Think about it….
-4
Jul 30th, 2011 (11:19 am)They haven’t been receptive to discussion of that nature, and I would very much like to know how a Volt priced for middle-market would be configured.
Business logic unfortunately isn’t logical either. Market pressure often pushes in directions that aren’t sensible like that likelihood above.
eAssist continues to be invested in too. Seeing it offered on Cruze isn’t that much of a jump, especially with it already targeted for Malibu.
+2
Jul 30th, 2011 (11:21 am)LeoK,
Good set of numbers Leo.
We all hope the price comes down on the Volt.
but will it really??
I really don’t think so. Seems to me as production costs (battery) come down GM will pocket the difference and actually make some money on the car instead of breaking even.
It would be an interesting betting pool!!!
+1
Jul 30th, 2011 (11:25 am)nasaman,
The problem I see is if we elect politicians who eliminate any government mandated fuel improvements. I want to put solar panels on my house and get a Volt, but I can not afford to do both at once so I am going to opt for the Volt.
Jul 30th, 2011 (11:27 am)That’s not a bad idea for the Cruze eAssist.
as far as a cheaper volt goes seems to me that a pure electric version would be the logical choice since the battery TMS is already engineered and done.
That reminds me John. What TMS does the PiP use.???
Jul 30th, 2011 (11:31 am)No that doesn’t make much sense – unless you are more interested in GM than Plug-In movement.
What we need are people buying plug-ins as much as possible. That is the only way plug-ins will become commonplace.
I understand GM needs to be financially strong to be able to make & sell Volts – but that is true for other manufacturers making plg-ins too.
+1
Jul 30th, 2011 (11:37 am)Yes, there is pollution from every modern civilization economic activity. Only ones not using fossil fuels are the people deep in the jungles of Amazon or Andamans.
There is a big question mark about source of NG and how that affects drinking water supplies. Regulation needs to be a lot tighter and the industry a lot more transparent than it is now before we can seriously consider NG as a safer fuel source.
+1
Jul 30th, 2011 (11:56 am)True Volt is a different type than Prius PHV. But they are targeting the same people and since PHV will be cheaper (I think) without compromising on convinience, the demand would be more.
Thanks Don for bringing this to Jeff’s notice.
Jul 30th, 2011 (12:12 pm)And what you breath out is a pollutant?
What makes plants grow is a pollutant?
Natural gas is one of the best portable energy sources we’ve got to displace gasoline… emits less toxic and particulate pollution than gasoline , car engines will last longer and oil will need changed less.
Jul 30th, 2011 (12:24 pm)I won’t get into that discussion about CO2, global warming etc….but whether you like it or not CO2 emissions are calculated and compared.
I looked up the effect of switching to natural gas from gasoline and the effect is much stronger than I remembered —–it reduces CO2 by 30%.
+3
Jul 30th, 2011 (1:38 pm)It may be a rather minor point, but humans have been using organic fuels like wood or peat since fire was discovered to cook & keep warm. In fact, historians have found that the Los Angeles basin has had smog dating back many centuries. The only residents of the geographic area now known as “LA”, ancient natives preceding even the Spanish missionaries, called it the “land of the smokes” …hundreds of years ago, the area’s natural fog mixed with the smoke of indian campfires as smog.
Jul 30th, 2011 (3:44 pm)The most important part is the one about fossil fuels. That is CO2 stored over millions of years released all at once into the atmosphere in a matter of a few 100 years.
Ofcourse, 19th/20th century humans are not the only ones to degrade environment. Wherever humans went in the last 10K years, they have destroyed the environment. But they have also developed in many cases sustainable practices that have lasted 1,000s of years like in New Guinea.
Jul 30th, 2011 (5:44 pm)I bought my last two cars from ads on autotraderdotcom. There are many others such as carsdotcom.
I like autotrader because of the search tools that send you email when it gets a hit.
Jul 30th, 2011 (5:49 pm)Unlike our illustrious EPA, I don’t consider CO2 to be a pollutant. It’s a naturally occurring gas unlike nitrous and sulpher oxides.
However, if the CO2 bandwagon causes people to reduce other pollutants the I’m good with that.
Jul 30th, 2011 (6:04 pm)The atmosphere is pretty darned big, and cars, trucks and planes, are pretty darned small. Here at ground level, the problem of emission, looks a lot bigger than it really is. JMHO
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c25/bboaze/golden-gate-bridge.jpg
Jul 30th, 2011 (6:09 pm)George S. Bower,
I won’t get into that discussion about CO2, global warming etc….but whether you like it or not CO2 emissions are calculated and compared.
One thing I’ve learned while engineering for 40 years is that liars figure and figures lie.
+4
Jul 30th, 2011 (6:18 pm)Anything that changes the composition of the air with potentially destructive consequences is a pollutant. Yes. We “breathe out” carbon dioxide. The difference between exhaling and using fossil fuels is that the carbon in the carbon dioxide we breathe out is part of a closed system. We get that carbon from the food we eat. So it’s carbon that’s been absorbed from the atmosphere relatively recently. There’s no net addition of carbon to the atmosphere. When we burn fossil fuels, we’re returning the atmosphere to the same level of CO2 we had in, say, the Carboniferous or Triassic. That would probably be great for the dinosaurs if they were still around…
As far as natural gas, unfortunately, hydrofrakking contaminates groundwater. Which is a very nonrenewable resource.
+1
Jul 30th, 2011 (6:24 pm)Very refreshing to hear good old common sense… something very lacking in our media today…
Thank you LeoK!!
Jul 30th, 2011 (7:35 pm)LauraM,
I live in western pa where most of the hydrofrakking is going on… they have drilled over a thousand wells in the last couple years in our area… I’ve heard of very little accidents.. but I have seen many benefits coming to our area… thousands of jobs.. billions in revenue for this area..
I’ve heard of many farmers who would have lost the family farm being saved by this income.
This contaminating of the water is a scar tatic and many lawyers are also getting rich too.
It’s funny that people who have no problem putting tons of chemicals on their lawns think any business making money is contaminating our enviroment.
The vast majority of PA has been undermined by coal extraction… but drilling a 6″ hole two miles below the coal line is somehow going to contaminate our water.
The water that is used is pumped out and treated. We have to make sure these people follow proper procedures but gas wells are not a big evil.
Gas wells in western PA is one of the only bright spots in our economy…and from what I see has been done properly… there certainly are enough lawyers lurking and waiting for someone to make the smallest mistake.
+1
Jul 30th, 2011 (7:35 pm)I don’t really consider it a Volt vs Leaf competition. It is electric cars vs ICE cars. If electric cars, any electric cars, sell well then we all win.
Since only 3900+ were made the first model year, it’s looking more and more like my #135, which I LEASED, is likely a collector’s item. Now I just have to figure out how to buy it at a reasonable price after 2.5 more years. Hmmm …
silently motoring …
-bookdabook
+1
Jul 30th, 2011 (8:50 pm)http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/atmos.html
+1
Jul 30th, 2011 (8:53 pm)Laura,
I agree w/ pj.
The water table and the gas are 100′s of feet apart. The gas companies will figure out how to seal the leaks…nothing is perfect.
NG is our ticket to getting off middle east oil
We have tons of it and it is clean burning.
GE has Combined Cycle Natural Gas plants (CCNG)that have a 60% conversion efficiency so CO2 is very low.
I think all this paranoia is created by the WSJ and all their sensationalistic articles about fracking!!!
+1
Jul 30th, 2011 (9:18 pm)And, if I might add, all their sensationalistic articles about Nuclear power.
GSB
Jul 30th, 2011 (9:37 pm)pj quote:
“One thing I’ve learned while engineering for 40 years is that liars figure and figures lie.”
Yeh, good one, I remember that one from : nineteen “O” eight also, but my point remains the same:
You still need to be able to discuss the numbers! and the numbers support NG WRT CO2 by a 30% margin.
Seems like if you were pro NG you would use this as positive for your discussion instead of arguing against it!!!
It just seems illogical.
+1
Jul 31st, 2011 (12:59 am)No. Not every business that makes money contaminates our environment. And even those that do contaminate it to some degree need to be allowed to operate. It’s a balancing act.
As far as chemicals on lawns–I live in the city in an apartment. No lawn. (Those chemicals are one of the reasons why city living is so much more ecofriendly than suburbia.)
No one is saying that coal extraction is eco friendly! And it’s what seeps through that hole that’s the problem. You’re right though that we have to choose between the two. And we should have a non biased study that evaluates risk. Unfortunately, no one seems competent to perform that type of study anymore. We’re in a position in this country where absolutely no one is trustworthy. And that’s an issue that goes well beyond hydrofrakking…
Well, I hope you’re right about them being done properly…We do need a bridge fuel…After the BP disaster, I’m not exactly inclined to trust these companies based on their say so…
Jul 31st, 2011 (1:09 am)The Wall Street Journal? Admittedly, I don’t read it cover to cover, but I haven’t read any negative articles there on hydraulic fracturing or nuclear power. They are very pro nuclear power from everything I’ve read…
I agree with you that nothing is perfect. But there have been leaks. We need proof that this can and will be done safely before any massive expansion.
Jul 31st, 2011 (5:22 am)Imagine how small cars would be at that scale!
+7
Jul 31st, 2011 (7:19 am)My last 7500 miles in Volt #1506 used 15 gallons of gasoline. Now I’m not saying the fuel economy is better than Prius but 500 MPG is pretty good along with 30 KWH per 100 miles. 90 percent of my miles last month were electric. Now thats real savings and maintenance costs for the first 10,000 miles on my Volt $0. I will rotate my tires next week. I will change my oil next year. When comparing the lifetime cost of ICE to the Volt a big number no-one seems to ad is the maintenance costs.
I love my electric car.
Take Care, TED
Jul 31st, 2011 (8:27 am)jeffhre,
You must be single. If it were up to me I would already have driven to Michigan to buy one in Ohio, I have to justify expenses with the wife.
Jul 31st, 2011 (10:30 am)Laura,
It’s too late the huge expansion is already happening. The oil companies have already decided that is the direction we are going. Just google natural gas wells in the US you will be shocked/ amazed.
Jul 31st, 2011 (12:29 pm)All politics and environmental debates aside, I think most everyone on this page agrees with Ted!
WVhybrid
I love my Red Volt
Jul 31st, 2011 (1:16 pm)My post 96 wasn’t very good… not clear..
What I was trying to say was that first you thought you remembered 10 to 15% then found it was 30%… I was just pointing out that your first numbers were not right .. and that you have to watch out when numbers are used.. wasn’t a very clear post.
Anyway … I agree .. I think NG is the way to go for now.. as we continue to explore other sources of energy.
Jul 31st, 2011 (1:30 pm)LauraM,
You say you live in the city… do you know the miles of gas piping going through the city?
Underground above ground.. cities have many miles of NG piping.
These companies have been drilling NG gas wells for over 60 years… I would say this in not a new thing and by now the process has been refined. we probably have to worry more about gas lines in our cities that have gas lines that are 100 years old. I know one thing for sure is that these companies have every news staion and a ton of lawyers hired by “enviromentalists” just chomping at the bit for them to do something wrong… so far all I’ve seen very little and I do hope that they are kept in line and not unrealistically put out of business like we did to nuclear.
Jul 31st, 2011 (1:35 pm)Do you notice when you “google” .. CHEVY VOLT the no. 1 response is a Nissan Leaf site… is this some kind of hacking? doesn’t seem right.
Jul 31st, 2011 (1:43 pm)Don’t start about the “environmentalists”.
Quite frankly I think the WSJ has done more harm to NG and Nuclear than “environmentalists”…..and, if you haven’t noticed, they are some what of a “conservative” paper.
Jul 31st, 2011 (3:51 pm)Not for me – I see http://www.chevrolet.com/Volt as the first site (both sponsored and others). May be google is doing some regional ranking ?
Jul 31st, 2011 (3:59 pm)You might want to open your eyes and not dismiss everything as a scare tactic. First we need to regulate the chemicals that can be poured down into the ground (why is that, and that alone is exempt ? An exemption given in the heydays of Dick Cheney).
Second, you are absolutely right about tons of pestisticides used by suburban lawns. I’ve a running battle with my HOA about it – I refuse to use pesticides.
Jul 31st, 2011 (5:27 pm)If the Volt was selling like crazy they would need to get the price down as low as $20,000 – $25,000 dollars at starting price and in my own opinion if they could get like a staggering 500,000 cars out in the market that would be more like it! Not to be offensive or anything but 60,000 just doesn’t cut it 60,000 is like the population of a mid size city but that’s it come on GM be aggressive and believe in yourselves not the other way around! or that’s roughly 41,667 a month or 500,004 a year just saying everybody. though that’s little over 500,000 but not bad at all.
Jul 31st, 2011 (5:32 pm)My company is now shipping fracking equipment to China. So good for the trade deficit (until they learn to copy it).
Jul 31st, 2011 (6:30 pm)I was surprised when GM’s Dan Akerson said during an interview on CNN this morning (7/31) that “…GM will be introducing ‘duel fuel’ vehicles that run on either gasoline OR on NG”!!!
/Akerson also said in this same interview that “the industry would be helped, not hurt, if consumers paid substantially higher gas taxes ($1.00/gal?)”
//Akerson is even smarter —and more progressive— than I had previously thought!
Jul 31st, 2011 (8:03 pm)Sean,
This is exactly what the government of China has planned. Cheap EV’s and a country that is powered more and more by big nuclear plants. They have a shootoff going between about 3 different designs plus are putting in lots of tried and trued Gen 2 Nukes w/ all the improvements (like hardened generators and cooling systems that can run w/o grid.).
If our country got off it’s butt, we could do the same only we can add lot’s of CCNG plants to run on our abundant supplies of natural gas.
In that way we could almost become energy independent.!!
Jul 31st, 2011 (8:06 pm)George S. Bower,
and we would drop our emissions by a huge amount.
Jul 31st, 2011 (8:13 pm)A volt in CS mode running on natural gas emits 30% less CO2 than on gasoline (at least that’s how I calculated it w/ the help of a Pratt and Whitney handbook—but I could be wrong). and we have tons of it and it is cost effective.
We need this fuel as a method to insure our energy indepence.
-1
Jul 31st, 2011 (10:41 pm)Now that GM has clarified how they count (by calendar year), and they have said 2011 production will be 10k, how much production can we anticipate for the remainder of 2011 ? IIRC they made around 500 – 1000 cars in 2010, and 4k total through June, so 3000 – 3500 of the 2011 run have been made, and about 6500 – 7000 cars remain for the last 5 months, or about 1300 – 1400 cars a month. For comparison I gather Nissan is now producing 4000 – 5000 LEAFS a month at the Oppoma plant in Japan, and the US plant is opening in 2012 I think.
If GM thinks demand exists, why the ongoing meagre output ?
-1
Jul 31st, 2011 (10:58 pm)Toyota has not said that 2012 PiP production will be 16k, they have predicted US sales of at least 16k vehicles. Since the car goes on sale sometime in June 2012, they are predicting about 2500 sales a month in the US for the first months after launch. Not too bad, if compared to the Volt 500 cars a month for its first 9 months after launch.
Personally, I am unsure how well the PiP will sell. I do think that the 13-14 AER range is only an issue for detractors looking for a reason to bash the car, but will not bother the people who buy the car for its intended purpose: to provide a very nice incremental bump to ‘MPG.’ To see why, lets start from the famed ’40 miles a day’ commute of 75% of Americans mantra that was so popular in this forum. For that theoretical person, instead of consuming 0.8 gallons in a Prius at 50 mpg, they will consume about 0.5 gallons of fuel for a calculated 80 mpg.
That is a great incremental MPG improvement if the price differential is not high. Latest rumors suggest around $3k more for the MPG upgrade after tax credit. The part I am unsure about is whether consumers will accept the daily plug-in requirement to get the improved MPG. Somewhat perversely, the car might appeal most to cold winter drivers who want a conditioned cabin in the winter.
Jul 31st, 2011 (11:09 pm)I think your number are off a bit. GM is building 16k total for 2011 year of which 10k are for the US. Assuming they have built ~4k they have to build around 2.3k a month. The question with both of these car especially the Leaf will be at what point with the demand flatten. It doesn’t matter how many you build, it’s how many people buy. The last thing you want to do is saturate the market.
Aug 1st, 2011 (5:54 am)Hey, speak for yourself, I want an unsold Leaf battery for a pontoon boat I’d like to modify.